therunner

Ah, alright. Still, I dispute that Dor powered A-aluminum could be stronger, the fact remains that Unmade could be blocked by fully powered Sibling. Fair.

It is more than just 4 gems, the 4 gems were the add-on created by Melishi to create the shield for 'heart' of Sibling no? Additionally, at full power Sibling's suppression is strong enough to repel Unmade. Even a truckload of Dor is not going to compete with that. Reasonable, makes sense. Yep, I can see that. And then those Dawnshards just force them to avoid one another, since they will both want to protect themselves That requires quite a bit of coordination You need to time your throw just right so that Windrunner is in radius while the effect is on and you have to hit the Radiant while the effect is on. That's...a lot to ask for, you need to carefully aim both throw and shot and do that in ~1-2 seconds? I think the savant bubble would get popped when moving over the aluminum, since suddenly the bubble could not remain 'closed'. That is why I think aluminum tube would pop even already placed bubble.

Basically? I would think of it like in the burned part it gets concentrated to maximum possible value (i.e. the burned part of metal always acts like full metalmind), and the Investiture for that is siphoned off from the rest of metalmind to allow that. Basically, the burned part acts like a sink, or negative pressure area sucking stuff in.

I understand, however the problem is there is another WoB that states that Investiture in metalmind behaves like 'gas' and diffuses https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13238 So then the explanation you propose cannot be correct, since all of metalmind is Invested. My solution is that when burning metalmind, the Investiture gets 'sucked' to the part that is being burned, and this rate is greater then burn rate (hence you can run out of Invested part, but not of metal). Frankly I think Brandon is also partially confused about how exactly it works, so that when answering question it is easy to mix things up like this. Alright, thanks for confirming With speed, yeah there is little Radiant can do. Without speed though, there are limits even if those limits are very high and there are things Fullborn does not have answer to (e.g. Shardblade to head or spine, since that seems to require external Intervention to heal). Getting close to Radiant under such circumstances is dangerous.

I did not remember that either, but I started re-read of RoW yesterday Kaladin states in his first fight with Pursuer still in Hearthstone.

Yeah, but primer cubes turn it into area of effect, so perhaps it smothers its own pulse? It probably depends on what pulses exactly are. I think it is relatively definite, Sibling at full power at the end has more Towerlight available then when he was previously powered only by bits of Stormlight and Voidlight. Hence suppressor effect would be more powerful. We have no clue how density of Dor compares to density of Stormlight power wise, literally none. We expect it to be more dense yes. However, saying that jar of Dor holds more Investiture than a literal godspren that can open Perpendicularity, is ... frankly outlandish. Where is the Mistborn getting lerasium? Hemalurgy would work to improve their strength, that is definite. Though how it would interact with being powered by Dor, I don't know. I can agree that it would block summoning Shardblade, and most likely Surges even of 5th Ideal, that sounds reasonable for the purpose of discussion. But as you say, Radiant can simply walk out, and the cubes are limited to being on the ground, and the area of effect is mostly smaller then suppresor fabrial (leeching cube seemed to have several feet of radius, so I would expect aluminum would have similar). This means that Radiants with Gravitation can mostly avoid the effects by staying in the air and on the move. Chromium would be more useful, but there is a question of how it would interact with Shardplate? It could not leech through it, so what would happen? Yeah, I think back ups are useful And for Radiants with Gravitation, add a small rock so they can lash the raysium daggers. Alright, sounds fun So of course F-steel is useful, however I don't think you could compound with it. Hemalurgy no longer allows compounding due to Identity contamination, and medallions are both less 'personal' and have Identity of their own. So you would be limited to lower speeds, however still quite great Aluminum dueling canes would help, but Shardplate strength is not to be understimated. Shardblade would still act like unbreakable very shard blade Aluminum guns and rifles would be good addition, and against all but Windrunner would help to get through plate (tap F-Iron, push on bullet). Windrunner could use Reverse Lashing to defend against that. I think aluminum would disrupt the bubble even after it has been placed, but admittedly that is speculative. Still they could just have a bunch of them tied to Shardplate, so it at least disrupts savantism bubbles (since those move).

This is not the case, Fused can heal Shardblade cuts, but cut to head, spine or gemheart is instantly fatal even to them, despite having Voidlight. It stands to reason that it would be fatal for Radiants as well, unless external source of healing was available. I think it would be because cuts through head/spine sever the connection to Physical.

If we are going completely wild, I would suggest Radiant equip themselves with a bunch of Raysium daggers to have possibility to drain Mistborn. Also some aluminum tubes, to disrupt bendalloy bubbles.

Ah, I think this is where we have different understanding. Me @alder24 (if I understand them correctly) interpret that in burning of metalmind the attribute gets consumed too, and the power released is only the power from allomancy. Since then total power released should be ~10x to what was stored and allomancy can provide only fixed amount of power to given Metalborn, then you must have variable burn rate depending on the charge in metalmind. Whereas you (again if I understand correctly) come at it from angle that when you burn metalmind you get back the attribute stored in some amount of metal + allomantic power. Is this understanding correct?

