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That feels most likely to me, just who would he give it to? As far as we know he has not given it to one of the heroes (unless Jasnah is hiding it somewhere...)

I don't think he was an idiot (except for being an idiot to join Odium...) But rather the point was that he'd never used any surges before, he was experimenting with the powers in the fight he had no prior experience or skill with any of them. Kaladin still struggled because he was fighting fused at the same time + Amaram was already a skilled swordsman with two shardblades + shardplate.

I can't think of any good clues, something to keep an eye out for on a re-read perhaps. Here is the WOB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87-white-sand-vol1-release-party/#e5773 Notably he almost implies that Hoid took it but didn't keep it or at least he leaves that option open. Could Hoid have taken it then given it to someone? Who would he have given it to? Could he have taken it and then had it stolen from him? Is there anyone on Roshar who could successfully steal from Hoid? Or did he just leave it there? Who could have it: One of the other Heralds? Someone working for Odium? Mr T? The Ghostbloods? The Sons of Honor? The Skybreakers? Preservation? (As she once had Nightblood - maybe she likes looking after invested swords...) I genuinely can't think of any real clues to its whereabouts; something to look out for in a re-read perhaps.

Interesting point on this is Glys' reaction to discovering that Renarin has a corrupted spren - he seems to imply that he knows that this has not happened before. (sorry I can't look up the exact quote as only have the audio book at the moment) Yet then we have this quote "Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this."

I bring no answers... Just more questions that I think we need to work out to solve this timeline. I'd like to know how and where Nohadon fits into it all - from what we've seen he was somehow involved in the founding of the KR or at least I think he was, but he was in play after a desolation that was not the first one that humans were the good guys for i.e. it was the 3rd desolation or later (see the vision in tWoK when Dalinar meets him). Were the KRs as an organised group set up during Nohadon's reign or after? How were the heralds involved? Did Ishar somehow support what Nohadon had started? Also when was Urithiru built, was this under Nohadon? Was it some ancient artefact that was repurposed for the KR? Was it built by the KRs or some other way? Also how and when did Honor create the visions? He was apparently ranting and raving - going through his death throes when the Recreance occurred - yet the visions include the Recreance.

Kaladin + Venli? Seems bizarre and implausible, yet at the same time intriguing...

I'm not certain on this; Jasnah comments a few times on how the proximity of the cognitive realm is assisting her in this fight - I think Dalinar having fetched the perpendicularity leant particular strength to Jasnah and whilst she is certainly awesome I don't think she will normally be quite this extraordinary.

I think Taln genuinely did break - he took 4000 years to do so but he broke; I think the "measures" were a fabrication or something meaningless - this feels a lot simpler to me than any alternative. I note that if instead Taln did not break and the trigger was some action of Gavilar then the visions which drove Gavilar to act were effectively the trigger - but the Stormfather seems clear that these were from Honor unless they were an act of madness from Honor? OR set to come to force the desolation early because if it was delayed longer it would be worse for some reason? I think however we take this, one very interesting question is how the visions tie in to it all, what caused Gavilar to start seeing them - was there some kind of mechanism set up such that when Taln was near to breaking they'd start coming or was it something else?

No Timber is the daughter of the captain of the ship that the group used to get from the Lighthouse to the city in Shadesmar (not the Honor Spren ship, the other one). The ship's captain has a father who is a deadspren (killed by broken oaths) and is kept locked up in the ship AND mentions that his daughter ran off on a flight of fancy (or something like that) - sorry can't look up the quote as only have an audio book. Then when Venli is talking to Timber right at the end of part 5 she talks about how many of her people had been killed by humans, including her own grandfather. I think that Eshonai was close to bonding Timber though this process was slowed/seriously hindered by the change to storm form - Timber may have been the source of the screams inside Eshonai late in WoR.

I don't think Nale is capable of setting up such a court: he's half (if not more) insane he's always been set on following a law set by someone else -> how would he set one himself? I would love to see the Skybreakers follow the law of the breakaway group of Singers/Listeners I'm hoping that Venli will create but I fear that that is not what they will be following, maybe they will split with some of the Skybreakers turning to Venli's people and some to Odium's? Or maybe some of the Skybreakers will refuse the path nale is suggesting and go to Dalinar instead?

