therunner

But now they are vulnerable to being killed, like Phendorana was. If you could attack them in the Shard form directly is a question, but in principle you could catch them whilst forming. This makes usage of them against anyone wielding anti-Light much riskier, and forces a need for backup. You can treat steel armor with Tension/Cohesion to upgrade it further, so still applicable? Except that they can stab Mistborn in the jugular and kill them you mean? Mistborn cannot grapple freely, they need to maintain contact to continue to leech, which will take a couple of seconds at least. During that time their grappling options are limited, whereas all Radiant has to do is stab them in a vital spot. You literally just associated Feruchemy to Shards. I did not mean that one Invested Art corresponds to one shard, only that proper Invested Arts require Shard (or more). Fabrials can use non-Radiant spren, which predate arrival of Shards to Roshar. Those spren are tied to Shard only in the sense that every single piece of Investiture is tied to some Shard, and Rosharan are highly of Honor and Cultivation. Sapience has no bearing on being animal or not. Humans are animals. Why would no spren be there? There were spren there prior to arrival of Shards, why would they suddenly vanish? Only higher spren were actively formed by Honor + Cultivation (and some by Odium), the rest is naturally occurring, and predates both arrival of Shards and even Shattering. It is magic system only from our perspective, in-world it is just evolutionary adaptation. Would you call electric eels magic simply because they harness a naturally occurring phenomenon to their advantage? Because greatshells and singers do literally the exact same thing. Yeah, I think they would have a lot of issues with her practicing hemalurgy, it is the most monstrous Invested Art there is (at the moment). And even forgers are a bit Invested and channel Investiture when Forging to the stamps + they could Forge themselves, so again they would have issue with that. Dawnshards are an issue when combined with Investiture, where the most relevant one to Rysn is surgebinding (and also the most powerful one), so of course they will warn her of that. They did not tell her to not pickup Honorblades either, yet that does not mean that would not be similarly disastrous. I still disagree, non-surge fabrials are only tools just based along different principles than our own. They don't give user additional Invested abilities, they are just tools with various functions, like a gun, or GPS or a phone are. In contrast Medallions do give user access to additional Invested abilities, like Surge fabrials or Honorblades do, and so I feel there must be a distinction between the two cases. Otherwise in Era 3 we will get to point where Mistborn can use phones, GPS and machine guns, but Radiants are stuck with their Surges and knives because all of their tech will be fabrial based, and per your argument we cannot consider that as it is somehow equal to Medallions.

If the current period we are at is era 2, then we have to extrapolate equipment of Radiants, since Era 2 happens in the 15 year gap between book 5 and book 6. In that case assuming Radiants slightly upgrade their equipment is completely justifiable. Radiants carrying some basic weapons on them to be able to counter anti-Light invested weapons is fair assumption, since now Shardblades are no longer indestructible. Similarly, carrying at least basic armor (possibly treated via Tension/Cohesion to make it superior) to hinder Raysium based weaponry is also only common sense. Some basic fabrials are more speculative, and so I have not actually used them in any argument, however I feel you have double standards when you allow for Mistborn to have guns and specialized aluminum daggers, but only begrudgingly allow for Radiant to carry even a simple knife. I will leave out surge fabrials, as those are distincing, however I would say that Surge Fabrials could fall into scope of Radiancy, in that a Radiant could ask their spren to temporarily form a Surge Fabrial. If that is a way to get them, then Surge Fabrials are simply another facet of Radiancy, so they are still distinct from Medallions, which have nothing to do with Allomancy. For the regular fabrials, they can be explained using Cosmere physics without appealing to any specific Shard, so I would say they are not Invested Art per se. Creation of fabrial requires trapping of a spren (or other cognitive entity) near a gemstone (typically by attracting them with something they like, e.g. heat for flamespren) and then quickly removing Light from gemstone (via tuning forks or Larkin) where the resulting pressure differential sucks the spren into a gemstone. Then you create a metal wire frame defining it's functionality (although the type of gemstone and spren also plays a role). Explaining functionality is difficult, simply because we don't know (and indeed Cosmere most likely does not have) any fully fixed underlying principles from which it could be derived. Fabrials seem to function along some measure of Cognitive principles, in that 'like draws like' for attractors for example, or detecting Investiture pulses for alerters. Currently it is not known why different gemstones are better suited for specific tasks, nor is there explanation for why different metals cause different effects. You can see that at every step of the way, the artifabrian did not need to posses any Invested abilities, and neither did spren form any bond with the gemstone. Indeed the entire process could be feasibly automated, potentially the only step requiring Intent was the one with tuning forks, however that can be replaced by Larkin, who are animals. The reason why I don't consider fabrials distinct magic system on the level of Feruchemy or Hemalurgy is simple, fabrials are not tied to a specific Shard. If all the Shards left Roshar, spren would still be there, so would Gemstones and most likely also a kind of Light (as the Highstorms predate arrival of Shards), so you could continue building fabrials, only missing out on those that require higher spren (so only Half-shards, from the classical fabrials). So I would argue fabrials are not a kind of Invested Art, they are simply technology that operates on Cosmere principles instead of our own. Main evidence of this is that Sel has a kind of alerter fabrial few centuries prior to Roshar, which is clear evidence of fabrial principles being general and not specific. Utilizing Investiture does not make for Invested Art, as Investiture is part of the universe of Cosmere same way as matter is. Would you say that Greatshells posses Invested arts, or that Singer ability to change forms is magic system? Using that reasoning on Scadrial we have three Invested Arts that are Shard dependent (Allomancy, Feruchemy, Hemalurgy) and so far Medallions require Feruchemists to create (and maybe Hemalurgy depending on what Excisor is). On Roshar we have seen three-ish Invested Arts that are Shard dependent (Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Old Magic), and regular fabrials can be created without appealing to none of them. EDIT: Reading it now it can be a bit rambling, so I will try to do short summary. Basically I differentiate between Invested Arts and 'ordinary' magic. Ordinary magic is everything using Investiture (so Larkin, greatshells, Highstorm, Aimians, usage of silver, fabrials, etc.) however I see those as distinct from proper Invested Arts, which require Shard to function (i.e. Metallic Arts, Surgebinding, Old Magic, Voidbinding). Now that we have Dawnshard we can have sort of test, would the person leveraging that magic be an issue due to possesing Dawnshard? We know that Dawnshard+Invested art = potentially cataclysmic stuff, yet Aimians have no issue with Rysn using fabrials, however equipping Rysn with medallion would be very bad (as she would now have command of Invested Art). Hence fabrials are not magic system in the same way Radiancy or Allomancy are, but Medallions should count as Invested Art. Rosharan analog of Medallions would be Honorblades and not regular fabrials, in that both are mechanical means of accessing some Invested Art, in one case Metallic Arts, in the other Surgebinding.

