Trusk'our

There's a fine little WoB that says anything that lets you see into the SR will aid in knowing where to place Hemalurgic spikes. I had still kind of dismissed gold Allomancy for its use here, but I think I see a possibility now. If gold Allomancy shows you a different self you could have become, does that mean it can show you a version of you that bears Hemalurgic spikes and their placement? For example, let's say an Auger had the opportunity to use Hemalurgic spikes on themself to become a construct, but turned it down. If they burned gold later and saw how things could have gone, maybe they could see a version of themselves with a spike configuration stable enough not to instantly collapse (or else the shadow couldn't show that timeline, since you'd be dead). Plus, they could experience that version's eyes and thoughts, allowing them a more solid understanding of the consequences of that form before just choosing to go through with it.

Identity has been a rather difficult thing to understand for me, but I've come up with another proposal for its function. We know that Identity acts as a marker for your Investiture, so when a Feruchemist stores an attribute it's keyed to them. I like to think of this as a radio frequency, where the Investiture of the Metalmind and the Investiture of the Feruchemist are in tune, possibly like how Navani was able to move Stormlight from one Gemstone to another via frequency manipulation. We also know that Identity develops as an entity gains sentience and that this cognition can be lost alongside that Identity. Lifeless and highly-Invested Awakened objects have a separate Identity from their Awakener, the Malwish medallions have an Identity that lets them act more independently, and the loss of Connection and Identity for the Singers rendered them obedient as well as very dull of mind. This could also help explain why Hemalurgic constructs are so vulnerable to control, particularly Koloss- the spikes must bypass their Identity to function, which creates a road for other Investiture to enter. A weakening of the base Identity (like with Koloss in Era1 or Charred) makes it much easier to take control as well, as there's less resistance. Identity can be affected by appearance and is part of why you appear as you do in the Cognitive Realm, but blanking it isn't enough to alter how tapping health would affect you. Lastly, we know from Shai that Identity is constantly shifting and evolving. I think that this is because Identity is an emergent property of your Connections, with your Spiritweb comprised of Investiture, which is shaped and given context by Connection, which your Identity attunes its frequency to. Your Identity and Connection are very closely related, so much so that Hemalurgic duralumin affects both. So, I think that Identity is like a frequency that your soul vibrates to, kind of like a Rhythm but instead of being the tune of a general spiritual concept (which is what I'm guessing Rhythms are) it is your own special spiritual ideal. It determines one's autonomy and independent thought, and weakening it makes you more susceptible to control from outside sources. It can change based on Connections you have. It seems to be an emergent property of many Connections coming together, seemingly like how consciousness is an emergent property born of many thoughts (not trying to advocate this outlook on consciousness, just using it as the best explanation I can find), and can be suppressed independently from Connection, though Connection seems to influence it as a more base-level attribute. Based on these facts and guesses, I think that messing with Identity can be used primarily to affect Investiture compatability (like with tapping others' Metalminds or Hemalurgically Compounding), contribute significantly to mind control (as with Hemalurgic constructs, Slaveform Singers, and Charred), add to autonomous thought/action (Awakened Metalminds and other Invested machines), or possibly create hive-minds (like with Sleepless). I still wonder whether physical alterations are viable through Identity manipulation, but I'm starting to doubt it somewhat. Any thoughts? I'd love to update this with ideas and information others can bring in

Good point. I will say though, could this just be due to mental limitations of Koloss biology, or because the changes wrought from severe Spiritweb damage can cause memory loss? TSM spoilers: Not saying Identity alteration can't be what causes it, only that there may be other noteworthy possibilities.

