therunner

Thanks! Not just Kelsier, Vin also marvels at precision Zane has. And it took Wax over 2 decades to learn to set up his steel bubble. Even when using it to move Vin calls Pushes/Pulls 'blunt' things that lack subtlety, which is after ~2 years of experience. There is no reason why she would subconsciously control her pushes when doing it with coins, but not when doing it to move around. However, claiming that at every point where the theory does not match what is in the book, Allomancer was unconsciously doing something that is explicitly stated to be difficult feels like a cop out. Also, even if Allomancers subconsciously limit themselves, that does not explain why Vin can push a coin, and is then suddenly thrown backwards once the coin hits the wall. Or when Kelsier throws coin down in the air and Pushes on it, he feels back reaction only once it hits ground. Both of those examples show that they are pushing hard enough to grant considerable acceleration to themselves (in Kelsiers case the force is ~700N at minimum). You can model muscles like that, modeling entire limbs like that is hard. However, Allomancers only push outwards or pull inwards. The only variables are: 'Strength' of Allomancy (always the same for single user) Mass/weight of user (typically the same for single user) weight of pushed object burn vs flare (unless you claim subconscious control) distance between allomancer and object When allomancer pushes on a coin they have on their person, all variables are basically accounted for.

If you don't argue that is a maximum that is even worse, because the force is far too large. Yes. Ah, true, I forget bullet are quite lighter. However, how did you get those numbers? Running them, the bullet should be moving at ~480 m/s at 10 meters from a gun, and at ~600 m/s at 25 meters. Far larger increase. Initial force does not matter, Allomancer could start with lower force (to avoid being knocked down) and then continue pushing as hard as they can. Even if the coin weight 50 grams, and the constant force of push is ~30 Newtons, at 10 meters the coin would be moving at ~108 m/s, quite fast already. Why are you now arbitrarily limiting maximum force to 140N? Your prior calculation claims that Mistborn can push at coin with ~26kN. In books it is stated that modulating strength of push/pull is very difficult (e.g. Kelsier struggles with it, despite his proficiency), basically the only variation they can do unless they have decades of experience is burn vs flare strength (or possible Hemalurgic enhancements). So if flare is 26kN, regular push would be at very least ~10 kN as well, since Vin quite explicitly is not able to do such fine control of her Pushes/Pulls even well into WoA, so after all the scenes we are discussing so far.

I think Oathbringer, it is discussed in this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e10357). We have to treat entire Cosmere consistently, so for this reason I don't think pushing and pulling can behave like that. Since Brandon felt it necessary to consider the impact of acceleration on human body in Windrunners, but not in Mistborn, I think we can easily say that Mistborn are nowhere near those accelerations. But what is the limiting power then? You argue that maximum force is somewhere around 26 000 N, however if the force has to decrease to account for limited power, this fact alone is meaningless. Vin and Kelsier in their pushing match are clearly struggling, but why would they if they expand same amount of power either way? The force won't magically increase just because there is something stopping the acceleration, if it acts as field as you say per point 3# then force is just gradient of potential. Additional problem is that the force would go down proportionally to increase in speed, which is too slow, e.g. if maximum output of Mistborn is ~1 MW, then the coin would feel acceleration of 130 000 m/s^2 when moving at ~80 m/s. When the coin is nearing sonic speed (~300 m/s), the acceleration would still be ~33000 m/s^2, and the force would be still larger than air drag (that being ~80 N ). We could set maximum power output lower, but we would still run into issues that in some situations the equations match what is in the books, but at others don't. Final problem is the simple fact that Wax pushes on bullets to considerably increase their speed. If there is maximum power output that stops Mistborn from launching sonic coins, then Wax could not feasibly accelerate his bullets with pushes, because they are already moving at those speeds. So the 'maximum power output' hypothesis does not match what is shown, as AoL directly contradicts it.