To that I would point out two things From Allomancers we have seen only mistings with guns, not mistborn (for obvious reasons). And misting with gun is much weaker. While Surge Fabrials are basically extinct, Mistborn are fully extinct at the moment. So, if we can consider Mistborn with a gun, then we can equally well consider Radiant with Surge Fabrial (actually it is even more plausiable). Sure, we could. However, I would point out there is one major difference between fabrials and medallions. Creation of medallion requires a person with whole another magical system distinct from Allomancy, that being Feruchemy. Hence inclusion of medallions strays outside of discussion of 'Allomancers vs Radiants'. By contract, fabrial creation can be done by anyone on Roshar with requisite knowledge, and does not require any other magic system. In that sense fabrial are much closer to technology like guns than to medallions, in that they only exploit 'physical' laws and specifics of local ecology, instead of exploiting specific magic systems. Indeed, we have even seen Selish equivalent of fabrials, alerter in Secret History. Closer to fabrials is Hemalurgy, in that it does not require initiation only knowledge of what to do and Intent, however most potent application of Hemalurgy (stealing other Invested abilities) is still dependent on existence of other magic systems. And again, Hemalurgy is wholly separate Invested Art, which fabrial technology are not.

I see your point, however personally I will stick to the usual explanations, that is also supported by Brandon's notes, i.e. that Vin really is that good. I respect the differing opinion, but personally I will stick with what is 'known'. I see what you are getting at, however I still disagree. In fight a couple of seconds is 'eternity', it will give great advantage. I agree that there is a limit where the atium user could be overwhelmed, however since we don't know how far they can see, I dare not guess. At the moment I think that you would need like ~7-8 people, and there you get into the issue that they will be getting in each other's way I agree with the principle of overwhelming the user, but think that atium users see too far for it to work effectively. If they saw only 1-2 seconds, I could see it working with maybe 4 people at least, but I think they see further. In the end I don't think we can convince the other, as we don't have enough solid information on how far atium users see, how it impacts their reflex and so forth.

Well, this thread got quite polarized in the last 24 hours. And neither is Radiant standing in one place to let Mistborn maneuver like that. Also, need I remind you that from the multitude of Mistborn we have seen, only Kelsier pulled that feat off. I agree that it is learnable skill, but that does not mean any Mistborn will be able to learn it. Even Vin did not, despite also being quite talented (see horseshoe trick). We don't know modern day Mistborn equipment because there are no modern day Mistborn. The very setup requires assuming Mistborn even exist in the first place. Again, if you can assume Mistborn update their load out, we can assume Radiant do too. Fabrials that could be combat used are less then one year old, so experimental at RoW stage, give it a couple of years (e.g. 10-15 till Era 2) and they will be using some Fabrials as part of load out. It could be backup painrials (either for offense or for staving off shock), half-shard armor (if Spren are willing)/Tension-treated armor for better defense for those below 4th Oath, as examples of simple improvements to their equipment they would be silly not to take advantage of. My statements are at worse equally speculative to yours, so I don't understand why you have such an issue with them. Windrunners are far more maneuverable, unlike Mistborn they can accelerate/decelerate in arbitrary direction with some training (and we do see squires doing it in Oathbringer) learn to use partial lashings for more sensitive control instinctively sculpt air with body (and most likely some small usage of surges) to easily reorient in air, for even finer control (using air resistance for deceleration and banking) Mistborn cannot even use less strength then a burn (see WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103/#e1037), can only fractionally go between burn and flare, and most people cannot even do that. The only way they could moderate the strength is with having multiple anchors of varying 'strength' to push on, so completely at the mercy of terrain. Not to mention they have no way to easily cancel the momentum they have exactly, as there will not always be an anchor (or combination) ideally placed to exactly let them cancel momentum, which Windrunners/Skybreakers can easily do. Simply Mistborn are more limited compared to Gravitation orders in every single facet of their 'flight'. Atium users sees only a few seconds into future + is granted mental acuity to make sense of all the shadows. If, Radiant can create a threat that Mistborn physically cannot move away from in that amount of seconds, they would simply die. E.g. soulcast air in ~80 foot radius to oil and set it ablaze, exact parameters would depend on details of how many seconds into the future they can see + how quickly Mistborn can accelerate. Second, atium creates shadows of object only within certain Radius of the user or something of the sort (e.g. no Atium shadows of all the buildings and planet due to planetary movement), so if there is such a range beyond which object does not generate a shadow and you can create a threat that moves that distance in fraction of a second, you could again kill atium burner without any shenanigans, or waiting them out. Admittedly, I think this option is not very realistic, as the distance would be too large to be useful or to let you actually aim accurately. Not that much Stormlight, we see Jasnah soulcasting three people (back when she was 3rd Oath most likely) without ever starting to glow and with only what little spheres she could hide on her person. Combat ready Radiant would be able to soulcast tens of people before running out. Also, Scadrial is 'low investiture world' compared to Roshar (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/152/#e2801) so focusing your Stormlight to push through for one Mistborn should be doable. I mean, average soulcaster on Roshar could soulcast filled Goldmind (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9681). Regarding running away, if I recall properly, while in Cognitive they are able to pull spheres of objects closer, there is a chance something similar could be done with representation of living creatures, however we don't know that, so it could be viable option against Lightweavers, against Elsecallers it depends on range of Elsecallers. Normal man cannot fight people in Plate. Literally the only person we see doing that is Kaladin on Stormlight, and he wins directly only against Helaran (back when he did not have surges), the rest of the time he has surges + part of plate for improvised shielding. Plate would let you beat atium (only atium, no other metals), for the simple reason that without other boosts, only atium does not give you way of getting through plate in less then multiple minutes. Barring exceptional circumstances, like having atium gathered over 1000 years split among 300 people, atium user will run out sooner. Against Mistborn, even with Atium the only tools for getting through plate they have are Duralumin steelpushes/ironpulls, or Pewter enhanced strikes. Seeing that multiple Warform parshendi (who are roughly 2x the strength of regular person, i.e. comparable to Mistborn burning pewter) needed few minutes to get through deadplate, even Pewter-strikes might not help much. I mean, they don't need to move faster then a bullets when they have ~4 seconds heads up on the bullet trajectory. Though machine gun would cause them trouble most likely. No offense, but You would need more than three, if it was even possible. Atium lets you know everything that they will do that is physically visible with several seconds heads up, regular people can get around it solely by overwhelming it, i.e. giving them too many things to react to at once. Vin managed to do what she did with Zane only because she also experienced atium, and knew what to look for (and he underestimated her). However, this gives me an idea, could Lightweaver make enough Illusions to overwhelm even Atium enhanced mind? Giving them too much shadows to contend with? This assumes that Illusions create atium shadows.

