Mzuka

On 8/27/2022 at 0:51 AM, Nameless said:

The pattern falls apart with Taln, as he didn't break for 4 millennia, which definitely falls under his primary attribute, dependable.

I think this is because Ishar shifted the weight of the entire Oathpact onto Taln; he became an extreme, almost caricature of his Divine Attribute, while the rest of the Herald's become the exact opposite.

With Jezrien, a beggar seems the antithesis of a leader (if a king is the epitome of it). And if you subscribe to the Liss = Vedel theory, that's a corruption of the Loving/Healing aspect. Pailiah is 'Learned', so maybe she's the woman in the asylum who keeps writing in her own faeces

So I'm not sure if this is a theory that's already out there and I'm late to the party - it's probably something a lot of people have speculated about, but I came across this quote in a WOBs Shardcast recently and decided to gather all of the evidence in one place:

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ncmagic97

In Oathbringer, before the Battle of Thaylen City, Venli is able to see some of the Cognitive Shadows of the Fused waiting in the Cognitive Realm and mentions some are as large as buildings. Are thunderclasts actually a type of the Fused?

Brandon Sanderson

She doesn't know. Thunderclasts are something different, and that is what she is seeing. She is not correctly identifying them. Good question.

The panelists and questioner didn't remmeber the scene clearly (it's a confusing one), as Venli actually notes that the spren of the thunderclasts do not seem like regular Fused:

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"Venli got to watch the thunderclasts awaken. Among the waiting spirits were two larger masses of energy—souls so warped, so mangled, they didn’t seem singer at all."

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book Three . Orion. Kindle Edition. 

From WoK days, there have always been some parallels between thunderclasts and Fused: we see thunderclasts in the prologue, and then the Alethi assume that the chasmfiends are the Parshendi gods. Pre-Oathbringer, a lot of fans thought chasmfiends might actually be thunderclasts, though this was debunked.

There are, however, some further parallels between the two: the thunderclasts clearly have a degree of intelligence, as seen in the Battle of Thaylen City when one of them targets the King's Drop (receiving instructions from Odium via a Fused). The same creature is smart enough in its clash with Adolin to concentrate on him, identifying his Shardblade as the greatest threat to it: 

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"For all the troops’ calls to distract the thing, however, it obviously knew who to focus on."

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book Three . Orion. Kindle Edition. 

"Tell Yushah I want her to stay out here and guard the prison. Kai-garnis did well destroying the wall..." (Odium to a Fused)

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book Three . Orion. Kindle Edition. 

In WoR, we get Kaladin and Shallan's perspective as they face a chasmfiend. The creature is cunning enough to wait for them, rather than going away once they hide in the slit in the wall. Kaladin observes:

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"That face was like something from a nightmare. Evil, powerful, almost intelligent."

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance: 3 (The Stormlight Archive) . Orion. Kindle Edition. 

We also have one more instance - that I could find - of a character picking up on similarities between the two - this time when Adolin faces the chasmfiend:

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"The beast regarded him with eyespots like molten rock just beneath the surface. He’d heard the descriptions of these things from his father’s visions—but looking up at it, he was struck by the shape of its face and head. A chasmfiend, he thought. It looks like a chasmfiend. The head, at least. The body was vaguely like a thick human skeleton."

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book Three . Orion. Kindle Edition. 

We get a description of this head from Venli at the end of RoW:

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"A shadow fell over Venli, and she started, staring up at a powerful long neck with a wicked arrowhead face on the end. A chasmfiend. Here. And no one was panicking. Storms. “That’s …” she whispered. “That’s how you got out of the chasms that night, during the storm?”"

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (STORMLIGHT ARCHIVE) . Orion. Kindle Edition. 

The arrowface reminds me of the shape of the mandras who inhabit chasmfiends and other greatshells, enabling them to defy gravity. As for why the spren of ancient chasmfiends - and possibly other greatshells - would be assisting the souls of ancient singers in an eternal war against the humans, the scene quoted above may hold the answer. At the end of RoW, Venli finds the remaining listeners and discovers that they have somehow bonded or befriended the chasmfiends, who helped them survive the chasms.

