Lemiltock
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The other downside to an oath focusing on killing is what about the non soldier radiants.
Given the 5th oath of the skybreakers makes them the embodiment if justice, i feel the 5th oath for the windrunners (and all the orders) will follow suite I.E. the embodiment of protection, self mastery, self truth etc. How these are worded im not sure.
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On 04/12/2020 at 10:59 AM, Leuthie said:
Anti-science is strong in this thread.
Navani discovered something that the enemy will use as a weapon. It can also be used by the good guys as a weapon. It's now easier to kill Radiants. It's now possible to permanently kill Fused. There are way fewer Fused than there are Radiant spren. The use of anti-light favors the good guys.
But the world hasn't thrown consequences her way because NO ONE KNOWS. Raboniel, Navani and the Sibling know where anti-Voidlight and anti-Stormlight came from. Raboniel is dead. Navani and the Sibling have an understanding about it.
Also, Navani has these same arguments with herself after realizing the weapon she gave the enemy. Ultimately, she convinced an ancient spren to help save the tower and the Radiants she put in direct danger, killed the one that basically forced her to make the discoveries, and kept a notebook so her side could take advantage of the same weapons. I think she's made up for her discovery.
On 05/12/2020 at 3:21 AM, Leuthie said:Good thing she didn't. Odium's forces wouldn't have a new weapon, but neither would the good guys. The good guys also wouldn't have Urithiru and the Sibling would be Unmade.
So yeah.
You mean Dabbid wouldnt have found Kaladin amd the sibling asked him to help protect the nodes. The well node was found because of Navani, she willing gave information, aftee being out played the first time she shluld have realisea anything she discoveres would be found and used by the fussed. She effectivley built a weapon for the fusses, things would be different if she had that research and they found it and used it as a weapon, but they didnt. Navani willing chose to share her findigns with fussed if it only ment she could be the one to discover it, she should bear the full responsibility for working as R&D for Odium.
Team Honor also didnt need a weapon, they had a strategy, contest of champions, and a means of forcing it by storing fussed and unmade into gems, which they had already done once. Odiums force gained far more from this discovery, and the discovery came because Navani worked with the enemy. What she did in the tower besides bonding the sibling did nothing to save it, she at every turn made things worse for those she was supposed to protect all because she was playing scholar and not caring for the consequence.
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On 02/12/2020 at 7:06 AM, Leuthie said:
The Sibling spoke to her about that. Something along the lines of: "Consequences once chased only humans. The Recreance made those consequences ours. This has simply sealed that fate as eternal"
One of the problems with Roshar is that there are way too many immortal beings. Now there are less.
Thats not a consequence for giving the enemy the means to destory spren. Like i get story wise its a way to deal with immortal beings, but in world why is nobody pissed that while everyone was captured, Navani decided it was a great idea to develop weapons for the enemy!
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She also has to make up for the fact that she taught Odiums forces how to kill spren. Thats a big thing to overcome. Im annoyed that in all the reconailiation no one was like oh hey Navani you screwed up big here (like Phendorana is as much on her head as Moash) and need to clean up your mess.
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6 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:
https://www.tor.com/2020/11/12/brandon-sandersons-rhythm-of-war-a-non-spoiler-review/
So unless Adolin and Shallan are in the third arc (which I doubt), that's confirmed their final scene is somewhere in Part 5
The part youve highlighted has them fit in as group 2. A final scene is not necissarialy a POV chapter or conclusion to their quest, just a final scene of their characters in the final part of the book which makes sence as they (especially Shallan) are main characters.
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1 hour ago, IcaroRibeiro said:
There is a confirmed conclusion POV for Shallan-Adolin arc at part 5 according to a non-spoiler review from Tor
Still the two character POV for group 2/3 does line up with shallan and adolin being in a group with relative nobodies, they could be part of group 3, but shallan also showed up in part 1. Or they could be group 2 with a close out ti their arc but not a POV in part 5.
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9 hours ago, Rainier said:
"I will let others die in my place."
I'm with you on this one. The first two oaths were about protecting. Now it's time for Kaladin to worry less about protecting and more about leading. Leadership requires you to send people to their deaths, or at least leadership of a military order during a war. Kaladin in completely unwilling to let people die.
I think he needed to be willing to let Adolin die in order to swear his fourth oath, and he couldn't bring himself to do so.
As detailed in my previous post i dont see it focusing on leadership.
I do see Kaladins development pushing towards letting go when others choice to put hemselves in danger (even Vasher makes not of this) and this fits with the gem archive message of wanting to protect everyone. Im not sure the wording it will take but think it will be along the triage lines of protecting those he can.
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2 hours ago, beewall said:
I'm trying to think, when have we seen him exaggerate things? I mean, he's not really the nicest guy, but generally, he has good reason for what he says.
Hmmm I cant think of anything specific i may be being overly critical of the Stormfather but I am rereading and will keep an eye out.
2 hours ago, beewall said:That's certainly a possibility too, and I could see it being that, even if atm it's not what I think.
True, that's a good point.
4 hours ago, Master Silver said:So along with living plate, does the 4th oath in anyway help mend the Radiant's spirit web as it is called. We know that the spren some how needs to get in, and that bond helps mend the cracks and acts in some ways as a merger. We also see that oaths left unchecked cause issues. We see this in the madness of Nale, and in some ways in Kaladin protect everyone from everything. So does the 4th oath mend this? Do the cousin spren help in more than just forming shiny plate, but somehow help the healing process. It also seems to me that it is dangerous for Radiants to remain at the third ideal. For some reason it seems like both Kaladin and Shallan are getting worse because they cannot progress.
I think Shallan and Kaladins issues are not oath related persay, and the notion that they need to be broken to let a spren in IMO is exaggerated significantly, sure the main cast fit, but alot of the other radients dont seem broken.
I think (with no supporting evidence) that the plate provided is a side effect of what happens with the secondary spren (binding?), but it its a huge power boost as well as the increase in stormlight efficiency so i doubt there is extra going on here. The bigger question for me is what does the 5th oath provide. But thats perhaps a discussion for elsewhere
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30 minutes ago, beewall said:
He's certainly not always perfectly accurate, but on something as basic as "is this more, less, or equal to a Radiant", he can probably be trusted. I mean, he had a pretty good reason to not like Kaladin, Kaladin did kill his kid.
