Lemiltock

2 hours ago, beewall said:

Sure, but it's still a small enough amount Nale could carry it around easy.

Is it, Kaladin needs bags of gems to acomplish anything big (or a highstorm). And if he had not brought enough, or used then to get where he is needed, why would he not use more if he could tap directly into the spiritual.

2 hours ago, beewall said:

Which is the role the Honorblades would be playing.

I disagree here, Honor provided this,

2 hours ago, beewall said:

I mean, we know from the Stormfather that the Honorblades are capable of more that people don't know about.

This doesnt really lean either way, he is a spren and likely saw what the heralds did with honorblades and compared that to what the shin have done and consider it less. But it is possible.

2 hours ago, beewall said:

I didn't say the Honorblades were copying anything?

No but you said if they dont know how to do something. The Shin copied the heralds abilities. I.E. they picked up the Honorblade saw what the Heralds had done and tried to copy it. Given the heralds had no relience on Stormlight due to Honora conduit the Shin would have tried to replicate this. The Heralds however did not bond their blades in the way the shardbladea are bound (see talns dropping) so the next closest thing is a dead eye blade that requiers 10 seconds and hence the shin copied that trait (many years later once gems where affixed as originaly the shards could not)

2 hours ago, beewall said:

No, it stores Allomantic ability. Someone using one still has to burn metals and get power from the Spiritual to use Allomancy. 

No it drains the investiture stored, it still needs a metal, but the metalmind is drained while its used. If it drew from the spiritual it would not get drain, which it does, hence the investiture comes from whats stored in the metal mind. This also explains why the bands of mourning are much more powerful than any other necrosil metalmind, because Kalsier compounded and stored a huge amount of investiture in it. Which wax drained while using the powers he didnt have, proportional to how much he used.

I would just like to add to @Isilel incredible post, when in the history of humanity have we faced a litteral god using magic trying to destroy the world, so some suspension of disbelief needs to be applied. When your only hope are the radients of which Jasnah, Dalinar and Kaladin (a darkeyes with slavebrands) are all leaders then they have significant power to change things.

Also there has been a one year time gap its not like Jasnah, a women, became queen and said women are now better because I said so. She is also a very logical person, hence it make sense that she would see holding someone back based on gender to be stupid, afterall doesnt Jasnah think she is the most capable person in the world and she is infact a women.

40 minutes ago, beewall said:

It's not like bringing a few spheres along is that much of a pain.

Yes but the difference between enough spheres to fly and enough to fight is significant.

40 minutes ago, beewall said:

Why would Honor's mind be needed to draw from the Spiritual?

For the same reason the stormfather is needed for investiture through the highstorms. If nothing is required why doesnt wit just start surgebinding, afterall the investiture is just there in the spiritual realm

40 minutes ago, beewall said:

Well, you need to hold the sword, and you need to somehow learn it can do that, which is probably rather difficult, considering I doubt the Heralds ever told anyone about it.

Because the Shin didnt find that out by looking at what the heralds had done and trying to repeat it.

40 minutes ago, beewall said:

But.... you can still use the Honorblade without making use of the conduit. Would efficiency not come into play, still?

So the honorblade now has two seprate components and you need to not use one to consider it. Ocums razor applies here, if the honorbladea provided stormlight efficientcy would never be a question.

40 minutes ago, beewall said:

They don't even know that you can summon one instantly. Why would they know about the conduit?

The heralds didnt bond the honorblades in the same way that shardblades are now bonded so they had nothing to copy.

40 minutes ago, beewall said:

....and what does a nicrosilmind normally give...?

The stored alomantic invetiture. I.E. someone draws investiture from the spiritual realm and stores it in the necrosil metal mind, when the non alomancer draws the now unkeyed alomantic inveatiture. The person using the necrosil metalmind doesnt draw from the spiritual like a normal alomancer

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

He lives on Roshar, and leads an order of the Knights Radiant. There is zero reason he should be running low on Stormlight. So I expect there's some other reason behind it.

He did use surge binding  just not large amounts of it. He may have not thought he needed to resort to that and not brought enough stormlight to surgebind at a large scale, if honor being dead didnt affect this then he could have just drawn stormlight straight from the spiritual.

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

Exactly, it exists and can be used.

Yes, but the access that mind used to provide is no longer there. Hence they can still surgebind but they can no longer draw investiture directly from the spiritual through honor. 

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

I interpreted "the powers you are familiar with" as Surgebinding, because that was what the question was about.