Shards can see the future, and they also only see possibilities. However, this could be because of other Shards. But Hmm, good point. I retract my statement. I was thinking that since AI in Cosmere would require proper spiritual aspect per WoB, that means objects don't have spiritwebs. But it probably is more of a 'type' (for a lack of better word) of spiritweb. Well, body is 3D object, it literally cannot fit in 0D point. However, apparently more recent WoB claims person can exist in SR, but "It's weird" (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/404/#e13522). So perhaps it is less that you exist as 3D entity in SR, and more that you get 'encoded' into SR information, your Connection changes, and then you are 'decoded' back into PR? So you 'passthrough', but as information, not as material entity. If you map sphere minus point to CR continuously, the entire boundary in CR would be points that are infinetesimaly close in PR. But in CR they would lead to different locations, and are in fact hugely far apart. And mapping @idanstark42 proposed would require that all of those boundary points in CR are the same, but they are not. This is the problem. How do you mean? Higher dimension won't solve this problem, the problem is fundamental to the fact you are trying to map two surfaces of different topologies, which cannot be done continuously.

That would be insufficient. Cognitive shadows are formed from infusion of large amount of Investiture to the cognitive/spiritual aspect, Connection alone is not enough. So far every single example of CS involved either Shardic intervention (Fused, Heralds, Returned, Kelsier) to provide necessary Investiture and changes or Yumi spoilers Possible exception to this are Shades, however they are clearly not 'full' CS based on their behavior. WoB on necessity of large amount of Investiture to remain as CS

Large assumption of this is also whether or not Hemalurgically granted powers can even be stored in Nicrosilmind in the first place. The powers are held within the spike, not within the soul directly, so that is an issue. From what I am seeing, there are only RAFO's on what would happen. Also Blanking your Identity won't necessarily blank the spike (I'd argue it won't affect the spike at all).

I got what you meant, I just don't think that is what is happening. Allomancers are specifically pushing from the center of self (typically middle of chest) to center of self to object. So based on that force should not be distributed. Second, if literal Surge of Gravitation causes g-forces despite literally having no reason to, I doubt that steelpushing/ironpulling won't. Perhaps eventually he will change his mind, but so far it does not seem to be the case. But at the end of the day, rule of cool will win over physics any day. So if Allomancer needs to push with gigantic force, they will. And if Surgebinder has to greatly accelerate over short distance, they will do so and won't faint, despite smaller accelerations having impact on them. Thanks for the graph, I did not notice it before. However, if anything the graph shows that Mistborn cannot accelerate as fast as your calculation estimated (i.e. ~52 G's when flared). If Vin jumped off with 26 G's (since she was pushing as hard as she could, but it was not explicitly said she was flaring), then she would experience over 20 G's for over 0.2 seconds, which is beyond human tolerance in perfect conditions per the graph. And this is with assuming exponential decay of the force, not just 1/r^2. The graph (and the original book) state that human in perfect conditions can withstand 20 G's for about 0.1 second of vertical acceleration, and even than there is risk of injury. Vin is decidedly not in ideal conditions, and even if A-Pewter doubles resilience to injury, she would be over the time limit and over the acceleration for that time limit. Flared steeljump would be vastly beyond what is survivable for human based on your calculations, as 52G's is not even on the graph. Edit: Second line of argument against even the revised strength, is the very simple fact that if flared Steel can apply 26000 N to a small coin, that coin would have giant acceleration. Even if we assume it is very heavy (e.g. 100 grams), then the acceleration applied to it will be 260 000 m/s^2), which is definitely far beyond what Mistborn do with the coins. They don't push coins to supersonic speeds, and these speeds would be far beyond that, since 0.0015 seconds of that force would accelerate the coin to ~360 m/s, beyond sound barrier. And drag forces prior to sound barrier would be far too small to reduce the strength of the push, even with large coin with radius of 2 cm). So I don't think even the revised calculation is realistic for strength of steelpush, as the force 26000 Newton is simply far too large for everything else we see Steelpushes do. Oh I know exponential won't fix the issue of her reaching equilibrium, the point was that if we take your calculation of strength of steelpush as max output, then the only way that scene could even begin to make sense is if steelpushes weaken exponentially. Additional modifications would be required, or we have to headcannon Vin as unconsciously backing off. However, since we know that Steelpushes have finite range (i.e. you can push only on objects that are so far from you) than modeling that with exponential decay is reasonable, as we model forces with such behavior that way IRL. Even assuming that flared Steelpush applies circa ~3000 Newton on coin is way too much. Coin weighing 100 grams would be accelerated with 30 000 m/s^2. Under such force, even assuming exponential decay in strength (exp(-x/8)), the coin would reach sound barrier in about 0.015 second. And that is assuming heavy coin of 100 grams. You could make argument that typically Mistborn push on multiple coins, so the strength get divided over them. In that case, if they were typically pushing on ~50 coins at once, those coins would achieve speeds of about ~85 m/s in circa 0.04 second, at distance of ~20 meters.