Completely fair. I personally read it that the strength+endurance is the main pewter power, and the rest is passive-ish effect, and it only bring them up to peak human, or very little beyond that. But I concede it can be read the other way as well. Also agreed on speed, pewter burner would most likely be a bit faster, but for Mistborn that is less important.

How will Mistborn attack from all sides, when steel and iron work on lines radiating away from Mistborn? At best they can attack from two sides at a time. Anything else would require skill on par with Kelsier, which is quite outside of ordinary. In terms of stamina and reflexes Stormlight is equivalent to Pewter, both seem to only 'perfect' and push you to natural limit. Pewter has edge in doubling strength, but it heals very little comparatively. Stormlight has edge in healing on par with F-Gold, but provides little strength boost. When it comes to Abrasion, there is a question if the Mistborn even could make contact in the first place, provided Radiant is sufficiently 'slicked'. Most likely yes, but could they hold on long enough to fully cancel that effect? I would say no. Could they recreate that trick? I mean, Vin was kind of a savant (lower-case s), and no other Mistborn did that, neither Kelsier (who was savant-like in Steel and Iron) nor Elend (who had more raw power). They need to heal only when they get hit. If Mistborn gets hit, they are worse off permanently, maybe even crippled or dead, if hit with Shardblade. Well, why would they not carry as much Light as possible into battle? We see in RoW that they have started sowing spheres into clothes, adding a small backpack/sash with some more is not much of a stretch. Main point was that even when using very physical surge to a maximum (Gravitation), amount of spheres one person can easily carry was sufficient to last 12 hours, more then enough for any fight with Mistborn. If the Mistborn is currently not burning, it would be 'trivial', i.e. as difficult as soulcasting regular person. If they are burning it would consume more Stormlight, but it would still be doable. Shardblade would still have advantage of weight and momentum, so daggers would not be that suitable for blocking. Also, Shardblade can shapeshift, i.e. it could get blocked but still be near Mistborn, then shapeshift to allow it to move around daggers and Radiant wins. Or if the Radiant is sufficiently skilled they could use skipping (where you dismiss Blade for split second to avoid getting blocked by Shardblade, or something else). I addressed my opinion on Pewter vs Stormlight earlier. Standard equipment changes as the time and technology changes, as you yourself allow for. Most Radiant carry weapons prior to 3rd Oath, and considering that Fused carry Stormlight leaching lances, it would be prudent of them to carry a backup weapon, i.e. small dagger or knife. Allowing Radiant to have a knife on their person is really not that much of a stretch I think, it is just a knife afterall, and sometimes it is useful to have tool that does not cut through everything like butter. How will that equipment change going forward we don't exactly know but SotD 2 gives some hints, but clearly it will change. Well, you chose ideal terrain for Mistborn, there it makes sense to deny them those advantages as best able. And we have seen little of those Orders, so I did not wish to engage in speculation on what they could do, and settled for conservative option. Abrasion orders could also dodge much more easily and chase after Mistborn, I just did not explicitly mention them. Yes, and that was deadplate, Dalinar made little effort to dodge, and despite those being multi-kilo stones thrown by equivalent of Pewter arms, they did not damage the Plate that much. To paraphrase you, Fabrials could reasonably be part of standard Radiant equipment. Why deny themselves tools that would help them? I will point out again, that at least Fabrials and Radiants are contemporary, whereas Mistborn and guns are separated by ~200 years (as far as we currently know). So Radiant equipped with Fabrial is more "realistic" then Mistborn with gun. EDIT (Posted before finishing): I would also add this, while all Mistborn are the same, there are 10 kinds of Radiants, some more suited for direct combat, some less. At ~4th Oath all have good melee option in Shardblade, and great defense in Shardplate, but suitability of their Surges for combat is different. However, I think that that diversity makes them much better at supporting each other, and covering weaknesses. E.g. 10 Mistborn vs 10 Knight Radiant, if those Radiants were from different suitable orders they would be stronger then if it was only 10 Edgedancers for example. A Stoneward to manipulate terrain and create defensive position, Lightweaver to confuse and create illusions, Skybreakers to harry and chase Mistborn, Windrunners to do the same, or provide protection from projectiles with Reverse Lashings. Elsecallers to attack from Cognitive, or scout for information (Willshaper could do the same). I would say they would work much better as a team, than as individuals, and there even those 'weaker' orders would show their value.