As we are often told, new things are made from old things. It seems plausible that the ancient singers may have had this ability, as this kind of symbiosis is common for Rosharan species. For singers, this bond may grant them protection, while for chasmfiends - and greatshells in general - it might increase their intelligence/cognition, similar to the Nahel bond: new things are made from old things.

We have seen in Rhythm of War that Chiri-Chiri - a larkin -  has developed her intelligence to the point that she can speak with "mouth noises". If the ancient singers had this bond with chasmfiends and other greatshells back at the time of the First Desolation, and it did indeed enhance their intelligence, then I think Odium may have Elevated these greatshells into what we now see as thunderclasts. When they manifest, they rip free of the earth, forming a great shell of stone around their spirit.

100% @StormingTexan plus his tone is clearly coy/joking in the clip. @Yumiya the SA5 prologue all but conformed it, especially when you consider the colour of Chana's hair being specifically brought up in the prologue- there is no reason to do that as a writer unless it's relevant, particularly when you consider how Brandon views foreshadowing. There's also the timing of the death (we know Shallan's Mum died on the same day), and how neatly this explains why her mum tried to kill her (probably following Ishar's instructions like Nale).

Also love how Brandon scattered number of little clues and winks throughout the text, such as:

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"Shallan was apparently no longer an outsider, but one of Navani’s clutch—and Chana help the man or woman who stood between Navani and one of her own."

Words of Radiance: The Stormlight Archive Book Two: 2 (p. 886). Orion. Kindle Edition. 

Chana is only mentioned by name twice in the first 4 books, and both involve Shallan - either in reference or conversation. For me, the prologue was as close to definitive confirmation of her parentage as we can get prior to the release.

On 7/20/2022 at 10:08 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

@Mzuka I have personally my own theory that Shalash is the gIRL who looked up. Shalash has white hair in official depictions and Ash has a red scarf if I am not mistaken. We know jezrien was a king, so Shalash would be a princess? Maybe shalash  is actually princess tsa not queen tsa and the details got forgotten.

One issue I have about the theory is it completely ignores Natan people being aimian hybrids which was the point of the whole story.

There's only one piece of official artwork that depicts Shalash with white hair though (Oathbringer, I think), and none show her with the red scarf - those are all fan drawings. And I would take the text as canon over artwork, and in the books she's described as having dark hair - and never with a scarf. All the same, Shalash is a Herald so I assume she was involved, though I don't know in what capacity.

As for the Natan people, them being descended from the Siah is pretty clear and it's what the story is about on the surface - I didn't see any point in rehashing it in the theory. I did get into how I think the Siah fit into the history with the Siah in this reply though: 

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/108858-ba-ado-mishram-the-first-desolation-the-heralds-queen-tsa-and-the-girl-who-looked-up/?do=findComment&comment=1365478

Long story short I believe it ties into what Ishar is up to right now with his spren experiments.

On 7/20/2022 at 9:31 PM, bmcclure7 said:

She would be the only one other then wit in kolinar who would know enough to want to trade a shard blade for an honor blade (that is if she is vedel). 

Yup that's why I think she's a good candidate. Also from a writerly perspective, putting Liss there and having no payoff seems pointless - and if she is Vedel, what other purpose does she serve/what could she have been placed there to do? The female Heralds must have been up to something.

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Is there any proof that she was even in the area? 

Who, Liss? We only meet her in the Jasnah prologue of Words of Radiance. Jasnah pays her to remain in the palace watching over Aesudan:

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“You have instructions in the envelope,” Jasnah said. “Along with initial payment. I chose you because you are expert at extended observations. It is what I want. For now.”

Liss smiled, but nodded.

“Spying on the wife of the heir to the throne? It will be more expensive this way. You sure you don’t simply want her dead?"

