Lemiltock

6 hours ago, RazeU said:

I’ve seen several people in here discussing Zahel’s classifications, such as type ones... I re-read Warbreaker not long ago and if iirc the wording there was “type _ awakened entity”... whereas in this chapter he says “type _ invested entity... my question about this is does the distinction make a direct comparison impractical? At a glance I would posit these are two separate lists and he just used similar language... naming apparitions of two different types of investiture or beings similarly can still be comparing apples and oranges. I guess I’m saying all this because it seems people are trying to fit things from SA into a package from WB and it just doesn’t fit exactly right to me. 

I dont think they are seperate lists, I think the old got thrown out once he learned more, as is the scholarly way.

Heres his quote on it.

Quote

“A few,” Zahel said. “More than I normally share.” He leaned forward, elbows on thighs. Wind blew at the hem of his robe, dangling over a drop of thousands of feet. “You want to know what I am? Well, I’m a lot of things. Tired, mostly. But I’m also a Type Two Invested entity. Used to call myself a Type One, but I had to throw the whole scale out, once I learned more. That’s the trouble with science. It’s never done. Always upending itself. Ruining perfect systems for the little inconvenience of them being wrong.”

17 minutes ago, Parallax said:

The WoB in question is paraphrased, it is also contradicted by other WoBs.

I maybe wrong about Ingenuity but based on what we know we can definitely rule out Odium as the third shard. The death rattle says the three ruled together, Honor and Cultivation were on Roshar and Odium wasn't. If you take the system as a whole you still have other problems:

1. When did they rule together? 

2. Why would Honor and Cultivation agree to joint rule with Odium after he had splintered three other shards?

3. Odium has not invested anywhere (i.e., he does not have a perpendicularity) so even in the Rosharan system he is not in the same position as Honor and Cultivation.

4. The broken one refers to the splintered Honor and implies that the other two have withdrawn, that is true for Cultivation but not for Odium.

1. Given they are all goods, ruled together does not necissarialy mean they ruled as one unit, wouldbyou not agree that the high princes ruled together even as they fought.

2. Same as point 1. Ruling together and ruling as one are different things entirley

3. Odium has invested, see the fused and odiuns spren. He invests less but its still investing

4. Does it, do we have proof of this. Broken is also an ambigious term that could mean anything.

To quote brandon again the third shard is Odium. Theres nothing ambigious about that it is word for word a quote.

5 hours ago, Parallax said:

@Lemiltock I have already responded to that objection, see Lightspine's post and my subsequent response in this topic. 

I mean it litterally asks did he follow or was he the third shard. Which Brandon said hes the third shard, this indicates roshar (which is used to reference the system as much as the planet, ie odium is locked on braze but he is still on the planet roshar) has only had Honor Cultivation and Odium.

Heres some other wob

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Zas

So the number of Shards that have been on Roshar is three, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Correct.

Zas

People have been thrown by you saying that Odium is not native to Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium is not native... see that's the thing. Are any of them native? So if you dig the deeper question, are any of them native, ehhh, none of them are native to the planets that you've seen so far. What I probably should've said to be more precise is that Honor and Cultivation were there long before Odium showed up.

Orem signing (Sept. 22, 2012)

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Hoidonalsium

What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiances? Did humans come with Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there.

Hoidonalsium

Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled.

Oathbringer Glasgow signing (Dec. 2, 2017)

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Lirins hand

On Roshar, do the humans predate the two Shards coming there, or did they come with the Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

The humans were...not created by Honor, Cultivation or Odium.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

and one on the system (from a connection point of view) wob

Quote

ZuperzubS

Hi Brandon, just to double check my understanding of things, Odium is still mostly bound on Braize right? Just that he can influence things on Roshar because of proximity?

Brandon Sanderson

I treat Braize, Ashyn, and Roshar as if they were almost one entity for a lot of Identity/Connection related issues. It's more than proximity, though proximity leads to it. We on Earth, I feel, would consider the moon and even Mars to be "ours" so to speak, part of our family of planets. Odium's binding, and that of the heralds/fused encompasses Roshar and Ashyn. There are some subtle distinctions, but for the most part, being bound on Braize is the same as being bound on Roshar.

mraize7

so shadesmar is only from Roshar or from the three planets??

Brandon Sanderson

You can reach all three through shadesmar, with a much shorter trip than to other systems. But the map we provide so far is only Roshar.

Phantine

Have you come up with a name for their star? It'd be easier to refer to all three by calling it the [???]ar/[sol]ar system instead of the Rosharan/[earth]an system like we do now.