I think relativley, hes only a few oaths in, so his mind doesnt line up with a human. He has also exadurated before to scare/owe people into listening. But there may be something here, but I think its not this, maybe it is better connection to honor. I think the heralds can potentially draw stormlight from one of three things, the Honorblades, Honor himself or the Oathpact or perhaps a combination. IMO the Honorblades grant the surges, the oathpact binds them ti the rebirth cycle and both together privde the connection to Honor so he can power them directly.
30 minutes ago, beewall said:Generally, sure, but we see in his thoughts at the end of Oathbringer that he is scared of attracting Rayse's attention.
Fair enough, I guess. Lol.
I still think there's probably some reason or another it's just not worth it for (whether it's getting Rayse's attention, because it is tied to the planet super heavily, or is just a massive hassle), but I can see your reasoning.
Hes not so cautious as to be worshiped as a god by the horneaters, his worry seems ro be more dirext dont poke Odium, while in Odiums city. And for a power like direct access to stormlight and surges with no oaths, I would say its worth extra risk afterall he risked being found out by finding and bonding his cryptic
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On 08/11/2020 at 8:18 AM, beewall said:
The Stormfather specifically says more than just an unoathed Radiant.
True, I dont think the stormfather is entirly a correct narrator, look at his interactions with Kaladin and Syl. But thats just what i get from his character, he makes things seem grander than they are.
On 08/11/2020 at 8:18 AM, beewall said:Yeah, definitely.
The difference is in design, imo. The Fused were not designed to draw a bunch of power, but to be CS who I guess can exploit the natural bonding system to take over a body (and I feel it's implied by the SF that they didn't even have Surges at first). The Honorblades, however, were designed to grant power.
Certainly, but at the level of power weve seen that can direct/draw power from the spiritual, the stormfather is the lowest on the peg power wise and even he does it during an event (I.E. the highstorm always grants stormlight from the stormfather)
On 08/11/2020 at 8:18 AM, beewall said:I don't think he'd move fast enough to avoid a massive sword. And I mean, if you just stand there holding it tightly enough, I don't think he can like grab your hands and rip them off it.
This is Hoid, he who killed god, if anyone can do unbelievable things its him.
On 08/11/2020 at 8:18 AM, beewall said:So far as I'm aware, the two main things we've seen him steal are the lerasium (just sitting in a room, with TLR no longer near it), and the Moon Scepter, which seems to have been sitting in a museum or something? Unsure exactly on that one.
Theyre the two main things I remeber, one he had to get through the well of echos (a prison for shards and Kelsier) and the other was guarded. I think stealing an honorblade would be harder, but if it granted stormlight on demand then it would be worth the hastle.
On 08/11/2020 at 8:18 AM, beewall said:They know of him, but generally not where he is. I feel the Honorblades are probably watched rather heavily by various forces.
I ment this more in a if its suits him hes not affraid to show off
On 08/11/2020 at 8:18 AM, beewall said:Sure, but it's pretty dang hard to steal something someone can just dissolve to mist to hide it and you can't get at until you kill them, when you can't harm people.
Certainly hard, but not impossible. He doesnt need to hsrm them, just make them think he has to harm them. Or in the true Hoid way, charm them/goad them into thinking its best for them. An immortal man with significant resources could easily get a blade that gives direct access to stormlight.
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5 hours ago, Master Silver said:
So is the next chapter the Syl interlude or do we learn about Shinovar?
Next chapter looks to be Navani from the anitations and will be the last chapter of part 1
QuoteAlso, if the mechanic to reverse the madness of the heralds is for them to take up their honor blades, why hasn't Nale been healed yet. Or has he? It seemed like he got somewhat better during Edge Dancer, and his training Szeth also is further evidence of his healing (maybe). But it seems like it needs to be more than just taking up your honor blades, but fulfilling the oath pack. Perhaps all the heralds need to return to the correct intent for the madness to be cured. Wasn't there a death rattle saying, "why must I carry the madness of all ten" Does vast amounts of stormlight combat madness, the way it helped Kaladin combat depression. I would postulate though, that, humans that are not cognitive shadows, do lasting harm when they form a stormlight dependency. Whereas cognitive shadows are doing what they were designed to do. Holding lots of investiture, like our favorite thief from Mistborn.
I think abandoning the Oathpact is a bigger seperation than holding onto their swords, abanding them was the symbolic abandoning not the actual.
I also dont think the madness is all due to breaking their intent, i suspect part of it has to do with torture and another part with living longer than a mind should.
ill quote the specific section from the WoB i posted above.
Quotemastapsi
Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)
Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.
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2 hours ago, Master Silver said:
The Wind Runners are known for protecting AND leading. All of the oaths thus far have dealt with protecting.
The biggest issue here is when you consider the other orders. For the windrunners it is about protection and their Divine Attributes somewhat match.
What about the Skybreakers, neither Just or Confident comes to mind when you consider swearing yourself to another, or a personal quest.
The Dustbringers selfmaster is unlikely to relate to bravery or obedience.
For the edgedances, loving at a stretch is about remembering other, but healing does not
The same with Truthwatchers, seeking truth loosly relates ti learned, but not giving
Lightweavers truths are anything but creative, but they are honest
Elsecallers selfmaster doesnt match up with wise or careful
Willshapers I will seek freedom also is noy resolute or building
The stonewardz like the windrunners line up with their first, dependable, but unlilley their second of resourceful
And dalinars oaths have been neither pious or guiding
From looking at all of the orders as a whole, I dont think the oaths will match the Devine attributes. I see them being cornerstones of the order, (the skybreakers are just and confident etc) but not as characteristics of their oaths.
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20 hours ago, beewall said:
That could be, but like.... don't get me wrong, someone with an Honorblade is dangerous, especially because they don't have to follow any version of the oaths, but "like a Herald" feels like a massive overstatement, and it'd be kinda underwhelming if there wasn't anything to it at all.
I imagine surgebinding like a 5th oath radient, but with the lack of oaths is quite significant, especially for some surges. But he may be grain of truthing it as well.
20 hours ago, beewall said:Not contesting this, I agree.
Keeping the power low is probably the most effective way, but there's probably other ones - could totally be that being a godmetal is enough, because a chunk of metal becoming sapient naturally over time seems unlikely (but then, maybe it does work that way and you can get sapient objects by just making it out of godmetals, lol).
Yer i feel Brandon hasnt explored these mechanics deep enough yet, but hopefully he will.
20 hours ago, beewall said:Less Invested than the Stormfather is a rather extremely high bar, lmao. But I agree there, no way is an Honorblade higher in total Investiture than the SF.