Fair enough, I agree. The issue is more retrocausality, i.e. Kaladin is so good with spear when young, because he will be very good with spear (to some extent). I.e. you can have sort of retrocausal echoes, through SR. Per Brandon it should not break causality directly though. I agree with most of the points, with two corrections regarding last points: Objects can be Invested even without having spiritweb (e.g. metalminds, gems). The energy in Invested arts typically comes from Investiture, not spiritweb (spiritweb being only a conduit for Investiture). The only exception known so far being Feruchemy, where bulk of Investiture is from spiritweb. Additionally, spiritwebs are made out of Investiture. Could be a way to look at it, though it seems very complex. What would be the advantage of this viewpoint? No, all that exists are QFTs (in that framework). So you cannot have other objects. There are some non-Lagrangian theories, but I am not well versed in that area. Additional argument for usage of QFT is the fact that PR is 'just' our world + Investiture stuff, and since QFT is good for description of our reality, so it should be good to describe large part of PR too. Body cannot be there, but that does not mean QF's cannot be there. If SR has zero spatial dimensions, body could quire literally not be there, but there could be quantum 'field' over that point. If we want to describe PR with QFTs, we need to describe stuff from SR in terms of QFs as well (or at least classical field if we don't care about dynamics too much, and treat SR as background field). As far as we know, yes. Yes, but then you are no longer mapping sphere to plane, but sphere minus some point. This is problematic condition, since different points around specific subastral lead to different subastrals (see map of Rosharan CR). The mapping probably does work somewhat like that, I agree that the second options seems more appealing, especially since the dimensions are somewhat separated. (note that two R^{3,1} subspaces is the same thing as R^{3,1}x{C,P}, if you ignore the larger structure of R^{4,1}. Under this, the perpendicularity works quite well as ER-wormhole connecting two subspaces. Theoretically we could plug in string theory, and treat PR and CR as 4-branes, but frankly I think that is overkill (more of a fun thought ) Indeed, but partial picture is better than none If I were to push for SR to have at least partially separate temporal dimension, I would suggest that PR, CR and SR are all subspaces of R^{4,2} with certain relations between them. The discussion in this WoB implies that particular features of CR are result of thought, CR itself is not (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87/#e5671). Specifically the part where Brandon talks about island that no one knows and things about would slowly vanish into the CR. So CR as space exists independently of perception, but its features are result of perception and thought. The WoB here (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395/#e13066) says that Realm all exist since 'Big Bang'. Again, Allomancy is Invested Art i.e. manipulation and usage of Investiture to achieve effects (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15257) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15257), manifestation of Investiture is different way of saying the same thing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14446). Allomancy is the same category as Surgebinding on Roshar, a magical system of using Investiture. For example, Metallic arts are not fundamental, they were created (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176/#e8486) when Scadrial was created. If Scadrial was destroyed, and Harmony left for different planet, Allomancy could stop existing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15703). All the magic arts are tapping into same underlying mechanism (e.g. being powered by Investiture, metals affecting them etc.), but they are not the Investiture itself. But Stormlight, Breaths, Godmetals are Investiture and existed since the moment Shards did. We even see Allomancy be powered by different Investiture in TLM, when they use Dor jars. Just like Surgebinding uses Lights to be powered. It is not purely lingual conflict. We know that Lights/Breaths/Mists/Dor/Godmetals are Investiture, we are told this both in-world and out. Same way, we know that Allomancy/Steelpushing/Surgebinding/Awakening etc. is not Investiture, but Invested Art, i.e. usage of Investiture to achieve some effect. Again, this is confirmed both in-world and out.

