Lemiltock
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Posts posted by Lemiltock
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49 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:
Aluminum is immune to the magical cutting aspect of a shardblade and its thickness or lacing would provide for physical resistance to cutting. Also when Mistborn use it they usually use it in combination with other metals so the aluminum itself doesn't need to pierce the shard plate it just has to be on something that does. welded onto a bullet, sharpened disc, dart or some other piercing projectile which is pushed, pulled, shot, stabbed or any combination of them.
Yes but not the physical action of a two handed sword cutting it. So the other metals get passed through because they dont have rhe alluminum resistance, and the soft aluminum gets destoryed by a two hand sword and a superhuman strength pushing kn it.
The bullets/disks cant get through a 4th oaths plate and it doesnt matter what they coat it with.
QuoteAluminum room surge within works. Aluminum cord entangling net (think gladiator net) surgebinding becomes complicated at best.
Yer, except the superhumanly strong radiant rips the net to shreds, and themats even assuming they can get the net over the radiant.
42 minutes ago, StanLemon said:City at night. Plenty of things to Push/Pull and buildings to brace with. Plenty of hiding places. Stoneward. Using the buildings as a brace, Pushes would be able to hit a lot harder as it will be the Radiant's mass against the buildings which I would put money on hitting Plate hard enough to crack. A Stoneward would likely use up tons of Stormlight if they tried dropping the buildings with their Surges. They would have low visibility. Tin and Bronze would let the Mistborn keep track of the Radiant. The Mistborn would have plenty of anchors to utilize. Even without Atium, Electrum could be used to avoid the Stonward. Bendalloy could be used for unexpected repositioning by a Mistborn. If a Mistborn needed to do a really big hit, like shattering Plate, they have Duralumin. Chromium is dangerous for a Radiant, especially if they don't have their Blade summoned for any reason such as they dropped it because a Radiant can't summon their Blade while being Leached. And then their is Atium which Brandon has outright said a Seer could beat a 3rd Ideal Kaladin with. You may not agree with this, but it is a plausible scenario.
Yer a 3rd ideal, which is not new information from row, shardplate nullifies the offence of the mistborn. They do not have the stopping power to deal with it. If they push them into a building they get pushed back into one and a sharplate wearing stormlight holding radiant has more durability than a pewter burning mistbron.
QuoteVin often kept enough Pewter, the fastest burning of the basic eight, on her to burn for hours. Jasnah ran out of Stormlight in under 2 hours after only healing her eye, repairing her armor once, and one use of Soulcasting. Primarily she just used it to give her stamina while she slaughtered non-Invested soldiers.
She was drinking multiple vials, and she was exaughsted after. Stormlight heals the exaughstion not just allowing you to ignore it. And the radiant doesnt need their surges to win, they walk down the mistborn whos burning everhthing to stay alive while the radiant pasivley uses their stormlight even if stormlight runs out faster the mistborn needs to push at 100% to stay alive the radiant needs to run and swing their sword. So id even bet on the mistborn running out first even if they dont die to a shardblade before that point.
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9 minutes ago, StanLemon said:
This is at the heart of the issue. Sure the Radiant has more raw power but why would any Mistborn ever do a straight fight with someone who is armored and armed with a weapon they can't Push/Pull? That would be the Mistborn intentionally putting themselves in a disadvantageous position. Mistborn even try to avoid a straight fight with other Mistborn and work the situation to their advantage. No Mistborn would be stupid enough to go straight at a Radiant. During the early stages of the fight, Radiants have massive advantages in attack and defense. However the longer the fight goes on the more things start shifting towards the Mistborn. Other than the Bondsmith, a Radiant will run out of Investiture (thus losing Surges, healing, and repairing Plate) long before the Mistborn.
A mistborn also runs out of metals, they dont have an infinite supply, and given jasnah fought for hours id say neither will last longer investiture wise than the others.
Sure a mistborn might try hit and run, but as already stated, they cant do much damage and the radiant will eventually catch them, either by running them down (mistborn burning their investiture faster) or by catching them with stormlight and shardplate.
9 minutes ago, StanLemon said:How would you propose this setup. There is no such thing as a fair fight. Environment will heavily affect how any Mistborn/Radiant fight goes. Open field in the day? Advantage to the Radiant. City at night? Advantage to the Mistborn. There are many factors in a fight that affect the outcomes. This is why I think it's ridiculous to always say a Radiant will win. Even Brandon has said circumstances and Order would affect who won between a Radiant and Mistborn
For a 4th oath radiant it doesnt matter how fair, thats the point. The only way a mistborn wins is while the radiant sleeps and they are always covered by shardplate amd have a non sleeping spren so the chances of getting their one hit kill in the tiny eye slit of invisible armour is almost 0
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3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:
your right a pewter arm wearing aluminum is immune to the magic of a shardblade cutting him and he still has his strength which he can use, but a windrunner in aluminum can't use gravity or adhesion anywhere the aluminum is. Nor will any projected surge work in the direction of the aluminum, but I am not sure if a coin shot can still steel push in the direction aluminum armor covers. Aluminum blocks lashings just like it blocks forgery.
Not immune to a shardblade, resistant, and the shardblade has enough mass and an edge to cut alluminium, theres a reason the light metal is not used for armour.
It will only block lashing being placed throygh the alluminium, and given theirs holes it wont even do that well. Look at the scene in oathbringer with the soulcaster in a room coated in alluminium, it didnt stop surgrbinding within, just adds resistamce passing through. And alluminium wont stop a blade of any kind, or mace, or axe etc etc.
3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:You are also right that Aluminum alone wont remove stormlight without the radiant being pierced by it, but it can be used to handicap an opponent while stormlight is neutralize or removed some other way. There is also the possibility that being pierced by aluminum would neutralize stormlight just like it neutralizes metals when burned.
It wont remove stormlight, itll stop them healing while its in but thats it, you also need to stap a radiant in shardplate and the aluminium will bounce off at best and bend at worst.
3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:Are you sure a rioter can still riot or would the aluminum limit the direction that they can riot depending on where the aluminum is?
Allumimium acts as a resitance field, so the rioeter could riot, just not through the aluminium, the net would likly do nothing given the holes, but investiture has a higher resistance path through alluminium.
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8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:
That's just it every mistborn used every weapon they had at hand and full mistborn have allot of options and combinations in combat which are multiplied by any available weapons.
That doesnt mean they can make weapoms theyve never used before, or that said weapon would be effective.
8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:If you opponent is stronger than you guerrilla combat and hit and run tactics are fair. The bronze awareness would give some advantage to any combat where the Mistborn could hide and strike from cover over and over again. Enhanced senses gives an advantage in low light situations. Ranged attacks of all kinds would initially give an advantage to Mistborn, but in the end I think windrunners could at least partially counter that with their own potential projectiles.
Hit and run wont work against shard plate, a radiant with stormlight and shardplatr moves faster than the mistborn, so the run doesnt work very well. Can the mistborn run and survive, maybe, but as soom as they engage in anyform of combat they lose.
8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:If you mean by a strait fight that a mistborn would fight like a radiant then yes they would lose. I saw a martial arts movie recently where the new student challenged his black belt master to one on one combat and they set up to fight when the student pulled a pistol and shot the master in the head because he knew he would lose hand to hand. There is no such thing as a strait fight. In a fight to the death if you don't cheat in whatever way possible you are not trying hard enough.