Theyre likely less invested than the fused, and they need to refil voidlight. (Maybe not the 9 pillars, and it may be filled from Odium directly, but from the Pursuer needing to go away to refil i find gems the likly source)
20 hours ago, beewall said:True, I guess.
He probably heals quick, sure, but it's not like it takes more than a second or so to keep him from grabbing the Blade if someone drops it.
Only if you can cut Hoid, a super powerful, super crafty not quite person anymore. I would back Hoids ability to move faster and trickier than the heralds or Vasher and they are faster and more experienced fhan a mortal.
20 hours ago, beewall said:I'd wager that there's one per Honorblade (maybe a second as an "heir" of sorts), and presumably a lot of thorough background checking. Hoid's talented, but I think it would take a lot that he may not want to deal with.
Hoid has stolen rare relics from across the cosmere, and while they ahve required effort hes never really struggled from what weve seen.
20 hours ago, beewall said:And taking one would probably also draw a lot more attention than getting a spren.
I agree, and has other small advantages I think (less power more ease I.E. a companion vs carrying a sword) but if the Honorblades granted a tap to the spiritual it would be worth the cost, especially given the Horneaters already think him a God so hes not above being know on occasions.
19 hours ago, beewall said:Sorry, forgot to respond to this part. Yes, Hoid has figured out a lot, and managed to steal a lot. But he usually does it at a point where it's vulnerable (such as after the fall of the Final Empire). Based on the fact that the Shin have retained the Honorblades for 4.5k years, I'd say that they haven't had many such weak points.
Just because he takes advantage of vulnerabilities, doesnt mean Hoid the craftiest entity in the Cosmere needs things to be going wrong to steal stuff. Hoid is IMO far more skillful than just having access and taking advantage of Fortune.
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35 minutes ago, beewall said:
Yeah, fair, lol.
Isn't mentioning that the Honorblades have deeper potential sharing more information than he technically had to give? I mean, I agree he keeps a lot of secrets, but if he is mentioning something, I'm inclined to think there's something there.
I see this as Stormfather making the unknown sound dangerous so Dalinar doesnt dig, not him giving actual information persay
35 minutes ago, beewall said:I feel like there's a difference there, though I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it. Like, the Perp is a thing Dalinar can for short periods of time choose to do. He can choose to close it, or to not open it in the first place, and it can't stay open for long, as well as only being able to be used where he is. With the Honorblades, someone can hide it and take it anywhere, use it for a longer period of time, and there's not a way to shut it off.
It is something Dalinar does, but because of the stormfather (and presumably Tanavasts CS now in the Stormfather), much like Kaladin lashes, but its only because of Syl that he can do this.
35 minutes ago, beewall said:I forget, did the Perp recharge the Radiants themselves, or just their gems? I'm gonna need to recheck.
I remeber it recharging everyone/thing but id need to go back and look
35 minutes ago, beewall said:It's a large step, I agree. But I think this being due to a Shard directly creating something can potentially explain that. (I'm also not sure there's no cost, although I have no idea what the cost would be, as if it does exist, we haven't exactly seen it.)
I mean, there's probably ways to keep them from gaining sapience somehow. I can't imagine them not being heavily Invested.
Maybe, but given enough investiture will eventual become scentient that the likely way is to keep its power bellow a threshold (admitidly this is likely a very high threashold) and them being godmetals may affect this (technically they are of Honor i suppose)
35 minutes ago, beewall said:I mean, Splinters and godmetals are both pure Investiture. So one as a sword is gonna be preeeeeeetty Invested.
Certainly agree, but still less so then other scentient splinters I.E. the Stormfather
35 minutes ago, beewall said:Hmm, never thought about it this way. I suppose you could say that.
When it comes to emotional impact, I agree. But I do think Brandon will also want to make the powerset different in some manner, even if that difference is just fuel amount, with the main powers remaining the same.
True, but he has also set Moash up to be a great fighter throughout the books, hes also quite tactical and learning from the fused
35 minutes ago, beewall said:I mean, bit hard to steal a Blade that presumably is dismissed the majority of the time. You'd have to get one to drop it, then grab it and dismiss it before another kills your hand. Even if you heal it, keeping you from grabbing the Blade doesn't need you to be wounded long. Not being able to harm someone makes getting an Honorblade from them really hard, even for Hoid.
Hoid heals faster than someone like Kaladin, he also seems to think a shardblade would not hurt him at all and he has a good understanding of cosmere magic.
35 minutes ago, beewall said:If the Honorblades do grant SL, all would probably be important. (Also, I feel like Radiants using Honorblades to gain extra powers when fighting could end up playing a role.)
They would all be very important but Hoid would only need one to get his investiture tap.
35 minutes ago, beewall said:An Honorblade can be dismissed without negative effect. (Which also makes stealing it incredibly difficult.)
Hoid the master of disguise couldnt pretend to be a Shin to the point where he is trained to use them (several Shin are so its not uncommon) and once hes holding on, Hoid out. He can also hurt in non traditional sence, make noise so they dont sleep, make himself look dangerous so the summon then, take the sword from theire hand (hes strong and fsst just cant hurt) then Hoid out.
35 minutes ago, beewall said:Assuming he could get ahold of one, which I doubt.
Hes gotten hold of rare heavily guarded hidden away objects all ober the cosmere, if it wasnt Hoid id agree, but for Hoid it would probs be like another tuesday.
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3 hours ago, beewall said:
Yeah, this is where that WoB and the Stormfather's quotes come in, as I see those as evidence. I agree just saying "it's the Honorblades" without any evidence would not be enough.
To avoid having to go back all the way to the original messages, I'll post the WoB and quote again.
(Emphasis mine, as well as a comma I added in that I feel is present in the audio, but not transcribed, and I think helps clarify my interpretation.)
I interpret this underlined portion as saying "the Honorblades were pieces of Honor's soul that he gave them, and [were] direct access to his essence", with the "were" implied as it is a continuation of the statement "they were pieces of Honor's soul".
On the other hand, it sounds like you interpret this as "the Honorblades were pieces of Honor's soul that he gave them, and [he also gave them] direct access to his essence". While I can see this as an interpretation of what he said, it also feels like somewhat awkward phrasing, and the implied verb being "were" feels more natural to me.
This line to me indicates that using an Honorblade can, if you understand what it is and what it can do, allow one to become almost like a Herald, power-wise.