Brandon Sanderson

By people in world, it's being referred to as the Rosharan system. This is kind of confusing to us, because we focus on the suns to orient what makes a system. But in the cosmere, they travel directly to planets, and so the biggest trading planet becomes the source of naming conventions in most places. I agree it's a little confusing for us, but I believe it's the way it would naturally arise for them.

Uth-gnar

On the topic of the rosharan solar system, do we get to learn about the significance of the 10 gas giants? We’re they there before the shards ever made their home there? Is that the ‘origin’ of the significance, in the context of the cosmeres natural laws?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, I'm afraid.

General Reddit 2020 (Oct. 7, 2020)

On 10/10/2020 at 6:37 AM, Elanmorin said:

Navani likes to bind things together to create fabrials. 

Her being a Dustbringer would be interested if only for her spren wanting to take things apart while she wants to build.

I dont think likes to pull things appart, is a literal leave everything in pieces. People who like to understand how things work are often said to pull things apart, in this respect I could see Navanis curiosity into how things work to attract an ashspren

4 hours ago, delphinousy said:

which actually brings me to a different thought. Nale is a herald and all that entails, but he is also a radient, and venlie is a stormform envoy and also a willshaper, so clearly being a radient doesn't lock you out of being more. i wonder if instead, once someone has completed the 5th ideal, their connection to the spren will be complete enough that they can forma  new bond with a different order's spren?

This is theoretically possible (I dont thinks its stated that you need to complete the first bond, but that may be required) 

Quote

tganchero (paraphrased)

Is it true that humans can bond to multiple spren?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They can theoretically bond to multiple spren.

Words of Radiance Lexington signing (March 18, 2014)

14 hours ago, Parallax said:

Listening to the latest "The Overlady Reads" episode and I realized that I had neglected a piece of evidence in favor of my theory that third shard on Roshar was the shard of Ingenuity. I am referring to Roshar's moons, from the Coppermind:

Now given that: 

1. the color of Honor's investiture is blue-white; 
2. the color of Cultivation's investiture is green; and 
3. the polestone of Willshapers (the order closest to Ingenuity) is amethyst, a "violet variety of quartz"

I speculate that three moons were placed by the three shards who first invested in Roshar after shattering: Honor (Nomon), Cultivation (Mishim) and Ingenuity (Salas) and that the vessel of Ingenuity was in fact quite young at the time of shattering.

Unfortunatley theres a WOB that the three shards are Honor, Cultivation and Honor.

Quote

Questioner

The line about "three of sixteen [ruled] and now the Broken One reigns" - did Odium follow three other Shards to Roshar or is he the third Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium is the third Shard on Roshar.

Footnote: The questioner is referring to the epigraph of Chapter 11 of The Way of Kings: "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns."
Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

13 hours ago, Rainier said:

Well, I would actually say everything in the books points to ten oaths, since everything else comes in tens. Ten Heralds, ten Fools, ten Gemstones, ten Essences, ten days in a week, ten months in a year. What else, besides the number of oaths, comes in fives? Why, other than Nale, would we believe it limited to just five, and not ten?

Of course, I am inclined to believe Nale, and I don't expect anything after the fifth oath. But from what the book would lead you to believe, I would expect ten oaths, just as ten dominates the rest of Roshar.

5 oaths carried out by two parties equals 10, also i believe (ill search for the WOB later) that 5 oaths was chosen from a writting perspective as 10 oaths for 10 orders was alot of work. But the number 10 being common on roshar is different from all indications around the oaths specifically being 5

12 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

But then, Brandon has said to "never, ever trust anything a Herald says"...

He certainly does, but its not that Nale said theres only 5 oaths and that he is off the 5th oath, given hes likely had thousands of years, if anyone was to swear extra oaths it would be Nale.

4 hours ago, delphinousy said:

i honestly beleive that with his super strict views on following laws and rules nale would not even think to try for a 6th oath. and i wasn't trying to say 'there is no proof against this' as an argument, i was pointing out that a vague reference to there being limits doesn't mean that what is commonly accepted as the limit of 5 is correct, or that it couldn't have changed

A WOB is not realy a vague reference though is it? And the limit being the 5 oath is a common belief because everything in the book points to 5 oaths, theres not even a hint of a 6th oath radiant, this is what i ment by your only evidence is theres no evidence that it doesnt exist. But to each their own and maybe it will happen.