I think there's a high chance that Ishi sided with Odium a long time ago which would explain a lot of things including this. Another option is that Honor's ravings during his death had included concerns about the dangers of surges which Ishin took to mean that they needed to suppress/kill them.

It's not the knife that he uses to kill Jezrien; they give it to him afterwards.

Mr T stole Jezrien's sword and gave it to Odium's men, one of the fused then gives it to Moash; Moash therefore has windrunner style powers - but he's no windrunner he has sworn no oaths.

I think this idea of Ishar actively and intentionally working for Odium would explain a lot, perhaps he convinced the already weakened heralds to abandon the oath pact; then he slowly worked over time to weaken and eventually break the Knight's Radiant. I note that Honor is said to have died sometime around the time of the Recreance why is it that the Heralds abandoning the oath pact happened without Honor dying BUT Honor did then die many years later, WHY? Could it be that Ishar worked with Odium to destroy him?

That was a wonderful moment - though whilst reading it my immediate thought was "I'd love to know how Feather reacted to this".

There was a lot to like in this, and also a lot to be upset by; favourites are tricky. I think though my favourite character may actually have been Adolin, but for favourite moment either Dalinar's "I am Unity" moment or Jasnah's epic holding of the wall - how did Dalinar know that Jasnah would manage that? I'm unsure if he'd ever had an opportunity to see her in action before he just sort of assumed...

A slightly wild theory that came to me earlier is that maybe Cultivation's plan is for Mr T to end up as Odium's champion then fail in some way at a key opportunity.

The point on not being broken enough has come up a few times. Has anyone thought much on what Adolin thought to himself early in the battle about how his identity had always been tied to his skill with a sword? Also what if he learns what happened to his mother? I think there are certainly cracks there, they may need to widen a bit more but he definitely seems to be on the path to me.

I was thinking that he may have a while of not having a love interest - not all characters need to have one. Though I know Syl wants him to find one. Kaladin and Jasnah would certainly be an interesting pairing - though it is quite an age gap AND I had the impression that Jasnah was someone who wishes to stay single.

I think maybe Ash is going to become a Dustbringer; it certainly makes sense based on the above points - I'd like to know what she did during the battle - she and Taln were there but we got none of her action - do they have spren at the moment? Do they have powers? I'd also really like to understand more about Malata, is she bonded to a normal radiant Spren who is angry enough with humanity for the recreance to want to work with Odium? Or is there something else? (That said the possibility that Malata is exactly that a Dustbringer on the other side seems quite plausible in light of the Skybreaker's decision)

I'd like to know what happens next.... That said I thought part 5 was very good, I like that several open threads were closed but at the same time plently left open/new ones opened. At the end of part 4 I made some comments about what I wanted/thought going into part 5 (quoted form the part 4 reactions topic): So to points 1 & 2 part 5 gave us a pretty amazing increase in pace. To point 3 the scene with the sword telling Adolin it's name was great - I'd like to see him become an Edgedancer but I do so other's people's points about it being good to have some un-powered perspectives AND he really doesn't seem very broken. To point 4 we did seem to get a partial fixing, no magic quick fix but steps in the right direction Point 5, Mr T... Having seen Szeth's return he obviously had no choice but to either come clean on part of what he'd done or somehow make Dalinar irrelevant/dead - and he didn't seem able to take the second option; I'm glad Dalinar doesn't fully trust him anymore but I'm worried by what he's going to do next - I think his intention is what we heard - to save only his city as he thinks it's all he can do. I like the theory that there's some kind of other result unknown to him embedded into the diagram by Cultivation but I just don't know. I was disappointed that Dalinar thought of the idea that Mr T could be behind the attack on Urithiru but then dismissed it, I wanted him to get that right... Point 6 - happened pretty nicely. Point 7 - the scene came and it was great. Point 8 - the theory I came to early in Part 5 was that Honor and Cultivation had been the Parshmen divinities and the bulk of humans had arrived with Odium; though I think the Heralds came from somewhere else. Then somehow in time the two sides swapped Parshmen turned to Odium and humans turned to Honor. Other thoughts I now think that the "them" that Dalinar is meant to unite is Humans and Parshmen - I'm hoping that Venli is going to lead a breakway group of Singers/Listeners that then side with Dalinar I understand Nin's choice - BUT I don't understand how a large number of Highspren would go along with it - some yes but surely not the Highspren of all those Skybreakers Is Nin going to get himself killed by Moash when he goes to offer his services to Odium? Taln and Shallash appeared at the avengers assemble moment but then we didn't seem to see them do anything in the actual fight - what's next for them? Shallan and the ghostbloods, where is this going - also what are the Ghostbloods planning, I don't think they're on Odium's side (at least not intentionally) but I don't think they're for Honor or Cultivation (or Dalinar's cause) specifically either. Also in this space - what caused Jasnah and the Ghostbloods to become enemies? Who else genuinely thought that Dalinar was going to be turned? (and then was so glad when it didn't happen) What limits will be placed on Dalinar's ability to summon the perpendicularity? - if he can do that any time he wants to it seems like far too powerful an ability unless perhaps the "limit" will be the existence of stormlight using surgebinders on the other side meaning it's a two edged sword. Is surgebinding originally of Odium or of Honor? It seems strange that the powers of the fused (provided by Odium or at least that is what we assume) appear to be the same abilities as the powers provided by Honor/Cultivation -> though if the human divinity was orriginally Odium and they'd destroyed their previous world with Surgebinding perhaps Surgebinding is Odium's invention and Honor copied it somehow? Who is Odium's champion going to be, Moash? Nin? what about Mr T? Could Cultivation's plan be to ensure that Odium ends up with a champion (Mr T) who will fail at the right time? I'd like to do a much much much slower re-read.