The only chance against a 4th oathr adiant a mistborn has is to sneak past a spren, and stab them between their impenetrable, invisible, always on plate.
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10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:
Yes Aluminum woven or braided with some other metal like steel, might have the tensile strength to resist the edge of a shardblade and strength of plate. You would need to have some other metal in order to push/pull it.
So it can be pushed but not cut by a shardblade leaving only the aluminium which is not a very "strong" metal.
10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:Why does copper block the discovery of pulses? Since it blocks the discovery of pulses might it not also interfere with surges if flared or otherwise enhanced? Of course the Ideal would need to be compared with the enhancement just like with surge blocking.
Why doesnt it then blanket block allomancy then? If it doesnt block allomancy it doesnt block surgebinding
10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:Location has everything to do with the contest since it limits how to get fuel for investiture and metal is everywhere but stormlight isn't.
In a fight where bith combatants already have their investiture it matter for nothing. If they need to refuel their dead, a mistborn csnt stop mid fight go to a foundary and get some steel. If one doesmt have access to investiture they are limited yes, but thats not what this thread is comparing. Could a mistborn with bags of metal beat a 4th oath radiant whk has no stormlight sure but thats not what the comparison is hence location doesnt matter.
10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:All I have been trying to say is that the outcome is not as cut and dried as many posts seem to assume for either Mistborn or Radiant.
Its super cut and dry for a 4th oath, you keep bringing up tenuous things to try and give it to the mistborn, all of which are by the mistborn trying to hailmary their way to victory, does that sound like the kind of strategy used by someone with the advantage?
10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:One of the greatest things about Brandon's magic is that it has limits so finding the path to victory is what is always interesting to me.
Your ignoring the limits of allomancy significantly. A radiants powers where designed for combat a mistborns where designed for theives.
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11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:
Radiant gets caught in metal weighted aluminum net by Mistborn and gets pounded physically, mentally, and emotionalally until they run out of stormlight and die or surrender. All surges are contained by Aluminum. Shardblade can't cut it. Several metals remove investiture so healing and other abilities are gone quick. Doesn't matter the order only the successful attack. And the attack can be accomplished from a distance with the full Mistborn aware of where their opponent is at all times without seeing them.
You mean a super light metal like alluminum, and they cant throw it off? Alumimium blocks investiture it doesnt cancel it, so the radiant is still surounded by heabily invested armour that blocks emotional allomancy and most physical damange. And a shard blade most certainly can cut alluminium, just not as easily as otherthings. Not to meantion how unwieldy an alluminium net would be to carry/thrown and hitting a fast moving radiant with a net before the mistborb eats a shardblade to the face is slim.
34 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:You could be right (none of my arguments use atium) but there are some caveats such as if the battle takes place on Roshar and the Mistborn not misting has just arrived a Radiant definitely has the advantage. On Scadrial the scale tips far to the other side even with some mistings, ferings, and twinborn. With investiture affecting metals like Aluminum, Nicrosil, and Raysium in a mistborn's arsenal the initial ranged advantage would be substantial. (Aluminum would need to bonded/welded to some other metal). Even without God metals a full Mistborn has a decent chance on either planet. For example there is a chance that a copper cloud could disrupt radiant surges just like it disrupts discovery. It may even be possible that it could have the dampening affect of the sibling on surges.
Location has little bearing on a fight where both have a set of their respective investiture. The most location really provides is anchors for the mistborn. Adding god metals then the radiant has lerisum and atium. Copper doesnt disrupt investiture, it hides it from bronze.
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1 minute ago, StanLemon said:
@Lemiltock that WoB is suspect, take a gander at the footnote at the end. Brandon has said that what happens in the books trumps WoB, and The Stormfather's reaction in Oathbringer imply that it has never happened before Dalinar
And yet Ishar had no problems opening one.
Also we saw Navani provide light somehow
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3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:
This I actually agree with, Gravitation gives them a lot of mobility. Windrunners and Skybreakers would be by far the hardest Orders for a Mistborn to face. (With the possible exception of Bondsmiths, see below)
Assuming that they can use Division while they are being Leached. As Radiants can't summon their Blade if it isn't already summoned, I doubt they can use a Surge if it isn't already active. Even if they are burning the air around them, that means the Radiant is both using up their Stormlight to keep the air around them on fire and to keep them from needing to breath burning through their Stormlight even faster.
Or just see the hand get close to touching them and burn division as they touch or maybe the ground as they get close?
3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:Where do you get Abrasion making them impervious?
Did you see Nale and lift? Because that was an untrained child against a herald.
3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:Again, where are you getting the idea that Abrasion makes them impervious? Progression would be handled the same way as any other Radiant with healing, make them use up their Stormlight
See above
3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:Same issue with Progression and illusions wouldn't be that valuable against Bronze
Broze gives you a pulse, sure you know theirs and illusion, but which of these 100 radiants is the real one. Bronze even if they where a savant isnt a geolocator and try telling your eyes thats not the real radiant swinging at you. Or maybe the ground being slightly different or thay super bright light to not blind you...
3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:Soulcasting, the only other single Surge besides Gravitation that gives a massive advantage against a Mistborn
Or soulcast the air around them to oil and then fire? Or just to not O2
3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:Assuming that they can directly Soulcast a Mistborn which I doubt as Jasnah's thoughts in Oathbringer state that it is difficult enough just trying to Soulcast normal people, let alone an Invested Mistborn burning metals.
See above
3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:And? Stone defenses will just prolong the fight and the longer the fight goes on the better it will be for the Mistborn
They can shape stone, why cant they attack with it, or turn the ground under the mistborn to quicksand?
3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:Same defense problem and extra strength isn't very useful already
This I actually completely agree with. Assuming Dalinar isn't unique, as the Stormfather implies that what Dalinar does has never been done before.
Dalinar is not unique in this regard
QuoteQuestioner
Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.
Brandon Sanderson
I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.
Questioner
Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--
Brandon Sanderson
Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.
Questioner
I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.
Brandon Sanderson
He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.
Questioner
That is a Bondsmith power, okay.
Brandon Sanderson
That is specifically a Bondsmith power.
Questioner
Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--
Brandon Sanderson
He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.
Questioner
Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.
Brandon Sanderson
Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.
Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)0 -
1 minute ago, StanLemon said:
Several things wrong here. Any Radiant without Gravitation just can't compare to the maneuverability that Pushing/Pulling give. Let's break down the individual Surges you say trivialize it
No it doesnt, if they just stay up in the air the radiant destorys their ankor and they fall down, they have slightly more lateral mostion, but the reflexes speed and strength a radiant gets in plate woth stormlight edges them ahead here.
1 minute ago, StanLemon said:Adhesion-this might be an actual problem for Mistborn, though it does require them to touch the Misborn first. Using it on the ground won't work on a Mistborn if he's constantly Pushing/Pulling
Or you know pull all their weapons to the ground, their clothing, the pursuers head was more invested than a mistborn is.
1 minute ago, StanLemon said:Gravitation-This truly is what I consider one of the only 2 Surges that would be super problematic for a Mistborn. This is the only way a Radiant can compare and even surpass a Mistborn's maneuverability.
Thowing a rock with 100 lahses at the mistborn, game over man game over.