That is also likley

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

I am very curious why he made the Honorblades open at all, even if it just grants Surgebinding. Perhaps the Heralds have a way of keeping them safe somehow (I mean, they manage to get their Honorblades somehow when they return each time, whether that's being reborn with them or stashing them somewhere). Because they definitely grant access to Surgebinding with no Oaths.

They do, but they require significant stormlight which adds a hurdle to a non herald using it. Rather than just a you need to hold the sword

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

But this only applies if you know of and use the conduit. When you don't use it, and provide SL yourself, you run into efficiency issues.

Yes if the honor blades are not conduits to honors power efficiency is taken into acount

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

Also, this argument applies if the Herald has the conduit too. If hooking something up to infinite Investiture under your definition makes efficiency a wrong term, then when a Herald uses it, it would no longer be less efficient?

Not if the honorblades grant the stormlight and not honor. If its the honorblades then everyone who holds the blade has unlimited stormlight, if they dont provide stormlight then efficiency is in the mix as non heralds can wield it.

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

Because when we see it's used, it is working at a lower efficiency.

Yes by a non herald who has to atain stormlight in the normal method. The shin have held the honorblades since they where abandoned so they would have know if the heralds could draw on huges amounts of stormlight and try this. 

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

But it is for some powers. Allomancy draws from the Spiritual, and so granting Allomancy is a way to grant the ability to draw from the Spiritual.

Yes, but the example wasnt are the honorblades like allomancy they where likened to a necrosil metalmind.

1 minute ago, beewall said:

When did we see him use Division, or Lash anything besides himself?

Which if he had unlimitted stormlight why wpuld he not? He clearly has limited stormlight due to him not using alot of it or glowing like a beacon.

1 minute ago, beewall said:

Yes, he is. But what does that entail?

There is no mind behind the power, it exists and can be sued but Honor no longer shapes it.

1 minute ago, beewall said:

He.... did not say that there were any mystery powers or anything.

He implied they had other powers not granted by an honorblade and worded it with not the powers normally associated with them.

Quote

I do not disagree. You asked why have the Heralds if just anyone can Surgebind with the Honorblades, I answered

Perhaps I ahould word this differently. Why would Honor create a weapon that grants access to his power directly and the only requirement be that the user hold it especially when you consider his desire to hold everyone to oaths. They where weapons created and designed for the heralds, who are bound by oaths and have access to stormlight through Honor

1 minute ago, beewall said:

No, the Spiritual Realm is the fuel tank. They do not "generate" power, they just let it flow out. 

While the spirtual realm is a fuel tank, it is not the fuel tank in question. It is the person holding the honorblade. If the honorblades are conduits to the power from the spiritual realm they esentially become the powersource themselves. Here the fuel tank in the person holding the blade not the spiritual realm. A conduit removes the tank and joins you directly to the source which removes efficienty you have an infinite resource so you are dividing infinity which provides no real information. Hence if they are marked by their inefficiency they do not connect to the source.

1 minute ago, beewall said:

Correct. The question for efficiency is how much SL does it use to achieve a specific effect. And it is less efficient than a Radiant. Efficiency is just irrelevant if you know it's a conduit. However, the current users do not.

Brandon however does, and he talked about ineffieciency and didnt wiggle in the answer.

1 minute ago, beewall said:

Except the conduit is not comparable to the metalmind itself. It is comparable to the abilities granted by the metalmind. 

Yes the same mechanics, gives you the ability to use a specific investiture for a specific purpose. A necrosil metalmind doesnt give access to investiture from the spiritual at all, and is not part of what is granted, its the ability to use investiture that is granted.

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

He has an Honorblade and is a Fifth Ideal Radiant, and barely uses any of his power at all. Even if Honorblades aren't the conduit, that's a good question. So I don't consider it a flaw with this theory, until we learn why he used his power so little in general.

He used his blade, and the only 5th oath radient power we didnt see is plate, which he was never in danger of dieing, however he could have achieved his goal of killing/capturing lift with a 100x lash of a rock aimed at her, or a building wide Division.

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

The Shard of Honor still exists, as the WoB you cited earlier says. So far as we know, unlike on Sel, Odium does not seem to have moved it out of the Spiritual. As for what he did do, no idea. 

Honor is shattered

Quote

Little Wilson

And so are there any Shards that we don't know of that are Shattered?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Zas678's sister

Four, right? Ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... eh... Honor is gone.

Little Wilson

And Devotion and Dominion.

Brandon Sanderson

Devotion and Dominion are gone. There are others. The question is, [is] Cultivation gone or not? I'm not-- I haven't answered that for you. There are others. So this is what I can't-- I'm not gonna <just> share the answer. This is why I'm not gonna give you answers on these things.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

Quote

Questioner

Is Honor still alive?