Yep, you could and that would be accurate. Problem is that the very question in the WoB is ill-posed. There is no such thing as 'matter-energy' equivalence, there is only mass-energy equivalence. If you take it in this looser sense, that there is additional field, than that alone is not enough to claim it should be anyons. But that relies on building more speculative layers on top of what is already shaky foundation. The WoB can also be interpreted simply that there is a field, called Investiture field and Invested particles can under certain conditions be created from PR fields. Continuity, and interaction. We know that PR, CR and SR interact together, and can be traversed. We see people in CR, so that implies that basically all PR field should extend into CR as well (otherwise Investiture field has to be able to fully simulate all of the PR fields on its own, since people's bodies and objects continue to function as in PR, which just means that Investiture field would contain a copy of Standard Model a pointless complicaiton). SR might be traversable (in the sense you go through it, but cannot stop there), so that would imply that PR (and so CR) fields should extend there as well. Thanks! Except we know that CR is fundamental part of reality, and part of it exists even without being perceived (e.g. empty spaces, spaces between populated planets). CR is shaped by Perception but is not created by it. Apparently you walk in any direction, and eventually you will get 'off-planet'. You won't be able to have smooth field inside each subastral, as I would expect that set of smooth functions over sphere won't be a subset of smooth functions over a bounded area in R^2 (too lazy to do proof, but topology alone would most likely present obstruction). So there will be smooth objects/fields in PR that cannot have smooth reflection in CR. Additionally, any time some person crosses over the 'least perceived' line in PR, that persons CR representation would suddenly vanish and appear elsewhere, so you have non-local process to deal with (if you treat CR separately). Yeah, I spoke hastily. From what we see Steelpushing works somehow by establishing Connection line (the blue line Allomancer sees), and then doing something to that Connection (probably something like modifying the Connection to say "we are further apart", and then the SR filters to PR through CR). Similar for Lashing as you say. That is not true. We know that Stormlight (Any-light) is Investiture (specifically Gaseous one), it has been stated both in-world and by author. I mean, we literally see Stormlight stream into PR from SR in Oathbringer and any other time Dalinar opens Perpendicularity. Same goes for Dor and for Godmetals, both in- and out-world they are stated to literally be Investiture. So yes, all of that is Investiture itself. And all of that acts like fermionic matter, so assuming Investiture field is fermionic is a natural starting point. Also, outside of Godmetals, all of the above are also seen in CR, so same Investiture field is also present there. That does not make much sense. That is like saying that e.g. computer is charged particle in the same way electron is. Steelpushign/Lashing/Awakening are applications of Investiture, not Investiture itself. All of them use it to do what they do, but they are not the thing itself. That Investiture exists in all three realms? Same way living being do (in Cosmere)? No, SR has temporal dimension (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6129 + things inside decay over time), and is 'space-less' at the same time (other WoBs). The SR and time is weird in that it allows to break causality to some extant, despite future not being fixed (seemingly). But it is misleading to label those properties 'spatial dimensions', because those explicitly are not there. Same way we don't say that our universe has e.g. 15+1 dimensions because of the SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1) fiber bundle over it (ignoring fermionic fields for simplicity). Geometrically yes, the entire bundle would have those dimensions, but 12 of those are decidedly not the same thing as 3+1 space-time dimensions. So based on the above, at most we can look at SR as one dimensional structure over which there is something very complicated encoding all of the spiritwebs. Simple, such interactions is not possible. Any and all terms of Lagrangian must be scalar in the end, so all the indices must sum away. This means that e.g. bosons and fermions interact (on tree level) solely via 3-point vertex (one boson, two fermions). This means for example that e.g. for electron-positron pair production you will always need two photons (ignoring weak interaction for the moment). You can describe scattering of particle via external field this way as well, one fermion is then incoming particle, and the second is outgoing, with the boson being photon mediating the interaction. Regarding spin conservation, there is no such thing. What is conserved is total angular momentum, sum of spin and orbital angular momentum. So e.g. for pair production the electron and positron can come out in particular configuration (p-wave) where they carry orbital momentum. No they cannot. You always have to cut them somewhere to do this mapping, and so it is not smooth mapping. The second you do a cut on one of the objects or remove some point, you no longer have smooth map (e.g. stereographic project is a map from sphere minus one point) If torus and sphere could be smoothly mapped to a plane (they cannot) that would mean they have same topology, which they clearly don't. If Feruchemy can change Identity smoothly it would have to be continuous property. The 2D part is more the fact that in the end, all the invariant charges are effectively scalars and independent of each other. Here we would have invariant charge which is not scalar, which I am not sure is possible. Glad you are enjoying this and finding it useful