Not sure if Radiants use Stormlight faster than Mistborn, Kaladin on 3rd Oath flew as hard as he could for ~12 hours on single sack of spheres. It would depend on Oath level, Surge and what metal you are comparing to. I'd guess it would be similar to steel? But hard to say really. Mostly agree on below third ideal, with some exceptions (Skybreakers, Windrunners who have better maneurevibility; Elsecallers who could kill them from Cognitive). Also note that below 3rd Oath Radiant will be carrying a weapon, so getting in melee range is dangerous for Mistborn, as while Radiant can survive couple deadly wounds, Mistborn cannot. On 3rd Oath, Mistborn has to bypass Shardblade, which without Atium will be very difficult to impossible (it is shapeshifting sentient weapon). Also if they are carrying at least a dagger or something, then again Mistborn touching them is not necessarily a win for Mistborn (not sure why Mistborn get great equipment, but Radiants are assumed to be without any weapon outside of Blade). Radiant won't stand waiting to get hit, and Plate is roughly as fast as horse (if I remember correctly). So not so easy a target to hit. Additionally they could form Shardblade into a shape of shield for additional protection. Orders with Transportation could simply move to Cognitive, and either strike from there, or use it to relocate to better position. Gravitation orders are right in the mist chasing Mistborn. Cohesion orders can well, make a hiding place for themselves if need be. I understood thread to be comparing the specific Invested arts and their wielders, not planets and tech levels. Guns have less to do with Allomancy, then Fabrials have with Knights Radiant. But alright then, Roshar has access to Fabrials, let us give Fabrials to Radiants. Example, material attracting Fabrial, to take away vials of metal from Mistborn + destabilize anchors. Potentially also fabrials blocking Invested abilities. Not so sure, Gravitation allows you to change direction arbitrarily + with as much acceleration you wish for (have Stormlight for). I don't see how Mistborn who is limited in directions, and whose typical strength is limited to steelpush which can propel them 50 feet upwards at most (Vin early training with Kelsier) is better. Duralumin could give them very short speed advantage, but that is about it. Bondsmiths seem to be the exception when it comes to Blade and Plate. For five orders we have evidence of getting blade at 3rd Oath (Windrunners, Skybreakers, Edgedancers, Elsecallers, Lightweavers) and per WoB it is that way for most orders (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/60/#e6662) , which does not rule out it happening sooner ). For two we have evidence of Plate being at fourth Ideal (Windrunners, Elsecallers). Blade seems to be pretty established pattern, and that leaves Plate for being either Fourth Oath of Fifth Oath. Also per WoB (older and paraphrased admittadly https://wob.coppermind.net/events/167/#e3039 ) Plate was available to all Orders, so maybe even Bondsmiths . Eye slit can be closed, so Radiant would have to leave a weak spot intentionally. Even users with Dead plate close them in battle (see Adolin) and make it translucent, so it could be taken that Radiant would as well, since they have greater control over it. Shardplate does protect again emotional Allomancy, a fresh WoB

I would say that is because (as far as we know) both Blade and Plate are inherent parts of the Knights Radiant magic system. You cannot be a Radiant of 4th oath without those two tools, and they are a function of their magic system, not external to it (like guns or daggers). Conversely, there was never a Mistborn alive at the same time as guns existing (as far as we know), and existence of guns or other Tech (which typically uses Feruchemy) has nothing to do with Allomancers (as is the name of the thread). In the mighty 70+ pages thread there were also discussion on surges and their applications, but ultimately the discussion of higher Oath Radiants vs Mistborn always end up at the simple fact that Blade and Plate are quite strong on their own, giving overwhelming offense in close-quarters and (for the time being) unparalleled defense, especially when coupled with Stormlight healing. If we start including guns and other non-inherent things, we can start including Fabrials, such as those that block Invested arts, or attract given essences to mess with/remove metals. If we look at Surges, we are suddenly dealing with 10 questions instead of one, as fighting styles of different orders would be quite different: Windrunners: Have superior mobility to Mistborn thanks to Gravitation, so they can stay further away if need be, or do strafing attack. Additionally they can use Adhesion to immobilize Mistborn, or use Reverse Lashing to defend against long-range weaponry (aluminum notwithstanding). Lashings can also be used for long range attacks. These abilities are at least partially independent on Oath level. Skybreakers: Gravitation gives them similar mobility to Windrunners + same long range option. Division in addition to that allows them most likely to create effectively bombs + gives them good melee option in addition to Shardblade. Elsecallers: Soulcasting allows them to attack from distance, and they can soulcast even people (see Jasnah when still on at most 3rd Oath), and Mistborn are Invested only when actively burning. This gives them good option to either immobilize or fully kill people, and they can do that from Cognitive realm, where Mistborn cannot touch them. Additionally it lets them remove anchors, but not sure if that is good usage of it. LIghtweavers: Soulcasting could be used similarly to Elsecallers, however they most likely can do it only at melee range (I think the long-distance Soulcasting is only possible for Elsecallers). Additionally they could use Illusions to confuse Mistborn (but Bronze could potentially detect them, however that could depend on strength of the Mistborn as Lightweaving is not very 'loud' per Oathbringer), or use them offensively to blind Mistborn. Eventually, lasers. Edgedancers: Abrasion allows them for increased mobility on the ground + allows them to evade grappling by Mistborn, which could serve as defense against Chromium (depending on how leeching and active surge would work). Additionally, it could be used to interfere with anchors to hinder Mistborn mobility. Progressions makes them even harder to kill then other Orders. Dustbringers: Can use Abrasion to again move around (not sure if as well as Edgedancers) + Division for better offensive option. (here we know relatively little) Truthwatchers: We know little of regular orders, but their abilities Lightweaving + Progression suit them more towards indirect methods of attack and would supplement their main offensive option, Shardblade. Willshapers: Terrain manipulation via Cohesion + Elsecalling to evade Mistborn, again, we have seen very little of them so far. Stonewards: We have seen nothing of them, but their surges (and name) hint at ability to strengthen regular materials and manipulate them, so even their regular clothing could serve as armor to some extent, giving them better defense at lower Oaths, but that is speculative. Bondsmiths: If unchained Bondsmith touches Mistborn, they most likely win, but their powers are so nebulous it makes it difficult to judge exactly + there seems to be variance even within this order. Then why not consider Radiant with gun with aluminum bullets? Killing Allomancer is far easier than killing Radint or even Shardbearer, since they have no healing abilities. However, this is going out of the scope of the thread (in my opinion), and I already did this for 70+ pages so I will stop here