2 hours ago, delphinousy said:

well yes, but brandon isn't saying that the limit is 5, just that there is a limit. We strongly suspect that Ishar is the one who bound the surges to the oaths, but we also know from the honorspren captain Notum that 'without honor there are no checks on your power' which he describes as being dangerous. we also now that, according to syl, the spren learned how to become shardblades after seeing the honorblades and learning to imitate it, so the shardblades weren't always a part of the orders and oaths, which means that the oaths and what they give aren't rigid, they can grow and changed (which makes sense because cultivation is suspected to have had a hand in their creation as well)
what all this means to me now, is that before honors death, hey were likely limited to 5 oaths, but with honor being dead, they may be able to swear some sort of a final 6th oath. We don't understand why Notum said that the nahel bond couldn't be broken once the 5th deal was sworn, it is suspected that the spren and spiritweb of the radiant are merging, but we don't know, and they are still separate entities, even if they are too strongly bonded, but a 6th ideal may actually merge them fully into a single entity, and who knows what that would do to both of them. 
if that happened, it would probably be like how changes the people who are affected by it strongly, like koloss or inquizitors.
i honestly think that it's a pretty low chance it will happen in the front 5 books, slightly greater i might happen in the back 5, but if we see it it will probably only once or twice total.

I dont think you can use the "theres no proof its not" as a real argument for a 6th oath existing. As to there being a limit see above WOB and that limit being the 5th oath see Nale, if anyone has the time and dedication to reach a higher oath it would be Nale as both the pateon and a member of the Skybreakers. Everything in world points to 5 oaths per nahel bond being the limit, there is no foreshadowing or evidence to suggest a 6th oath radiant (with the obvious exception of multiple bonds, but i dont think that counts)

There is also this WOB

Quote

tganchero (paraphrased)

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin.

Words of Radiance Lexington signing (March 18, 2014)

IIRC surgebinders where originally unbounded by oaths and it was Ishar that introduced order and law.

Quote

I dont have the digital copy but i believe its mentioned here: Words of Radiance, 42. Mere Vapors

This to me indicates that a 5th oath radiant is the equivilant of a fully bonded surgebinder (pre Ishar) and as such a 6th oath with the same spren would gain nothing (be words only).

5 minutes ago, jamskinner said:

 

I saw no instance of homophobia. Where was that?  I saw someone express there distaste on a certain match of two characters. How is that not allowed?  

On 26/09/2020 at 5:15 AM, the_archduke said:

Or Leshwi could be completely playing Kaladin to get him to let down his guard so she can kill him.  She is a 4000+ year old undead, body-snatching monstrosity, who is currently in a malen body.  The idea of shipping her with Kaladin... disgusting.

Ive bolded the part that can easily be categorised as homophobic. The original poster may not have indended it but that doesnt change the homophobic nature of the comment.

5 hours ago, Rainier said:

This is not what your abstract says. You seem to have been taking some liberties. 

So, what this says is that there's a Host personality, which is not significantly different from a control, and that there are alter personalities, which are significantly different. I'm not sure how you're reading this to mean that the alters are as real as independent people, when it's specifically the host who is compared to the control, not the alters. 

It says more or less the exact opposite of what you're claiming. It's saying that the alters are less real, less coherent, than the either the host personality or the control actors.

If you want to explore some more of the literature, I'd recommend the following:

See, now that sounds like the Shallan we've been reading about.

Firstly you do not just read the Abstract nor base your entire view on the paper based on one line in it, the entire paper is only 15 pages long.

To quote a section in the results (again please read the whole paper)

Quote

The hypothesis that there would be differences in average alpha coherence between DID patients, actors, the acted alters and the DID alter Hopper et al.83. Mean alpha coherence values for DID host and alter personalities,actors and acted alters. Statistical comparisons are made between DID host and alter personalities and between actors and acted alters. Personalities was supported. Significant interactions were observed between Group, State and Electrode pairs. DID hosts and controls matched for age and sex recorded similar patterns of coherence. Only for DID alters were significant differences observed in EEG coherence across electrode positions compared to the host personality. Coherence values for professionally acted alters did not resemble those recorded for the corresponding alter personalities. The professional actors were not able to simulate the coherence patterns of the alter personalities indicating that EEG coherence, at least in the present study is not able to be simulated or faked from information relating to age and sex

So the actors, could not simulate alter personalities, despite "acting" the appropriate age. For the host and alters however, the Alpha waves suggested different maturity and trauma levels.

Have you read through what you linked? That is not a research paper, it is an opinion piece.