Brandon Sanderson

Honor? Honor's dead.

Questioner

What about Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

So, um, you can assume that there is no funny business going on there.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

Quote

Questioner

Hoid says [in Warbreaker] that he learned stories from a place where gods have died. Is that Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. I will say this. A god has died on Roshar. Only one, that we know. So, "gods" would not be plural.

Footnote: Brandon is referring to the Shard Honor here, which has been confirmed to be Splintered.
Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

Was Honor Shattered before or after the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

I believe after. I'm pretty sure. I mean, he has memories of the Recreance.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

I would say they share a single power if asked for more but overall would say they grant a different powerset.

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, those are powers. And as far as we know, Taln was not holding SL when he caught the dart.

Yes theyre powers, but the powers we would associate with them.

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

Because the Heralds do more than Surgebind, they maintain the Oathpact. The latter is their top priority, the former is a tool to help them doing so.

And the surgebinding was granted to maintain the oath pact, as was honor granting them stormlight to fuel said stormlight.

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

They are not themselves a fuel tank, though. They're an engine with a pipe hooked up to one.

They do not automatically do so, correct. You'd have to know the pipe was there and open it. (I don't know how engines work, so this may be straining the analogy for all I know, but hopefully it gets what I'm saying across.)

If they generate the stormlight(by pulling it from the spiritual) they are the fuel tank. It stands something is not inneficient if it has an unlimited resource that it generates. Efficiency is not a scale that can account for an infinite. To phrasd this better, How long you can surge bind for using an honorblade while having infinite stormlight is not an efficiency question. It requires that the sorce be limited for effieciency to be equatable

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

They grant an ability when you touch them, if you know it's there. In this case, one such ability is the ability to draw power. (And actually, Allomancy does draw from the Spiritual Realm, so granting Allomancy is granting the ability to draw from the Spiritual, albeit in a much more limited quantity.)

The necrosil metalmind draws from its own investiture pool, not from preservation. Thats why they run out, its not a make this once and use it forever, its a make this with X amount of investiture and run it until theres no more investiture. If this was not the case they would not need to be refilled.

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

The implication that fans might think it could and Brandon doesn't want to ruin speculation, is another possiblity. 

While possible, that its questioned implies that the magic system as it stands could result in honor dieing affecting the honorblades.

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

No, but it means that that point against it doesn't necessarily mean much. 

Except lift escaped him multiple times. So if he had access to power that could capture/kill her why did he not use it. The most likely amswer is he doesnt have that power.

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

Except Honor the Shard still exists. It's just Tanavast the Vessel who doesn't. (And even he does, actually, because the SF merged with his Cognitive Shadow.)

Honor has been shattered. The stormfather has merged with Tanavast cognitive shadow or a part of it. Not with the shard of honor so Honor as a shard is shattered in to pieces and is no more until someone reconstructs it.

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

If something grants one shared power and two different ones, I'd say it grants a different powerset.

But you would also say they have shared power, not that they grant different powers. 

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

Immortality. Enhanced reflexes. I believe a sort of pain sharing may have been implied but I'm not sure of this. 

The first they are definetly known for and the second stormlight provides so I would also say they are know for this. Why choose heralds if anyone holding the honorblades could surgebind with all of honor power especially if we consider Honors penchant for oaths.

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

If you hook an inefficient engine up to an infinite fuel tank, it's still inefficient. The efficiency just doesn't matter much.

This would be true if the engine and fuel tank are seperate, if the honorblades draw the stormlight themselves they would not be inefficient. They are only inefficient because they require external stormlight. Which is the point they dont draw their stormlight from the spiritual directly and hence are inefficient

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

The question was if the bestowal of the power functions similarly, and the answer was they use similar underlying fundamentals. None of that says anything about the actual power being granted being similar.

Exactally and the similar underlying fundamentals is they give someone who csnt use the magic access to the magic. Not the ability to draw investiture directly from the spiritual realm.

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

I think it was just that he doesn't want to talk about if Honor's death changed the Honorblades or not. That does not mean it did change them much, just that it could potentially be revealed or hinted at whether it did or not later on. 

Yes it is tenous, but the implication that it could is itself evidence however weak.

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

I doubt it, personally. The ten heartbeats is due to reviving the dead spren, which isn't really something Honorblades would need. And Brandon has heavily implied it's just due to Szeth's perception.

 

Did he use Stormlight at all for anything besides flight? There's a deeper question there that probably answers this too: why hasn't he done anything else with his powers, like Lash things at people or use Division? (At least, I don't recall him doing either.)

This doesnt support him being able to access unlimited stormlight.

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

Because they don't know that they can. See the above WoB on 10 heartbeats.