1 minute ago, StanLemon said:Division-Every single use of Division we have seen requires physical contact. If the Mistborn is fighting smart, physical contact of any kind outside the hit would be avoided even if they are fighting a Radiant without Division.
So the mistborn, that needs physical contact to leach the radiant also isnt touching them with divison.
1 minute ago, StanLemon said:Illumination-Possibly blinding the Radiant? Illusions won't be that useful when the Mistborn can just use Bronze to locate the real Radiant
Bronze wont show where the radiant is if they are using a huge illusion, plus tell your eyes your not seeing 100 radiants like shallan did.
1 minute ago, StanLemon said:Transportation-For what? Running away? Radiants can't pull off Lezian's trick
Or for telleporting to them, we havnt seen much of what the radiants can do, but given its the surge of transportation and the oath gates bkth transfer to the cognitive and between two distant physical locations instatly means radiant is in the mistborns face constantly
1 minute ago, StanLemon said:Cohesion-A Mistborn can avoid the ground with Pushes/Pulls. This would be truly problematic in an open field, less so in a city
They need an anchor, cohesion moves the ankors under the ground and guess where the mistborn is, on the now sinking ground
1 minute ago, StanLemon said:Tension-Honestly we know far to little about what Tension does to debate about it.
Perhaps tension was a poor inclusion
1 minute ago, StanLemon said:Mistborn while traditionally being assassins are fully capable of being warriors in their own right. Kelsier's fight with Bendal proves they can do a whole lot more than just throw some coins and stab people.
Isnt that litterally what kelsier did though? And kelsier is not your normal mistborn. Look at all the normal.mistborns in era 1, what where they trained to do? Did they tell everyone ohh hey this persons a mistborn or did they train in secret like assasins.i
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck its not a dog
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2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:
You're taking a lot of liberty here with the WoBs to try and make them conform to your position. Wax does use a specialty weapon, but the specialty of that weapon is that, along with 6 regular bullets, it can also chamber 3 specialty bullets. In the WoB, it's made pretty clear that one of these specialty bullets, fired into the right area, breaks the Shardplate. It's not a stretch to assume from there that his 2-3 bullet estimate then refers to the regular bullets.
Im not taking any liberty, brandon said possible, with the right gun/bullet/shot/timing. If he shot shardplate at point blank range eith his biggest bullet and pushed on the shot sure. Against an inhumanly fast person his shots will at best glance significsnfky reducing the damage to the section. If its can wax kill a radiant while they stand completley still, sure. But thats taking alot of liberty.
2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:Regarding the shield, I'm assuming here the spren has some limitation in terms of how big it can be and how thin it could be, as otherwise the Radiant could wrap themselves in the spren and just be completely invulnerable or create a spear of infinite length and stab another planet. The question then becomes "What size is the spren limited to?" From what we've seen, it doesn't seem like Syl ever becomes anything massive that could cover the entire body. Hitting that unconvered area would suffice. Maneurving around the Radiant with various Steelpushes and Ironpulls could also help to expose more area to hit.
The shield doesnt need to cover everything just the center of mass, its hard enough to hit a fats moving target, add that the centre of mass is not invulnerable, not just almost amd youve got to get a head/arm/leg shot on an inhumanly fast object. Good luck with that even for wax.
2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:Regarding the bolt-action, the Lee Enfield that I mentioned was first introduced in the late 1800s IRL, which is similar to the current state of Scadrial. My original post was more to correct a lot of wrong assumptions about the power of guns, than to really compare Mistborn and Radiants. My point was that a gun could pretty easily break Shardplate. Whether our made-up scenario here should give either of the combatants guns or other weapons is another question entirely. My opinion is that, if the Mistborn has a gun and the Radiant doesn't, the Mistborn wins. If neither have a gun, it's much less clear, but I still fall on the side of the Mistborn due to ranged capability. If both have guns, that's where I percieve the Radiant to have the advantage, because their main weakness is range.
They can close any useable range difference, adolin can thrown his shard blade. Even if the mistborn can eaaily dodge the thrown shardspear thats time theyre not aiming well which is more missed shots on the jnhumanly fast radiant. Their range is then nullified, and theyve done zero damage.
2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:Regarding mobility, it obviously depends on the Order, as I mentioned earlier. The question I have for you is, how is the Mistborn going to get hit in the first place? None of the Orders, other than the Windrunners and Skybreakers, have even a chace at getting anywhere close to the Mistborn.
Stormlight plus shardplate increase strength speed and endurance, the mistborn either full flees and burns through their metals or they slowly retreat and get caught. Thats ignoring any surge. Add surges and the mistborn stands zero chance, but no surges just running in shardplate and full of stormlight and the mistborn has less speed and dexterity, thekr advantage is with cornering due to push/pulls.
So no the mistborn cant run, they cant out maneouver or out run them, at least not for long.
2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:Even if they do get close, does the Mistborn have Atium? If they do, then they're not gonna get hit no matter what.
Until theyre out of atium which is what 5 sword swing? 6? And then the atiums gone and they need more and theyve got to avoid a super fast super strong compabtant on close range with a magical sword that instanlty kills without atium. Atium buys them seconds not minutes or hours.
2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:As for getting through Live Plate, that's once again just a question of "Do they have a gun?" If they do, a couple of shots should be enough. If not, it depends on how fast the Mistborn can get the coins to fly, which is something that we still really don't know. It must be slower than a gun, otherwise Era 2 Coinshots just wouldn't use guns. But it's still gotta be pretty fast, considering that a Steelpush is capable of quickly launching the Mistborn high into the air against gravity, and the coins weigh much less than the body.
Ive covered this several times now, if the radiant stands till and a gun gets unloaded straight on will it break the plate sure. But the radiant is moving super fast with a shield covering center of mass. So the mistborns not breaking amything. And even straight on shots "a couple of shots" is only enough with litterally the most powerful bullet in existance on scadrial, but again its got to hit thr extremities of a very fast target.
Coins wont do anything to plate, naybe if they pushed bullets but a coin wont penetrat plate, it will slide off doing nothing. As to them pushing up, thats a difference of force vs acceleration they an push down against the earth with more force than their body weight, thats all them flying with steelpushes says.
2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:I mean at this point we're basically arguing semantics. Do you really think that the pinnacle of the Knights Radiant should just be fighting some random Mistborn? Obviously, if we are discussing a 4th Ideal Radiant, they should be fighting the best of the Mistborn. As for Kaladin vs. Vin, you're once again taking huge liberties with the WoB. When Sanderson says out of the battlefield, for some reason you seem to assume that to mean "only in an assassination." But Sanderson says nothing of the sort, nothing that would lead to that kind of assumption. The implication is that, in a dirty fight, no holds barred, no formation or squad tactics or greater strategy to conform to like there would be on a battlefield, Vin wins. There's nothing in there to imply that it would have to be an assassination.
No im not, im taking a radiant of the 4th oath vs a full mistborn, thd first will likely be far less rare than the second. Is Kaladin the same as every other 3rd oath radiant before he swears his 4th, no, is vin the same as every other mistborn , no, so im not taking any liberties here.
And i havnt brandon said on a battlefield, ie in a fight kaladin wins, and that was preplate. It significsntly implies assasination, ie the opponents dont know the others coming. Mistborn are assasins thats what their power leads to, radiants are warriors, in a straight up.fight the warrior wins.