But radiation is also matter, radiation is not 'energy' in any sense of the word. That is why it is misleading. Well, I would say that having some fields only exist in one part of reality and not other, when those parts of reality are causality connected is very artificial construction. Sure, it could be that, but it is oddly restricting. i would look at it that there is some constraint or reason for why e.g. photon field is not excited in SR. What is that WoB, I don't recall it. Notably entities don't look into the future per se, they see possible futures (or more specifically the likeliest + those aligned with Intent of viewer). But bringing that into discussion would basically end it, since it implies that Cosmere is not deterministic. (alternative being that all futuresight is some 'natural' simulation which sounds awkward). That is basically the same description, e.g. you can look at R^{3,1} as R over R^{2,1} with some additional structure (connection etc.). But CR runs very quickly into a serious problem, if you try to keep all properties stated in the books, that being that planets are mapped to 2d planes in CR which is geometrically not possible to do. So you will end up with situation where 2 points that are close on planet in PR are gigantically far apart in CR, and this is largely arbitrary. So the mapping will inevitably have discontinuity, which makes description in terms of smooth fields impossible. I feel you are mixing two distinct things here. Stormlight/Voidlight/Dor/Godmetals etc. all are Investiture those would the actual Investiture field being excited. Since they behave like fermions, they should be fermionic in nature. Steelpushing/Lashing/Awakening is not Investiture but using Invesiture to act on other fields (e.g. electromagnetic(pushing/pulling), gravitational(lashing), primary e.m. but possibly self-interaction with Investiture field too (awakening). All this says is that Investiture field interacts with EM field, with metric (or connection) field and with itself, but does not speak ot its nature. This immediately runs into the issue that per Brandon SR does not have spacial dimensions, only temporal one. So you cannot have anyons at all, as those are restricted to only 2 spatial dimensions. No, all it requires is that the QF interacts with both bosonic and fermionic fields, which is rather common situation (all non-abelian gauge fields do this). That would not work, at least not with smooth map. Distinct homotopy classes cannot be mapped smoothly one into another, so you will change a lot more than metric/Riemann tensors, you will be changing the underlying topology of the manifold in your solution. And since that cannot be done smoothly, you cannot do it in unique fashion, e.g. once you map spiritweb to plane, you have lost information and can no longer recover the original state. I don't think you need it as its own QF, just as another property of Investiture field. E.g. quark field has charge, spin, color, flavour. Investiture field would have Intent, Identity and bunch of other properties. The only 'issue' is that the Identity property has to be continuous (probably, depends on how F-Aluminum works) has to be at least 2 dimensional in nature, which is a rather unique thing when it comes to 'charges' (honestly not sure how that woudl work, if it even could, maybe have two 1 dimensional charges, which however have some inter dependency? sort of like spin-statistics). I thank you, this is quite fun In the near future I sadly won't have time required for it, I am already quite stretched as is (work+school+trying to maintain social life ). But I would be happy to advise, and offer constructive criticism/play devil's advocate. All we can say about group G based on information we have, is that it should have U(4) as normal subgroup. The elements of U(4) that correspond to Intents (not Shards, those are 'just' all of the Investiture with given Intent in this model) would be the generators, by construction (i.e. we notice that there are 16 Intents which charge Investiture, so we look for group with 16 generators).

