GudThymes

So, all investiture throughout the Cosmere was originally one aspect. That of Adolnalsium. When the original power was splintered into the 16 Shards the investiture was "split" into those intents. With the majority of each Shard's investiture being held by the vessel in the spiritual. However, there are remnants of each shards power still in other places. So whatever investiture that existed on Roshar prior to any of the Shards moving there would've remained whatever split of Intents there, however, I take it to be much more formless and more just "raw power". To answer the "take over" part of your question I'll talk about how a shard invests their power. So what Honor and Cultivation really did was take some of their own power from the Spiritual realm and kind of "move" it into the other realms to influence things on the planet (They have perpendicularities so this must be true). I'm not sure that we know all of the ways that they used their power, however, I believe that their investing allowed the creatures on Roshar to adapt and flourish more quickly, as well as modifying the ways that the investiture already worked. (potentially enabling the singers to change forms) So to answer your original question it's more like tapping into the existing powers and adding more stuff to it. The original investiture still exists (Stormlight) however it is tweaked in a way that suited Honor's goals.

I just took my Official Knight Radiant quiz (Windrunner btw) and was reading through all the descriptions and the Stoneward description stuck out to me as a good fit for Adolin. I think that Adolin can fit pretty squarely into the descriptions of the order. "Renowned as their finest soldiers" -- Adolin is renowned as possibly the best duelist and is described as being very effective in battle. "most interested in warfare, prowess with weapons, or athletics of any sort" -- Again, huge duelist and a military leader "Like a challenge" -- The whole duel plot of WoR was a huge challenge for Adolin "Taking on enormous projects (more than they can handle)" -- Again, duel plot. Huge project and definitely more than he could handle alone "Dependability" -- I think this is a good fit for Adolin but arguable. "sometimes gregarious, they are never flighty" -- I mean, look at his relationship history and the interaction with the prostitute in WoK -- He definitely does not run from confrontation "If a Stoneward is your friend, they will be there for you" -- Look at his relationship with bridge four in WoK and OB, and his continual supporting role across the books "Though not known as inventors or creators" -- hahaha, Adolin is definitely not one. " they are good at improvising solutions to problems in the moment." -- Can't think of any examples for this right now, but I imagine one's can be found. What are your thoughts? Regardless of his future, if Adolin took the test, what order would he be?

To answer this I think we have to first identify what the criteria for being a "god" is. Christianity as it exists on Earth generally agrees that "God" is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent. There are many many many philosophical treatises and arguments about this that go into a lot of detail. In other words though, it would mean that God is all good, all powerful, and all loving. I believe that the Almighty of Vorinism is akin to the Judeo/Christian "God" and would agree that the Almighty is these things. The reader, knowing what we know, can say that the Almighty is not God. He (Tanavast) was a mortal that gained power of the God that made him almost a god. So in this case, Jasnah's atheism makes sense, the very real "deity" that exists on their planet is not Omniscient Omnipotent or Omnibenevelont. The quote from Dalinar earlier in the thread will agree with me on this, he comes to this conclusion about the Almighty. Now, you mentioned that Gods do exist on Roshar. I would not say that this is the case. I would say they are supremely powerful beings that have transcended mortality and are able to wield the powers of creation but that does not make them a "God". That's my personal philosophy, and I think that many others would agree. There are arguments to be made about Adolnalsium and whether he/she/it/they were a true "God", however, I would say that Ado does not fit the criteria for the being "God".

Well, Aimia is west of Shinovar and we know highstorms aren't felt there (although it passes over) so I imagine that in the waters between Shinovar and Aimia a ship could drift indefinitely (this can happen in real life). However, the Everstorm exists, and we know it is strong across the whole continent. So we would assume that this would have sunk the ship. However, Odium has control over the storm as well as a form of futuresight. My theory is that Odium purposefully steered the First Dreams using his storm into a position that it would be intercepted leading a crew of humans onto Aimia. I don't think this is far fetched given the amount of mystery that surrounds Aimia as well as the fact that unmade have had their focus on it (theories on the unmade causing the scouring, etc.). What if Odium knows that he can't get what he wants from Aimia himself so he set up humanity to go there for him, retrieve it, and now he'll snatch it up from them.