Note that the eye slit can be closed even on dead plate, and the faceplate can simply turn translucent. So the plan relying on presence of eye-slit depends on Radiant knowingly keeping an opening for enemy to exploit. Conversely, with enough Stormlight Elsecaller could soulcast Fullborn, so saying enough is a bit of a cheating though. Regularly used amounts of atium are minute or two at best, which would not be enough to get through plate. It would give them a chance though. Shardhammer are also heavy enough that two people have issue just lifting it, so even Mistborn would have to constantly flare pewter just to be able to handle it somewhat, leaving themselves much less agile. If they are leeching Radiant can stab them, as while Radiant could withstand stab to the neck Mistborn could not. If they are simultaneously burning atium, that is another question. If the blade is already summoned, they can kill Mistborn and question is if atium would be enough to let them dodge 2meters long shapeshifting weapon while standing right next to the wielder. Atium is good, but it can be overcome, and you must be able to dodge. Larkin, nightblood, leechers all work along similar principles, yet Larkin are not historically known as Radiant (or Fused) killing animals. Or even mentioned as historically being used against them, which if the leeching was as effective they most likely would be. (Note: I know this is a second hand argument at best, and not that strong, just thought it is potentially useful viewpoint).

Bit early for this thread no? After the last 70+ pages We will see what new info Lost Metal will bring but my answers, are mostly unchanged. (also for Knight Radiant I assume at least 2nd Oath) Mistborn vs Knight Radiant: From 3rd Oath onward Knight Radiant as they are stronger, heal better, they have 1-hit-kill weapon and potentially also nearly impenetrable armor, 6 orders are faster/more maneuverable. Below 3rd Oath it would go to Mistborn, but some orders could still win albeit with difficulty (Elsecallers, Windrunners, Skybreakers come to mind). Atium could help Mistborn, but above 4th Oath not even that would be enough. Misting vs Knight Radiant: Knight Radiant, pretty much all the time at all Oaths (maybe not 1st oath), with sole exception of Atium-mistings, those would challenge some orders (typically those without long range options or AoE options). Feruchemist vs Knight Radiant: Sole advantage of Feruchemist is F-Steel, so if they have enough of it, they could win (blitz the Radiant). Without enough F-steel, Radiant would win always when above 3rd Oath, and a lot of time when below it. Twinborn vs Knight Radiant: If the twinborn has F-steel, they have some chance against 3rd Oath and below (depending on what depletes faster Stormlight for healing, or F-steel stores), for those with Shardplate they lack offensive options to break through (depending on how exactly F-steel works in conjunction with thrown weapons). Elsecallers could dodge to cognitive and attack from there. Fullborn vs Knight Radiant: Fullborn, full stop. (only chance is catching them off-guard and managing to soulcast them from Cognitive, but they could be too invested to do even that). Kelsier vs Kaladin: Kaladin. Even on 3rd Oath Kaladin would beat Vin in straight up fight, so he should be able to beat Kelsier (as Vin later on "routinely" battles Inquisitors).

I agree that the comparison is hard, but mainly due to vaugness of the force. I mean, similarly to your question 'Would the force work on neutral ground' we should ask 'Would invested abilities work on neutral ground? Would cognitive and spiritual realms exists there? If not, what happens to spren (and by extension Radiants)?' , so I would say that the 'neutral setting' by definition presupposes that abilities work as we would expect in their own world, with some caveats when they interact directly (i.e. is force-sensitivity similar to being invested for purpose of resitting investiture? does Shardplate shield from Mind-trick? ). Fair, I personally think that Vader could still have that much of a problem, even if it is because Luke is well 'rawer' form of everything Jedi hoped Anakin would be + empowered by Dark side a bit. But it is a matter of personal interpretation how much should Vader be inhibited by his conflicting desires, so we can agree to disagree I think I would push back a bit on this. I agree that to compare, things need to be defined. However, Star Wars abilities are well-defined, even if the characters (due to the way stories are told out of order) don't always display what is (retroactively) the best tool for the job from our perspective, the abilities themselves are not inconsistent at all, only their usage at most. And on Cosmere end we have Bondsmithing, which is far more vague than what can Jedi do, so it is not like everything in Cosmere is without gray areas to be mindful of. So my stance is that any demonstrated ability that is not clearly relatively unique (i.e. force lighting, psychometry) is fair game, even if we do not understand exact limitations. I don't think saying that Jedi can learn Force speed is inconsistent with anything really. It is (relatively) well-defined ability, that is accessible even to older Padawans. Same goes for their minor precognition, it is repeatedly stated that the reason killing a Jedi is so hard is that even before they are trained they can instinctively sense danger and avoid it. I don't think my answers really relied on anything that gray, the most outrageous thing was Vader's recent feat, but remember we have seen Jedi lift a multi-tone spaceshift even before, so this is merely a shift of scale not of quality. This alone tells us that lifting someone in Shardplate would not be difficult, and if the plate interfered then you can simply drop ten ton boulder on the Radiant. Well, we are talking about Radiants (and others with Surgebinding) not Cosmere in general, and most Radiants will never be near to becoming gods, nor near destroying planets. Some exceptional ones maybe, but I doubt most of them would get to that point on their own (i.e. without Bondsmith shenanigans or Dawnshards). Additionally, you have similar outliers in SW Legends as well, so I don't think this is as strong an argument.