2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:Now that Kaladin has Live Plate, it's questionable as to whether Vin would be able to beat him. It's true that Vin was the most skilled of the mistborn. But in terms of strength, she is relatively weak, compared to Elend for example, who had the bead of Lerasium. And Vin didn't have access to all 16 metals. Kelsier is not only the most powerful of the Radiants, but also the most skilled at combat. Vin, with all her limitations, obviously doesn't stand a chance against those odds. Give her all 16 metals, some decent amount of Atium, and a bead of Lerasium, and I would expect her to win.
So not vin anymore? Vin beats elend every day of the week, the reason Kaladin and Vin are so dangerous is not because they have more raw power, which is why these com0arisons dont include them and instead a normal level of skill.
2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:Mistborn get into many fights throughout Era 1, and are far from just assassins. If anything, they are far more experienced with 1v1s than Radiants, whose speciality lies instead in battlefields, squad tactics, and formation combat. The only 1v1s that we really see the Radiants partake in are the Windrunner vs Heavenly Ones fights, and that's a single Order in fights against a single type of Fused. As stated earlier, swords don't mean much when confronted with mobility and ranged capabilities.
Litterally every fight with a shardblade (radiant or otherwise) has been one vs one or one vs many. The sharblade can hurt allies as easy as enemies hence they fight effectivley 1v1.
2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:I mean, yeah, they could raise a barrier, but a Mistborn could also just fly away. Neither results in either combatant dead. I'm assuming here that they actually are seeking to kill each other, rather than just the Mistborn trying to harm the Radiant.
You're right about the open environment though, I was thinking more along the lines of "open" meaning "not closed" as in outside in a city, rather than trapped in a room for example. Open is definitely not the right word to describe that though.
As for range, that's once again mostly a question of whether the Mistborn has firearms. If they do, there's plently of reason to believe that they would be able to deal significant damage from a range. If not, coming in close with Atium would result in a Mistborn victory as well, as the WoB above states that even an Atium Misting would win against Kaladin unless he flies up and away (and thereby opening himself to ranged attacks). If there's no firearms and no Atium, then it just comes down to a question of how much damage the coins can do, which we don't really know.
The kaldin wob is pre plate, so the stopping power becomes an issue as well as atium burning quickly, theyll run out after 5/6 dodges and then have to get more while dodging a close, superfast radiant with a massive death stick
1 hour ago, StanLemon said:We aren't saying it is their only chance. We're saying that it heavily evens the fight as the Radiant would never be able to touch the Mistborn while they are burning it and the Mistborn would always hit their mark.
So for the 5 seconds they cant be hit, they live a little longer, against a 3rd oath and lower sure, but given the 4th oath, the just live a little longer.
1 hour ago, StanLemon said:One other consideration, Electrum, while not as good as Atium would still be very useful for defense. A mistborn could see whenever they are about to be hit with something and maneuver to avoid. Not as all encompassing of a defense but would make it very difficult for a Radiant to hit them. My biggest issue with this argument is the belief that Radiants are the end all be all. Would confrontations between a 4th Ideal Radiant and a Mistborn with all 16 metals more often than not favor the Radiant? Sure. But that doesn't mean Radiants always win or even win an astronomical amount of the time. No Order other than Windrunners can Skybreakers compete with a Mistborn's mobility. Mistborn ranged attacks aren't limited to coins, as proven very well by Kelsier. Other than Atium, a Mistborn will keep going far longer with their Investiture than a Radiant (with the possible exception of Bondsmiths assuming Dalinar is not unique). And Chromium is exceptionally dangerous to a Radiant. If the Mistborn manages to disarm the Radiant thus dismissing the Shardblade and grab the Radiant, the Radiant can't summon their Blade per WoB. Hell, a Mistborn could theoretically burn both Nicrosil and Chromium at the same time causing whatever Investiture that isn't drained by the Chromium to be wasted by the Nicroburst. While not flashy, a Mistborn would very much be capable of dragging out the combat until the Radiant uses up all their Stormlight, then it would just be a matter of hitting the Plate until it breaks. What a Mistborn lacks in raw power they make up with versitility.
Do the odds favor Radiants? Yes but it is by no means one sided.
The manouverability provided by stormlight and plate more than matches a mistborn. So without taking into account specific surges which likley trivialies this encounter (adhesion, gravitiation, divison, illumination, transportation, cohesion and tension) so basically only edge dancers dont have a trivial solution and progression plus abrasion increases theire mobility and survivability. A mistborn is a theif and assasin, they wear no armour (see no defence) and utilize small weapons (coins bullets, knives) and have been trained to fight other zero defence people. Radiants are magic knights trained to fight other magic knights, with magical plate (see max defenece) and a morphing weapon. At the 4th oath in a 1v1 fight the mistborn gets stomped. Below that oath its a much closer fight
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5 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:
I disagree. The gun has little to no impact on the force of the bullet, beyond the length of the barrel and the rifling (Vindication is a revolver, so it doesn't even have an advantage in this department). Rather, the force of the bullet is determined by the explosive powder in the bullet itself. The only thing special about Vindication is the fact that it can chamber special, large caliber hazekiller rounds, and I'm guessing this is what Sanderson meant by the right bullet, the right shot, and in the right moment. A specialized bullet, fired from a revolver, can pierce a weak section of Sharplate. When he says 2 or 3 bullets, I'm guessing he means just regular revolver cartridges, as there's no way Wax gets regular ammo special-made from Ranette. A single specialized bullet from a revolver, or 2-3 regular bullets, is equivalent to 1-2 regular bullets from a rifle.
Wax, for the most part, uses a speality weapon, firing specialty bullets and has incredible skill at both shooting and pushing bullets. Brandon also in WoB its said as possible, not that wax can just fire off a shot and it work, it also assumes hitting the target. Which a radiant can turn their shardblade into a shield and just run them down.
5 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:As for the Radiant carrying a gun, I'm currently assuming that they don't have one, as I'm comparing Scadrial at the WoR time period with Roshar during that time period. A bow isn't very useful, as it's much harder to aim than a gun, and is significantly worse for hitting moving targets. That's not even considering the question of how the Radiant would carry the bow around while fighting with a Shardplate, and also the fact that, if the arrowheads are metal, the Mistborn could probably push away the quiver. If the Radiant did have a gun, they would have a much better chance of winning, as range is basically the only weakness of the Radiant.
You mentioned a modern bolt action rifle, of the mistborn has just any gun, so can the radiant, also a radiant could have a similar gun, afterall they dont require magic to use. But in either case sprenblade becomes a shield, they run down the mistborn at inhumanly fast speeds while bairly burning through their resources and the mistborn needs to use everything to stay away. The bullets and coins shot csnt damage the shield and will barly scratch the exposed (no flat) pieces of plate and their range is nullified.
5 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:If neither had a gun though, I would still give the advantage to the Mistborn, simply because of range and mobility. Range is a massively important factor in combat. Throughout history, whether it be the Mongol horse archers, the English longbowmen, the gunpowder empires, or modern battle tanks, range has always provided a significant advantage in combat. The same applies for mobility, as the Mongol horse archers, medieval knights and other various forms of light and heavy cavalry, and tanks and aircraft from the Second World War to today have won wars due to maneuverability and speed. In fact, in Second World War dogfights, it was consistently the fighter with better agility that won, not the one with greater firepower. If the enemy can't reach you, it doesn't matter how lethal the Shardblade is, if you can just keep distance using steelpushes and ironpulls and just wear down the Shardplate with coins, eventually you win. Of course, this is dependant on situation as well, as this is not so viable in a confined area.