Do you mean this one? Though I suppose if your appearance in the Cognitive Realm is based on Identity then this makes sense. I'm usually just hesitant to jump into saying "this is what this attribute does" as it has large ramifications and there are plenty of alternatives. Hmm, could be. Maybe if the bond was already in place you don't need the cracks still? That could be awesome actually, as you could form a web of Connections between people by temporarily spiking them (and they use Emotional Allomancy on each other), then they remove the spikes afterwards and become immune to outside control while maintaining the previously established bonds. I thought she just kept the earring pretty much all of the time and felt the extra pressure from that. The only time it was gone was when TLR ripped it out at the end, right? (It's been a while since I read TFE) That's a fair point, but from Sazed's remarks in SoS it didn't seem like he thought one spike would be enough for control. He isn't perfectly knowledgeable though, and she did have Trellium, so it's not really that useful.

I do not believe this to be the case: Spook immediately became free from Ruin's manipulation after removing his spike in HoA. Kandra also become free from control when only bearing one of their spikes, though admittedly only Bleeder has been seen to do this and she had Trellium backing her up too. I think the cracks the spike makes are inherently part of the spike's function- the spikes acts as an entrance for its Investiture and the host's Spiritweb, so removing it removes that entrance as well. Do we know that Identity loss happens to Koloss? It could, but I don't believe we have enough evidence at this point to say that confidently. Honestly, I don't feel like we know hardly anything about Identity still, other than the fact that it keys Investiture to you, can affect your accent when using Connection translation, and can be tangentially related to your appearance.

Yes, gold shadows are useful for making Soulstamps and blanking Identity makes it easier to Forge you. As such, the Forger would have a significant advantage over self-manipulation via Forgery than anyone else. However, we have a WoB directly saying that, unfortunately, you cannot Forge an Allomancer to have different powers. There is a more recent WoB countering this somewhat, saying that you merely need an extra infusion of Investiture from an external source, so maybe the Connection isn't an issue and it's more a matter of needing lots of raw power, something Forgery typically lacks. Personally, I don't think so. I don't know that aluminum can hold an Invested charge at all, so blanking might be the only possibility for a Trueself Ferring. I think that a Soulstamp's effects are also way beyond the scope of just Identity, so even if you could store in an Aluminumind you wouldn't keep the effects. Still, for vanilla Forgery you have a pretty big edge, so it's still a good combo, if rather difficult to occur naturally.

Welcome to the Shard @Pianoboy! There's a forum here where you can introduce yourself and where we can get to know you a little better I don't believe that taking human attributes is within Atium's focus. Based on the Hemalurgy table, it seems more like a wildcard for Invested powers, while Lerasium takes all human attributes. I believe that Trellium is similar to Atium in function, as we've seen it grant powers, but we've also seen it warp individuals into monstrosities as well. This is why I propose either that Hemalurgic metals are more versatile in what they can take from the Spiritweb, or that perhaps the Bindpoint from an Inquisitor spike can make a monstrosity. Possibly both, though again, these are just ideas and not confirmed. That's certainly a possibility. We don't really know how nicrosil Hemalurgy works right now, only that it targets more general Investiture and not specific powers. Minor Cosmere references: Agreed. Since these powers are Investiture manifesting on certain points in the Spiritweb, taking the Spiritweb fragments containing powers from other systems is totally possible, though where those Bindpoints are specifically isn't currently known. Not necessarily. Rashek was able to figure it out within a few minutes of holding the WoA power. Not repeatable, true, but it lays a foundation for alternative methods of accessing the information. Basically, anything that allows you to see into the SR can help you figure out Bindpoint placement (extra Investiture from spikes, Connection boosting to Ruin via F-duralumin maybe, A-electrum, A-gold probably if looking at alternative possibilities for yourself, F-chromium, Perpendicularity bathing, Atium, or Sazed whispering it in your ear if he really wanted. Or, maybe Discord. . .). Though, I will say I don't think Hemalurgy will ever be a "good" Investiture or be used completely responsibly- it's simply set up in such a way to give those with little morality a major edge in its use. Still interesting to think about though.

