therunner

Or Bands of Mourning did not actually contain attributes, but raw Investiture (e.g. Mists). I have a whole theory on that You cannot send metalminds to spiritual realm or cognitive realm, how woudl that even work? Fullborn has no access to realmatic travel, and metalminds must be on person. Electrum won't show you getting affected by emotional allomancy, so leeching would also not show.

You would have 10x of what is stored sure, but how quickly can you access it when burning the metalmind? Metals have burn and flare (unless the Mistborn is very proficient with given metal), so you would only get two possible rates. And from what Miles is saying, Compounding might be limited to only burn which gives you 10x in the amount. Since 'base setting' of Feruchemy (one without lost) is doubling of the attribute (i.e. you get linearly what you put in), then burning even Bands of Mourning would just get you to 10x (Edited) increase in all attributes (i.e. you would end up e.g. 10+1 times as strong, instead of 1+1 times as strong vs tapping at base rate), but you could not get more. Interestingly, this rate is about in line with what Bleeder was doing (moving at ~10-12x times as fast as human at max speed), so perhaps she was not full on Compounding, just burning the metalminds of the Steelrunner she killed. So tapping is necessary for the more extreme feats. I suggested taking away F-Steel simply because it is quite clear that its mere presence heavily favours Fullborn, most arguments on the previous pages were pretty much "Fullborn is faster then Radiant even thinks". So after concluding that Fullborn wins pretty much all the time due to this, next step can be to remove the one power which clearly dominates all others, hence suggestion to remove speed. Removing Surge would not really achieve anything like this. Atium is Era 1 only metal, so either Fullborn gets access to Atium but only 10 metals, or full 16 metals but no Atium. Saying no steel is explained above for the reasoning, it is reaction to clear superiority of superspeed over pretty much any other power. Later on we can start removing Surges, but I suggest discussing just one change first? To fully discuss this would require TLM spoilers, so I'd avoid it. From theoretical standpoint, either with compounded Steel wins. Without compounded steel, both Feruchemist and Mistborn require at minimum C-Gold and C-Pewter to even stand a chance of survival. I don't believe that either, however burning a metalmind gives you set amount of attribute which apparently is 10x fold. So it does not allow for the more extreme feats, e.g. moving at even just Mach 1 (which requires tapping at minimum for 40x of maximum speed). However it is useful from the efficiency standpoint. We don't know how Bands got made and they are weird compared to medallions (granting more powers than should be possible, granting allomancy, user leaking Mists) so I would not use them as evidence of what Nicrosil compounding can do to allomantic strength. We simply don't know if that is possible with Nicrosil compounding.

Why do you consider squires to be minor inconvenience? They can use surges, and they can heal on par with Gold Ferring at least. I don't think you can avoid savantism effect that easily. Not feeling pain is a big problem, because you don't notice anything hurting and you exert yourself too much too easily. Sure, but again, squires can do the same to Mistborn, and much more easily since there is more of them and only one Mistborn. And the Mistborn cannot heal, and is not really that fast compared to some Radiants. (e.g. Windrunner squires are faster than Mistborn). Where are you taking that Mistborn is moving particularly fast? Some Radiants are much more mobile then Mistborn (Windrunners, Skybreakers, on ground Edgedancers and Dustbringers).

Unconscious burning of regular metal is only when you are trying to receive the desired effect, so there is still Intent there. Only pewter has been shown to be burned when unconscious, and that was only when grievously wounded For the metalminds, we see that Miles has to choose which attribute to get when burning the metalmind (If i recall correctly) so concious Intent is necessary. I would be careful when considering BoM, there is still a lot we don't know about them (e.g. why the users are trailing Mists, when no one else outside of Vin did that). And as stated, they contain for example only seconds of supersonic speeds, even when some of that movement was only hands and not full body (which would presumably consume faster). EDIT: To use F-steel to speed up compounding process, you first need to store or compounded that amount of steel, so you actually cant do that. It would end up taking more time than just compounding the single metal on its own And on using A-duralumin to speed up the process, I think that it is simply not feasible to handle, even for Fullborn. You can manage the rate at which you store attribute, but the sudden influx of massive amount of attribute at once would be too much, since the attribute still passes through Fullborn. So inevitably the Fullborn would for some amount of time embody that attribute, which would be deadly to them for a lot of the occurrences. Plus who knows what such influx of attribute would do to their spiritweb. And it would require great coordination on the end of Fullborn. And I don't understand the part with A-Nicrosil, could you explain it again, step by step?