“I accept the cost,” Jasnah replied. “In one week’s time, I will arrange for one of my sister-in-law’s maids to be released. You will apply for the position, using faked credentials I assume you are capable of producing. You will be hired. “From there, you watch and report. I will tell you if your other services are needed. You move only if I say. Understood?” 

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance: The Stormlight Archive Book Two: 2 (p. 24). Orion. Kindle Edition. 

We know Aeusdan was in Kholinar until her death in Oathbringer (well after Taln came and went), and get no other mention of Liss in subsequent books. We don't see any sign of Liss when Kaladin and the others reach Kholinar in OB, so Liss/Vedel was either laying low or she'd already scattered - maybe after Taln's arrival.

Another small piece of signposting that Liss might be Vedel is the guard Jasnha finds her with:

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The man would be Liss’s new servant, and his presence meant Liss hadn’t left, despite Jasnah’s tardiness. Composing herself, she nodded to the guard—a Veden brute with red speckling his beard—and pushed into the room. 

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance: The Stormlight Archive Book Two: 2 (p. 23). Orion. Kindle Edition. 

He's Veden: each of the Silver Kingdoms was associated with a Radiant Order - and, therefore Herald - during the Herladic Epochs (Alethela was associated with the Windrunners/Jezrien etc.). We don't have confirmation of which Kingdom was the home of the Edgedancers/Vedel, but I'd bet money it's the one whose capital is Veden City.

And as @En-priestess noted:

On 11/23/2020 at 0:42 PM, En-priestess said:

But also, a lot of attention is paid to her unusual ability to shift her accent. Jasnah comments on this twice:

"could have been Alethi. Or Veden. Or Bav. Depending on which part of her accent she chose to emphasize." - WoR prologue

"You're the one payin'" Liss said. A faint Bav dialect showing through. If it showed, it was only because she'd wished it." - WoR prologue

This thing with accents reminded me of what Lift does in Edgedancer when talking to the street urchin in Yeddaw - how she naturally adapts her speech to be able to communicate/connect with him. I feel like Liss's ability to shift her accent to sound native to any of these places seems a lot like the theorised Edgedancer resonance of enhanced communication with others. 

On 7/14/2022 at 2:20 AM, bmcclure7 said:

I thought we're all taking for granted that hoid has The stone ward honor blade?  I mean he is literally the only one who could have taken it and he hand yet has been collecting powers so why would he pass on a honor blade?  I don't understand why people are so confused about this?

My pet crack theory is that Liss (the assassin with an Honorblade) either has it or got Taln to dismiss it. She has a Shardblade handy that she could have given to Taln, which would explain where he got one. She was also in Kholinar at the time (asx far as we know) since Jasnah planted her in the Palace to spy on Aesudan disguised as a maid (on the night of Gavilar's murder).

As for why she would do this, and how she would even know about Taln - I subscribe to the Liss = the Herald Vedel theory. A Herald whose Divine Attributes are "Loving, Healing" going Falling into an assassin seems logical, and Liss is described as having dark hair (same as Vedel). We know she isn't one of the Heralds who recclaimed her Honorblade by the time Szeth left, and have no indication that she has since, so the Blade she carries wouldn't be an Honorblade.

Now either she got Taln to dismiss it and gave him her ordinary Shardblade to cover him (as an apology for screwing him over half a millenia ago?), orrrr she switched them out for some reason.

Thanks @Argent this is very interesting. I think I watched the stream with the WOB but didn't know what the question was based on. That's some heavy-duty etymological analysis., damn...the fact that everyone came to similar ideas regarding BAM's nature based off that is really cool and telling.