Ah, that does make sense. I would recommend using the proper terminology (even if it requires additional explanations for laymens) instead of misusing terms like 'matter' and 'energy', as that just leads to pseudo-science propagating through population. I would add that while at first glance yes, fermions are 'matter' particles and bosons are 'force' particles (more appropriate then energy particles I would say), even humble proton is a mixture of both fermions and bosons, and in fact most of its mass comes from gluons not fermions. In other systems, you have composite bosons that are actually bound pairs of fermions, so fermions can also act as 'force' carriers. So ultimately, separating particles in such a way does not make proper sense. Investiture does not come from SR, it is just mostly there. Since we see e.g. Stormlight in PR and CR, that means that Investiture field exists also in PR and CR. Holistically, you should look at the entire construction of PR+CR+SR as the 'space-time' you want to model, and all quantum fields are over this compound entity. In such a constructions you would get something along the lines of ~{R^{3} x R^{3} X {0}} X R (with appropriate metric), where the first is PR, the second term is CR and the last is SR, with common time dimension (though theoretically you could have two time dimensions, one for PR+CR and one for SR). The fact that Investiture can create both fermions and bosons does not imply that it must be anyon, just that it must interact with both fermionic fields and bosonic fields. The fact that Investiture does seem to saturate would suggest that it is fermionic, however. That is okay, currently there are 16 Shards, so U(4) could be a way to describe it. More in-depth answer would require some form of symmetry breaking of a greater symmetry group G, of which e.g. U(4) would be surviving subgroup. The particular combination of generators that would survive the symmetry breaking would then correspond to the 'Intents' of the created Shards, and symmetry breaking would correspond to breaking of Ado. I am not sure homotopy would be a good property to correspond to Identity. Remember that Identity can be stripped from the spiritweb, without heavily altering the spiritweb as a whole. That suggests that it is not some global property, but property that is constant over the spiritweb.

Interesting ideas! One note before digging into more details, Koloss are not 'just' spiked humans, they are Hemalurgic construct, i.e. they are basically a different species all-together. Now the fact that what the do get is done solely through Hemalurgy does show it can be done, that does not mean it could be done with a single spike, but possibly might. Broadly speaking I agree that most of these would/should be possible with very good knowledge of Hemalurgy. Though I don't think you would be able to get full blown immunity to exhaustion, resistance yes. Minor correction, Koloss don't have Blessing of Potency, Blessing are specifically Kandra spikes prepared in some special fashion. Since most of the above could be stolen from human it might not have to result in too overt physical changes (unless you straight-up spikes yourself with strength). Those that are more complicated modifications (e.g. changes to digestive tracts) might require multiple spikes however, and would change subject into Hemalurgic construct. These I think while plausible would certainly result in relatively large physical changes. You need to grow the necessary organ to possess the sense, and since the additional senses would come from non-human species, the resulting changes would be ... unpleasant (as e.g. Chimeras demonstrate). Also, detecting movement of individual atoms is...well not possible. You won't grow anything sufficiently subtle for that. I won't comment on the others as I don't feel I know enough to do so.

Correction, anyons are not a third kind of particle, nor is there any range of 'energy to matter'. Anyons are simply particles that can have arbitrary spin, not just multiples of 1/2 like in 31 dimensional space-time (bosons and fermions). It has nothing to do with matter or energy. Strictly speaking, energy is simply a property of matter. Spiritual Realm is not 2D as far as we can tell based on WoBs. If anything it is spaceless, but not timeless, so it would be 1D. But broadly speaking yes, Investiture should be a new kind of quantum field, that has at least 16 distinct charges. From that point of view we could try and guess that the symmetry group of U(4) which has 16 generators, and so could plausibly act as gauge group for Investiture field. Though interestingly enough, once used by a specific person it gets locked to that person, which implies existence of some other charges that are basically infinite (since different people would have different Identities).

Thank you @alder24 for explaining it better than I did! That is indeed what I meant

...That is not how Newton's 3rd Law works. There is always equal and opposite force acting back on you. If Vin is pushing the coin with force F, and we assume Newton 3rd Law holds, then the coin pushes back on Vin with force -F. Wall or no wall. That is why that particular scenario does not work.

We don't know that they have greater luminosity, only that they appear brighter. Gems are typically cut to remove flaws, and those flaws can scatter light which can cause it to diffuse and appear less bright than if it was more focused and clear. Additionally, I only found references to larger stones glowing brighter, not better cut stone glowing brighter. Ultimately this is pointless discussion. The WoB is clear, Stormlight decays and that is why it glows. And the decay is not the same thing as leaking.