I could see this.

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

I interpreted that sentence differently, then. I read it as "the Honorblades are a piece of his soul, and are direct access to his essence". I feel the emphasis in the audio supports that, but that's open to interpretation I think. He also said it specifically in response to a question about if Honor powered them directly.

Again this support them not having access any longer as honor is dead

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, they grant different Surges either way.

Yes, different powersets. If they granted different surges and stormlight it wouldnt be different powers as they would all share a common power.

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

No it does not. It says he will not confirm that they don't, not that he is saying that they do. (And based on the Amaram and Taln scene, they've got enhanced reflexes likely, as well as the fact that, y'know, they can make new bodies for themselves when they die.)

It says they cant surgebind (the powers we are familiar with) but implies they have other abilities. This is him being cagy but they do have other powers and the powers they are known for is surgebinding.

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, I'd say that's why they're less efficient - who needs efficiency when you've got a super massive amount of fuel?

They would be more efficient if they could draw and unlimited resource as their tank would never empty. They are less efficient because they where designed to be wielded by people with unlimited stormlight, hence they do not grant unlimited stormlight themselves.

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

Anyone can use the abilities if they know about them, correct.

Yes use the magic power not generate the magic resource, a necrosil metalmind does not granted unlimited inestiture, it has a set amount thats been stored. 

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

And the footnote says that that was resolved and that they still can. So I'd say that that's just Brandon being cagey about them. 

I agree this was less that they can still and more the "there are questions on if they still can" this wording implies something with the honorblades has changed.

1 hour ago, beewall said:

Do we know this? I'd say they probably are.

To me, this says they are the conduit to the essence of Honor in the Spiritual. 

Then why did Nale not use huge amounts of stormlight to capture/kill Lift? And why cant non heralds do this?

Also that WoB you linked reads he gave them honorblades and access to his essence, not that he gave them honorblades which bad access to his essence. Theres also a couple of WoB that support this.

The evidence is weak, but still more supportive that Honor the shard is required for the heralds to draw stormlight from the spiritual.

This one says that each honorblade grants a different set of powers, ie they dont give the same power (access to the spiritual realm).

Quote

ThingsThatMakeMeMad

Do all the honorblades have the same power? How are they different? Do they all share an appearance?

Brandon Sanderson

No. They each grant a different set of powers and vary in appearance.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 18, 2015)

This one says the heralds have powers seperate from the honorblades. This likely encompaces more than just retrieving stormlight directly from honor but it stands as a function of the hearlds.

Quote

Rybal

Can the Heralds Surgebind without their [Honor]Blades, and if not are they under the same restrictions the Radiants are?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] I will say that the Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you are familiar with. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do, but they are incapable of the powers you are familiar with throughout the book.

Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

This one mentions they use more stormlight, which would not be an issue if they granted access to the spiritual realm.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

They are similar to necrosil metalminds  ie if invetiture is there they can use it.

Quote

Questioner

Do Honorblades bestow their abilities similar to an Identity-free nicrosilmind with other Metalborn abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, these are working on similar principles. Same principle, divergent applications by the magic system, but yeah, I would say, they come back to the same principles.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

While this one talks about oathgates, Brandon uses they could, but the question on if they still can i.ies something has changed.

Quote

stormlightfan70

Can an honor blade activate an oathgate?

Brandon Sanderson

They could. Whether they still can is debatable.

Footnote: This was resolved in Oathbringer, where Jezrien's Honorblade is used to operate the Oathgates.
/r/books AMA 2015 (June 21, 2015)

6 minutes ago, beewall said:

I fail to see why the Honorblades would have issues when the Stormfather does not. We know that the Honorblades are parts of Honor's soul that grant access to the power, so imo, it should work just fine, as long as the power exists in the Spiritual (and the SF being able to draw out the power would imo prove that there's still a massive amount in the SR). 

As i said the issue is with the conduit. The stormfather is his own conduit, so his conduit is not broken the power can still flow from the spiritual realm.

The honorblades, however, are not their own conduit, they are connected the spiritual by the shrd Honor which is broken. This is the same reason why Syl cant manifest stormlight despite being a piece, she has no conduit to draw stormlight from the spiritual realm.

1 minute ago, beewall said:

The Stormfather brings it through, sure, but presumably it's still Honor's Investiture. 

Certainly, but its not that the honorblades have lost their ability to draw stormlight, just their conduit (Honor)

18 minutes ago, beewall said:

That's a Herald, singular, not Heralds plural

But yeah that's just me being super pedantic, lol. 