Eh, you strip quite a lot of context from that scene. He gets defeated by an angry youth (who is his son, whom he does not want to kill at all, remember Anakin is unhealthily fixated on his family), only after that youth who is his equal in potential taps Dark side and catches him off-guard. Vader never wanted to kill Luke, at most he wanted to turn him. He would have no reason to hold back, or indeed have any sentimental feelings towards anyone from Roshar. Oh, I agree on the inconsistency of the power-levels, I was just answering given the premise of the thread and used demonstrated feats to do so. I would say that appealing to lower consistency of the Star Wars is simply dodging the question, not really answering the thread. I agree that it is a thing, however that does not simply allow you to invalidate stronger canonical feats just because. And typically the abilities don't contradict what has been shown elsewhere, at most they simply raise the question of why the seemingly useful ability was not used. Shardplate protects from mind-control based on the fact it is heavily invested, in the same way aluminum helmet would protect (and actually be better at it) against mind-control. How that interacts with Force is a guess. Most Jedi/Sith against 5th Ideal Radiant I would agree, but Vader and other top-level Force users are something else. Which does not change the fact that Vader could simply pickup stuff around using Force and smash it into a Shardplace hard enough to crack it open, based on his strength. Well, so far we have not actually seen what lead Surgebinding to destroy planets. If it requires usage of Dawnshards, it is outside of scope of this thread. If not, then yes all Jedi and Sith are outclassed, but we do not know yet. In wider scope of canon (i.e. legends) there are Sith that eat all living things on a planet, so that is something to consider as well.

My two cents: Ad 1) and 2): The way it is setup, lightsaber bouncing of a Shardblade, and hence also Shardplate to some extent, I would say 4th ideal and up the Radiant wins (provided they have sufficient Stormlight of course). Jedi or Sith has some chance, since I would assume that repeated strikes would break a section of plate, but Radiant has to hit only once. Best tactics on part of Jedi/Sith would be using Statis or Telekinesis to immobilize Radiant, and Speed for blitzing. 9/10 for Radiant. Below third Oath Jedi wins pretty much all the time, the only real advantage the Radiant has would be healing, however Jedi has telekinesis, minor precognition and basically a limited Shardblade. Elsecallers could soulcast the Jedi, but at only second Oath I think that would be quite a feat. 9.5/10 for Jedi On Third Oath it would depend on the order, with Lightweavers and Elsecallers having the best chance (soulcasting for offense, transportation/illusions for defense), followed by Windrunners and Skybreakers (flight for defense and mobility, lashing/division for offense). The rest of orders is difficult to order, but Truthwatchers would go lower on the list, as their powers seem mostly defensive. I think assuming they are equally skilled, Jedi has slight edge here against even the better orders purely thanks to their precognition, but soulcasting is hard to counter, so in total I would say something like 6.5/10 for Jedi . Bondsmiths are a bit of a wildcard, as their chance of victory would strongly depend on how Connection shenanigans interact with the Force, so I make no judgement there. Ad 3) If the person swallowing Yelig-Nar has little to no experience with Surges, Jedi/Sith should win most of the time, they can attack from distance (throwing objects via Force, or guiding lightsaber at them) and finish them off, precognition allowing them to dodge attacks. Depending on how far Jedi/Sith can strike from Yelig-Nar has a chance though, as they would have to stand on the solid ground, so they could be ~immobilized. 8/10 for Jedi Ehm, Jedi/Sith wins little to no contest. I mean Vader can literally grab and hold transport that weights in range of hundreds of tons, and then rips it open like it is made of paper using only the Force, not even Herald in Shardplate could stand up to that. They will get grabbed and immobilized, and torn apart pretty fast.

Not a falling pillar a pillar that was actively brought down by another force user, Dooku, if my memory is correct. Yes, so Jedi could also control their reaction. And again, no using force does not require control of emotions for a Jedi, emotions will not shut down a Jedi's powers, unless you mean to tell me that Obi-Wan felt nothing when dueling Maul after Qui-Gon died, or when dueling Vader on Mustafar, or Luke attacking Vader after Vader taunted him about Leia. In all of those instances Jedi clearly does feel powerful emotions, yet they are still capable of using force. And how is mistborn to tell who are they facing? It is not like they have Sith/Jedi detector power, and before you say Lightsaber color, see Vader in ROTS. KOTOR is being remastered/remade, but admittedly we don't know the extent of changes. This still leaves Kylo Ren and Cal Kestis, neither of which completed their trainings, suggesting Force Statis is not that special of a power (and Cal Kestis is not that powerful even). Agreed, so in that sense comparing a Jedi and a Mistborn does not make sense, as Jedi are much more variable in their powers and skillsets. We are also assuming that Mistborn has access to every metal we know power of, even though some metals are not contemporary to our knowledge. EDIT: Ah, no we do not, we assume Era 1 mistborn, apologies for my inattention. In that case Mistborn have no way to counter Force speed or Force Stasis, so as long the Jedi knows those two powers, they should be able to win. But we can look at Jedi who are combat active and there are commonalities there, i.e. speed, minor precognition, pushes/pulls, minor telekinesis, in newer canon also stasis. No they don't, they just need to not let the emotions control them, see my examples of Jedi being emotional and yet fully capable of fighting and using force.

I'd say that what is meant is that cognitive image of a planet a plane and not a sphere, we saw Kelsier literally walk to the edge of the solar system (or something like it) The issue there is that those two are not topologically equivalent, so you should have issues for some parts of that image, as they would get stretched or something.