I believe that the strata from Kholinar was specifically the windblades, not necessarily the whole city. Although I may be mistaken. Here's a quote about Urithiru and it's creation: I think that this implies that Urithiru and the windblades were either "placed" or created by the same process/entity or it would imply that Urithiru came from the same source as the windblades and then moved to its current location. If it's the latter I wonder if the windblades somehow made Urithiru?

This is a really interesting take, thanks for sharing this! I'm currently re-reading WoR where Kal is experimenting with his powers for the first time in the chasms and it is definitely described in a way that gives him a "rush" mentally, not just physically. I wonder, is the rate of stimulant usage in the population of people with Major Depression greater than the general population? If this is the route that Kal is going I would be very excited to see how Brandon explores the relationship between Kal + Stormlight and Teft + Stormlight (or even some other more neurotypical radiants like Dalinar).

I've seen a little bit of talk on this (but no major thread) and the consensus I saw was that the Fog was just fog and not "mist". Although, if we're talking scientifically about the gaseous version of investiture then I don't think it necessarily needs to be "mist" I would assume fog or some other gaseous description would work. I don't think it's Odium's power given that he hasn't really Invested much of his power into a world before (and he's on Braize). I like the other possibilities and hand't considered them. Good work!

@agrabes it seems we fundamentally disagree on some basic things that are making it difficult to have a productive conversation with how it is extrapolated out. That's ok, and I'm happy to have a discussion on morality via pm's or someplace else, but I agree it isn't worthwhile detracting from the original thread. I will say that I do not find the original statement that started this diversion made by Cortez to be morally wrong or that their opinion invalid. I think there is a lot of context and background that comes into forming that opinion that neither of us know. I agree with your opinion on reversing the situation. The problem is that in most cases a white person isn't living life with the same amount of prejudices and institutionalized biases as other minority groups do. While it isn't morally wrong for a person to not read about about experiences of other minorities or groups. I believe that in doing so we can gain compassion and empathy for those who have been marginalized and help to break down the systemic barriers that exist in our society.

The timeline is confirmed that this Novella is taking place in the year between OB and RoW: Link Also, Brandon is kind and the planned release date is before Rhythm of War's

I'm sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree with your sentiment here. "safer for the series integrity, etc." You're not wrong. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it. It's ok to get things wrong, humanity has been getting things wrong forever. But taking the "safer" route doesn't allow for change. Right now people with DID and many other mental disorders face very real stigma that makes it harder for them to navigate life, not even taking into account that they have to navigate their mental health concerns. We have to have this conversations and discussions. We have to bring representation for these people into the media. Have you seen "In the Dark" or "Atypical"? They're about people with different disabilities. While they're not perfect representations of these disabilities or the collection of people who deal with them in their daily lives they have enabled the rest of us to better understand the challenges they face and the realities of their lives. This is a good thing. We can simultaneously praise the representation while acknowledging their shortcoming. But you don't want to do that, you would rather us not talk about it "Because it's safer". People say Climate Change is controversial, people say that The Earth is flat. People are entitled to their opinions but science is not an opinion. I think you are grossly misrepresenting the debate around the DSM. The debate on it's contents is so that we can better identify and care for the people who fit the criteria within. We as society categorize things however nature doesn't fit perfectly in our boxes. Psychology is still an evolving field there are still discoveries to be made, just like all of science. We have a great foundation but there's still more to be learned (hence the 5th edition of the DSM), and that will mean we have to make changes along the way. It's ok to make mistakes as long as we recognize them in the future.