Invested Arts all have an Intent based on their Shard, which determines how that Investiture is obtained. However, I think each system also has something else- a Focus. The Focus of an Invested Art, well, focuses the Investiture, making it more efficient. Also, I think that a Focus for a system is based on the planet rather than the Shard- Odium's Investiture seems to share Roshar's Focus and Autonomy's systems of Aviar versus Sand Mastery and Starmarks seem to be different. Roshar's Focus seems to be gemstones, which naturally hold Invested Lights, can be grown by local fauna (which seriously aid in bonding Spren, something that is possible but difficult without a Gemheart), and can even help rececitate Deadblades enough to bond them. Nalthis's Focus is life. Awakening an organic object is orders of magnitude easier than Awakening something like a sword, and Lifesense works way more easily on truly living beings than Awakened entities (which requires the Seventh Heightening). Furthermore, using a portion of your own body, like your hair, can make Awakening cheaper. Awakening a Lifeless with their own Breath (using the natural Connections) is more efficient, making them more cognizant. Scadrial's Focus is metal. Obviously. Allomancy can draw Investiture from Preservation by metabolizing it, Feruchemy can use it as a battery, and Hemalurgy can use it as a scalpel. Pushing and Pulling on metals Allomantically is way easier than non-metals, probably because natural Connections are already in place. Metals shine brightly in the Cognitive Realm, likely because of their Connection to the system's Investiture. I would compare this to flowing water: a Focus is like water that's flowing downhill and has made troughs in a mountainside, making it much, much easier to flow through again. Trying to use Investiture without its Focus is more like trying to push water uphill- possible, technically, but horribly inefficent and requiring way more force to achieve. Maybe possible by getting so much water it can make a wave and splash upwards (Awakening metal or Pushing/Pulling on non-metals), but undesirable. Thoughts?

Hemalurgy's a bit different than Allomancy or Feruchemy. It's way more complex, especially considering that there are between two and three hundred Bindpoints in the human Spiritweb. It feels like Hemalurgy works on a more fundamental level than Allomancy or Feruchemy, being able to target more specific things and make subtler tweaks to an organism. As such, I've wondered, just how much can you tweak it? How much can you change a spike's fundamental focus? There is a WoB on this topic, talking about the differences between Koloss, Kandra, and Inquisitor spikes, and how they can be used interchangeably without too much difficulty. Further, we know that Trellium, which steals Metalborn powers (as seen in Bleeder and Set minions), can also create Hemalurgic Chimera, something previously thought to only be possible with attributes. Kandra Blessings can be made with power metals, such as with ReLuur's pewter Blessing or Bleeder's specially crafted Trellium spikes (which I do still think count as a Blessing, as Bleeder wouldn't have enough intelligence to function otherwise). It seems in the WoB that Brandon is mostly referring to what is taken from the Spiritweb instead of just Bindpoint placement, but I do wonder, what if you knew what you were doing with spikes and had some Pathian earrings? Could you make a functional construct from the old Inquisitor spikes? Or, based on what the Set were doing with non-Metalborn Investiture harvesting- creating instable but functional powers briefly- could attributes be used augment or create power spikes? Maybe, say, nicrosil being used with the correct Bindpoint to boost a Pewterarm's or Coinshot's natural Allomancy? Thoughts?

Wax did shoot outside of a Speed Bubble, yes, but it still went wild. How he shot Tarson was by then looking at the modified trajectory of the bullet and shooting another at it as Wayne dropped the Speed Bubble, ricocheting the original behind Marasi and into his target. So, maybe, with plenty of Fortune you could plausibly predict the randomness, but you'd probably need a lot.

Ah, that makes sense. I think that's happened to me a couple times as well, actually.

Simple thought here that came into my head recently. The Southern Scadrians have the ability to make their airships lighter in order to fly by utilizing Feruchemy. That means there is a way to make inanimate objects capable of storing Feruchemical attributes. So, what if you create a Hemalurgic spike capable of blanking its Identity with aluminum Feruchemy? It would only last as long as the device using Feruchemy was in place (which might require Harmonium, though I don't believe we know for certain whether the airships' Feruchemy needs Ettmetal or if it's just the Allomancy) to actively blank it, making it less practical than blanking the donor's Identity during the initial spiking, but you can do this with older recycled spikes or do it quickly "on the fly", so to speak, spiking multiple people to steal power without regard for Identity contamination. Maybe you could even supercharge a single power this way, or get a heavily Invested nicrosil spike. Bypassing Identity contamination for Compounding might be possible too. Thoughts?