Agree on the inconsistency. In principle Jedi council member who went to direct combat shouldn't have been that easy to kill. I would point out that on Mistborn side, people bring up Fullborn as literally unstoppable killing machines based on their theoretical powers, yet the only one we have actually seen went out quite easily. So for the purpose of my argument I took just the powers as is. They regularly use those powers in lightsaber duels? So yes they do use it in combat? And regarding emotions, Sith use lightsaber form Dun Moch, which utilizes taunts and mental attacks to throw opponent off-guard (in Legends at least) so Jedi could be used to such attack. I'd also argue that Jedi telekinesis requires much less effort than what Mistborn can achieve with metals. And even regular people can resist rioting or soothing, i.e. strong willed individuals are not that much affected see Vin for example. Duralumin enhanced would break even such people though. Also if the person with force was a Jedi, soothing would most likely help them focus, not hinder them, as they are meant to be and stay serene. Vice versa for a Sith, who would be 'supercharged' by rioting. Well, it is relatively new. Technically both Revan and Exile used it quite often, and on multiple targets at once. So did Kylo Ren, and I think Vader as well in recent comics. The main issue on that is certain lack of consistency, in that powers are being added over time, and sometimes they retroactively create plot-holes in scenes (i.e. if Force user can catch a ship, why did Obi-Wan not hold down Jango's ship in AOTC? ) From that perspective, this entire discussion is potentially meaningless, unless bounds are agreed upon. My stance is that I take powers that are demonstrably learnable (e.g. not psychometry) and assuming Jedi knows them, as most Jedi demonstrate multiple abilites. If those powers were demonstrated by a padawan, all the better. Then I can assume Jedi/Sith are strong willed, and rioting and soothing has less of an actual effect through self-control which is possible, as Vin demonstrates in TFA. Ok, Jedi simply holds the lightsaber in hand through force, or guides it through air using Force and slices Mistborn in half. Not to mention lightsaber does not have to be made out of metal at all. Actually, control over emotions is not necessary to use force, Jedi do that to insulate themselves from the Dark Side. Disrupting their focus would make it more difficult, unless you pushed them too far and they tapped Dark Side, where those same emotions are actually helping them (see e.g. Luke in ROTJ, Rey in TROS). If that force user is Sith, it would go even worse for Mistborn.

Having read through the thread, I have to be on the side of the Jedi, barring exceptional circumstances average Jedi beats average Mistborn ~9/10 . The reason is, that nearly anything Mistborn can do, Jedi can and sometimes better + Jedi have powers Mistborn don't (most notably they effectively have F-steel + ability to slow people down at distance, and yes both of these powers were demonstrated by Padawans as young as 12, so no experts). Caveat is that I assume that that Force precognition cancels out with Atium, as Atium shows you what opponent will do, so you can react. However Force precognition gives you information on danger couple of seconds into future, and allows you to adjust to avoid it (see Chiss navigators using it to safely move through hyperspace). So since Force precognition allows you to adjust your actions thanks to knowledge of future, it should lead to splitting of future shadows. (Alternative and much more funny possibility is that the Atium shadow does not split, but simply changes whenever Mistborn changes his mind about future course of action. That would be quite confusing.) Now with the biggest elephant out of the room, steel+iron are discount telekinesis, so Jedi have advantage there. Admittedly, Jedi typically don't fly around (though there are some that can) but that is (in my mind) more than compensated by the fact they have freedom of moving objects how they wish + don't need to be heavier then the object. I think basic restrictions (i.e. you cannot push on metals inside someones body) would still apply, so no pulling on metal filings in teeth or piercing, much less trace metals in body (which is out of scope of every Mistborn we have seen, exception being only Vin+Mists). Powerful soothing or rioting could throw Jedi out of balance, but Jedi have a mind trick, which is more versatile tool of a more direct application. Copper and Bronze would be irrelevant, as they function strictly on Investiture pulses, so Jedi would register as either a un-living object or as regular being. Cadmium is irrelevant, but Bendalloy could be useful for quick repositioning at a distance or for cancelling some of Jedi abilities. Pewter is the one metal where Jedi has no direct competitor, however Jedi does not have to be human and a lot of species are stronger or faster then humans, so for simplicity assuming human, Mistborn have advantage of strength. Duralumin is a wild card, but if Mistborn uses it and does not win, they are left without metals for couple of second which would allow Jedi victory. On the other hand, Jedi could use Force Stasis to freeze Mistborn in place for couple of second, close the distance in less then a second with Force Speed and win. Or they could you the mind trick to tell Mistborn to throw away all vials with metals. Or they could directly grab them with telekinesis and choke them out (if we allow Jedi = force user). I think the only way Mistborn could win is if they hit Jedi with a powerful soothing or rioting (duralumin empowered) from a distance which is greater than what Jedi can act on, and then quickly strike a killing blow. If Mistborn cannot do that, or the soothing/rioting fails to have desired effect, they won't win, since shot coins are countered either by lightsaber, or telekinesis, or force stasis or force speed, taking away the one long range option of Mistborn.

Good question. I will assume that the person with Feruchemical brass also has twin Gold or F-steel, so that they can survive standing next to a person in plate for more than a second. Note: Melting point of brass is ~940 degree Celsius. I don't think it would melt the Shardplate, as it is godmetal and so far we have never seen those be melted, and per the WoB Frustration linked it will be far beyond regular materials. Additionally, there is this WoB on Nightblood https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3797 , suggesting that ''merely' being invested warps physical properties such as melting point. So I would guess they could not melt through the plate. Heat cracking the plate? Maybe, but it would again have to be pretty high temperature, as if it can effectively withstand lighting strikes, it should be able to take the heat, and Brass has 'low' melting point (room on fire can easily reach up to ~800 not far off). Would it hurt the person inside? Well, metals are generally good heat conductors so that would suggest yes, as it is godmetal , however counterargument to that would be that Shardplate insulates the wearer against electricity which goes against properties of metal (the person inside is touching the Plate, so if the plate was conductive they would get shocked). So something else is going on, and that could interfere with this as well. Also, Fused have access to Division, so Plate protecting against heat would make sense to me. Based on this, I am inclined to say no, that Brass feruchemist could not really hurt them in this way, outside of extreme circumstances (lots of time on their hands, and somehow very passive or immobilized Shardbearer)

A fair explanation and it would make sense, provided it is a Stormfather. As far as mechanics of Oathpact, I have slight hope for book 5, but I fear that we will learn majority in back five books, as Heralds are meant to be more of a focus for it.