One thought I have is on the breakdown of the name meaning, specifically the "Ba" part of it, and it's parallel's with the master-apprentice relationship in Thaylenah:

23 hours ago, Argent said:

Ba, similar to "bah," a Thaylen word that seems to convey the relationship between a master and an apprentice (e.g. Rysn Ftori bah-Vstim) but that could've easily started off as one suggesting parenthood. It is notable here that the Thaylen language may have been derived from the Dawnchant, so it's plausible that the ancient word for "child of" could've morphed into "apprentice of" or something like that

What if the original word the it is derived from wasn't a parent-child relationship, but a master-slave relationship?

Thinking about how Kalak refers to BAM as 'Mishram' not 'Ba-Ado-Mishram'. If my theory is correct about the Heralds knowing her before she was Unmade, then this could be done out of familiarity: perhaps she only got the 'Ba-Ado' suffixes after being Unmade (same might be true of some of the others)? A new name seems appropriate for such a drastic shift in Identity.

In that case, her being named the 'child of the Light Cultivation and Honor' after being corrupted by Odium doesn't make much sense, but 'enslaved/Taken from the Light of Cultivation and Honor' (or something denoting a slave made from their 'Light') is appropriate. 

Of course, Kalak might have just been using shorthand and her name could have been BAM from the get-go. Either way the linguistics seem to support the theory

15 hours ago, Friendly Cremling said:

This is a great theory! You’ve convinced me. Pretty sure there’s an army of awespren around me in the Cognitive Realm right now. They broke the magic system because I felt such powerful awe. Seriously this is awesome! How in the raging winds did you have time to make this? 

Hahaha thank you! The answer is it took several days typing out bits and pieces when I had a minute. Didn't really mean for it to be that long but I kept finding more interesting connections and questions while looking at the stories.

On 7/15/2022 at 11:31 AM, Proletariat said:

This suggests that humans can bond in a way that Singers cannot, but we have seen multiple Singers bond spren. Even the Sibling seemed certain it was possible, and it seems down to trust that this bond does not happen rather than physiology. The stones of Urithuru have also spoken to Singers who have the surge of Stoneshaping before. It is therefore not this bond that is the 'meat' that spren sought.

True we have seen singers form a Nahel bond with spren, but these kind of bonds didn't exist until the spren started mimicing what Honor did with the Heralds. The Stoneshaping that the Dawnsingers did use the same surge, but they didn't form Nahel bonds. I believe this Desolation is the first time a singer Radiant has ever been form, given Leshwi's shock when she saw Venli's spren.

On 7/15/2022 at 11:31 AM, Proletariat said:

Finally there's a possibility further to this that I was considering based on your evidence. The Everstorm was necessary for the Singers to get complete access to powers once again and for Voidspren to freely jump between realms without Odium, but outside of that it required Mishram to give Singers powers. The quotes you give indicate that humans brought the highstorm in a way not dissimilar to the Everstorm, which Odium apparently can't put back in the cogitive realm either:

So my suggested amendment to your proposal is that humans did make a deal with Mishram and the spren as in the stories, which changed everything and provoked the Singers to turn to Odium, but that this brought the Highstorm as a permanent fixture over from the cognitive realm...

For the point about the highstorm, I think Brandon has said they predated even Honor and Cultivation's arrival. They might not have been Invested though, so perhaps that's the change that occurred (though I don't know how singers would Stoneshape without Stormlight). It's also possible that spren were not a heavily in the Physical in all of Roshar prior to humans arrival. We see in the books that humans attract lesser spren - emotion spren and all that - much more than singers. Perhaps prior to the Heralds meddling. spren interacted with the Physical Realm much less directly?

On 7/15/2022 at 11:31 AM, Proletariat said:

The second issue adjacent to this is one of chronology. The Fused appeared before the Heralds received their powers from Honor, and the Knights Radiant (i.e humans with surges) came after the Heralds and were not expected by Honor. That means that whatever it was that led to the Fused feeling screwed over by spren going over to humans happened before they got Radiant bonds.

On this, while I agree that the Fused appeared before the Oathpact, that does not mean that the Heralds were not tampering with Surges prior to this - it was exactly that that led to the destruction of Ashyn. 