I would highly doubt an Honorblade makes one a Cognitive Shadow, and it granting the reflexes would be a little odd, as Taln still has them despite (presumably) not having his Honorblade.
By process of elimination, and combined with the WoB above, it seems likely to me that the Honorblades grant the direct conduit to Honor, which is a power that would be extremely dangerous and worry the Stormfather, and would make one "like a Herald, nearly".
I can see your interpretation, I still think mine is correct but unfortunatley WoB trnd to be ambigious, I do however still think with honor being shattered will have effected it. I dont put much stock in the stormfather, who is gruff still bonding Dalinar and doesnt like sharing information. The Stormfather also doesnt seem upset that Dalinar can open a perpediculary, he is suprised but doesnt seem to try and stop him. If his worry with the honorblades was about Stormlight he would also likey take issue with Dalinar using this ability.
3 hours ago, beewall said:Yeah, I would agree that it's not a perfect comparison. I see it less as an exact "this is it", and more as establishing that it is possible for one to have an ability to draw power from the Spiritual. I then, using the WoB and the SF quote, speculate that the Honorblades grant a much larger conduit, functioning differently but with similar underlying fundamentals.
I dont think its similar enough, the extra step from powers can draw from the spiritual at a cost to at no cost doesnt have a precedence IMO
3 hours ago, beewall said:Ah, I see what you're saying now. I would of course agree that in general, a person would not be able to just draw power. I do, however, believe that it is possible for a Shard to allow this, by giving a very powerful Splinter of their power.
Except we have no precedence for it, the honor blades dont seem to be scentient which buts their inate investiture as quite low, they are splinters and being godmetals explains why you can surgebind while holding them (the cost here is touch rather than using it up to gain the ability) and the only non shard we have seen is the stormfather who has more investiture than the nightblood.
QuoteQuestioner
You've previously said that Nightblood is the most powerful non-Shardic being in the Cosmere. Is he more powerful than the Unmade or Stormfather in terms of raw Investiture?
Brandon Sanderson
Raw Investiture? Here's the thing, when you say powerful, it can mean lots of different things. More raw Investiture than the Stormfather... probably not. Than the Unmade, probably. I would have to look, I don't have the numbers on this. But the Stormfather is very restricted in what he can do.
Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)3 hours ago, beewall said:Yes, they're definitely pretty different. I wasn't saying it was directly comparable, just that it is the closest we have seen to the Honorblades, as god metal that grants access to forms of Investiture in some manner. But nothing we've seen is really a 1:1 comparison.
Yer it is the closest and like i said above both being god metals seem to follow a similar mechanic in that they provide access to the magic system at a cost.
3 hours ago, beewall said:This is actually something I find makes it feel more likely to me. As of now, Moash is mainly just a less-skilled Szeth. He needs something to make him an actual threat, and I think learning of this could be part of it. (And the fact that he's got at least part of the soul of Jezrien, the Herald to whom the Honorblade belonged, feels like it could be relevant.)
I see Moash as a much worse enemy then Seth despite the slight difference in their swordsmanship. The anti-moral that he provides will make the bridgment and windrunners as a whole less effective when facing him.
3 hours ago, beewall said:I see a few potential downsides. One, the Honorblade may be harder to get off-planet - getting a spren off-planet is apparently difficult, but I feel like a solid object will be much harder to remove limitations on, however that ends up being done. Two, there's a lot more spren than Honorblades, so acquiring the former is much easier. Three (and I think this is the biggest one), stealing an Honorblade when you are unable to harm its bearer sounds rather difficult to do, especially given that seven of ten are guarded by one group who can probably rip your hand off if you go near any of them, one is held by Odium's forces, whom Hoid is trying to avoid, one is held by a Herald who can definitely keep his safe, and one is.... who the hell knows where Taln's Blade is, honestly.
Harder to get off planet then the spren he bounded, with tbe added benefit of a direct tap of investiture from the spiritual and no oaths, its an easy pick there for Hoid.
Even if Hoid wasnt the sneakiest person in the Cosmere and an excelent theif, he basically laughed at Jasnah when she drew her spren and said I doubt that would even hurt me. So despite his inability to hurt he could easily steal it, or just walk in and laugh as they do nothing.
3 hours ago, beewall said:Also, we know that Hoid left the second bead of lerasium because he could using Fortune tell that taking it would be a bad idea, and I would guess taking an Honorblade could similarly cause issues he does not want to deal with.
I was suggesting he take one blade, not collect all 10. A spren may offer the advantage of not needing to carry the sword, but if the sword gave him unlimited free stormlight I dont see him turning this down.
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8 minutes ago, agrabes said:
That's not really what I was talking about in terms of "Might Makes Right" and it's not exactly how that phrase works either. It's not that people decide who they think might be the most individually powerful person and just let them lead everything unchallenged. It's a cultural attitude - the idea that whoever wins the duel or the battle was the one who was right. The Alethi culture is that if a High Prince thinks Jasnah is wrong, then the recourse is to politically out maneuver her, force her to fight them in battle, or challenge her or her champion to a duel. There hasn't been a battle yet, Jasnah has not been tested as a political leader. At least not on screen.
Shes had a year time skip, and litterally her entire life as a heritec and princess, whes been politically tested. I also wasnt suggesting the just fold to her but she is clearly the most mighty and even if they disagree she can and will beat them into submission.
8 minutes ago, agrabes said:The Alethi are ambitious - so if one of the High Princes sees that there is discontent about Jasnah's new laws, then he or she will try to take advantage. They will work in the background to undermine Jasnah and build up support around him/her self. Maybe push to say that some of the Princedoms should be allowed to secede and become independent. The prevailing culture, especially among the top aristocracy, is to do whatever they can to gain the smallest amount of additional wealth, power, or influence. Some of the High Princes seem to have gotten past that, (Sebarial, Aladar, Hatham) but most are still down for the old school Alethi way.
They certainly are, like Dalinars complaint, to which Jasnah quickly and confidently reminded him it was her call, she was in charge, you will yield to me. She is leading like an Alethi (confident and powerful) and she can back up her bark both intellectually and physically.
Again im not suggesting they let her do it, im suggesting she will make them accept her rule. We have seen Jasnah not bend to others will and she is both powerful and intelligent.
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35 minutes ago, beewall said:
I guess, but that still doesn't really feel quite enough to me. But I have no logical arguments against it, just a gut feeling. So you're probably right, I guess.
Yeah, I know the feeling lol. When you know you had a WoB but just cannot find it....