Vanilla of each kind? Shardbearer in most situations then: more strength, more weight/mass, way more durability even considering gold Feruchemy, plus indestructible 6.5 foot long vorpal blade. Steel Inquisitor has the aforementioned mobility, agility, and assassination options, but in an actual direct confrontation between the two they're simply outside of their element (though obviously other factors like time, place, and other tools/resources available will apply as well). Also, just as a heads-up to a new member, you may want to be careful not to double-post, as it's against Shard policy (Sharder FAQ by @Treamayne).

Bondsmiths have been hyped up by Brandon a lot: they have loads of Investiture and can manipulate Connection on a fundamental level. I've had some difficulty taking them seriously at times (mostly before Ishar's display of power), but I think I have an idea as to why they're so powerful, specifically. Bondsmiths have "access to more Investiture than any other Radiant Order", but this honestly seems pretty irrelevant, as they don't display this Investiture as Heightenings, extra fuel, or even efficiency from what we've seen (actually, no Radiant brazenly displays the effects of high quantities of Investiture, at least not compared to Awakeners. Perhaps because only the necessary Investiture to bridge their Spiritweb to their Spren's is actually saturating them, and the rest they technically have access to but it's not part of them?) Anyway, Bondsmiths have no noticeably boosted efficiency, Heightenings, or fuel (Perpendicularities seem to be a separate effect based on their power's composition rather than strength, given that Ishar can use his Honorblade to do so), but I think they might still have the advantage: intuition. With Heightenings, the stronger your power, the easier it is to instinctually utilize Awakening Commands. While Bondsmiths don't have the traditional Heightening benefits, what if they still have this benefit? We've seen Dalinar Connect to Shallan in such a way as to create a large illusory map, visualize the Spiritweb of one of his soldiers, and Connect Kaladin to a custom on-the-spot vision in RoW. All of these seem rather unintuitive, yet he does so nearly by accident. This makes me think Bondsmiths (except for Honorblade Bondsmiths) will have a high talent for intuitively manipulating Connection, allowing them to potentially pull stunts like complex Spiritweb alteration without having to do extensive research. Basically, even if an Elantrian smartipants can copy most of what a Bondsmith can do, the Bondsmith might be able to figure out the same solution with only a fraction of the time and brainpower.

Hmm, well, I do think it's a bit unlikely that ancient Bondsmiths never got past the second Oath, though it's possible that this was one way Honor "tempered" them. Just refusing them to swear any beyond the initial one or two. As for Blades, I think it's unlikely: as @Quantus mentioned, they're the physical manifesmanifestation of the Spren, and Dalinar's shindigs in OB (when he activated the Oathgate in desperation by summoning a mass of energy) seemed to pain the Stormfather. I think he might have summoned a part of the Spren, nearly ripping it off in the process. Plate seems more likely though, as that's made up of Lesser Spren. Possibly Glory Spren in Dalinar's case, given OB events. As for Squires, I actually think that this is pretty achievable, as the Bondsmiths could artificially forge the Bonds/Connections necessary. I see no reason why this couldn't be done, though admittedly we don't know enough about Godspren to say for certain yet. Anyway, Good thoughts Dux, I liked reading them