"A Bondsmith [Ishar] bound other Surges and brought humans to Roshar, fleeing their dying world. A Bondsmith created—or at least discovered—the Nahel bond: the ability of spren and humans to join together into something better.” - Syl (Rhythm of War, Interlude 1)

Ishar is fond of fiddling with Connection (lol) and pulling things between realms - even to this day. Maybe he himself formed a bond with Mishram, or one of the other Heralds did (I actually think Chana is another one who might have been heavily involved but that's a tangent). I don't know how Surgebinding worked pre-Nahel bond but if anyone could, it's Ishar. Regardless, this could be what pissed the Fused off.

On 7/15/2022 at 11:31 AM, Proletariat said:

Another is that while I think you're right it's about humans effectively breaking their promise by getting in touch with the mysteries of the world, spren, and light etc. the story also seems to hint pretty heavily at the origins of the Siah Aimians. Is this perhaps a hint that whatever the original type of connection made for the smartest spren was to do with the Siah? Were they spren who were brought over in a way that allowed them to entirely experience humanity and start families with them? 

This is what's really blowing my mind though cause I hadn't been able to parse through that connection. The Siah Aimians have always seemed similar to spren (what with the wrong way shadows, sculpting their bodies). They particularly resemble honorspren in skin tone, and their nails etc. - especially after RoW when we see what an honorspren looks like pulled into the Physical Realm for real. Dalinar even initially mistakes an honorspren corpse for a Natan man.

Before that, I couldn't see how any spren would interbreed with humans so it seemed irrelevant, despite the fact that the crux of Tsa's story is her having hybrid child with a god/spren (Honor's moon, of all of them).

Spren want to get closer to the Physical Realm: that's the whole deal with the Nahel bond, and is what the listeners and singers see as their reason for choosing humans over singers. But Mishim/Mishram wants so much more in the story: she wants to physically come down and enjoy the world of mortals:

"she doesn’t want to be in the sky, sir. She wants to escape." (Oathbringer, 35)

Perhaps Ishar helped her and some other spren - forefathers of the Siah? - temporarily experience the Physical, in the flesh? Which is definitely something the singers couldn't offer:

"We can't provide what the humans lend/Though broth are we, their meat is men" (Words of Radiance, 32)

Note the language of the listener song: it's temporary, just as Mishim's exchange with Tsa is temporary. It seems like a bit too much of a crack theory, but consider the fact that Ishar is literally doing this exact thing right now (his Essence is Flesh by the way, shoutout @Argent).  

What I can't figure out is how they would have done this back in ancient times, cause if they were able to do it back then surely Ishar wouldn't be so bad at it now? Unless they had a tool then they don't have now, one that would somehow make transforming spren into Physical beings possible. A magical tool of transformation, such the Dawnshard of Change? The one that was hidden in Aimia, with the Siah. I'm gonna stop there because my speculation is going to get tooooo wild haha.

A couple of other interesting questions maybe someone else can think about: what happened to all the smart spren that existed before the humans? The ones that the singers imagined, with four genders. Cause those are the ones that I assume would be closest to Mishram, magically speaking.. A lot of them might have been bonded to Radiants (which could be why they decided to break their bonds when they bound Mishram - or to do with whatever they feared).

"I was there when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured. I know the truth of the Radiants, the Recreance, and the Nahel spren." - Kalak (Rhythm of War, 94)

Who are the Nahel spren? I've always thought of it as the sapient spren, which I'm sure it does mean as well, but where did that term come from historically? How does it tie to Mishram, and the original betrayal of the spren? Why did Ishar think that forming new Nahel bonds would trigger a Desolation? I feel like he may have been the reasoning force behind the Recreance, since at least Nale and Kalak were there and they seem to take his lead on Realmatics. 

On 7/13/2022 at 10:38 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I really like this theory. I thought The Girl who Looked Up was possibly about moving to Roshar from Ashyn (thus the appearance of highstorms for the first time) but I guess Shinovar is also highstorm free...