I disagree both have good mobility, but the mistborn requires anchors to push/pull a radiant just has better than pewter constantly, live plate plus stormlight. They also have significantly more deffence and healling, a mistborn cant get hit at all, while a radiant cant tank several life threatening attacks. And again keeping that distance will be hard even if it mattered, because they cant get through live plate.
5 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:Regarding the skill of the fighter, a 4th Ideal Radiant is near the pinnacle of the Knights Radiant - We've only seen 2 so far, Kaladin and Jasnah, and it's stated multiple times throughout RoW that most Radiants never reach those higher Ideals. It makes sense, then, that we should only have them facing the most skilled of Mistborn - someone with the full power of a Lerasium bead like Elend, with the Allomantic skill of Vin or Kelsier, and the gun skill of Wax.
There are 4th iath skybreakers that arnt even named, wax/vin/kelsier/elend/kaladin etc etc are more skilled than a normal non named person. The oaths are also less about skill and more about the person (ie accepting and living the oaths). But even so, Kaladin would beat Vin, and that was before he had liveplate, now he slontzees her, and she was the most skilled mistborn
5 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:As stated above, I'm not sure that instakill capability is necessary, as against all orders except maybe the Windrunners or Skybreakers, the Mistborn can effectively just not be hit, and simply fly around the Radiant. Without ranged capability, the Radiant is left grounded and essentially useless. Once again, this depends on situation, but in an open environment, the Mistborn has every advantage. @Light In the Darkness had some good ideas in his post as well about what a Mistborn could do.
So a radiant in almost impenitrable armour, with a weapon that kills transforms and kills the soul (and can become an unbreakable shield) that is both inhumanly strong and fast, coupled with insane healing cant beat a person throwing/shooting coins and bullets at them. The fight is litterally a person vs a tank. Are the mistborn incredivle assassins, yes, can they take down a litteral magic knight, in magic armour with a magic sword in a 1v1 fight not a chance. And given live plate is also always around, the assasinatiom turns into a 1v1.
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9 minutes ago, ShardplateJoe III said:
While I would love to see Kaladin swear the fifth ideal, the possibility remains that he will not. Many orders considered knights of the third and fourth ideals as full radiants, and it was more of an exception rather than the rule that one had to swear the fifth ideal, if our experience with the Skybreakers can be taken as representative of every order (which it may or may not be, but in this particular case, it seems reasonable that it is).
The fact that Kaladin's scars have healed was a culmination of much of Kaladin's progression, which was tied to Kaladin accepting the idea of the fourth ideal. If Kaladin never swears the fifth ideal, I would be okay with that, as we still got to Kaladin heal mentally and physically from those scars (I know he still has a lot of mental health problems, but stormlight heals one according to how they view themselves).
I don't know if there is much reason now for Kaladin to swear the fifth ideal beyond satisfying our curiosity regarding what cool new powers he'll have. What are your thoughts?
I thino Kaladins quest to provide mental health support for Roshar, and his quest to heal Ishar will lead to more development and a step up to the 5th oath, or potentially (albiet a crazy long shot and id prefer 5th oath) either an honor blade for progression or a new spren bond. IMHO the 5th makes mores sense and covers Kaladins protection to beyond phyically protecting people, maybe even a protect people from their selves/past or something. I dont see Kaladins arc stopping here.
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1 hour ago, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said:
“I will not harm one to protect another.”
The first oath is the same for all radiants.
The second oath embodies the basic idea of the order. Windrunners will protect. Skybreakers will obey the law. Edgedancers will love/remember the unloved/forgotten.
The third oath is a “higher ideal” because it raises the bar from the second oath. Windrunners will not make exceptions to protection. Skybreakers literally phrase their third oath as the oath of “choosing a higher law” to follow. Edgedancers will not only remember (passive) but will listen (active).
The second and third oaths embody the first divine attribute of the order. And yes, I believe the Edgedancer oaths requires loving them as well, even if it’s not explicitly said.
The fourth oath involves moving on from the past. This is the weakest in my theory. Windrunners forgive themselves for inability. Skybreakers go on a quest to deal with something in their past. The completion allows them to move on from whatever the quest is about. Edgedancers help others move on from their past.
The fifth oath is similar to the third. It means obeying an even higher ideal. In fact, the highest possible for the order’s theme. Second oath is good, third is better, and fifth is best. However, the fifth ideal actually lightens the load of the radiant. Fifth oath examples:
Windrunners recognize that both sides of a conflict (human and voidbringer) need protection from each other. Windrunners choose not to protect someone in order to avoid doing the opposite to the other side. Windrunners will still protect people from natural disasters and anything else that isn’t caused by a different person. Windrunners will seek to end conflict in a way that protects both sides.
Skybreakers not only obey the law, they become the law. But by becoming the law, they can choose the law.
I’m not sure what the Edgedancer oath is.
The fourth and fifth oaths embody the second divine attribute. Windrunners accept their own inability, which is a major part of leadership. Also, by choosing not to protect, they instead dedicate their lives to leading other Windrunners and sending them to do the protecting. Skybreakers are confident now that they aren’t weighed down by their past. They are confident that they are correct because they embody the law, which they view as correct. Edgedancers heal others of negative aspects of their pasts.
The problem is Kaladins 4th oath has nothing to do with leadership, its about forgiving himself for failing to protect people (protecting himself). And the 4th skybreaker oath is not about confidence, its about proving to their spren they are seeking justice. To take this further, none of the else caller oaths will likely line up with wisdom or being careful (seeking potential) or distbringers self master is unliley to line up with bravery or obediance. The oaths are a progression of the orders ideal, for wind runners its about protection (including one self) for skybreakers its justice, every oath we have seen have a clear link to the corresponding orders ideal. A tentative ohh but by protecting himself kaladin can lead better, still makes the oath about protection.
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1 hour ago, BrightLordSwageas said:
I agree, typing this up I knew I was grasping at straws as I was trying to keep the theme of protection and I was thinking, 'what is the next step after protecting people from external threats, subjective protection and acceptance of helplessness in some situations.'
Maybe with Kal's new life path he seems to be taking, 'I will protect the best way possible.'
On the other hand, the choice of wording might be what exactly sets ideal five against the rest.
Yer i feel we dont have any hints short of the skybreakers for the 5th oath. At least with the 4th we had the gem archive even if it pointed a little away from accepting you cant save everyone. We also dont have hints on what it provides either, beyond the completion of the bond between spren and radiant. Given its the last step i feel its an embodyment of the order type deal, ie protection, justice, truth etc etc
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40 minutes ago, BrightLordSwageas said:
Not sure if I have much to go off of this but I think it will be something like "I will lead by example."
We forget that other big attribute for Windrunners is leadership and the best way to lead is by being something that people want to aspire to.
This also ties into protecting people from themselves as with a lack of positive role models you tend to lean towards quite a few things you'll regret.