I'm sorry, but what? Is upset really the right word to use here? If my friend was in a car accident I wouldn't say that I am "upset" I would be concerned for their safety. If that's what you meant, I agree. Otherwise I find this representative of the incredibly vast stigma we have around mental health. I agree that it is not morally wrong, and I'm sorry if I implied this. What I said earlier is that it is damaging and disrespectful to people with mental health issues -- I still stand by this. Would you be comfortable saying that statement about other marginalized groups? It's ok to feel this way, but if you do you need to reflect internally on why you feel this way and address it. I'm sorry, but you are factually wrong. There's a great deal of discussion about DID and how it is characterized, diagnostic tools, treatment goals, etc. But it's existence is not "constantly debated". Prior to the 1990's DID was diagnosed as "multiple personality disorder in the DSM" Since DSM-V it has been internationally recognized as Dissociate Identity Disorder. It's existence is not up for debate, clinical diagnoses have been confirmed by other "traditional" scientific tools such as Cat-scans and MRIs. Now if you don't know what the DSM is, it's THE handbook for clinical psychologists for diagnosing and treating mental disorders. I'm not even going to go into how disrespectful this comment is as well, it's just plain wrong. 1. Shallan, Radiant, and Veil are all distinct personalities that think about their environment and selves distinctly and differently. 2. We have seen amnesic episodes within so many chapters of this book. 3. HAHAHA, yeah. Shallan fits this glove handily. 4. It's not part of religion. 5. We don't know why her symptoms presented, although we can assume that since Brandon has done extensive research on the topic including first hand interviews that it is likely due to childhood trauma before the age of 7-9. This is not actually true, the gaps in memory do not "have to be an ongoing thing", reintegration actually requires the PTSD memories to be shared by all "personalities". Also, many people with DID experience what is referred to as co-con or co-consciousness where 2 or more alters* or "personalities" are conscious simultaneously and in the body together. While I agree that this isn't the perfect representation of DID, it is better than many others in modern media. It's important that we as a community allow these topics to be discussed so that we can de-stigmatize the disorders and people who suffer from them. And allow them to live healthier and more normal lives without us adding to their discomfort.

I understand and respect your opinion but I would encourage you to reflect on this, and share your reasoning with us. I think that "reading about someone with a mental illness spoils a book or prevents me from buying a sequel" is very damaging and disrespectful to people with mental health issues. There are people with this disorder who may read SA and see Shallan as a representation of their illness in a major novel for the first time and it may help them on the path towards healing. I think giving Shallan a magical way out of her illness cheapens any character development she has with her personalities.

ehhhh, I like the idea and how it could make them foils of eachother in some ways. I'm more inclined to think that she destroys images of herself due to shame. She probably knows that what she did in "abandoning" the oathpact wasn't honorable. And modern vorinism and many cultures venerate her and the other heralds. I imagine that creates a large amount of internal conflict/turmoil. It wouldn't surprise me that she destroys images of herself as an unhealthy way to reduce that internal conflict.

I think what you're referring to is what they called the "last clap" and I believe that the physics of that could be done regardless of the downward force. But I'll concede some of my point. Could you elaborate? Right so we know that aluminum doesn't "hold a charge" so to speak, which would mean that the "current" (investiture) would run across it (if we accept some underlying assumptions about how aluminum works). I'm not versed enough in fabrial mechanics but my theory is basically that the fabrial isn't just what's at the base of the spear, the spear itself is the fabrial. The aluminum creates a circuit between the gem at the base and the source of investiture it's feeding off of. Just re-read the original post and I think I agree with you except for the nuance that the aluminum isn't connected to any gemstone, but rather it is part of the fabrial. It would be a fabrial that mimics a larkin.

No worries. There were a few comments before we really started going on that thread where people called Gavilar a "jerk" or a "bully" or "cruel" and while those are absolutely true, I felt like it wasn't acknowledging the level of abuse that was present. I personally would consider calling abuse something other than abuse as dismissing it (maybe not the right word to use, I'll admit). The big takeaway that I hope others get from my comments is that the things Gavilar did in the prologue to Navani is abuse, and we need to be conscious of that and not be weary of calling it as such whether we are seeing it in media or in real life.

Even if that was the case you could still easily lop of the tip. I could have sworn there's a WoB that says that aluminum only protects against the Cognitive aspect of a Shardblade and the interaction would be down to regular force, so if you could use a steel blade to cut a spear in half then a Shardblade could do it (just not like butter). Maybe the aluminum isn't protection but rather feeding the fabrial that draws investiture. So using a living spren to cut it would hurt them in some way, and that's the reasoning why they don't lop off the tip?

Absolutely, I'm also really grateful for the mods and admins who created and run this site. I've never been a part of a fandom before, and I'm grateful for this opportunity they provide us.