Though both events could have gotten blended into one over millennia of legend, so the same story kind of refers to both now that they're not remembered as separate events (or as historical events at all).

I didn't get the broader connections of the Queen Tsa story at all.

Mishim = Mishram is especially interesting because isn't there a reference to "Honor's Moon" which would imply the three Shards are linked to the three moons?

But Odium wasn't originally one of Roshar's Pure Tones... if Mishram was originally of Roshar pre-Odium, but is of Odium now, that could explain the connection.

I do think the events could have blended together as these things do - and Shinovar was basically an extension of Ashyn on Roshar. For the Honor's Moon stuff, for sure and I think each of the moons align with one of the Shards here. I think it's more thematic than anything though, and even a bit of a red herring as its the connection I initially drew. I agree that the Unmaking of Mishram was probably a big step towards Odium becoming part of Roshar.

On 7/14/2022 at 7:00 AM, Icy said:

What if unmaking Ba Ado Mishram is not only what broke the connection between the singers and the spren, but what created a connection between the singers and voidspren/odium which allowed them to take forms of power? Did Singers successfully infuse Mishram with voidlight, like they attempted on the Sibling in RoW, in order to corrupt the spren and subsequently their bond to all spren to become of odium, creating a connection between the Singers and Odium? 

What if unmaking the Sibling would have done something similar to the humans? The humans were losing access to the surges in the tower because their connection to the spren through the Sibling was being destroyed, but what if it was actually "switched" via the influx of voidlight? When Kaladin fought and defeated the Pursuer, he didn't glow blue with stormlight.

Like voidlight? Did the partial corruption of the Sibling create a new connection between humans and Odium allowing them to use voidlight? It would explain the gruesome nature of Kal's defeat of the Pursuer. Kal, in a rage of fury and passion, was clearly drawing some sort of power, inspiration, or SOMEthing from Odium - it was a moment of passion and hatred. Would Kal have drawn voidlight if the tower wasn't corrupted? Was this just a side effect of the tower's corruption? Maybe, but i dont think so. I think this was this a symptom of the real effect of unmaking the Sibling - corrupting the bond between humans and spren. 

I also think this could be why Odium was able to send Kal the nightmares/visions. The corruption of the tower seems to have buffed Odium's connection with the humans as the Sibling was being unmade.

More importantly, if unmaking Mishram allowed Singers to take forms of power, could rescuing Ba Ado Mishram reverse the effect and return to Singers their true forms? 

 

Really like the idea of Unmaking Mishram establishing the Connection between singers and Odium! Seems very plausible. For the Kaladin scene in particular, I read the yellow eyes as a Connection to Odium due to his emotional state: Odium was trying to make Kal his champion and the death of Teft had put him in a vulnerable state. But the two don't have to be exclusive. I feel like it makes sense mechanically.

I don't think freeing Mishram would reverse the effect though cause as @bmcclure7 said, she would still be an Unmade.

15 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I love this! I think you nailed it. I had assumed the child of Queen Tsa was the Sibling prior to RoW, but after RoW I kind of forgot about Queen Tsa entirely . I really like the idea that BAM was The Sibling before the Sibling. They both make Light her entrapment hurting all spren of Roshar fits with her being of both Honor & Cultivation like the Sibling. 

Connecting Mishim from the Tsa story to how the Heralds call BAM "Mishram" really cements it to me. The Betrayal of Mishram that Kalak mentioned being humans using the powers (or at least the Light to fuel the powers) she gave humans to conquer Singers makes sense to me. 

Thanks! Honestly, I hadn't connected the Tsa story and all these dots to the Sibling at all until recently.  If it's true it adds some new context to why the Sibling seemed so resentful of Melishi's plan to trap BAM, and why they withdrew after her binding.

On 7/8/2022 at 10:09 PM, Gderu said:

Amazing theory, you've definitley convinced me. The only past theory that convinced me this much was one I read that claimed Ishar is Tezim (pre Oathbringer) which turned out to be correct.