The down side to leadership, is no oath we have seen has matched the attributes, so much as the order (i will protect, remember, speak my truth etc). The 5th oath will IMHO be about embodying that order, how its worded im not sure, because i am protection doesnt have a ring to it, and kals 4th oath wasnt as standard in wording as the ealier ones
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5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:
This is really the best response on here. It encapsulates Brandon's own words on it where he says it depends on the situation and Order. Not "Radiants win"
In a 1v1 fight a radiant (4th oath or higher) wins, without taking into account the specific orders powers, in an assasination attempt, maybe, the mistborn. At the 3rd oath its a more interesting fight and comes down to if the mistborn can not be hit, below the third the mistborn has the advantage. This is due to the clear stopping power advantage of a shardblade, and then for 4th and up the huge defense offered by shardplate.
20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:If either knew about the abilities the other had, the advantage goes to the that one. Without foreknowledge the versatility and ranged abilities of the full mistborn may give them the edge particularly if they use Wax's trick of attaching aluminum or some other hard alomantically inert material to an alomantically active metal. Attach a gem stone to the aluminum/metal dart and you have investiture removing darts or edged discs at rifle speeds. Both Vin and Kelsior could handle many at once. Of course Kaladin might soon be imitating the projectile approach once he sees coinshot's and lurcher's in action.
They need Rysium for this because thats how the fussed manage it. So not really an option, they also need to pierce skin, which shardplate protects against. And being a god metal means they cant push on that portion of said weapon.
20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:So in my opinion Mistborn vs Radiant is not cut and dried and the advantage goes to the situation and location that the battle takes place. Besides I think the Radiants, Twinborn, and Fused will be fighting Trell in the not to distant future alongside one another. It seems as if in order for Radiants and Fused to fight on Scadrial then need to snap or use hemalurgy, but the Mistborn need only metal of which some are in abundance to fight on Roshar and they may be even more enhanced with a bond to a Spren.
As stated above, doesnt matter at 4th, at erd they could assisinate and maybe win a straight fight, below 3rd theyre ahead.
20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:who needs a rifle when you have a coin shot?
A bullet has much more stopping power (shape of the projectile, the excelleration shown from steel pushes, not being tied to your own mass. So a gun is an upgraded version of a steel push. Not to mention they can push the bullets. Look at wax, hes a steel savant and yet he sti uses guns.
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29 minutes ago, StanLemon said:
Brandon has straight up said it only takes a couple shots to break Plate
That quote is a with the right bullet in the right moment, not a yes and wax is not typical either.
23 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:You may be right about Shardplate being more sturdy. From The Way of Kings,
Nevertheless, I doubt that Shardplate would survive the 10 round magazine of a bolt-action rifle like the Lee-Enfield, with a trained Mistborn firing aimed, Steelpushed shots every 2-3 seconds, with likely more force than the rocks that the Parshendi were throwing.
Certainly more stopping power than said rocks, however, how many bullets are they carrying, can they hit a very fast moving target, what about if the radiant shoots back (woth either bow or gun) theyve got to hit a fast mast moving almost impenetrabale killing machine that is shooting back and hope they kill it before it gets to them. Easy money is still on the radiant.
23 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:EDIT: Thanks @StanLemon for bringing up the WOB, just looked it up and
This WoB as stated above is tenuous at best. Could it be done, by a steel savant whos almost supernaturally good with his gun, using the most advanced gun and bullet of his time with the right shot at the right moment. Thats not a person with gun beats shardplate, thats a wax has the skill and weaponry to get lucky.
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17 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:
I think there is some underestimation of the power of firearms here. According to the Coppermind page on Shardplate,
We don't know how fast this this rock is going, we can figure out how fast it would have to be going in order to have the same energy as a bullet. According to Google, the average density of a rock is about 3 g/cm^3, and the volume of the human head is about 3000 cm^3, meaning the rocks probably weighed somewhere around 9kg. According to Wikipedia, the .44 S&W American, a common revolver cartridge during the late 1800s, has a mass of about 13 g with a mass of about 208 m/s^2. Assuming that energy determines whether or not the Shardplate is cracked, we can use the formula KE = 1/2 * m * v^2 to get 1/2 * 9kg * v^2 = 1/2 * 13g * 208 m/s^2, with v being the velocity the rock needs to achieve in order to equal the energy of the bullet. We get that v needs to be ~7.9 m/s. That's pretty fast for a 9kg rock, and that's only comparing it to a revolver cartridge. With something like a Lee-Enfield with the .303 British at 11 g and 761 m/s, the rock would need to be traveling at ~26.6 m/s. This isn't even considering the fact that a Steelpush, especially with Duralumin, would significantly increase the power of the bullet. Now, ultimately, all of this is meaningless because we don't know how fast the rock is traveling at, and we also don't know how much additional protection Living Plate provides. I would hazard to guess, however, that multiple revolver or especially rifle shots without reloading would be more than enough to break Shardplate.
The down side to this analysis is the shardplate. Normal plate armour cannot take several blows from maces let alone from strength enhanced maces, yet shardplate handles this fine. It took minuets of Sadeas on the ground, a group of parshendi (strength enhanced warform) swinging with full body swings with maces/hammers, thats hundreds and hundreds of blows and Sadeas was still fine inside his shardplate. Guns, especially with duralium give much more stopping power, but thr amount they would need, if we assume they would work, is more than they can carry.
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15 hours ago, StanLemon said:
Again, Renarin has Progression which lets him heal more quickly. Also, rereading that scene, Renarin doesn't get fully crushed. He cuts away at the hand as it is coming down.
So he cuts a hole in the hand in the half second before hes squished Renarin displayed a level of healing here akin to miles hundred lives. Yes it was likley enhanced by progragression but radiant healing is pretty op. And a thunderclast has much more stopping power than a mistborn.
15 hours ago, StanLemon said:And a Mistborn's entire fighting style is centered around avoiding hits and delivering critical blows. Between Electrum and Atium, that's more than possible. Even without, it should be quite possible for a Mistborn to avoid. Especially if their is sufficient metal on the battlefield to Push off of and Pewter giving them quicker reflexes than the Radiant.
No, radiants in live plate and with storm light have at least the same reflexes and have more strength. Atium does give the mistborn a slight edge when burning it, but only while burning it. They are still a knife weilding cloth wearing person against magical sword weilding magical plate wearing person.
15 hours ago, StanLemon said:Point of reference. Chromium isn't instant but it's fast enough that it only would take a couple of seconds. Atium would allow the Mistborn to dodge any attack from the Radiant in those couple of seconds. Also, if a Mistborn has a gun, they would very quick burn through the Radiant's Stormlight as a gun only needs like two shots to break Plate.
For chromium they need to touch, to touch they need to move from out side the radiants range, touch them and move back out side said range so thats their atium gone for a second of touch, and at best they lose an arm in the process. It doesnt matter if you can see the future if the oppomenent can effecfivley cover themselves. Which a weapon morphing radiant can easily do.
15 hours ago, StanLemon said:This statement is blatantly untrue. We have repeatedly seen Atium easily bypass pretty much any offense or defense
No weve seen atium allow a user to out manover. The difference in mistborn is for either party one shot is a kill (knife and cloth vs knife amd cloth) with a radiant the mistborn needs to do significantly more damage, just to get thriugh the plate, let alone the healing. Atium does not win them this battle unless they have unlitited, in which case unlimited stormlight stops thd plate from breaking ever and the radiant still wins.