I'd say that he probably could only draw a limited amount (whether that's a limitation of the connection or just how much a body can hold safely, idk, probably the latter), but this part's totally just a pedantic thing, so I'll drop it, as we seem to at least agree on the basics that the amount useable at any given second is limited with these things.
I agree alot of this doesnt have strong evidence either way.
35 minutes ago, beewall said:No, I did argue that at first, but then you pointed out that the idea didn't really make sense, so I changed my mind on that part.
Ahhh i understand now
35 minutes ago, beewall said:I mean, they clearly didn't manage to make perfect replicas of the Honorblades anyway. So I see it as plausible.
I agree plausable but given its extra will need evidence to support it.
35 minutes ago, beewall said:Allomancers and sand masters both draw Investiture from the Spiritual as part of the process of their powers. It's nowhere near the level of the direct Honor conduit, of course, but I think it is precedent for such a power existing, especially taking into consideration that Honor directly made the Honorblades to be powerful weapons, while the others appear to be more natural outgrowths of the magic.
I didnt look at them that way, and its certainly possible however both trade something for the investiture, the metal or water IIRC. Where as the Honorblades are not used up in the process so I think there is still enough difference to call the allomancy/sand master mechanic different from being a conduit but I dont have much evidence either way and could see this being work under the same mechanic
35 minutes ago, beewall said:Dalinar
But that's a smart-alek answer, considering he's a really weird edge case lol.
Haha he is a weird edge case but he also does that with the stormfather (and Tanavasts CS)
35 minutes ago, beewall said:I mean, the Honorblades are probably closer to spren than people, though I wouldn't say they're exactly the former either. (Unless I misunderstood the sentence.)
I think I worded this poorly, what i ment was the Stormfather is closer to a shard in term of power than he is to a normal spren, or even a normal spren is to a human. So i think his case certainly allows others entities to do it, but not just anyone to do it.
35 minutes ago, beewall said:I don't think we've seen anything on the level of the Honorblades before. Lerasium beads would be the closest, but an Honorblade both grants a more powerful power and is probably far, far more Invested than a bead of lerasium (though I suppose a lerasium blade could be Invested similarly?). I personally think that a Shard making something capable of letting someone draw power seems within their limits.
Honorblades are certainly more powerful, although a Lerasium bead permanentally gives you allomancy not just while holding it. And while it certainly gives stronger allomantic ability, it doesnt give some extra connection to the spiritual that allows the user to draw directly from the spiritual.
Ive also had two furth thoughts.
The first is about Moash and Odium, i think this is the strongest evidence that they do not grant investiture. As Odium would be aware of what the Honirblades can do and we dont see Moash performing Herald level surgebinding. The weakness here is that we havnt seen a significant amount of surgebinding on his half either.
The second is Hoid, if the Honorblades granted such a powerful and unique ability he would certainly be trying to get one, and I imagine would not struggle to do so.
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26 minutes ago, beewall said:
Too limited to Lash even a single object at Lift when she keeps escaping?
Its not so much the he doesnt have enough, its the learned response to opportunity cost. If he uses that lash now, when he coukd just chase her he cant lash later in an instance where he cna only lash. The cost while small in this case is not always and leads to a mentality of saving stormlight when other options exist. This mentality would not be present if he could refil his stormlight with ease.
26 minutes ago, beewall said:I've seen that one before, and it just hurts my head, to be honest. I'm not really sure what the heck he's saying.
Yer its painful, i thought there was another but couldnt find it. Basically breath sticjs better because its breath. And the second is the energy(investiture) is neither created or destroyed it changes forms.
26 minutes ago, beewall said:The heat needs refilling, yes (or according to Suit, it does; from what I understand, it is a subject of some debate). But the heat is not stored in nicrosil. Each medallion consists of two metals, nicrosil granting the ability to tap somehow, and a medallion with some of the attribute stored for convenience. So the heat is stored in an attached unkeyed brass metalmind, not a nicrosil one.
Yes i did confuse these, however, the necrosil grants only the ability to use the power stored. If you stored surgebinding it would grant you access to the surge an dthe ability to draw in (breath) storm light. It would not grant you direct access to the spiritual to fuel said surge.
26 minutes ago, beewall said:You'd think they would, yet they don't even realize they can summon the Blades instantly, despite the fact they've held the Honorblades since a couple millennia pre-Recreance. So clearly the Shin don't fully get it.
The summoning came later anyway, and the Heralds did not summon them in the same way (see taln just dropping his blade). The Shin would have not seen the Honorblades summoned/unsummoned to know this was possible. They most certainly saw the heralds surgdbind, and draw in stormlight differently to radiants. Even if they didnt its not a stretch to need stormlight and not realise your apheres are empty, keep trying to draw it in and use the Honorblade for this purpose the intent is there (give me stormlight) and they know they can draw it, the spheres just ran dry. I find it unlikly that a similar mechanic would not have been discovered.
26 minutes ago, beewall said:That's a fair point, and my mind completely blanked on that. So probably right about those.
Yeah, the rate is what I was referring to. Ultimately, they have an infinite amount accessible, but they cannot use an infinite amount at one moment (so no Lashing moons or something insane like that).
This is likely more an issue of how much they can use then they can draw at once, see Elend when drawing on Preservation. He could use unlimited allomancy, and he didnt punch a whole through the earth due to rediculous strength (with his foot and pewter, or steel and his anchor) but in either case the Honorblades being an unlimited source of power for the surgebinding it grants would make Moash unbeatable, especially given Odium would know if it could draw stormlight directly.
26 minutes ago, beewall said:I mean, the Nahel bond isn't exactly identical to the Honorblades. Spren take much longer to bond, and to reach the Blade state, for example. I would guess Honor had to design the Honorblades to hook up to the Spiritual, and spren simply can't do this (as you pointed out that it's highly unlikely lesser spren do it either).
You argued that lesser spren do this, i may have missread however. In either case the spren copied what honor did with the honorblades. They may have just not been able to do that but it seems like a stretch to say they copied honorblades except for that one major power.
26 minutes ago, beewall said:Yeah, this is what seems the most likely to me at the moment, as it's what normal medallions do.
Perhaps I should rephrase what I have been saying. I do not think the Honorblade itself draws SL, but rather that it allows the user to do so. So in this case, it would be granting an ability. I see it as similar in concept (though not actually mechanically the same, just trying to get the idea across) as if Vin ended up storing the ability to take in the mists.