And yet aluminum hat is sufficient to block emotional allomancy, and someone in deadplate (or plate that is not their own) cannot use surges even if the armor has cracks. How? There is should not be any Pulses to be detected, since no powers cannot be active within the area of the primer cube? I think it would be accident kind of work like copper, that can also not be detected despite being active invested power. They have all three (Odium/Honor/Cultivation), that is what I meant. Sorry for being unclear. Fair. Depends on the fabrial, those of Sibling covered kilometer sized building. And based on other fabrials, size of area can be changed. I don't think size of spike matter for such purpose, you cannot really destroy Shard via aluminum spike, no matter the size. Good question, I need to re-read cube usage parts. That is not Sibling at full power though, but Sibling pretending to be dead. All fabrials in tower barely work prior to bonding of Sibling, so it stands to reason that the suppression effect would be weaker as well. Sibling creates their own light, couple of jars of Dar are not more powerful then what Sibling can do. They would feasible be more powerful then the suppresor fabrial, but I don't think they would create suppresion effect stronger than Sibling. And we don't know if Dor is actually denser then Stormlight for this purpose. Being stronger would not help being immune to its effects, since your aluminum allomancy is also stronger. Since for regular use Mistborn is both the source and the target, increased strength won't make them immune, since both parts of equation increase. However, once you externalize the effect there is no reason to expect that this particular Invested Art is somehow unique in that it cannot be overcome by more Investiture (or more concentrated effort) like every other Invested art in Cosmere.

I don't think that to be the case, I think the diminishing returns are fixed no matter the storage speed. (Rationale being that the Investiture required to resist the restoring effect of spiritweb on the physical self is the always the same) But let's agree to disagree on this.

But then it would make more sense for Compounders to burn metalminds when requiring a lot of attribute at once, as it is far less wasteful no. Especially since with practice you can regulate the burn rate. However, we don't see that with Miles at all, who burns only to Compound in his spare time.

It is still Invested Art though, not pure aluminum effect. And as we have seen, more powerful Investiture can overpower other Invested effects (piercing copperclouds, inability to heal Shardblade to spine, power-through suppresion fabrial), so depending on how aluminum allomancy can be overcome. Would 5th Ideal Radiant be enough? I don't know, but since 4th Ideal could overcome partially corrupted Sibling suppresion, I would wager that at least to some extent 5th Ideal Radiant could. It depends on what the Investiture does, would it make the effect longer, or could you make the effect stronger? Aluminum as metal effect is not the same as effect of Aluminum in Invested Art. I think it would have to have completely broken section, the shielding effect of Investiture is a field effect, so it would cover cracks. Yep, both of them would have to avoid it. And neither could easily detect it (only Mistborn would now where they threw it initially). I don't think excluding specific types of Investiture would be possible, not with simple primer cubes. More advanced Scadrial fabrials could possibly achieve such effect. While cool, it does not show it is as overpowering effect as aluminum the metal. In fact the opposite, clearly you need extreme skill/amount of aluminum to get more powerful effects. Raboniel is Fused with Soulcasting, for all we know she stared the process of Unmaking the Sibling. In fact I think that is what Sibling states, that if the final node is undone they would be completely Unmade. And Sibling has some measure of control over the fabrials in the Tower, so that could have played a role as well. So it was not simple infusion of Voidlight, but partial corruption of Sibling that would have reversed the suppressor fabrial. Corrupted Spren also seemingly 'only' have Odium's investiture in them, and yet they have dramatically different effects. If more powerful, then shorter lasting. And Radiant on 5th Ideal is strong enough to possibly power-through suppression generated by godspren, which should have more Investiture available then Mistborn with Dor. So, if the primer cube lands in suppressor before turning on, then primer cube is rendered inert no? Since it would be suppressed? Additionally, orders with Gravitation can then easily approach from above, as primer cube won't stay in air long, limiting just ground to being affected. Which reminds me, placing multiple primer cubes with Aluminum would hinder Mistborn mobility, as they could not use any metal within those areas as anchors.

But wouldn't this then imply that if you burn metalmind that has more stored Investiture in it, you get more units of Investiture per second? Since the burn speed is the same, but the amount of released Investiture differs (being 10x + #stored-attribute)

Oh the sights we are gonna see A-Aluminum disrupts only kinetic Investiture, so while Surges would stop working (and fabrials) Shardplate would work (and might possibly shield Radiant in plate). Plus the effect would be temporary, and range on those cubes is only several feets, so if Radiant is running around holding the suppressor fabrial, Radiant still has advantage or can simply move out of range of primer cube. Radiant would be shielded by Shardplate, so they would not get drained. Yeah, but what is stopping Radiant from running outside of area of effect of cubes? It's not aluminum the metal, but Allomantic effect of aluminum, which is far less encompasing and powerful. I think the Voidlight/storlmigh/towerlight are only power source, but it is the make up of the fabrial which determines what powers/Investiture it suppresses. So it would require some prep time on the part of Radiant to have one that suppresses Dor. Aluminum blocks all Investiture and Invested arts, but aluminum allomancy does not. It would still be alomantic effect, so sufficiently powerful Investiture could overcome it, as is typical. Unless the suppressor fabrial effect would overpower the aluminum cube area. But yeah, good tactic. Question though, is the Mistborn standing in that aluminum cube area?