Sideposting from Fullborn vs 5th Ideal Windrunner thread, because I think the math is relevant. Most of the power of Fullborn comes from Compounding, and the levels of stores Feruchemists simply don't have access to, so I will focus on that. Two parts, one is the preparation of metalminds, the second actually tapping. Part 1: Metalminds preparation Assume, that you can fill a BB sized metalmind (0.3 grams) to fullness in about a month, so you have ~one month worth of attribute (for simplicity assuming you can store all of the attribute, i.e. 100%). Then you need to do that 16 times, and yes some can be done at the same time. Then you need to burn these to Compound, where burn speed will play role. Most vials contain flakes of metals which will be fractions of a gram I would assume, and BB pellets are about ~0.3 gram. So you would burn that for minutes or hours, depending on the metal. We will take the upper bound, so 1 hour to burn BB pellet. If you disagree, simply rescale the numbers that result by the ratio of hour to your estimate for burning the BB pellet. You need to repeat that many times, and each time you need 10x bigger piece of metal to store in, and so they would take up 10x as much time to burn the metalmind. After doing this four times, you would need to burn each of your metalminds for ~10000 hours to compound again, and at that point they weight around 16*300 grams in total, and you need 48 kilograms of metal to store in. So, you quickly run into physical limitations. If filling BB sized metalmind can be done within ~month of time, then at most Fullborn can have something around ~100000 months of attribute available at any given time, more then that would require too much metalminds (this already requires Fullborn to wear on him 48 kilograms of just metalminds). And time to do this is on the order of ~16*1 month for initial storing + 16*(10000+1000+100+10+1) hours, so about 260 months of pure time, i.e. more than 20 years of doing nothing but compounding. No practicing with powers, socializing, sleeping, eating, nothing. Bendalloy would help to 'cut down' externally perceived time, but that would require a lot of bendalloy. Even if burning the original BB sized pellet took only 10 minutes on average across all metals, then it would still require doing nothing but compounding for ~3.3 years non-stop. Part 2: Tapping inefficiency in feruchemy Per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) the feruchemy is increasingly inefficient the harder you tap . If we look at example of F-steel (slightly borrowing from early post in Scadrial vs Roshar post RoW), and try to figure out what penalties would be for n-fold tapping speed. I also assume that 100% speed for movement (running, walking etc.) is 9m/s, as that is roughly what above average person can sustain for a 100 meter dash. We assume that the increasing tapping is not getting progressively difficult, just equally difficult. At 2x tapping we get 5/6 inefficiency, at 3x we get 1/2 inefficiency, ratio of these is 3/5, so then in the most optimistic scenario the penalty when tapping n-fold is 5/6(3/5)^(n-1). If I had 100 hours of 100% speed stored the time I would get out when tapping n-fold would be 100/n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1), so Tapping at 10x speeds, to get total of 10+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*11 = 99 m/s), the time would 0.05 hours = 3 minutes (with original store being 100% (9m/s) speed for 100 hours) Tapping at 20x speeds, to get total of 20+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*21 = 189 m/s), the time would be 0.00015 hours = 0.5 second Tapping at 30x speeds, to get total of 30+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*31 = 279 m/s), the time would be 6*10^(-7) hours = 0.0022 second = 22 ms Tapping at 40x speeds, to get total of 35+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*41 = 369 m/s, our first sonic speed!), the time would be 0.00001 second = 0.1 ms Now, in light of the fact that Fullborn can have optimistically at most ~100 000 months of any given attribute at his person at a time (however with each metalmind weighting around 3 kilograms) then Fullborn has at most 30*24*100000 = 72 000 000 hours of 100% speed stored, which would enable them to move at mildly sonic speed for about ~72 seconds. Higher Machs would he exponentially more difficult to achieve, and with those stores would be basically impossible to sustain for more than a milisecond. So either storing in the BB sized metalmind to fill it completely up takes more than a month, in fact considerably longer (~years). Or even Fullborn with full stores can move at Mach 1 for a minute at most, before running completely dry. And getting to that level of stores would take Fullborn years or possibly decades. So based on this Fullborn would be a lot weaker than typically assumed.