15 hours ago, StanLemon said:Do the Radiants have a huge advantage advantage? Very much so. Are they unstoppable juggernauts, not even close. I'd wager 7-9 fights out of 10 a Radiant would win, but they wouldn't win every fight. And if we did give a Mistborn all 16 metals, Atium, and a gun I would argue it would be about 50/50 because guns are that much of a leveling factor
A normal gun against normal plate i agree wins every time, but shardolate is not normal plate, and live ate is likely better. A gun gives the mistborn more stopping power yes but given radiants can be engaged in battle for hours with warform parshendi swinging swords and maces, get beaten on by sharbearers for minutes etc etc. Shardplate is too much for a mistborn to handle.
14 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:I agree it would take a couple seconds. But this is a couple seconds of sustained contact, during which said Mistborn must dodge an instant kill weapon while limiting their range of motion deliberately. 2 seconds in combat is an awful long time to be that close to such lethal intent. Can it be done? Possibly. Atium would help a great deal. A Leecher savant would do better, though one still must drain 2 layers of protection on a 4th Oath + Radiant.
Not to mention getting into and out of range of the radiant.
13 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:I think people aren't discussing duralumin enough here. To deal enough damage to get past a Radiant's Shardplate and/or healing while staying out of Shardblade range, duralumin-enhanced steelpushes are really the obvious way to go. And if the Mistborn has access to all the metals, then after each flare of duralumin, they could throw up a bendalloy speed bubble, down another vial of metal while in sped up time, then drop the bubble and hit 'em with another duralumin attack so quickly, it will seem like almost no pause at all.
Which they get what 5,6 of these before theyre out of metal? Duralium increases stopping lower, but not enough to one hit kill a radiant so this is likley a poor tactic on the mistborn.
13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:That would be enough. Locked Plate is even worse than no Plate. You'd be helpless.
Or the alternative of wearing them down. Metals last for decades. Gemstones for weeks.
We havnt yet seenive plate lock up, given its powered by living spren it may break for a time but i doubt sith the same draw backs. In either case the mistborn needs to drain said plate while not using all their metals. Given their lack of stopping power its not possible. At best the duralium pewter swing and maybe crack a piece, but then their no metals in melee range of a weapon morphing kill machine with enhanced strength and reflexies, ie theyre dead
7 hours ago, i’m in the details said:Parshendi swinging one handed swords and hammers could crack plate with a single blow. Bullets generate far more force than even an enhanced weapon swing and hit a smaller surface area. If I had a super weapon swinging at me and I was a mistborn I’d throw up a bendalloy bubble and reposition, which is an advantage I’m not seeing mentioned enough. Also u less they order in question can fly, a mistborn can pretty easily stay out of the way of a shardblade, assuming the fight happens in a semi urban enviroment (enough metals). And finally mistborn can rapidly generate small arms fire velocity coins that would most certainly crack plate on a hit, again far more force with a smaller surface area than a hammer. How does a radiant who can’t fly stop a mistborn 20 feet in the air just yeeting coins and bullets at them? That said most fights maybe 6/10 depending on the order and the oaths I would give to radients.
A bullet generates more power than a single hammer swing, but on several occasions weve seen minutes of beatings by crowds of stegnth enhanced foes and the plate hasnt been broken yet. So maybe they unload their weapon, dualioum push on it and crack a plate, what then. They can only carry so many bullets and metals, they run out before theyre through the plate
4 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:Coinshots would have an easier time because the damage of their attack is concentrated in a small area. In the last three examples you provided, the force of the attack is spread across multiple sections of the plate. So there is a way for Mistborn to get through, a difficult one, but it's better than nothing.
Coins have very limited mass, not much velocity, and a terible shape for penetration, shardplate easily withstands thousands of coins shot at them. Better than nothing, sure, likely to succeed, no.
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4 hours ago, Azarias said:
What if the mistborn used chromium?
From the Coppermind:
A Leecher can also drain other forms of Investiture. They would be fairly effective at draining a person's Breath or Stormlight.[6] They would also be able to Leech from a Lifeless.[7] A Leecher could prevent a Shardbearer from summoning their blade,[8] and can prevent a weapon using Investiture from working.[2]
If they used atium to get close, drained a radiant of their stormlight, and then used pewter, I'd say it would be a pretty easy win for the mistborn. Especially if they used chromium and duralium.
As i stated earlier, the mistborn wearing no protection needs to touch the radiant who has a morphing death stick, so maybe they drain some investiture, maybe it works on live plate, but the definitley lose an arm and probably their life. Even with atium a dagger vs a long spear or twohand sword doesnt end well for the dagger.
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3 hours ago, StanLemon said:
Also Renarin has Progression and just because he got flattened doesn't mean his head got injured.
So Renarin got litterally pancaked and you dont think his head was injured, what did the thunderclast miss him? It squished him from above his head took the brunt of the impact.
3 hours ago, StanLemon said:I could acknowledge that makes sense. But someone who's good at working in a group doesn't always translate to good one on one abilities
Its more about their proficiency with the shardblade, soldiers still practice individual drills, especially with how shardbearers have to fight (collateral damage and all).
3 hours ago, StanLemon said:It still gives them the ability to break Plate
Yes plate can break, but not easily
3 hours ago, StanLemon said:Way of Kings proves that Plate and Blade aren't as insurmountable as you claim
You mean where Sadies was being beaten on by tens of Parshendi constantly for minutes and was still alive in his plate, yer its pretty insurmountable especially on a 1v1 situation.
3 hours ago, StanLemon said:Radiants aren't efficient enough with Investiture for that. Pretty much every battle they have had unless they have had a particular large source of Stormlight, Radiants have burned through their Stormlight very quickly. This would be even worse if the Mistborn has Chromium. It's why I think Bondsmiths who can open Perpendicularity are the only truly unstoppable Radiants for a Mistborn
So the problem witn chromium is touch right. And what happens when the mistborn touches a radient with a glowing death stick? At best they lose an arm, permanently, at worst they eat a shardblade to the face, depending on if they have atium or not. Thats even assuming it works against plate.
3 hours ago, StanLemon said:That epigraph easily could be enterprited as they shared personality and mindset. Not skills
As @Raven Wilder pointed out, Shardplate always cracks first. After it has cracked it loses a lot of integrity, which admittedly an be mitigated with healing the Plate but that drains Stormlight.
Yer it can break, but look at Adolin it took 4 men in shards beating at him and it still only broke two pieces and drained his light. And that was dead plate
Could a mistborn kill an incapacitated radiant in plate sure, could they incapacitate said radient first, not likely. A mistborn takes one hit to kill, the radient takes hundreds if not thousands to incapacitate. A mistborn doesnt have the stoping power to beat plate.
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6 hours ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:
@Lemiltock We disagree on the tactics side of things. You seem to think that Navani would have been just as helpful carrying water; I don't. But since that's just speculation anyway, arguing over it probably isn't our best use of time. Instead, I'd like to focus on the validity of Navani's choice, and the way it plays into the theme of the book at large.
No i think she was less than helpful giving Odium a nuke, what help was she to the people of the tower, how did she save anyone. She didnt she wanted knowledge and didnt care about the cost tk achieve it.
6 hours ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:Navani is a Bondsmith. Although the plot can make it seem like that was just a matter of luck - being the only one available when a Bondsmith was needed - it really wasn't. Navani's been exhibiting Bondsmith ideals the whole time. Even aside from her mantra of order out of chaos (a suitably Bondsmith way of thinking), each of her actions show her willingness to reach across traditional divides, and to unite people behind one common goal. My very favorite part of Urithiru before RoW was the room full of scholars of all nationalities, working together for mutual benefit. And Navani created this a year before swearing her first ideal. She's always been bringing people together, just with a different method than Dalinar's; scholarship, not war.