14 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Well, if she wasn't lying to herself, and if Veil and Shallan really are different people, then why doesn't Veil get to have romance of her own? Oh yeah, because she even admits to herself that, when push comes to shove, there has only ever been one. You say she is Veil, I say she's always Veil, because the difference between Veil and Shallan isn't the difference between Drehy and Skar, it's the difference between R'lain pretending to be a parshman and R'lain revealing himself to be Parshendi. Not two distinct people, one person playing two (or more) roles.

There is significant literature that suggests alters are as real and different as you and me. Here is one good example (see link below) that i think examines your "she is playing multiple roles" adequitely as people with DID where compaired to actors using an EEG. In short, Veil, Radiant and Shallan are indeed distinct people who share a body, and are as distinct as Drehy and Skar, with the obvious restriction of sharing one physical body. 

 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/j229v03n01_06?casa_token=orNOfzJFb7wAAAAA:hTFPtaG1YDq51EfULDdEz2Ol5Zo3_TYaCMHx0iSB5eDNH6lb6qnYrIw75era-e97tpvuV-DZpaeiPQ

17 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Function and be well is a rather low bar. I would say reintegration is necessary for her to reach the fifth ideal of the Lightweavers. If she wants to quit early, retire, and live out her life as a half-baked Radiant, then yes, she can keep the alters. If she wants to reach the Fifth Ideal, and protect Pattern from becoming deadeyed, the alters need to go.

Well, sure, we can play this game. Is Pattern a truthspren, or a liespren? It depends on who you ask. He sure seems to be attracted to lies, after all. Without truth, there can be no lie, because all lies have truth in them.

The lie is that Veil is distinct from Shallan, that Radiant is distinct from Shallan. The parts of Veil may very well be parts of the whole person, but by cordoning them off into an entire personality, Shallan is lying to herself. She's always herself, whether she gives herself brown or blonde hair, whether she disguises her eyes, and no matter her feelings or responsibilities. There's only ever been one person there, and there will only ever be a single person. Perhaps, if she weren't a Lightweaver, she could live happily ever after without reintegrating the three (or more) personalities. That story isn't this story. Or, at least, I hope this story isn't that story. Just like I want to see Kaladin speak the fourth and fifth ideals, I want to see Shallan reach self-awareness.

I think you are vastly over simplifying DID Shallan is not pretending to be Veil during these times, she is Veil. Just because she has magic to give an outward sign of this change does not mean she is lieing to herself.

Dustbringer and elsecaller both close 1/2. Which are the two orders I am most drawn to. Its too bad both their books are in the back five.

2 hours ago, Schneeente said:

I read most of the posts here and I think nobody referred to this sentence so far:  (if I have overlooked it, I'm sorry)

 

 

My first thought was: His spren has told him 

My second thought was: No, that can't be, he would have used stormlight in the fight against the assassin if he had a spren.

And then I realized, if he had a spren it would have been a viodspren... And stormlight wouldn't do him any good.

 

So what do you think? Has he already bonded a spren? If not, why did he suddenly stood up and glanced towards the hidden Navani? 

1 hour ago, _edgedancer said:

My initial thought when reading this chapter was that Gavilar had enough Breath to have Lifesense. Where he would have gotten that though... anyone's guess. 

If this was anything more than chance or paranoia on Gavilars part, after all he is having secret meetings all the time, then Nale was also in the room with Gavilar, and he has a high spren that could have been watching

9 hours ago, jamskinner said:

Don’t be obtuse. It was a response to mammals gender being difficult to tell apart. 

Haha im the one being obtuses, how then do you tell wombats apart without looking at their genetalia?

For instance, what gender is this wombat?

On 9/17/2020 at 0:47 PM, jamskinner said:

Funny how logical errors crop up when you focus on politics instead of story. It is Brandon’s book though so he can write what he wants. 

Also, you where making comment about Brandon writing to a political agenda.

10 minutes ago, jamskinner said:

I only know of one mammal that wears clothes so ya it’s easy. 

What do cloths have to do with gender identification?

I also thought you had issue with Kaladin not noticing stubble mid fight to the death and not whether Leshwin was wearing clothing or not.

Is it, how would one tell wombats apart without looking at their genitalia?

The fact that Kaladin didnt remark on Leshwins stubble when it is not a defining characteristic of them during a fight scene is not Brandon taking a stance. It would be weird if he did as it would break up the pacing (out of wolrd) and would also not be something someone thinks while fighting for their life (in world).