I think pewter is at best mildly beyond human. No character ever singles out Pewterarms as being faster then regular people, and the main feature for running is the inability to get tired while on pewter drag. So I think between Stormlight perfecting, and some minor side-ffect of pewter, it is about equal. So basically that boils down, how much time does Fullborn have to prepare? Yeah, but compounding takes active effort and focus and Intent. It is not exactly activity you can passively do. I agree on the right way to compound (to an extent). However, that original filling up time is going to be long. Most metalminds are small objects already (earrings, rings, etc.) and they are usually not full. Wax is storing pretty much all the time, and his metalminds are not full (as far as we know), despite him being at 50% almost all the time. So filling that will take a while, days, possibly more. Then you need to do that 16 times, and yes some can be done at the same time. However, others are more difficult to store, since there is a floor below which you cannot store more. And then, burn speed. Most vials contain flakes of metals which will be fractions of a gram I would assume, and BB pellets are about ~0.3 gram. So you would burn that for minutes or hours, depending on the metal. And then you need to repeat that many times, and each time you need 10x bigger piece of metal to store in, and 10x as much time to burn the metalmind. After doing this four times, you would need to burn each of your metalminds for ~10000 hours to compound again, and at that point they weight around 16*300 grams in total, and you need 48 kilograms of metal to store in. So, you quickly run into physical limitations. If filling BB sized metalmind can be done within ~month of time, then at most Fullborn can have something around ~10000 months of attribute available at any given time, more then that would require too much metalminds. And time to do this is on the order of ~16*1 month for initial storing + 16*(1000+100+10+1) hours, so about 40 months of pure time, i.e. more than 3 years of doing nothing but compounding. No practicing with powers, socializing, sleeping, eating, nothing. Bendalloy would help to 'cut down' externally perceived time, but that would require a lot of bendalloy. And I will continue to argue that A-Duralumin could not be safely used for this process. Though even if it could, that still leaves the limitation that you can at most compound about 3-4 times before you would need to start dragging around ~50 kilograms of metal. This effectively means that most feats of Fullborn will be limited by the fact that compressing attributes (i.e. going beyond human limits) wastes Investiture. I.e. you can become 2x as strong for 50 hours, but 50x as strong only for minutes. Based on the math above, I would say that getting to 5 Oaths would be typically faster (for those that could achieve it). Kaladin seems to be on path to achieve 5th Oath by his 3 year as Radiant, and Teft was not lagging far behind. And this is without having any guidance and making it up as he goes along. No, Miles would not be more dangerous than Rashek. Rashek was not just Fullborn, but also Mistborn stronger then Lerasium one, a Sliver, and possessed remnants of knowledge of Shard from his Ascension. And remember that Miles would have to now devote some of the space in his body to other metalminds than Gold, so he would actually have less ability to heal, if he were Fullborn. Sown into clothes, maybe a bag? Bag of spheres is enough to last for ~12 hours while using Lashings, and that is on 3rd Oath. With 2 more Oaths increasing effectiveness of surges, improving how much leakage there is, and Plate catching run-off, I think Windrunner can easily last full day just on Spheres in his clothes. Sowing sphers into clothes takes a day or two, and filling them up takes at most 10 days (wait for Highstorm). Preparing the metalminds (armor sized) takes years, as the above calculation shows. Even without F-steel? Side not on this item from above. If the calculation makes sense as order of magnitude estimate, then we can easily rule out most of the more outrageous statements about Fullborn (i.e. become black hole, melt the planet etc.). In fact, per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) the feruchemy is increasingly inefficient the harder you tap . If we look at example of F-steel (slightly borrowing from early post in Scadrial vs Roshar post RoW), and try to figure out what penalties would be for n-fold tapping speed. I also assume that 100% speed for movement (running, walking etc.) is 9m/s, as that is roughly what above average person can sustain for a 100 meter dash. We assume that the increasing tapping is not getting progressively difficult, just equally difficult. At 2x tapping we get 5/6 inefficiency, at 3x we get 1/2 inefficiency, ratio of these is 3/5, so then in the most optimistic scenario the penalty when tapping n-fold is 5/6(3/5)^(n-1). If I had 100 hours of 100% speed stored the time I would get out when tapping n-fold would be 100/n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1), so Tapping at 10x speeds, to get total of 10+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*11 = 99 m/s), the time would 0.05 hours = 3 minutes (with original store being 100% (9m/s) speed for 100 hours) Tapping at 20x speeds, to get total of 20+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*21 = 189 m/s), the time would be 0.00015 hours = 0.5 second Tapping at 30x speeds, to get total of 30+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*31 = 279 m/s), the time would be 6*10^(-7) hours = 0.0022 second = 22 ms Tapping at 40x speeds, to get total of 35+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*41 = 369 m/s, our first sonic speed!), the time would be 0.00001 second = 0.1 ms Now, in light of the fact that Fullborn can have at most ~100 000 months of any given attribute at his person at a time (however with each metalmind weighting around 3 kilograms) then Fullborn has at most 30*24*100000 = 72 000 000 hours of 100% speed stored, which would enable them to move at mildly sonic speed for about ~72 seconds. Higher Machs would he exponentially more difficult to achieve, and with those stores would be basically impossible to sustain for more than a milisecond. So either storing in the BB sized metalmind to fill it completely up takes more than a month, in fact considerably longer (~years). Or even Fullborn with full stores can move at Mach 1 for a minute at most, before running completely dry. Huh.