Even if it granted this ability, it is not precedented, no where in the cosmere can a person connect to the spiritual and draw investiture forth. The stormfather is IIRC the only non shard to do anything close, and he is farther from a normal spren then he is a person. Given the mechanics weve seen by other shards its far more likely that this was granted through Honor than by a tool created by said Shard, especially when no other tool does this.
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5 hours ago, agrabes said:
There is a lot of power concentrated in the High Princes, who are basically a loose confederation of kings who swear fealty to a high king/queen. Alethkar's culture is very much "might makes right" and a culture of ambition.
I just want to focus on the "might makes right" of Alethkar. Who is more mighty than Jasnah, ill list a couple of things about her here.
1. Queen of Alethkar
2. Well learned (perhaps one of the most on Roshar) she could be considered a polymath
3. Huge political acumen
4. Elsecaller of 4th or possibly 5th oath and has no issue showing off her surgebinding capabilities
5. only Elsecaller
6. A very practiced, capable and confident debater
7. Her soulcasting ability, she literally soul cast steps out if air.
If anyone is mighty it is Jasnah and as such, Alethkar will fold to her will as they closly follow "might makes right"
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13 hours ago, beewall said:
Which is confusing even if he doesn't have infinite SL. Just.... carrying a bunch of gems should not be beyond his ability, and there is really no reason I can see that he wouldn't. I just don't buy the reason that it takes too much SL to carry it, Nale is capable of carrying a pouch.
Yes he is, but with pouches the stormlight is still limited, if stormlight was unlimited we would see him using surgebinding for mundane things when the surgebinding is better because theres no cost. If instead he needs to carry his stormlight it becomes a limited resource and hes likly to use alternative means where possible as only somethings can be done with surgebinding, and you dont want to not have enough to fly to the top of that building because you flew down that corridor to save 2 seconds.
13 hours ago, beewall said:I guess that's a possiblity, but as of now, we have seen no indication that the metalminds contain the source of Investiture (the definition they give in the book is different than the way we usually use the word, so "Investiture" on the chart likely refers to the former, not the latter).
Here are two WoB one focus on unkeyed but it talks about the two aspects of the investiture (ability to use feurochemy and investiture to power it), the second shows that the medalions which contain necrosil metalminds need refilling.
QuoteBrandon Sanderson
So one of the things people have been asking about a lot the nature of Identity and its uses for accessing other people's metalminds, and things like this right. And I hedged a little bit when somebody asked me... *inaudible*...send people into spirals of confusion, so I'm gonna clarify it for now. So, someone comes in and says, we need a blank metalmind, anybody can use that. I'm like, yes but, the reason that it's a hedge is that you need to actually be a feruchemist to access it, right, you can't just hold the blank metalmind not being a feruchemist, even though it's somebody else's investiture that's been blanked, right. So people keep kind of missing this thing. I'm hedging in the sort of, you don't quite have it, I've kind of dodged it, but I worry that it's just going to be confusing.
So the issue is, you need two things from one of these. You need something that makes you a feruchemist, and then you need a metalmind that somebody else has filled with blank investiture, ok. Now if you can get pure investiture, that can be used by anybody, regardless, ok, you need it in pure form though. But, so there are some other tricks with this as well that don't make it...so anyway, you've got a couple of things that can go on. So you've got a blank metalmind, right, with nothing. You need either investiture, to be able...like you need to be the right type. There are ways to access that if you are completely blank also, if you were a blank slate, but that is still...kind of hard. It's even harder if you are blank, and the metalmind is not blank, but that's not what they're doing in Mistborn right now. You are tapping investiture, gaining the ability of feruchemy and then you are drawing out a blank metalmind, ok. That's the one you need to be...and everything else I'm hedging on intentionally, and I'm worried I hedged in a way that made it sound confusing, ok. So you know now what they're doing. You know that there are other things possible. But I don't want you to think that you have the explanations for how all those things happen, ok.
Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)QuotePagerunner
At the end of Bands of Mourning, they couldn't refill the heat medallions, was that the brass, or the nicrosil they were having trouble with?
Brandon Sanderson
Let's RAFO that.
JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)13 hours ago, beewall said:Yes, but neither really understood the nature of the Blade.
Seth certainly did, having trained with them, and being part of the group of people that have had the Honorblades since the heralds relinquished them.
13 hours ago, beewall said:I may have misunderstood what you said then, my bad.
All g, it happens
13 hours ago, beewall said:Mmm, something to this level would be somewhat new, I agree. But I would argue it's not fully new. I would argue Breath likely draws small amounts (otherwise, why would it keep running forever and be able to just be recovered?), and I would further argue that the natural spren bonds many Rosharan animals have (such as chasmfiends) have likely do too. I don't think an Honorblade grants an infinite amount at any one time, but rather a very very large amount, and an Honorblade is likely far more powerful than either of the previous two examples, so I could see it working similarly, though not identically.
Ill post some WoB about the breath below I thought there was a more explicit one but they cover the points on how breath functions i think. On the rosharan animals bonding with spren, they most certainly get their investiture from the highstorms. If they could, why then would radient spren be unable to get investiture from the spiritual realm, they are more sentient and came about by copying the Honorblades. Yet they cannot so I doubt that normal, nonsentient spren can achieve this. It is also a point towards honorblads not doing this as thats what the spren "copied". If it is a conduit to the spiritual realm, then it grants an infinite amount, they may have a certain sized pipe to speek and are limited in investiture per seconds, but so long as there is investiture in the spiritual to be drawn, they can draw it (if theyre conduits) and can therefore draw an infinite amount.
QuoteArgent
Awakening and Surgebinding, Stormlight and Breath seem really similar in some aspects--
Brandon Sanderson
Yes.
Argent
--except Breaths seem to stick to things better--
Brandon Sanderson
They do.
Argent
--than Stormlight. So when you are holding the Breath it doesn't expire when you put it in something it doesn't go away. Can you tell me something about why that's happening?
Brandon Sanderson
Part of this is kind of inherent to the Shard and the power it's coming from. I mean the power of Endowment is just going to stick, that's part of the nature of its magic. Does that make sense? But it also kind of has to do with how the ecosystems are working. For instance the Stormlight is essential to the ecosystem of Roshar, it needs to be expended, it needs to get out and-- It's like evaporation, does that make sense?
Argent
Recycling? Not the recycling but the cycle of--
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, yeah like the cycle of water. And so just part of the way the nature of it works, it has to get out, it has to leak out, it has to run out. I mean it leaks even from spheres, right?