@Dracnor, @Knight Oblivion thank you both, that's sweet. I didn't write this for the upvotes, rather because I wanted to steer conversation in a direction that I think can do some good/be more productive. Not enough to be honest. I read the chapter and felt sick by what Gavilar was doing, and felt the urgency to analyze it in a way that I think many who didn't will now be able to recognize the abuse as such. I don't agree with this sentiment, I felt like people in other threads were dismissing or not recognizing these actions as abuse -- It's why I wrote this. Unless more people chime in I think it's a matter of opinion. I spoke to this in the other thread you made this comment but I'll say something different here. Does it really matter? Sure we are curious as humans and want explanations. But having them doesn't change the actions. Gavilar abused Navani, now unless we are truly given an explanation for why he did this (other than the one he gave, I already showed how his "rationale" for some of the abuse was abuse itself) then I don't think this question matters. Let's talk about the Blackthorn for a minute. In WoK we are introduced to Dalinar as this paragon of virtue who is held in high esteem by those with Honor but looked down upon by the Alethi for it. Additionally, the Alethi seem to praise his warrior days as the Blackthorn. We see Dalinar engage in combat at the end of WoK and in WoR and become disgusted by the bloodlust, to the point that he questions his own capacity to lead. Then we get OB where we really get to see who the Blackthorn was, and we are disgusted by him. So is Dalinar, we learn that he was consumed by alcoholism to escape his own sins (mostly killing his wife, but there's PTSD and disgust at himself too). We like Queen Fen and others in world question his virtue. But, then we're shown something important. Dalinar was not this disgusting human, he was being manipulated by a shard and the unmade to do what he does. For many of us we accept this reasoning, and allow ourselves to forgive him. Some may not. Ok, how does this relate to Gavilar? Well if we are shown some magical reasoning for his abusive tendencies then I am absolutely ok with going down these arguments of whether or not he's redeemable. We haven't been given this, anything we can say is all speculation. My theory for why is Gavilar being abusive and how he got there? He is a megalomaniac, he was satisfied with uniting Alehtkar and having Navani as his bride. Then through the SoH he learned that the world was a much bigger place, and so his true nature was shown. He lusted for power and would lord his power over all those around him. You may not agree with my opinion, but we don't have enough to go off of at this point. We've had one new piece of information showing his abuse, and for now it's enough to condemn him as an abuser. However, given the magic of this universe we all love, he is still redeemable. But only through magic.

These two have no correlation in reality. Sure, sometimes Abusers are also terrible people outside of the abusive relationship, more frequently they're not. Abusers are the super friendly husband who comes at night and has too much to drink so he beats his family. They're the awesome bakesale mom who comes home and is emotionally abusive to her husband. They're that super fun friend who goes home to his boyfriend and controls everything in their life. They're the girl who is so jealous of every other girl in her man's life that he doesn't have any other female friends because of her. Abuse isn't that clean. It's not as simple as the big bad drug dealing gang banger that comes home and hits his girl. That's not reality, and that's the problem. Now, if we want to look for a magical explanation of his abuse sure, but I HIGHLY doubt there is one at this time. Let's look at some other examples of issues in this book for a baseline. Shallan has a dissociative identity disorder (WoB's say it's non-magical), Kaladin suffers from Major Depressive Disorder (somewhat magical, but majority is real depression), Tien was likely autistic (I haven't seen definitive proof from Brandon either way, please correct me if I'm wrong). Sure Gavilar could have had a magical reason for why he was abusive, but don't go looking for one in the shadows, if one shows itself then we can reassess. You're right, thank you. There are definitely some people who wouldn't recognize this as abuse. I would encourage them to learn more about abuse and the signs of it. But if they don't have the knowledge on the subject they should trust others who have done the research, or know from experience.

I'm sorry, but I haven't been saying he's evil. Just an abuser. I would be happy to hear your and anyone's thoughts on my analysis. As I said there I'm not an expert. But I don't like some things people are saying in defense of Gavilar. I agree with @Karger on how the books can cause very visceral feelings for some people. The way Gavilar treats Navani may remind someone of the trauma that they experienced. We can discuss his actions and motivations, but he abused his wife and we need to acknowledge that. Brandon Sanderson wrote the interactions for a reason, to spark debate and thought. And it's my opinion that we as a society should recognize that the way he treated Navani is unacceptable and then make sure we can eliminate that from our world.

I think the issue here is that people reading this section aren't recognizing Gavilar's abuse as abuse. I made a detailed thread on my analysis here (I don't know how to tag another post, so it's just a hyperlink), and I'm sure I missed stuff. That to me is the issue, we can discuss his rationale and reasoning absolutely, but we first need to recognize the abuse.