No problem, sorry if I seemed curt in my response Yeah, I think it was this WoB that led me to that consideration, that both Atium and Electrum only show 'physical' stuff. More speculatively, we know that aluminum does not show up in A-Atium sight, and that heavily Invested objects don't show for steelsight. Combined I speculate that such heavily Invested objects would also not show up in A-Atium sight, which would render Atium substantially weaker against Shardblades. However, that is more of a Wild-mass guess

There is also the plate, which does increase speed of wearer (both reaction speed and movement). I think if nicrosil compoudning strengthening allomancy is possible that Fullborn might be faster than Radiant in plate, however since Elend does not seem to be faster then Vin, I doubt that even that would help. Without Nicrosil compounding working like that, Fullborn will be a bit slower movement wise. Shardblade would waste more F-Gold then most other attacks, so it would be viable strategy. And if severing on all three realms would also remove link to metalminds, then strike to spine is certain death even for Fullborn. No, I did mean A-Electrum. Electrum shadow shows what can happen to you in future, but Shardblade at first does not cut physical body, so that might not show up on the shadow. I think it might be actually? Unless it would render such future invisible to the sight completely (similar to what Renarin does). A-Duralumin and compounding is apparently dangerous to do, so that might not be smart idea for Fullborn. And even then, we don't know how much it takes to fill up metalmind. It might require multiple cycles, which would take time even if the Fullborn could handle doing it with A-Duralumin. That is my logic as well. Well you could leech the plate, but you would not leech Radiant underneath. And since living plate does not require light to be operational, you would not really achieve much? Maybe you could damage the spren, but that would probably require a lot of Chromium, as neither spren nor Fused seem to fear Larkin, who work along similar lines. So I think it would not do much to the plate.

I'd say possibly yes, though I don't think enhanced pewter improves speed that much. All the feats of pewter in the books are consistent with someone 'just' being capable of non-stop sprinting at limit of human capability, or very slightly beyond. Similarly, Elend is not described as faster then Vin, despite being Lerasium Mistborn, and demonstrably more powerful in other ways. So I think Speedwise, Radiant in Plate actually has advantage now. Would F-Iron help? It would ensure that you cannot really push the metals away (as Fullborn is heavier), however it would not make the pushes/pulls stronger as far as I understand it. So Reverse Lashing should still be able to easily pull them aside. And on top of that, Coins are not that dangerous to plate. Don't forget that Radiant has plate, which also enhanced dexterity, strength and speed. Though using F-Chromium, A-electrum and F-zinc together would make Fullborn a nightmare to grapple with even in close quarters. The only advantage there is that Shardplate wound would not show on Electrum shadow. Also, Plate would shield Radiant from being leeched. So either Fullborn would have to leech the spren comprising plate enough to damage them, or they would have to break plate first. Both of these while in melee range of Shardblade. True that would help, though it might take too much time. BoM were far less Invested than Shardblade, relatively small, and yet nearly full metalminds. So creating a full body armor might take too much time even with Compounding. I'd say that having a vambrace or two that can resist shardblade makes sense, but anything beyond that gives a lot of leeway to Fullborn. Also I wonder if using metalmind as shield would 'damage' the Investiture in them in some way. For example half-shards can only take a few hits, and so can Shardplate, so I would assume that getting hit by Shardblade would damage the metalmind somehow. I would go with the second option, use projectiles to force Fullborn to waste Chromium, Zinc, Electrum, Bendalloy and Gold, and do occasional probing attacks with Shardblade. Yeah, they have more options however without the speed they are all much more risky. Their best offensive option (Steel) is negated by reverse Lashings and Plate, so Fullborn would have to get close, break plate and then kill Radiant. On the other hand Radiant has to strike spine or head, and then possibly keep hacking at them to negate healing. I wonder if it would be possible to attach Reverse Lashings to gemstones, similar to Illusions. If so, that would allow Windrunner to partially immobilize Fullborn by trapping him between two Reverse Lashings.