Any sort of battle is going to have a lot of dependant variables- where are they fighting? What's the skill of each combatant? What kinds of spikes does the Inquisitor have? Do they have experience dealing with each other's manifestation of Investiture, or are they going in blind? Can the Shardbearer throw their Blade like Adolin? Does the Inquisitor have Atium or Feruchemy available? Is Compounding usable by the Inquisitor? How resistant really are Hemalurgic spikes/Metalminds to Shardblades? Until all the specifics are resolved, the resolution of the fight is shaky at best. There are impressive advantages held by both opponents: the Shardbearer has more direct durability, strength, weapon reach, a vorpal blade, Investiture resistance (in the form of highly Invested Plate) and a better direct-combat oriented mindset for their powerset. The Inquisitor's advantages mostly hinge on what spikes they have, but assuming they the basic eight Allomantic powers plus F-gold they have superior mobility and ranged options in the form of iron/steel, can bypass smokescreens or darkness (Steelsight), have faster recovery from injuries, and more agility. Duralum Allomancy gives them massive potential in power (steel and pewter mostly), but with the danger of working only in bursts. Add in Feruchemy and things change further, as steel grants them a major speed advantage, zink a coordination advantage, etc. Compounding greatly exaggerates Feruchemical advantages, and if you add in duralum Allomancy on top of it the only real limit is you Metalmind capacity and access to metals. Atium is nearly an intant win for the Inquisitor, as they could now instantly exploit any weakness, such as the eye slit of the Shardplate. In my opinion, the standard full Shardbear beats the standard Inquisitor handedly: they have more raw power, more toughness, and a six to seven foot long sword that can cut through nearly anything and instantly kill when severing the spine or head. That's hard to beat. The Inquisitor is far from helpless though, and if smart would probably just Steeljump away if they had a choice, picking them off in the dead of night when they doff their Plate, Mistborn style. If the Inquisitor has access to more advanced Hemalurgy, they wreck the Shardbearer in direct combat though, using Compounded physical speed to exploit the visor slit, use speed and strength with a Shard hammer to crack the Plate, or perhaps use Fortune Compounding or F-zink/A-electrum to exploit weaknesses in the Plate or the Shardbearer's technique. Or maybe just rely on duralum flaring to smash cannon balls into their Plate, assuming they're prepared and have the necessary spike. That's my take, anyway.

Welcome to the Shard! Not sure about Hemalurgy's spread, though Set associates and the Ghostbloods seem most likely to spread it on accident, as they're the ones who have access to and practice it (at least, it seems Mraize and his Ghostblood contingent seem to so based on Gereh's death), especially since they directly Worldhop. Someone is bound to pick it up from them and from there spread it further as more people inevitably investigate. It's also possible that Marasi will inadvertently (or purposefully) let the secret out to other higher-up government officials, as she's already given Hemalurgic spikes to scholars for research. Plus, she knows about its danger, and as the governor it seems unlikely for her not to share that information with at least some others to better prepare for it. Someone else could theoretically use the Spiritual Realm to gain knowledge of Hemalurgy and spread it too, like a Twinborn with the right powerset (double chromium, A-electrum/F-nicrosil, or maybe A-electrum/F-chromium might have the necessary tools). This would be harder to do without knowing of it initially, but should be possible. There's technically the possibility of Marsh, Sazed, or a Koloss or Kandra spreading the knowledge, but neither the old crew or most Kandra seem to want that (though of the few hundred remaining Kandra, there's some wiggle room if Brandon ever chose), and Koloss have only a rudimentary knowledge of its use as far as we know. Lastly, I think it might vaugely be possible for a descendant of an Obligator (or archeologist discovering Hemalurgy notes) to pass on the secret, but only if it ever got out beyond the Canton of Inquisition and into the other ranks or written down, something that would be well guarded (especially given the tensions between Cantons during TFE).

I mean, even if they could swear in Squires easily based on circumstance, they'd still have a sharp maximum limit that could gain Surgebinding based on the number of Radiants available.

A Radiant can grant Surgebinding to certain individuals by swearing them in as Squires. These individuals must be accepting of the demands of their oaths and capable of understanding them. Would it be plausible for a Radiant to swear in Squires based on a particular need, then? For example, could a Lightweaver swear the witness of a crime so they could Lightweave the face of the perpetrator? Maybe a Windrunner swears in a soldier dying on the front lines to save them- protect them. Or, perhaps their Squires occasionally get cut down in battle, so they have others prepared to be sworn in during the fight for the healing, speed, strength, and stamina it would provide for the front lines (not to mention moral). One possibility I find most interesting, could a Skybreaker swear in deputies of the local law keepers, maybe even temporarily if the law of that land specifically stated it could be done during times of duress (but that such power would be dissolved after the time of need)? Definitely not the traditional way to get Surgebinders, but there may be more flexibility than used previously.