Preface, this is going to be long but it's important. I'm new to the forums and haven't had a chance to get to know people personally but I wanted to create this topic because I've seen some discussion surrounding Gavilar that I wasn't comfortable with. Rather than continuing in those threads I'm creating this to center the discussion of Gavilar and his treatment of those close to him here. If you feel like you are in an abusive relationship, Trust your gut, you can get support here: 1−800−799−7233 First I'm going to refer to some of the National Domestic Violence Hotline's criteria for abuse that I believe are relevant to the Prologue chapter: Just because someone does something that is on this list does not mean it is abuse. There can be a single instance of abuse or continued abuse. However, I think we can establish that the severity of a single action is what would make the action abusive, whereas continued actions from the list of criteria qualifies as abuse. Prologue: This is setting the reader up for what is coming. It's establishing that Navani isn't feeling like she belongs at Gavilar's side. BS notes that her anxieties/insecurities have gotten worse lately. In a healthy relationship she would be able to express this to her husband and he would be able to reassure her anxieties. This does not happen. This is number (2) from the segment above. He does not trust her. More evidence of lack of trust And more. Clearly this is a pattern, yeah? One time is circumstance, two times is coincidence, three times is a patter. Brandon is drilling this lack of trust from Gavilar into us. This is clearly (3) he has threatened her without resorting to physical abuse... yet. A glimpse into why she may deserve the abuse (spoiler, no one deserves the abuse, that's a sign of abuse). Number (7) he is accusing her of cheating, and is jealous of her relationship with Dalinar. No matter how founded it is. This is (4) he is humiliating her by twisting a once compassionate gesture into mockery. He is blaming her for the abuse (5) Wow, this is a lot all in one. He is calling her names, belittling her, and humiliating her for something she loves (1 and 4). Then he concludes with telling her that she isn't worthy of their relationship (8) This is the only quote I've pulled that I feel like is any stretch to call it abuse. But her internal monologue here "Don't let his lies become your truth. Fight it" Screams that he has been gaslighting her for an extended period of time. Here's what I find the most important part of the chapter, it's not evidence of actual abuse. It's showing how we normalize it. Our society and many of us normalize the behaviors I listed above. We say what Navani says that this was an "argument" and that they "bring out the worst in eachother". This is not the case, this is abuse, we need to recognize it for what it is, and not be afraid to call it that. We can have a whole long discussion about the justification or rationalization of what it is, but that just enables abusers. Allowing abusers to get away with these kinds of behaviors only protects them. We as a society need to do better by providing support for their victims and safe exits for them to leave their abuse. I'm not an professional in the field or anything close to an expert. Please, if you feel like there is abuse in your relationship, Trust your gut, reach out to someone -- You can reach out to me if you want. If you're looking for professional support you can contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline by calling 1−800−799−7233 If you are being abused or have been abused you need to know this. You do not deserve it, there is nothing that can make that true. No one deserves abuse.

We know that this has happened at some point in the past. The Herdazians have stone nails due to some amount of Singer ancestry so we know that it is physiologically possible for the two to mate (which isn't even a requirement for a relationship btw). Additionally, Moash is told that his name is a Singer name -- while a name can be stolen from another culture and not necessarily mean that they have any ancestry there. I've seen people theorize that Moash may gain the ability to grow a gemheart (love this theory) which is predicated on some amount of Singer ancestry. I think the only real options to us at this point for relationships are Rlain and some human or Venli and some human (we don't know their orientations although its probably a safe bet to say straight). I am really excited to get more facetime with some Singers and see what comes out of it.

I mean, we've got some good contenders within SA. Hoid and that Cremling? Stick and his Telos? Ash and Taln? RoW chapters spoiler

hahaha, I agree. Definitely flows off the tongue. *Whew* Wasn't the only one that noticed it, thank goodness! And yeah, it does seem strangely personal... Not saying it's a new ship....but it's a beginning of weird relationship at some point. Maybe Kaladin's going to have some second thoughts? Wasn't the whole Dalinar Eshonai thing about the fact that Eshonai was trying to stop the war in some capacity? They agreed to meet before she went all evil because of Venli. I wonder if there's a parallel intent here. Maybe Leshwi is trying to break ranks from the other Fused? Or combine the comments of Honor about the Heavenly Ones. Pure speculation but what if they were instilled with some of Honor's investiture and all of the Heavenly ones are trying to break ranks from Odium?