I would also like to issue an apology, one for helping derail, and second to those I may have offended. Personally I would (ethical reasons), I think most of Scadrial would not, at least not yet. I would be ok with experimenting with Hemalurgy on possibly non-sentient animals (or at least those with limited pain sensitivity, which admittedly is difficult to judge). E.g. how would Hemalurgy interact with animals that don't have blood per se, or whose blood is substantially different? Could you spike microscopic organisms? Could you spike single celled organisms such as bacteria? Funnily, if spiking bacteria is possible, this would be a nice way to test if viruses are alive or not Try spiking them and see if it works at least a bit. It would require some way to sense non-kinetic Investiture, which I don't know if there are some. If Harmony split into Ruin and Preservation, bits of Mists could be used to detect if metal is Hemalurgically charged or not, as they would be repelled. Currently, I don't know outside of trying to spike someone (ideally Gold compounder) and see if it works, which is a very bad method.

I would not be so quick to use Wax as an example. The reason is that Wax died 'only' because of damage to his physical body, but his spiritual and cognitive aspects were ok (as much as they could). However, Shardblade specifically severs on all three realms, so in that instance also the Cognitive and Spiritual aspects would be wounded. That could be sufficient to render metalminds inaccessible to Fullborn, and so would kill them outright. Also, somehow Shardblade can sever connection lines generated via burning steel/iron, so that could be a surprise for Fullborn (though it does nothing to negate their speed advantage, which is the decisive factor. Since most of us agree that Fullborn wins vast majority of time (outside of sneak attack), I would propose a single modification: Fullborn without F-steel vs 5th Oath Radiant, I think that could be more interesting match up (provided @Frustration does not mind this shift of subject matter).

We don't know the drawbacks of those yet, so they might end up being good only from pure 'combat' perspective, but debilitating otherwise. I did not mean that pewter makes you reckeless as cognitive effect, but that since you don't feel pain or exhaustion anymore, Mistborn will be doing things that damage them too much. Pewter savants often kill themselves on accident since they overestimate what their body can handle That is what I meant by Mistborn being reckless. Where did Mistborn suddently get acid? And why don't squires have it to splash on Mistborn, since Mistborn is also non-plated foe not much Invested? Let's leave stuff like that out. And squires could heal acid damage, they breathe in Stormlight and get surges and healing. And what is meant by last sentence? But squires can coordinate and team up, Mistborn dealing with 4-5 squires at once + Radiant on top has a lot of problems, and they have no way to forcibly split them up, outside of getting them in bubble with them (which can be minimized by smart positioning on squire end).

Being a donor is described as resulting in illness, depression, reduced capacity to perceive colors/sounds/etc., to perceive other living beings, if the one doing the spiking does not kill you outright (which has not been shown or confirmed to actually result in usable spikes). Warbreaker spoilers You could, if you had unkeyed stores prepared by a compounder on hand, or you were compounder yourself, not everyday things. But it would still result in scar on soul, and you would not be the same. No, it is not like having a knife. To use Hemalurgy you must hurt someone, no exceptions. Knife is a tool with many uses that don't result in harm, Hemalurgy has none. Typically that requires killing someone, so if you want to spike Misting or Ferring for their powers, you must kill them for that. Society where that is common knowledge will have more crime like that, and more crime in general. Again, see analogy of guns and gun crime @alder24 suggested. If you have tool that can be only used to harm someone, having it generally available will lead to more harm.