In my opinion, if Stormlight can still come through from the Spiritual during a highstorm, the Investiture in the Spiritual is whole enough to be drawn through an Honorblade. But that's pure opinion, don't think we have enough to be fully sure. 

It comes through the Stormfather not the e shard of honor.

Quote

Narkac

Where does the Stormlight in highstorms come from? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016)

1 hour ago, beewall said:

I mean, it's not like most of the Heralds exactly have their Honorblades anymore.

Nale does, and weve seen him surgebind while in possetion of it. But yes i agree this one is vague, and minor at best

1 hour ago, beewall said:

Second one explicitly says it's not less than before, first one is super vague and does not say anything about what those effects are. 

Only when hes talking about the amoubtnof investiture, but the mind behind it is diminished.

So there is not less honor keyed investiture because he was shattered, but the shard itself is diminished (not whole) because there is no mind behind it.

Quote

And so that thing is we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and the killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole as I was making it for you there.

On 01/11/2020 at 0:15 PM, beewall said:

Thanks! I'd seen the first WoB, but somehow I never actually processed it lol. (I knew the Heralds had access to the direct conduit thing, just didn't realize it was confirmed it was through the Honorblades, though I was on that side still.)

How do we know that that has changed since Honor's Splintering? I feel like it's possible that the people using them now just don't know about it and so can't use it, similar to metalminds. (I mean, Szeth thinks they need 10 heartbeats still!)

Brandon does say had, instead of has which is only minor but hints at it not being available any more

Quote

WindRunner88 (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

Theres also a couple others that talk about splintering making them less than before or affecting people using their magics

Quote

Questioner

What would happen to the listeners if Odium were to be Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium being Splintered would not terribly affect the listeners. Now, various other members of that faction like the singers and the Fused might see effects. The listeners could deal with that very easily. Wouldn't even affect them.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Quote

Little Wilson

You mentioned that half(-ish) Shards are whole at-- during Shadows of Self. Is that counting Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, one more time.

Little Wilson

You mentioned that half-- like I think it was at the Bands of Mourning release party-- you said that "half-ish Shards are whole" during Shadows of Self.

Brandon Sanderson

"Half-ish Shards are whole?"

Little Wilson

Yeah, you didn't want to do the math, because it was-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, I get it. You're saying-- Okay, so I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of Shards that are half-powered. That's not what you're saying. Half of the existing Shards. 

Little Wilson

Yes, yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, got it. Yeah.

Little Wilson

And does that-- is that counting Splinters? Splintered Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, no. I mean, a-- Splintered is one of the ways that they are not considered whole.

Zas678

Like completely Splintered as in Dominion and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. That's what-- That's the opposite of whole.

Zas678

But having a Splinter, like Endowment...

Little Wilson

Because I-- I was kind of going with "Shattered" <and> "Splintered". So Shattered would be kind of what I was going with Devotion and Dominion. 

Brandon Sanderson

Okay.

Little Wilson

And then Splintered would be more like... You mentioned that Honor kind of Splintered himself off to create the spren before--

Isaac Stewart

Oh, and that's mentioned isn't it?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, but you've got to keep in mind that-- um... So in Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. They-- if their exist-- like, the things on the Spiritual Realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other and things like this. All those <piece> spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Like, yes those are little Splinters of Honor, but they are still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world, right? There is no diminishing that. And so that thing is we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and the killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole as I was making it for you there.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

6 hours ago, Master Silver said:

It isn't just that strength would be enhanced (I mean that can't hurt right, think of two Allamacers fighting), but the Honor Blade gives Nale access to as much stormlight as he wants right? Somewhere it said they act as a direct line to Honor's perpendicularity when used by a Herald correct? So, if holding both an Honor blade and being a Radiant of the 5th Ideals compounds how well you heal and store stormlight those are two more huge advantages. It just seems like Singers try to go around radiants of the fourth ideal and not through them. I wouldn't want to be the guy given the task to remove Nale from the battle field

Honor is also now shattered and we did not see Nale draw unlimitted stormlight when hunting Lift. Its possible but unlikely that the heralds with blade in hand can still draw the same amount of stormlight, if any at all, as they could pre Honors shattering.

1 hour ago, Chiberty said:

Well, Nale also has his Honorblade, and he's the only person at 5th ideal.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Yes, but I don't think the Honorblade drastically increases his strength, and I was comparing Nale to fifth ideal Radiants.

Theres this WoB that basically confirms that while they would be more powerful, its not significant.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a non-Windrunner picked up Jezrien's Honorblade would they gain Windrunner powers as well?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Windrunner picked up that blade, would their abilities be enhanced?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There would be some compounding but strength is not as much an issue with Surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond and how much Stormlight you are using.