Argent
And when you lash things it's temporary--
Brandon Sanderson
Yep. And even though Szeth says that he thought Voidbringers could hold it they can't. Like it is just not the way that it works.
Argent
Can they just hold it better?
Brandon Sanderson
They can hold it better. It's not permanent. Now there are things that can do it permanently but--
Argent
Like the black sphere for example?
Brandon Sanderson
Well we are not going to... The black sphere is something different. You guys have guessed what the black sphere is, right?
Argent
Well we have some ideas. I support that it holds an Unmade. Am I wrong?
Brandon Sanderson
I'm not going to answer that.
Argent
But you said--
Brandon Sanderson
I'm just curious what the theories are. Book 3 the black sphere is-- Everyone who reads the books will know what the black sphere is by the end of Book 3.
Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)QuotePrncRny (paraphrased)
Why is Breath not consumed in Awakening, unlike most all other uses of Investiture?
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Not all Investitures are "used up." Much like energy, it isn't typically created or destroyed, just changes for. With Breath, in what it's used for, it is just more easily and readily recovered than in other forms.
Idaho Falls signing 2014 (Nov. 29, 2014)13 hours ago, beewall said:What I mean is that a lot of Feruchemical attributes are also Hemalurgically stealable. Strength, senses, determination (I would say emotional and/or mental fortitude count as this partially), memories, Connection, Identity, Investiture, Fortune (no way is "might steal destiny" not about this), and probably mental speed ("intelligence" probably means something similar). In fact, every single Hemalurgically stealable attribute seems to have a correspondent in Feruchemy (the various power-stealing ones would probably all be storable by nicrosil). As such, these all are part of the spiritweb.
Yes heamalurgy can likely alsos teal the base attributes, but when it steals the ability to perform feurochemy or alomancy it doesnt impart a chunk of power to use those.
On thinking about it, however, i may be wrong with alomancy as a necrosil metalmind stores the ability to use magic. The bands of mourning likely also had unkeyed metal minds for the feurochemy.
This does also fit better with the Honorblades as they grant access to a magic system, and not its power directly. I.E. they let a user draw in stormlight and surgebind, but dont provide the stormlight themselves.
13 hours ago, beewall said:I would guess this is more similar to how medallions are actually made of two metalminds, one granting the ability and one containing a metalmind corresponding to that. The Bands probably just contain other metalminds for convenience.
13 hours ago, beewall said:I mean, we have seen no indication that he tapped anything besides ability in regards to Allomancy.
Yes as above i think i did combind feurochemy and alomancy where i shouldnt have.
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5 minutes ago, beewall said:
There were definitely points where just a little Surgebinding would make it easier, of a small enough amount to not really matter.
Which if surgebinding is always limited by resources you learn to be sparing with it even small amounts. If he never had to worry about stormlight, then he would likely over use surgebinding even when not needed as it has no cost.
5 minutes ago, beewall said:Nah, it's confirmed new bodies get made. Which is... weird.
Super, probs so theres no they have to steal someones
5 minutes ago, beewall said:Sure, Intent can only do what something is able to do. Under this theory, drawing from the Spiritual is something it can do, thus Intent can use it.
I ment the intent of they think they need the metals to key it, but they dont and so are having the metals for no reason (not that i think this just an example) the metals IMO key the stored investiture for use, while the metalmind provides the spiritweb ability and the investiture for said ability
5 minutes ago, beewall said:Well, the MCs currently have zero Honorblades, and the plot going to the place that has them is probably Book 5 stuff, so they probably won't even get them till near the climax, I feel.
True, but seth had one for 2 books, and then Dalinar/Kaladin had one for another book so theyve played a significant role
5 minutes ago, beewall said:Heh, yeah, there's a lot of small details like this that get lost. Fair enough.
I mean, "that would be a new mechanic" was your argument.
I dont think i mentioned a new mechanic, a cognitive entitiy of sufficient powef passes investiture from the spiritual to the physical (Honor, Stormfather etc) this i feel is an existing mechanic. The Honorblade (which are non sapient) drawing power directly from the spiritual is more like a new mechanic
5 minutes ago, beewall said:Much of what metalminds store is actually part of the spiritweb, as shown by Hemalurgy being able to steal similar things.
There are two parts here, the ability to use a metalic art, which can be stone and stapled on, this doesnt staple a stored goldmind to your spirit web, just the ability to create and use goldminds etc
The metalmind provides this and the investiture to fuel said ability, this is most noticable with the feurochemic abilitys, Wax does not need to store his own metalminds while tappjng the bands of mourning, he uses the band of mournings investiture.
5 minutes ago, beewall said:No, because he can tap more of it at once to get stronger Allomantic ability, and I believe he taps smaller amounts of it at times. I'll have to reread to be sure on the latter part though.
Yes he can adjust how much he draws but hes fueling the allomancy with more investiture frkm the bands. I.E. it doesnt give his spirit web a stronger alchemy ability, it gives more investiture to the ability he can now use (temporarialy) and hence drains the bands faster
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24 minutes ago, beewall said:
I agree with this part.
I do not agree with this part. Dude surely has access to a decent amount of money, and spheres do recharge relatively often.
They do, but it is still limited and thus he wpuld only use what he needs to when he needs to. I.E. if he could accomplish something without surgebinding he would if it was not also using a limited resource as theres no cost but surgebinding has opportunity cost associated with it (unless you can draw stormlight from the spiritual) in that surgebinding now prevents it later (at equal portions)
24 minutes ago, beewall said:The immortal part, sure. But the new bodies part seems to be something else.
This is true and i agree it weird, it may be that they leave their bodies on roshar but we dont know enough and this is certainly different from the fussed.
24 minutes ago, beewall said:a. it's not a retcon, it's an established mechanic in Cosmere books that you often have to know about an ability to use it, and that your perception of your powers limits said powers; b. there only being one of each order is a rather large limit.
Yes intent plays a part, but a mistborn cant intent to use feurochemy and have it happen, theres a limit to what intent can do. Awakening shows this the best, grab something vs grab something when thrown thats not me etc.
This is a limit, but given well have less than 10 core characters not really a limit, all the MCs get an Honorblade and can sudenly blow everything up with bulk surgebinding.
24 minutes ago, beewall said:WoR 87. Kaladin does note that it's weird and has no gem.