I dont disagree that Navani is a suitable bondsmith or that it wasnt foreshadowed, my issue is no one cares she made a nuke for Odium, if she had waited after making warlight at the very least if not earlier, remember she gave up the location of a node, she could have continued after the tower or she was free, but she didnt she had to prove herself it wasnt about saving anyone it was showing how great she was to a monster as @MyrmidonOfAchilles excellently put it.
6 hours ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:And then she meets Raboniel. Raboniel is many things, including an adversary to Navani. She doesn't seem a good person - but nor does she seem an evil one. Nothing that Raboniel did was any worse than what the human leaders would have done in her place. And Navani recognizes this. When they meet, it is not one warlord to another, it is two brilliant minds recognizing an equal. Each sees in the other the potential of an ally, and acts accordingly. When Navani and Raboniel work together on their technology, I don't see it as defecting to the enemy. Instead, Navani was acting consistent with her ideals in the rest of the book - she looked past their differences to see that they could accomplish something greater together.
So even you see it wasnt about saving anyone, Navani could have carried water and Kaladin would have saved the day and Odium would have not ended uo with a nuke. What she found was impressive, but, she should have waited until she could discover it without Odium finding it.
6 hours ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:And that willingness to look past the human/singer divide is a big theme of the book. We get flashbacks and viewpoints from Eshonai and Venli, and we see positive interactions between Leshwi and Kaladin. And then, by working together, Navani and Raboniel create Warlight - proof that humans and singers are not incompatible. I think that this is far more important than the war. Did working together give the Fused a powerful weapon? Yes. Did it give the humans a weapon too? Probably. But this is secondary to me, because the chance of working together is more important than the war. The science is more important than the war. Both sides got something out of the arrangement, but more importantly, both sides put something into it. I don't think that the end of the war is going to be one side annihilating the other with magical nukes - I think that it's going to be working together for a greater good.
She could have fostered singer human relations by working with them in administrative manners, or working with the singers, or by helping the humans in Ur to work with them. But instead she chose to chase knowledge and acceptance from a monster which resulted in giving Odium nukes.
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3 hours ago, StanLemon said:
It isn't as simple as that, having their brain smashed in would stop a Radiant. Merely pulling out an arrow caused Shallan to black out and used pretty much all of her Stormlight to heal from.
Renarin got litterally flattened by a thunderclast and shrugged it off but sure.
3 hours ago, StanLemon said:That was after literal hours of fighting, they died because they were too exhausted from the non-stop slaughter they were doing.
3 hours ago, StanLemon said:Where is your logic in this?
I imagine due to these orders being more military in nature.
3 hours ago, StanLemon said:A hammer with sufficient enough mass to break Plate can be lifted by two men, Pewter gives the Allomancer greater strength than that.
Ahhh and yet shardplate wearing men with shard hammers dont instant win over shard baldes.
The simple fact is a live shard blade offeres better offence then a mistborn, live shardplate offers better defense, and at best a mistborn need to rely on atium to beat impenetrable armour while wearing cloth and wielding daggers. Your comparing a tank vs a man without armour and a pistol. Even if the man can see the future for a small amount of time they cant so anything to the tank.
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29 minutes ago, ftl said:
I mean, part of the message of this whole series is that you always keep trying, no matter how hard it seems, no matter how hopeless it seems.
Kaladin could have "given up" a hundred times. Stopped trying to free slaves, stopped trying to escape. Each attempt was costly. But he always kept trying.
Dalinar could have "given up" so many times. He chose not to - he kept fighting, even when it was hopeless, even when he saw no way to win.
And we're seeing the same with Navani. She could have given up. Went down to carrying water. But she didn't. She kept fighting, kept trying to beat Raboniel even though it felt hopeless, she was outmatched and cornered. Kept trying to find some bit of technology that would let her get the upper hand.
And, like the other cases, it worked out. If she'd have given up, she would not be a Bondsmith now, the Sibling would be dead/corrupted, and the tower would be lost for good. She didn't, so now the tower is back in human hands, Odium's agreed to the contest of champions (in part because he lost the tower!) and they have ways of permakilling Fused and making whole new weapons (though so do the Fused.)
She didnt keep fighting though, what did she fight for, her knowledge? She created the equivelent of a nuke for Odium, thats not fighting its working for the enemy.
Yer it worked out for her, because everyone was like ohh yer you made a nuke, Odium used it to kill a spren already ahhh well your a bondsmith though so good job.
When Kaladin and Dalinar kept fighting, it was them not giving into Odium, not them working for him for some promise of knowledge down the line.
Navani didnt even not write down what she had discovered, she left them a manual.
As to who saved the tower, Navani didnt, Kaladin did. Who gave the people hope, who defended the towers nodes, who resisted against the fused, who kicked them out. Yes bonding the Sibling helpped but Kaladin fought the whole time, he gave hope, amd after swearing the fourth oath he woukd have beaten the fussed sibling or not. Navani did not save anyone she created a nuke for her own advancement, this is the problem I have, i get mistakes, if shed stopped after the first, or only made one sure, but she made multiple, all in the name off some obscure knowledge while dealing wuth Odium. She was played and she should have known better.
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Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW
in Cosmere Discussion
Posted
it was designed for a gang of theives...
Atium buys them seconds. How do they break shardpalte without using all of their metals? Radiants fight in wars, battles that last hours at a time, the idea that theyll burn through stormlight faster than a mistborn through metals is absurd.
You mean Kaladin and Dalinar? The move that Zahel said was practically suicide, yer im totes gonna treat that as a real strategy, its a hailmary at best that has only work for two of the best non immortal fighters alive. And a hand would react poorly to having its sould cut...
Ummm dalinar holding of a chasmfield is significantly more than what weve seen a pewter user do, also why grappel when you have a shapeshifting death stick, get in close, start to drain shardblade to the arm/face game over
Either the speed bubble is close enough the radiant is inside or its far enougj tbey live a little longer, they cant shoot througj the speed bubble with any reliability, this strategy works aginst them in close as they can now no longer run away very far.
No its not, they dont have the stopping power to beat a radiant, if they live 5 seconds longer is rather irrelivant, and evening seeing the future they still need to get inside the range of a twohand sword/spear against a superfast opponent. Seeing the future wont stop a professional boxxer from punching an amature in the face.
They still cant get close to attack, they can avoid, but not dodge with any reliability, while close enough to touch. And once they touch theyre teathered to a deathstick weilding soldier.
Against a 4th oath radiant they basically cannot win, because they cant get through shardplate with any reliability or methods tbat dont involve them dead (touching teathers them and its either goodbye arm or goodbye soul)
Dalinar stopped a chasm fiend, plate is litterally said to improve strength and speed, look at how when Renarin is learning plate he needs to be careful not to crush things. The strength of plate likely outweighs pewter, pewter arms dont need to be careful when burning puter to crush objects in their hands, or jump across chasms, hell vin managed what a 6ft jump which while impressive is nothing on plate. Then the added durabiltity, stamina and reflexes. Pewter also has rhe doenside of not healing, so a punch ti shardplate maybe cracks it, but they break their arm in the process.