Thanks! And yeah that theory was rock solid.

13 hours ago, Stonerward said:

Really like this idea of BaM being the Singer version of what the sibling is to humans. 

There is something already which links Singers to Roshar and that's the Rhythms so don't you think that's what she would be the Speen of. Would help explain how she managed to get voidlight by attuning the song of power and it'd probably be very useful to get singers to attune the correct rhythm to get them in the mindset to attract void spren for Regals. 

Like a spren of Rhythms/songs? That's an interesting idea. I'm not sure to be honest...but it could fit with how the Sibling couldn't hear their song after the imprisonment (thoguh that could just be cause Honor is dead). And the Sibling does say that Mishram's imprisonment touched all who belong to Roshar so there's that...

But I think if she was just the spren of Rhythm's then the parshmen wouldn't have been specifically affected. I think it more likely that Mishram had a Rhythm in the same way the Sibling's Rhythm was the Rhythm of the Tower - and the song of science.

I don't know what Mishram's would have been though. The Rhythm of Freedom? Song of songs? No idea tbh.

On 11/16/2021 at 9:28 PM, Invocation said:

As cool as that would have been, Nightblood's Ruinous Investiture (because there is some of that happening, per a WOB that appears to have been literally back-to-back with the one above) comes from somewhere else.

For what it's worth, it would have been pretty cool for Nightblood to be atium.

Damn this is heartbreaking, thought I had something. Thanks guys, it was fun while it lasted...

There's not a lot to this theory beyond speculation, but I was watching the Shardcast where they go over the Word of Brandon that states that Nightblood is related to Ruin in a "non-trivial way". That got me thinking about the way Nightblood's frenzies are written - they really remind me of the scenes where Ruin is enraged/showing his true self in HoA and Secret History.

Bearing in mind the fact that the Five Scholars were Worldhoppers who at the very least travelled to Roshar, I think its reasonable to assume they visited Scadrial too (I believe there's a WoB about interplanetary travel occurring on Scadrial at least as far back as the Lord Ruler's time).

We also know that they got the inspiration for Nightblood from observing Shardblades on Roshar in their travels. As scholars, I imagine they did a thorough examination of the Blades and were probably aware that they were all alloys of godmetals (Cultivation's + Honor's). So when they went off to create their own via Awakening, they may have used ordinary steel - but they might also have tried to use something more powerful (and similar in composition to the weapons they were trying to emulate).

Now imagine they're on their way back from Roshar and already thinking about how to make their own Shardblade. Unfortunately, godmetals aren't generally that common or accessible (in that state) on most planets in the cosmere. An exception to this, at least in the era when the Five Scholars were travelling together, is Scadrial. In fact, the perpendicularity to Scadrial at the time was the Pits of Hathsin, which just so happens to be filled with Ruin's godmetal.

As well as being relatively easily accessible, there may have been (perceived) mechanical advantages to choosing Ruin's specific godmetal too. Since they intended to create a Blade to "Destroy evil", which better metal to use than the one made from the Shard whose Intent is as destructive as it gets. It might have seemed like a clever way to harness Ruin's destructive potential for good (which obviously didn't go quite as planned). There may be more properties specific to atium that were beneficial - perhaps it's relation to Fortune/Connection helps with luring in those with evil/detecting evil. 

One immediate issue I observed with this theory was the act of Awakening itself - we don't know if its possible to Awaken a godmetal but the rule of thumb has been that highly Invested objects resist cosmere magic - be it Surgebinding or Awakening. Given that atium is literally solid Ruin Investiture it would probably be extremely resistant. While its possible that they didn't use pure atium - they could have made an alloy of it and ordinary metal or something of the sort - there is a WoB that offers an alternative explanation.

We know that Endowment herself had a direct hand in the creation of Nightblood. I'm not sure of the exact words, but I believe she assisted the Scholars without their knowledge for her own purposes. Until now, I had assumed this was just because Awakening steel/creating a weapon that powerful was beyond the Five Scholars, but maybe the real obstacle was in Awakening a godmetal.

If this is true, then endowing a blade of atium with enough Breaths to Awaken it would essentially make the Blade an alloy of Ruin + Endowment's Investiture, much as Shardblade's are alloys of Cultivation + Honor's.

52 minutes ago, Windshaper said:

Yeah so I think what's happening with the deadeyes is comparable to what was wrong with:

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The seons in Elantris. They were cut off from their Connection to Devotion until Raoden added the line to the ground.

I think this is why adding gemstones to Shardblades partially revived them (remember BAM is trapped in a gem) - as it allowed some partial Connection.

I also think we as an audience/Adolin misinterpreted what Maya said at the end of RoW. When Adolin asks her why they made this sacrifice she says "To save..." and then runs out of breath. Adolin assumes she was meant to say it was to save them from something worse, but I believe she was going name drop a person. The most obvoius candidate is BAM, but it could be someone else/ a group of people - perhaps the rest of the spren?

Building on this, another possibility is that Ishar and Nale were right about Radiants bringing back Desolations. Perhaps if the Radiants had not abandoned their oaths their Connection to BAM would have created a backdoor for the Fused to leave Braize and come to Roshar (they are Connected to her through Odium, and she to Roshar). By breaking their oaths the Radiants may have wounded Roshar and even Honor, but they could also have prevented the Fused from Connecting to Roshar through BAM.

Ishar may have advised on this course of action in the first place, and it would explain why they maintained it over the millennia...it could even be why the Skybreakers were the safest order to remain as they seem the most cold/emotionless of the orders (and thus maybe least Connected to Odium). All spren have traditionally been some mix of Cultivation and Honor.

 The Everstorm may be proof that Ishar was right, as Rayse implies to Dalinar that it is not of his making (or at least in his direct control). We know it starts in the east, somewhere beyond Shinovar, which is also a good candidate for where BAM is being held.

I think the way in which they are similar is in how the deadeyes/seons are affected. In Elantris, the earthquake cuts off the seons Connection to Devotion, essentially making them deadeyes.

On Roshar, we know that Odium became part of the system (one of the tones), which we now know Connected all of Roshar to BAM (including the spren). Prior to the imprisonment, the breaking of a Radiant bond would presumably return a spren to the Cognitive, but with BAM being trapped in the Physical the spren are instead trapped ( as she is their only valid Connection). Look at this quote from Kalak's epigraphs about what happened when Jezrien was trapped (the Heralds are essentially spren Connected to Honor):

"The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms." - Kalak (Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War).

On 12/29/2020 at 0:04 PM, adouloumis said:

This is amazing. It opens so many ways to think about.

So let me see. If the Heralds die when they are with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms aka no bodies and no Oathpact/ties to Honors. And Jezrien is completely gone.

The spren, that too are cognitive entities, when the oaths get broken they do not die (as they retain some personality according to Maya's example). So it could mean that they lose Connection with Honor to the Spiritual instead, perhaps forming with Odium/BAM. And they have on the Physical in the form of the shardblades, right? Or that does not count because they have no mental presence there?

 

Yeah so I think what's happening with the deadeyes is comparable to what was wrong with:

I think this is why adding gemstones to Shardblades partially revived them (remember BAM is trapped in a gem) - as it allowed some partial Connection.

I also think we as an audience/Adolin misinterpreted what Maya said at the end of RoW. When Adolin asks her why they made this sacrifice she says "To save..." and then runs out of breath. Adolin assumes she was meant to say it was to save them from something worse, but I believe she was going name drop a person. The most obvoius candidate is BAM, but it could be someone else/ a group of people - perhaps the rest of the spren?

There's a WOB that says that naming (Child/Son of Tanavast) for Kaladin is significant...I also can't see how though.