Thank you! Ah yes, you are correct. I was thinking of increase in momentum, not energy. 210g's is barely survivable. In the single confirmed survival the incident led to victim needing 18 months for recovery. That is beyond what Pewter would help with, it does not increase resilience that much. And the G-force is not distributed all over the body, that is what makes it a g-force and why it's dangerous. 52G's is more reasonable, and certainly survivable, though it would/should knock them out. However the acceleration is still too high with what we see in other instances (e.g. taking few moments to jump ~30 meter wall when pushing off a coin). If we assume she was not flaring, and that the A-pewter rule (flare about doubles your output) holds, then she would have pushed off with 26 g's. At that point she is certainly untrained person. Untrained person can experience G-LOC (loss of consciousness due to g-forces) between 4-6 g's if they are sudden. Even if she is flaring pewter (which is not said) and pewter doubles all physical attributes (which is apparently not the case), she should still lose consciousness at ~18g's. But instead she does not describe any symptoms whatsoever. Combined with her description of flight up, I don't think she was pushing off with more than low G's. Alternative explanation is that the force of the push decreases exponentially with the distance, for F=F_0 * exp(-x/7.59) you get that (x is distance in meters) at 30 meters, 26 000 N is reduced to about ~1g so she would be balanced (as we see). One additional note, in the scene in TFE where Vin first jumps using a coin (chapter 8), she mentions that she decelerates as the line grows sufficiently weak. But at the same time she simply stops eventually, left hanging over the line. That deceleration (despite pushing) implies that the force of the Push is less then gravitational force, but at the same time the force of push must be equal to gravitational force once Vin reaches peak. So the force would have to decrease with distance, and then increase again. Or we can say she was unconsciously modulating strength of her push.

It does not. The point is that you don't shove air with the same force you would shove the wall, so you don't experience the same pushback.

The light is less scattered so they seem brighter/sharper?

We are not dealing with infinite energy supply. Feruchemists have access only to what they store, which is very much finite. Yeah, in which case momentum is not conserved in the 'mechanical' sense, but because the magic strips and adds momentum to the mass being stored/tapped as needed. But like I said, it is an good solution to the frame of reference issue, it just means Investiture must do more work behind the scenes.

Oh, I misunderstood then. Though specifically only velocity due to push would count for the purpose of power, not velocity of the object in general. The way you phrased it it sounded like if I throw a coin and then push it, vs. pushing a stationary coin, one would take more work to accelerate than the other (which yes, due to wind resistance, but that is a different conversation). EDIT: Oh, interesting. Would you mind sharing the calculation details? I will say that this is one of the situations which raises an issue (i.e. is internally inconsistant). If Vin weight ~50 Kg, then such force applied to her would give her acceleration of astonishing 2100 m/s^2, i.e. 210 G's. That would kill her on the spot, if she tried to launch herself with this strength (i.e. when flaring). And this is without A-Duralumin. Additionally, it would let her accelerate to far higher speeds than what we see A-Steel can do. e.g. 0.01s would lead to velocity of 21 m/s, which is already an upper edge of what Mistborn can do period.

Good set of notes! One thing, where does this assertion come from? I don't recall anything in the books mentioning that or hinting at this, so I am curious what motivated it.

As far as we know should work

No the difference is that you don't actually apply the same force to the air as you do the the wall/ground. But with Vin/Mistborn she is applying the exact same force to the coin, so she should experience the very same reaction whether the coin hit the wall or not. Since that is not what we see, 3rd Newton law is not applicable for the situation. The key difference is that Vin is always pushing on the coin with equal force, but the person is pushing against two different things with two different forces (air/wall).

You misunderstand the WoB. The Stormlight leaking out is not the same thing as Stormlight decaying. Stormlight in a gem both leaks (due to flaws in crystal structure) and per the WoB also decays (which produces light). They are two different and independant processes. So if you break gem, Stormlight escapes/leaks out but won't suddenly magically decay faster, so you would not get a burst of light. Same way, quality of gem has no effect on Stormlight decaying, as the decay is property of Stormlight not of the gem.