Lol, true, it's pretty crazy. Guess playing god with literal souls is a bit more complicated than splicing a few wires together Thanks so much! I really love the banter I can get into with others who share my interests on the Shard

Seems like a valid line of thinking. We do know that Hemalurgy always has some initial loss of Investiture when charging a spike, and needing to siphon off a bit to shield from its own side effects seems likely to me. It would be kind of like how Feruchemy siphons off some attribute to protect from its use. Agreed. Bindpoint placement is really important in Hemalurgy- it's basically magical genetic engineering, and like genetic variability, there are tons of options to improve the efficiency of a system. Thanks

I recently got the opportunity to re-read TLM, and a portion of Wax's dialog about Spook's book on page 100 caught my eye. This made a new idea pop into my head: what if Hemalurgic linchpin spikes aren’t unique, maybe it's just their placement? A Steel Inquisitor has at least one linchpin located between their shoulder blades. However, I think the reason they have a linchpin there is to coordinate the spikes between the head and main body, acting as a bridge between Bindpoints. Remove it, and their eye-spikes spell their doom. This would also suggest that you could build a network of spikes more closely knit together, which might allow for backup linchpins, as multiple spikes would be anchored to each other based on their positions. You might even be able to fully remove the spikes of a Koloss or Inquisitors if you started with the outer spikes and tapped healing simultaneously, being careful not to disrupt the links of linchpins in the process. Finally, I think I know why Hemalurgic spikes bypass the limit of powers Unsealed Metalminds have: Hemalurgic spikes naturally coordinate with each other, but Unsealed Metalminds don't have this natural mechanic, making it more difficult to add powers without coordination. You can add up to about three powers in an Unsealed Metalmind just as you can have up to three Hemalurgic spikes with no linchpin, but like spikes, number four is where things get too complex without some added coordination. And while Metalminds having uncoordinated powers causes them to fail, having completely uncoordinated spikes leads to their failure- only as you're the hardware, the consequences are deadly. So perhaps the future of Unsealed Metalminds will take a hint from Hemalurgy and build a web of coordinated Metalminds (or at least bind the powers of a single Metalmind more cohesively) then trying to cram them all haphazardly together. Now, as a disclaimer here's a WoB that is worded to counter this, suggesting linchpins are more specially made, but this is from 2010, hence the reason I'm starting to doubt it. Edit: Oh, and I also find it worth mentioning that I think Mistborn have this coordinating factor naturally. This could potentially explain how the Bands of Mourning were made: a single individual with natural coordination (or added from Hemalurgy) could make Unsealed Metalmind creation easier. Thoughts?

Agreed: if a Bindpoint is already warped, it shouldn't change again when a spike is reapplied, but previously untouched Bindpoints should change. Makes me wonder what would happen should someone deliberately use different Bindpoints each time, leading to more alterations over time. Perhaps they would see the warping an Inquisitor would get (extra height and a scratchy voice)?

I must admit I still find it difficult to accept at this time, as I don't see strong evidence for why a power stapled onto someone versus extra attributes should differ in how they're accepted as part of the whole (though, I suppose attributes do "twist" more, so perhaps something is fundamentally different and I'm just pulling at straws). That said, I certainly could be wrong, and I'm glad I got another point of view @Treamayne. Really, I always love feedback on one of my posts Perhaps another explanation for why Allomantic and Feruchemical potential isn't transferred via Hemalurgy is because Ruin's Intent corrupts the Investiture, so anything passed down may be of Ruin, not Preservation or even a mix. I'm a lot less sure about this one, but it's better not to cut off any possibilities until we get confirmation.