I stand corrected, thanks for the link i missed this on my most recent reread
24 minutes ago, beewall said:Metals drawing from a metalmind when you burn them would be a much newer mechanic than Allomantic genes being added or strengthened.
Newer doesnt mean they understand it better.
24 minutes ago, beewall said:Correct. And the Investiture that these metalminds store is the part of your spiritweb allowing you to use Allomancy or Feruchemy, which under their definition of the term, is called "Investiture". (And would indeed be Investiture, as that's what the spiritweb is made of.)
They dont store your spirit web, they store the investiture used for purpose, when a normal metalmind is used they store their own things(health etc) which is converted to investiture and then they draw that investiture out and use it as it was store. They cant store weight and draw out speed.
24 minutes ago, beewall said:Why would you need to burn metals if it stored raw Allomantic power?
To key the investiture, and this may be an intent thing here, not realise the investiture is already keyed. However when Wax uses the bands of mourning the specific abilities investiture is used, proportional to how much he draws. If it just gave the ability the amount used would only be a function of time, not time and effort (for lack of a better word).
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7 minutes ago, beewall said:
Except Nale's also a Fifth Ideal Radiant, which I would assume would be more efficient than Kaladin.
I did forget this portion, however it still stands he did not surgebind where it would have made his job significantly easier, and so he is limiting himself for some reason. The most likley is to preserve stormlight as he may need more later.
7 minutes ago, beewall said:I suppose.
No? They're still immortal beings who are reborn into newly made bodies when they die, which is a rather big boost over anyone else.
This is due to them being cognitive shadows, which admitedly was done to them when tbey became heralds. I think it fits the champions of Honor to have a direct connection to his power than the honorblades having that connection.
7 minutes ago, beewall said:Because there's barely any of them, and because the MCs likely won't learn it until late in their arcs.
Perhaps, or you could just include a drawback to using the Honorblades that doesnt then require you to retcon how things work because they didnt think of it.
7 minutes ago, beewall said:That's deadblades. So far as I'm aware, Honorblades don't have gems.
Deadblades didnt either, they where added to give them the ability to dismiss and summon them. It would have been noted that the Honorblade laked a gem when Seth wielded it, or showed it to people as this would be something obviously different about it.
7 minutes ago, beewall said:Do you have a source for this? In BoM, the definition of Investiture they give is "the innate ability to burn metals or tap metalminds", so when they say "Investiture", they mean ability, not kinetic Investiture.
I posted a WoB, yes they dont understand the relmatics perfectly, but their lack of understanding the mechanics isnt an argument for a different mechanic to take place. Metalminds work by storing and then redrawing investiture for use later, with items like the bands or mourning they are storing allomantic investiture rather than speed, or health etc
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Just now, beewall said:
Well, Kaladin doesn't have an Honorblade, and if he did, he would not know he could enough to use it with Intent.
No, he also cant draw stormlight directly from the spiritual. So presumably as honorblades use more stormlight Nale would require more, so he would use surgebinding less. If he had access to unlimited stormlight he wouldnt holdback on the amount of surgebinding.
Just now, beewall said:You think Honor was following them around and fueling them manually the whole time?
Honor who is practically Omnipresent in the Roshar system (remember Dalinar can surgebind because the Stormfather is everywhere on Roshar) so not a huge concern for him to provide his power to his 10 generals while they fight odiums forces.
Just now, beewall said:For meta reasons, I don't think Brandon would have him say "an Honorblade could make you more than just an unoathed Radiant, but almost a Herald", and have it not mean anything.
Perhaps, but then doesnt that diminish the heralds. Why have stormlight be an issue that could be circumvented by holding an Honorblade. Especially given the Honorblades have played a big role in the conflict.
Just now, beewall said:Assuming that they knew the Heralds didn't need it. They knew of Radiants, they may have just assumed it was similar. Or perhaps they knew of it in the past and forgot about it. I mean, presumably in the past they didn't think 10 heartbeats were required, as they found the Blades long pre-Recreance. And yet, they now assume it needs 10 heartbeats.
The Shin gound it straight away so they saw the heralds.
Yes but they also didnt summon/dismiss them as this was worked out later by affixing a gemstone to the pommel and so they would have copied off of that and not the heralds, who disnt dismiss their blades.
Just now, beewall said:The Investiture stored is what grants the ability to burn a metal. This runs out as you tap it. But burning a metal still draws the power for the Allomantic effect from the Spiritual.
No, they store their allomantic investiture into the necrosil metalmind. The necrosil investiture is used up instead of the spiritual. You drain the investiture from the metalmind. And the amount you drain is proportional to the amount of power used. Wax says he would need to compound to add back into the metal mind, if they drew from the spiritual he could just pour the investiture into the metalmind.
Something is being taken from the necrosil portion of the metalmind see below.
QuotePagerunner
When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?
Brandon Sanderson
Good question! Like a coppermind.
General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)0
Navani: where does she go from here?
in Stormlight Archive
Posted
Perhaps, but she could have made this discovery after her imprisionment and then Odium would not also have this weapon.
Working with the enemy to develop a weapon isnt the wrong choice? Because she did work with her, she was barely cohersed with simple promises of knowledge.
Again, she chose to work with the enemy, and not just singers, which could be justified as just another group of people that working together we can reconsile our differences, it was working with a fussed and Odium to again develop a weapon.
So tempted by Odium and for knowledge, she knew anytbing she discovered would end up i Odiums hands, she didnt care. This is the crux of the issue, she chose to further her own knowledge and renown rather than not working with Odium, the choice is simple, she just wanted the carrot and didnt care how big the stick was.
Did she, what influense other than giving them a weapon and giving them the location of a node did she have? She didnt bargain for her peoples safety, she bargained for knowledge and trusted the empty promise of well leave the tower, who would have thought that a fused would lie to her.
No it wasnt idle, she activley developed the equivelent of a nuke for them. Which again is the issue, she activly worked with Odium to develop a weapon. Choosing to not look at it that didnt change that she knew Odium would use the knowledge she found and weaponise it.
Ohhh no dont look through my things, please dont listen in on me, she didnt try very hard, writing it all in her notebook. Again just because she lied to herself doesnt mean she didnt hand nukes on a ailver plater to Odium
not difficult at all, do you a) work with Odium for no gain other than knowledge or b ) dont work with Odium. The choice really is simple, ahe wasnt tortured, her peopke wernt tortured it was hey come to the dark side, we have cookies. If she had been forced things would be different but she chose to betray humanity for a little bit of knowledge.