So just through part 4, quick fire thoughts: A lot of lore and worldbuilding It seemed a little slow in places, I know it gave the characters more depth/time to develop but at the same time felt like some things could happen faster I was really hoping to see more of Adolin trying to talk to his dead spren (Adolin reviving his sword is one of my favourite theories) I really really hope that somehow the coalition that's just fallen apart can be fixed or at least partly fixed in part 5. I'd really like Mr T to die or at least be discredited this book I hope the return of Kaladin, Shallan and Adolin will a. happen early in part V and b. fix some things somehow We still haven't had the scene from the front of the book When did Odium get connected to the Parshmen - was he their divinity before the ancient humans arrived? Or is his involvement more recent?

I didn't know Brandon could do something so dark. With Shallan's scene with Wit I saw such hope and promise, I thought we were going to get a mini-rush of problems being fixed - I was thinking that the book's front cover scene was forthcoming with Jasnah due to be part of the reinforcements to come through and save Kholinar. But then wow so many blows in quick succession: The death of the street boy (and suffering of others) Shallan had been feeding (I know this was earlier but it was close) The discovery that Aesudan is possessed by an unmade and seemingly can't be saved The death of Elhokar (and several of Kaladin's short lived squad from the wall + some of the Parshmen he'd befriended) The evil of Moash's vengeance Kaladin falling apart It being too late the save the city AND THEN after all of that The oathgate being corrupted so they can't even escape (so there's a high chance the remaining soldiers they left behind including Kaladin and Shallan's squires) are going to be dead/imprisoned - and they couldn't even save the refugees who were flooding onto the plateau. It does remind me of the end of Game of Thrones - I never read book 2 of A Song of Ice and Fire as I found the end of book 1 too unpleasant I really hope Brandon is going to give us something positive soon. This was brilliantly done but just horrible; that said it felt very real - Elhokar's arc in particular was so well designed to feel so real; death is always meaningful sometimes things happen just too late. One other note - unsure on the amount of Wit, Vivenna and Nightblood we're getting, I know we understand them somewhat but if you try and think of the Stormlight Archive of as a self contained series they seem rather out of place - I was very slow to spot that Azure was Vivenna I really wanted her to be a Stoneward.

I'm in the UK but ordered from amazon US to get the better cover + the end pages and the Brandon written blurb... I'm a purist... So I won't have mine tomorrow. I'm hoping it will arrive on Friday or Saturday morning but there's a high chance it will be next week for me, I could get impatient and get the ebook as well so I can read this weekend, not sure, I'd rather read the physical book I enjoy it more that way.

I think a slightly more fundamental underlying topic here is - how is surgebinding such a structured and regulated system - it's like a magic system planned out by a designer with checks and controls included it does not seem possible for it to have organically grown.