Words of Radiance Houston signing (March 11, 2014)

5 hours ago, Rainier said:

In Oathbringer, we're shown how Jasnah's father crafted this kingdom she now rules through conquest and blood. Gavilar was a warlord, Elhokar was a warlod, and now Jasnah is a warlord. Where do you think these slaves Jasnah wants to free came from? They're the people Gavilar conquered.

Gavilar certainly, but Elohkar and Jasnah would not be considered warlords. How many slaves have the Alethi taken from the parsh in their war of retribution, zero so in the entire time Elohkar was king he captured zero slaves. Neither is Jasnah adding slaves to her kingdom by war and deciding shes changed her mind. For over 7 years the Alethi have not captured a single slave through war. And you think its somehow rediculous that Jasnah would be against slavery? 

5 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

No one is saying slavery isn't evil (except for 99.9% of the Alethi).  Thus if slavery is magically banned  by a wave of Jasnah's shardblade, it will feel cheap and unrealistic.  Slavery existed because economic forces made it seem like a smart idea to a lot of people.  Showing that changing so the Alethi give up slavery could be satisfying.  Saying "we all agree that slavery is bad"  therefore the Alethi should agree with us 21st century earthlings, would feel like a cheap morality play.

Which is not how the book has presented it. Litteraly the first we hear about it is Dalinar ousbing against the idea. This indicates Jasnah has to fight for it.

I would possibly understand this complaint of the books hadnt shown significant social chsnge already and if it was a throw away line that there are no slaves.

Instead the books show several social changes (men can read, eye colour significents changing, women fighting  and queen etc etc) and they also show Jasnah raising the idea and even Dalinar opposes her. 

Also people have in this very thread called the argument that slavery is bad stupid hence I will also disagree that noone is saying slavery isnt evil.

25 minutes ago, Rainier said:

You're putting words in my mouth, again. I never said labor is the most valuable thing a person can provide, I simply said that it is valuable, and in demand. It's also something that everyone can provide, and it's often the only thing the one holding the sword wants from you. It doesn't matter if you can write sonnets if a warlord comes through your town, kills the guards, enslaves the people, and wants workers for the mines.

I didnt realise that Jasnah was a roving warlord through her own lands and so this line of reasing holds no water when evaluating why Jasnah would want to free the Alethi slaves. Also Jasnahs suggestion is not to kill the slaves, she wants to free and pay them for their labour, the labour will still be there.

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Furthermore, it's asinine to say slavery is bad, and therefore it makes sense that they'd get rid of it. It would make as much sense to say that war is objectively bad, and therefore it makes logical sense for everyone to stop fighting and work together. I believe I called it a cloying morality play.

Ahh so its stupid to think slavery is bad, exain to me how its not because so far your only argument is warlords and free labour both of which are  not very sound arguments. And yes War is bad, this is why just about every country currently tries to negotiate peace first, because war is one of the most terrible things that can take place. Bad and necissary often go hand in hand, however, war is often necissary against an oppressor not for the oppressor (see slavery)

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You have not addressed my actual point, which you've missed twice now, that a hierarchical system won't become an egalitarian one overnight, and the Alethi society is one of the strictest hierarchies imaginable. 

I never implied, nor has the books, that this change would haooen over night. Infact changes to the strict heirachy have been happening from the start, Kaladin a dark eyes was unofficially engaged to a light eyes, he was put in charge of the kings guard and out side the command structre. Dalinar is learning to read, there are female radiants. All of these things upend the perfext heirachial system and have been happening for as long as the books.

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My gripe is that this doesn't feel earned, not yet. Brandon has said that he's spent a lot of time learning and studying about depression, for Kaladin, and DID, for Shallan, because he wanted to do justice to their characters and not simply take the easy and simple way out. I just want him to do the same for slavery in the Alethi society. Make it earned, make it real, and it will work. Make it cheap, make it easy, and, well, cloying morality play is the kindest way to put it.

Doesnt feel earned how? Because the first we see of it is Dalinar fighting Jasnah over it, or because of all the changes weve seen through the books of scocietal change? But sure its a cheap morality play...

4 hours ago, beewall said:

Oh my bad, I missed that part. Yeah, that's pretty clear.

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Brandon Sanderson

One of the Dustbringers is eventually a point-of-view character.

Cemci

Haven't been yet?

Brandon Sanderson

No, not yet, I don't think. But it depends if you count the Heralds as members of their order.

 

 

One of the dustbringers is eventually a point of view character. Hasn't been yet? No, not yet. This was after Words of Radiance was released. Seems pretty open and shut to me, but like I said, I do want Navani to be a dustbringer, so frankly I would love to be wrong. 