Alright, Let's goooo So, step one, give suppressor fabrial to Radiant. Step two, Radiant wins once they come nearby, since Mistborn now lacks powers. The complication being that suppresor fabrial would have to be Tuned to the proper kind of Investiture Mistborn is using. Second option, blood attractor fabrial. Though it would have to be fueled by a large amount of Investiture to overcome the fact that Mistborn is now heavily Invested (if it would be even possible). And, I don't have much time to think about more possibilities, or how to counter the above (though I am sure there are ways)

Ah, thanks for the information, that will be useful then

I just copied the URL from the browser into the reply window, and it automatically formatted it like that. I don't think I did anything else.

Alright, interesting. I don't think that would actually work, the shadows have to be active possible futures, i.e. there is a future where the Fullborn just stops to tell stuff to past and gets killed/harmed for it. And there have to be a lot of those futures, since the most probable ones are the ones visible. I sincerely doubt that, diagram was effectively result of Shardic intervention, albeit indirect one. Again, we have seen compounded Zinc, and it does not look like that at all. What? How does that relate to the fact that Duralumin wont get you more attribute then was in metalmind? A lot of training, and a lot of Zinc (mainly Zinc though). I could believe Fullborn would pull it off if they constantly tapped F-Zinc at something like ~80x increase, and even then they would have to effectively switch mental task every subjective second (and not even for all metals). That would waste F-Zinc quite fast. At this point Fullborn has to learn Compounding, which can take at least a year or two to learn. Simultaneous compounding of different metals. Switching which metalminds to tap at sub seconds speeds. And they have to Compound in the first place. The prep time Fullborn requires keeps increasing, compared to 4-5 years Radiant requires. If Duralumin would be able to compensate for the attribute compression, it would get consumed incredibly fast then, do you agree with that? What?

Yes, but unless a lot of Investiture went into creating that fake soul, I still think the healing could disrupt it. In your example I think the amount of Investiture used for that soulstamp was sufficient to possibly create at least Misting outright.

The WoB says that Forgery is less stable then Soulcasting, because the actual soul is not changed though. And so the object/sould is actually kind of fighting the change. So if you provided more power to the soul to be as it should be, should that not result in breaking of the Soulstamp? I mean, burning of a metal is enough to disrupt the soulstamp, and there would be less Investiture there then in healing the 'spiking'.

Alright fair enough. Why copper? Also what leads you to that idea? Other metals already store other Cognitive related attributes. How could they turn though? Both steel and Iron work only linearly, away from the Mistborn. So you have no way to give the anchors sideways momentum, outside of hoping for the effect of wind to steer it. You would need at least 3 more anchor in the orthogonal direction, at which point the whole mechanism is even more complicated then horseshoe trick. And that one was already on the very complex side as far as coordination goes. Either way, without F-steel, it is far slower and far less maneuverable than Windrunner (or even Skybreaker). Electrum allows relatively limited communication to past (whatever you can fit into 2-3 seconds, while also doing something else). I forgot about Chromium, thanks, that would be interesting to see. And I don't think Zinc would bring them near Taravangian level (if you are talking about Diagram day), we saw extreme Zinc in BoM, and while impressive, it was nowhere near that. Compounders get stores via burning metalminds, not tapping, tapping cannot give out more than you put in. Problem 1 is unavoidable, D-tapping cannot grant you more Investiture then you put in (since Duralumin does not give you more power, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901 ) Problem 2 is possible to partially circumvent using small metalminds, however, still you will get only sub-second bursts of attribute. You would need to shift which metalmind you are tapping over 10x per second just to maintain the attribute using D-tapping, and you would have to do it for multiple metalminds as well. Problem 3, I don't think either Duralumin or Nicrosil would provide the Investiture necessary, or if they would, then you would run out of Nicrosil/Duralumin nearly immediately, without even tapping the entire metalmind. Again Duralumin does not provide more power (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901). In allomancy there is no compression necessary, and yet both of these metals are fast burning. For Feruchemy, the Investiture requirements to squeeze attribute into sub-second burst would be gigantic. Ah. Though left over tinmind is useless, since it would not be unkeyed, and no one could use it. No problem, I did not mean it badly. Only bringing it to attention. I don't know how it works, but F-Duralumin is used in creation of medallions somehow, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3345

I think the healing would end up disrupting the fake Forgery soul. Healing restores to spiritual ideal, so possibly it would break it apart? Not sure though.

Two, the most recent one is in TLM spoiler area is here And the old one is here

The problem with that line of reasoning is that Mistborn has only two hands, whereas Radiant can carry a couple of pouches of spheres. So, sacrifice Stormlight from two pouches to irreparably damage Mistborn's hands (and cause quite a bit of pain) can be valid tactic.