But Well of Ascension was intentionally designed to do what it does and allowed to do so by Preservation. So I don't think you could replicate that, just by a bunch of Investiture.

Someone has to play the devil's advocate, even if only for the exercise of it. Honestly without ambush I agree, little way to kill Fullborn who is deadly serious and not overconfident. The methods have to rely on Fullborn making a mistake or catching them off-guard somehow. Ah, thanks for correction, it has been a while since reading RoW. Then Windrunner has to set up Reverse Lashing, and hope that Fullborn will run towards him, breaking contact with ground. Though the WoB does not state it is impossible to affect objects on ground with Reverse Lashing, only more difficult. So, I would say possible but would require more Stormlight. The Stormlight would flow from the hand, the hand already contains Stormlight, so I don't think it woudl take appreciable amount of time. Now, breathing in the light probably would, so I think Windrunner has to start with Stormlight already in body to stand at least minuscule chance. Also the point of Reverse Lashing is not to kill Fullborn, just to either a) Get him in air where he can no longer take advantage of F-steel (outside of grappling) and of Bendalloy bubbles (as he would pop them due to movement) b ) Forcibly move him through Shardblade to sever his spine. Question: Can the kill from Shardblade be healed? We know external healing can still do it (if the original end of WoR is to be believed), however if the spirit is separated from the body, then Fullborn cannot access his metalminds no? Oh, my mistake! How could I have overlooked such obvious problem I don't think that is exactly true, i think if you tried to replace body parts with them (i.e. bones) they would get removed when tapping Health, unless you somehow tricked yourself into considering them part of yourself enough. Sure tattoos and piercing don't necessarily get healed, however those don't majorly interfere with function of body. So I think you could get away with some implants, but they would be typically limited. And depending on where you are cut, you cannot access some metalminds, so if the stores in the remaining body parts were insufficient, then you could not actually heal etc. I mean, Kaladins broken legs healed pretty much immediately as well, and so did Shallans head once the bolt was removed. And note that Miles was also savant who needed to tap health at all times, that also affected how quickly he healed. It would not be actual combat, more of an ambush/strafing run that would require some setup. So one shot attempt at killing the Fullborn, if Windrunner misses then Fullborn is aware and the technique cannot be used again.

Am I the only one concerned that no matter how ethically sourced (which, since it mutilates soul is doubtful), Hemalurgic spikes still mutilate the soul of the recipient? Which apparently has consequences after death?

I'd say no, because to Ascend the Shard has to be without Vessel. And the amount of metal required would be far larger than a city, more like planet sized at minimum. Two shards casually created a full planet out of nothing, and still had power left over. So the amount of Investiture they possess is larger than mass of planet, so to store enough wakefullness you would require a lot of Investiture.

There are few ways, though they require Windrunner to get a bit of heads up to start earlier, or for Fullborn to not use their powers as effectively as they could since they could be overconfident (like what happened to TLR). At the end it is just for fun. Sure, and all Windrunner has to do to survive is fly up, because Fullborn cannot fly. Plate is waaay more Invested then TLR's bands, and Vin was at that point fueled by Preservation. Shardplate is outside of that wheelhouse. Theoretically sure, however the metalminds required to store that much of an attribute would be way too large. Bands of Mourning were pretty much full, and they could sustain ~Mach 7 for few seconds. That was ~250x fold increase over regular amount, and we don't even know how much time it took to create. Heat to vaporize the planet would also vaporize the metalminds, killing the Fullborn. This gives hard cap on how much heat Fullborn can give off, let's say about ~3800 Kelvin, just ~15x fold increase over regular human temperature. To become black hole at human size, Fullborn would have to reach mass on order of ~10^27 kg. One, that would again kill them, as it would destroy the metalminds. Two, that is 10^25 fold increase in attribute, waaaaaaaay beyond what Bands of Mourning show is possible to store. Effectively you would need about that amount of metal to get that amount of mass stored. Not exactly possible. Enough pewter to make biceps of that size would result in the body breaking down most likely, there is only so far you can push Feruchemy. Gold would help to some extent, but at that point you are wasting a lot of pewter and a lot of gold, for effect that would last seconds at most. Like I said, Fullborn are overestimated, because people forget Feruchemy has limits some of which cannot be transcended by Fullborn, and because people underestimate the amount of attribute necessary for some of these feats. Windrunner can manipulate pressure to create vacuum, so air friction does not apply. That is one of the few advantages Windrunner has.

True enough, A-pewter stored would be ok to burn like that. But remember that A-Duralumin boosts everything you are burning (and maybe tapping) so you have to be very careful how you use it. But if moved out gradually ahead (i.e. gradually thinning the atmosphere in long cone ahead of Windrunner) than you reduce/remove the sonic boom. Though that would possibly create other effects, though how noticeable difficult to say. In RL, yes, in Cosmere it is more complicated since it apparently works through spiritweb (F-Iron). All feruchemy does is manipulate Spiritweb of the Feruchemist, not physical forces around them. Not good enough. They would need enough bendalloy for hours or days, even Wayne did not have that much. A good nugget is two minutes. Apologies, I did not mean to imply you are doing that (too late in my timezone for this discussion me thinks). Just that it is a thing that happens there, and is happening here with the roles reversed. Even on 4th Oath it is possible see what happened to The Defeated One. That was body touching the floor/ground, only part of the body was affected (again more difficult), and the body was Invested (which is also the case for Fullborn). So I think this is well within scope of powers of 5th Ideal Windrunner. If both are starting from 'relaxed' position, then creating Reverse lashing in hand or on belt is just as fast as tapping metalmind. On the drop off, Reverse Lashing was shown to affect objects tens of meters away (the arrows). And gravity drops off relatively with square of distance typically, which is not that drastic. I see, Fullborn full-industrialist, and with access to Atium to boot! Well then, Radiant clearly wins by taking over the planets (delivering them famous Bridge 4 stew cooked by squires) and then delivering Fullborn slightly off metals to deprive him of powers at just the right time

Alright, sounds good. It makes them fast, but to actually attack the Radiant has to be in the bubble with them, or they have to drop the bubble. So that is severe disadvantage compared to say C-Steel. It would be useful defensive power, but I don't think it can help with defeating Radiant. Other Savantisms, Tin is more hindrance then help, especially against Lightweaver, or really any order that can attack at range. Could help with dodging Shardblade, but Shardplate can still shapeshift and skip, which would confound that. Pewter savantism would also be more hinderance, as Mistborn would be more reckless. Steel/Iron, possibly improved control would be useful, but we don't know what the drawback is. I think squires are a huge help, even for orders where just a couple of them are normal. If you can attack from 3 angles at once, that is difficult to defend against. I don't think paralysis from rioting/soothing is as common an outcome as you are making it out to be. Even Straff was not really fully paralyzed in the moment, nor in the other situations did we see full on breakdowns/paralysis of everyone. Sure some might be hindered, but not to extent that Mistborn can just easily kill them all one by one.

Maybe, but they do it once, and if the hit won't kill Radiant, they are without steel and zinc for rest of the fight most likely. We are talking about speeds that are ~5-10x as fast as Marasi was when tapping BoM, and at those speeds she nearly drained Bands in few seconds. Nope, if force in Reverse Lashing comes from gravity, then Fullborn will be accelerated equally no matter how heavy. That is the nifty feature of gravitational attraction, it is universal. Nope, see above. The don't glow that much, to be visible over the horizon (and if it is day, even then the glow is not that visible). And the Radiant is in plate, where the glow can be suppressed (see what Jasnah did). So no glow. Chromium agreed, electrum, maybe. That could possibly kill Fullborn, A-Duralumin and compounding are not a smart mix per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901). Windrunner achieves these speeds in local vacuum, so maybe no sonic boom? Depends on how exactly that works (i.e. how is the air deflected from the vacuum ) Even so, the sonic boom would come after Windrunner, and if the Fullborn is tapping a lot of F-iron as you say they are, then getting hit by sonic boom won't do much to them. Based on this argument Connection is Connection, same phenomena no matter what kind. Spiritually it is still the same attribute. Seeing/hearing are different organs, Connections are all parts of the same spiritweb. Compounding takes time, a lot of it if you want the sort of stores we are talking about here. But yeah, minute or two should be enough. Sure, I am just doing what most people are doing for Mistborn when discussing Mistborn vs Windrunner I.e. giving the weaker party situational advantages, to see where they can eek out a win. Interestingly, in those discussion Mistborn going for ambush is considered often to be okay tactic. In open battle, the only hope would be either fly up high enough you are out of range, and the try Reverse Lashing Fullborn up, or rocks up and try and hit him to get Fullborn to waste stores. The other option is to immediately create as strong Reverse Lashing as possible, and at the same time summon Shardblade pointed at Fullborn. How much prep time does Fullborn have? And do they own mines and smelter factories?

You contact the hand after getting pulled through Shardblade. Steel+Zinc could work out for dodging, but I don't think they would be fast enough to hit Windrunner moving at ~10 km/s, they would be in range of Fullborn for less then 0.0001 seconds. +Shardplate. That won't necessarily help, if the acceleration is through the Surge of Gravitation then Fullborn would be equally effected no matter how massive, only more Investiture would be required. Might work, might not, depending on the Investiture levels. If they happened to be looking in the right direction at the time, sure. But as @Trusk'our pointed out F-Chromium could help with that. Won't help to move. He would be tapping to some extent, but what is the question. Compounding takes time to perform, so most of the time even Compounder is only tapping or directly burning for using up the Investiture immediately. And electrum won't show nothing if you get hit by Shardblade , at most going limp. Arguably they are, bones have some weight, muscles different. Or even more granularly, different atoms in the body have different weight. I can buy storing Connection to different sorts of places/people/etc. but not that they can just choose what kind of Connection that is. They are Ferring, not Bondsmith. Also, if Bands of Mourning are representative of what possible Fullborn can do, then they are heavily constricted on time. They could perform most of the things people mention here for at most minute or two, for speed more like several seconds. And just to reiterate, I do think Fullborn would win vast majority of time (exceptions being ambush, and possibly some creative usage of Reverse Lashing most likely also in ambush-like manner, or ambush via Shardblade through neck). However I do think that Fullborns are a bit overestimated especially when it comes to Connection and the other more esoteric powers.

Few points: Leeching requires touch, so no it would not do anything to Reverse Lashing, not before getting pulled through Shardblade. True, if Fullborn knew where to look, and if Radiant was approaching from beyond horizon, they would get spotted around ~0.5 second ahead. Not unless they were already tapping, Marasi was running out very fast, and that was ~Mach 7. Same for Zinc, Fullborn would have to be tapping all the time. Admittedly my scenario required kind of an ambush to work, but still Fullborn has no defense against Reverse Lashing. I disagree with that. Yes Mistborn point is true, however, no amount of perception would allow Wax to store only weight from his hands for example, or Wayne only health of his skin for example. In the same way I think you can store only Connection in general. If it is just ability to form connection to certain 'things', then forcing friendship is even more difficult.

But can Feruchemist pick and choose which Connection they store? Kel could only see various Connections because he semi-Ascended at that point, or through Shard intervention. So far we have only seen Blank Connection, even when having 'I am friend'-Connection would have been very useful (i.e. mission to unknown lands where you don't want to fight with natives). What he have seen, and WoBs state does not seem to support the pick and choose interpretation. Just like e.g. F-Iron you cannot store only some Connection, but generally all, In my opinion. The WoB states 'changing connection', which is outside of what Feruchemist can do. They can store and tap what they already have, not modify it. So nope, Fullborn without atium would live as long as healthy human. And Radiant with access to Stormlight would be about as healthy, so it would be a toss up on who dies first. Hold reverse lashing in one hand, Shardblade in the other in front of it, and as you fly by the Fullborn they get pulled by the Reverse Lashing and cut through blade. If that does not work, repeat. Hmm, or generally the Windrunner could possibly neutralize F-steel of Fullborn via dragging them in the air through Reverse Lashing. EDIT: Well it is living plate, so since the spren are still alive, it can move. For regeneration it does require Stormlight. (and possibly if you keep it on all the time it would require some for 'sustanance') Fair enough, I just wanted to understand what angle are we approaching this from.

Ok, there is a WoB that 32 Mistings and Ferrings could possibly create Medallion, so yeah Fullborn probably could as well. However, do we assume they have the knowledge? Because that is a bit question as well. Windrunner knowing what they are doing can create vacuum, and travel at speeds on order of km/s, likely outpacing even Fullborn. I.e. do we assume that both know and can use their powers perfectly and to the fullest?