Given Brandons penchant for abiguity in WoB he could be saying no povs from an active dustbring, which Navani is not yet (flimsy I know). However I too think she is the likely candidate for the sibling, although given how artifrabians spren fish, it may also be possible that spren are ignoring her like they do Adolin.

3 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'm not sure how you could read my post and this is your only take-away. 

There where a couple of things I took from your post, and I feel I addressed the otheres further in my post. The part you quoted was in response to this

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And there are plenty of great thinkers throughout the ages who argued that slavery was a good thing, so saying it's objectively a good thing is projecting modernity into fantasy

From there I went on to disagree that labour is the most valuble thing people can provide. Just because short sighted people saw more to gain individually than as a whole throughout history, does not make slavery suddenly objectivly good. 

You also mention that you would be disatisfied if Jasnah as queen of her people decided that slaves are infact her people too  and she has a respons ability to all her people. Hence she wants them free.

Just because humans did something for thousands of years, does not make it:

A) an objdctivly good thing

B ) a "moral play" to go in a different direction 

As for the ecconomic costs, sure change brings with it costs, bit the gains far outweight the losses, especially when we consider the magic elements of roshar (soulcasters) and their already militaristic laws.

3 hours ago, Master Silver said:

I think the point Kingsdaughter was trying to make is that for a moment their was lucidity when the three realms came together. Honor/Tanavast (the shard) may have been able to do something to directly combat their madness. We see the Fused slowly being destroyed and driven mad by constantly dying over and over again. The Fused aren't tortured between Desolations, but you have to think they die a lot more (or maybe not, perhaps the Heralds after being captured die and respawn every day.) One thing to note from Way of Kings is that they were all sane at Aharietiam. So they were no longer being tortured.Their wills were broken, but you would imagine they would get better not worse over the next 4,500 years. Unless laying down their Honor Blades did something to their cognitive shadows or spirit webs

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Exactly. There’s something more going on. While I do think there has been a warping of intents, Taln’s madness doesn’t quite fit. It’s not just the trauma, because the joining of realms healed him, albeit briefly. I wonder if Taln has a similar issue to what the Singers had... its definitely different than the other nine.

I certainly agree theres something more going on with the heralds, but I think that the reason talns madness is worse is because of the additional torture he received i feel.

Here a WoB on the heralds being magically messed up, not just from totrute etc. However i do think Taln is worse because of the aforementioned torture

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celestialwolf157

By the way, Kaladin's comment on Taln and Shalash's mental health makes me wonder: Are the Ten Fools based on the Heralds after they broke the Oathpact? Having 9 immortal, mentally ill people on Roshar for millenia seems like it'd have spawned some stories that could have eventually become stories of the Ten Fools. Taln wouldn't be included in this, but with Vorinism and the number 10, I imagine they'd have created something to oppose his virtues.

Also, I can't remember if this is confirmed or not, but on the topic of the Heralds' mental health, is it at all supernatural? Taln seemed to recover somewhat when Dalinar summoned the perpendicularity at the end of Oathbringer. So, is it just severe PTSD, or something supernatural is involved?

Brandon Sanderson

I've tried to make it clear in talking about the books that I separate what has happened to the Heralds and normal mental health. What they're suffering from is in large part supernatural--and has to do with the way souls (or Cognitive Shadows) work in the cosmere. So you are correct. This doesn't mean that some normal treatments wouldn't help them, but their core problem has a huge supernatural component.

And yes, there IS a relationship between the ten fools and the Heralds, though people on Roshar wouldn't be able to point it out.

mastapsi

Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)

Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.

3DLightweaver

Does this mean that a certain cognitive shadow from the Mistborn series is fated to go insane?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on a lot of factors. But the longer a cognitive shadow exists, the more likely these problems are.

dce42

Would this affect the Returned as well? What about those with a lot (like 8,000) breaths since they are not cognitive shadows.

Brandon Sanderson

Returned are cognitive shadows. In the Cosmere, there is no way to bring someone back to life, other than normal medical resuscitation, without using a cognitive shadow.

Stromeng

What about Dalinar? I thought he has had textbook PTSD, but the screams he continued to hear turned out to be magic.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar has a whole host of issues, not easily defined by a single definition. Assume, though, that his mental state is a normal response to, in part, supernatural occurrences.

The different for the Heralds is that they have conditions which could only truly exist in the cosmere, even if some of the manifestations and symptoms are similar to what could happen on Earth.

Stonewalker16

So is that implying that Hoid is a cognitive shadow, or is that just an effect of being really really old? Also does Vasher know about/how to avoid these effects? Probably an RAFO, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Come back to that question in about a month or so.