True, the permanent death the way it happened to Jezrien is very different, however I would lean in the direction that people who are literally bound together have higher likelihood to detect something than a spren that was added on to that connection after the fact, and has never demonstrated any such ability. It's not that big of a stretch to claim he could have felt death of Chana - it is a big speculation but not completely without proofs. Connection is there. Actually that quote is in context of Stormfather seeing things from the perspective of Highstorm, he says so a sentence or two before, so this is not much of a connection between the two of them, unless you wish to argue that Stormfather has that kind of Connection to everyone in Highstorm. He even says that he does not know where they are, only Ishar and most likely only because of Ishars actions (i.e. Ishar cursing him out). We have no evidence of Stormfather being able to even detect Heralds, however we know other Heralds are tied together and can sometimes feel each other dying (if in extreme circumstances), to me that means that this particular piece of evidence points much strongly away from Stormfather than towards. Thanks for checking on that, useful to know. Honestly I have no idea either. Even if it was fake created by Ishar I would only guess that conduit to Spiritual is opened through Oathpact that moves the one that died to Braize, and since they are all linked to Oathpact they all get some Stormlight directly in them. In battle they would not notice, as they are full of Stormlight anyway thanks to Honorblades, but outside of it it could be noticable. Pure speculation of course. Thanks for allowing for the points. I agree that they are quite speculative, but that is part of fun of these discussion to me

Possibly, more elegant would be something like Dalinar questioning Ash, and then suddenly both Ash and Stormfather reacting. This is of course predicated on Stormfather having a reaction and not hiding it from Dalinar. Ah, that makes more sense, thanks for elaborating. Good point, so far all the times magic systems have been changed Shard was involved (as far as I recall), so it does make sense that Shard would be involved in this change. Only other option would be the moment of Odium investing in the system (disease based magic being more adversarial), however that is too much of a stretch to me, so I concede this point. Fair on the Hoid, I agree. For the record, I do agree that Fortune can provide one with knowledge and on lowest levels it would seem like a gut instinct, I am merely asserting that Fortune can do additional things which are more proactive, things that could be described as probability manipulation, or simply put increased/decreased luck. Take as an analogous example (in my mind) Feruchemist using just blank connection to crudely connect to surrounding areas vs Bondsmiths picking and choosing what to do with individual Connection lines. Both applications of Connection, one more passive the other more active. I do agree with that, to me having in-world explanation (i.e. someone invoking Fortune) is more pleasing. I prefer the unknowable deities to act in less direct manner. I would say that because in the end it is still a crude method of obtaining information on the future which limits you to one at a time in contrast to more expansive futuresight seemingly connected to Fortune. In my argument it could be used that way, but it is strictly inferior to using Fortune, hence on Shard level it would be pretty useless. @mdross81 good eye, I did not notice that. So frost appearing seems to be linked to Spiritual realm links, and Ishar can create it intentionally per Row. Are there scenes linking blue frost appearing and Stormfather? I don't have books on hand right now so I cannot check.

I disagree that it goes both ways, prior to this chapter we have been shown that Heralds can react to at least permanent death of another, conversely we had no evidence that Stormfather can detect such. After this prologue we either have evidence that Stormfather can react to temporary deaths, or that such detection is evidence for it not being Stormfather, in accordance with previous evidence. My argument never rested on Ishar being called Herald of Luck, so all this does not really matter. We have seen Bondsmith connect people to past aspects of people, and we have seen enlightened Truthwatcher show someone alternate version of themselves. In light of this I don't think it is that much of a stretch to say that Bondsmith with over 5000 years of skill could use their powers to connect either themselves or someone else to future possible aspect of themselves or someone else. In that way they would obtain knowledge of future without need for Fortune (which we understand very little) I was thinking more of showing it at the end of Oathbringer along with Ash for example. Lack of scene of Stormfather having a reaction is not the same as Stormfather not having reaction, however we know Heralds can at least sometimes detect things happening to others thanks to that scene, for Stormfather we had no such knowledge prior to prologue 5. I never stated that Ishar changed the magic system, not sure where you got that. I was saying that Ishar, as someone with probably unparaleled understanding of Connection could feasibly still use (if in diminished form) the original method he used to gain Bondsmith powers, which predate both disease based magic and Rosharan surgebinding. Obtaining the same or similar power multiple times can strengthen it, see Hoid and his Lightweaving or WoBs on having two spren with overlapping surges. He could want the blade to make himself stronger then before. Arguably we have evidence for him being surprisingly strong, see Stormfather's reaction to Ishar almost stealing Nahel bond. (of course that could also be explained via Honor's restrictions falling away, making Surgebinding as a whole stronger). You say Hoid knows where to be, however one of the WoBs you quote is quite explicit that Hoid usually does not know why he is where he is. So Fortune must be able to act without explicit knowledge. Additionally, in one recent WoB Brandon says that being around Axies the Collector could be dangerous, due to wrong kind of Fortune and the way it is written it sounds to me like bad luck and wrong Fortune can be at least related. So I will stand by my statement that Fortune can be kind of luck, or lead to improbable events happening surprisingly often. As we will never have confirmation if God Beyond exists, that is not much of evidence. Among other things, it is not just that based on other WoBs.

Showing or at least mentioning Stormfather react would provide additional information. Additionally, if temporary death of Herald would freak out Stormfather that much, his reaction to permanent death would most likely be far greater. I would expect that Dalinar would at least mention it. Ashynite magic was not always illness based, and they did have access to powers of Bondsmithing/Connection powers, and they were stronger than bound Radiant surges. See WoBs So there is a way to access surges that is neither Spren based, Honorblade based or disease based. Someone who was working with Connection for ~5000 years should be able to maintain his powers, I would say. Untrue, Hoid explicitly uses Fortune to be where he wants/needs to be, which makes him lucky. Additionally, objects appearing where they are convenient but unlikely (Rock's razor, Tien's horse) could be caused by Fortune, so Fortune can make unlikely things happen, i.e. it can cause lead to lucky coincidences. From these description Fortune seems to be both of futuresight and also of probability manipulation.

If something suddenly burns me I would react more strongly than if the same thing happened while I was in the middle of burning building. But yes, it is a weaker part of theory. Fortune is fully of 'future' sight, I was proposing to use Connection powers to circumvent that. Considering what we have seen with Tien, I don't think it is necessarily impossible, if difficult. SF most likely has connection to Oathpact (thanks to merging with cognitive shadow of Tanavast), but from what we have seen his connection is weaker than that of Heralds. And from all we know, he did not register death of Jezrien, so his link is weaker than that of Heralds. If he is unable to feel permanent death and removal of party from Oathpact, why would he feel temporary death and so strongly at that?