General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 8, 2020)

And a couple more on the topic

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CCQ

I just read Edgedancer. I was just wondering... Did Ishar deceive Nalan on purpose or was he just wrong-- he had wrong information?

Brandon Sanderson

All the Heralds are insane.

CCQ

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

It manifests in different ways. Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever.

CCQ

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Nale trusts Ishar too much.

CCQ

Okay, but so did he do it on purpose, or...?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... So "on purpose" is a difficult thing when you're referring to someone with the psychology that Ishar has.

CCQ

Did he know what it was-- that it was a lie?

Brandon Sanderson

*sighs* Alright, I'll RAFO that until I get to him, but the answer is kind of a yes and a no. Okay? So there is part of him that knows and there is part of him that doesn't want to believe it. And yet the things he's been doing lately in Roshar are done because he knows what's coming.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

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Maximus (paraphrased)

None of the Heralds mention or address the Almighty in the opening scene of [The Way of Kings]; it's a little strange, considering they are his champions. Have they seen or spoken to the Almighty?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, the Heralds have spoken with the Almighty. They also feel that what has been done to them is partially his fault. They are all broken in some way and aren't really honorable anymore.

Maximus (paraphrased)

Was that how and why the deal with Odium showed up?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013)

39 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

But that doesn’t explain Taln...

I think 4000 years of torture explains Taln

3 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'm hoping we see some real pushback, because it seems like the Alethi version of slavery is closer to the Roman one than what we think of in the antebellum south. And there are plenty of great thinkers throughout the ages who argued that slavery was a good thing, so saying it's objectively a good thing is projecting modernity into fantasy. There's a reason why slavery existed for millennia across all kinds of societies, and that's because labor is valuable, and scarce. If we free all the slaves because Good Queen Jasnah is concerned with their wellbeing, I'll retch from the cloying morality play. There needs to be significant economic reasons in play for this to be earned. Fortunately, it seems like we're at the cusp of an industrial revolution which, much like our own world, will free labor more than any abolitionist ever could. We've even seen this at least once in RoW, where we see that darkeyes are upset at carrying water, calling that parshmen work. Then the lighteyes get upset for having to do darkeyed work. And so on. The work needs to be done, and it will be done by slaves or parshmen until a machine can do it instead.

You can free the slaves, but there's no free lunch. Even if you get the fabrials to do it, you're just trading enslaved humans for enslaved spren. 

I do not think that an argument along the lines of "that someone once thought and argued that slaver was good, and they where considered smart so they cant he wrong" is a good tactic to take. From slavery is objectivly bad, i think the argument boils down to inteligence vs labour. If all your citizens are slaves  they are not educated and of they are not educated they are not using the best resource for the betterment for society  after all it is our brains that seperate us from everyone else.

To put this thought more succinctly, to remove slavery is a step towards .ore free citizens, that are able to learn and improve society by more than the sweat of their brow. How many Ramanujans have been lost to the world because of slavery. Technological advancements far outweigh any increase in labour force, look at what computers have done. While slaves dont stop technogical advances, having all of those slaves as free citizens able to be educated certainly speeds up the rate of technological advancements, qnd hence is an objectivly good thing to do. 

25 minutes ago, Parallax said:

@Lemiltock I have already addressed (1) & (2) in my response to LordTheodore above. Regarding (3) Odium doesn't have a perpendicularity, he has not invested in any planet, doing so would make his ultimate task of splintering the other shards more difficult and it is different from creating the fused. As for (4) I am fairly certain that "Broken" can not mean "anything"!

For 1 & 2 I dont think that sufficiently covers it, the highprices were classed as rulling together until Gavilar united them. To a peasent it doesnt matter if they rule together as a single unit or they rule together as in they are the rulers. The use of together allows a level of ambiguity that you have not sufficently justified for your theory to hold.

3. how do we know that he doesnt have a perpendiculart on Braize? Also he has fused who can surgebind and odium spren bith of these are him investing.

4. Perhaps my hyperbole was too extreme. However the broken one could easily refer to Odium and Rhyse, after all Rhyse will has been broken and taken over by Odiums will. Its again an ambigious term, for your theory to hold it must refer to Honor and you havmt provided conclusive evidence of this. Or perhaps Cultivation is broken is broken in some way, Dalinar was the first human to see her in centures. Or it may have been refering Dalinar/Elohkar ruling they could both be considered broken. Yes Honor was shatered but broken can be a very ambigious term, especially when its used as a title.

As sherlock holmes would say "it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensivly one begins to twist fact to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts"