KandraAllomancer

@Frustration and @mathiau: the discussion has gotten to the point where I don't have time to answer all your points (at least no on a weekday), so let me at least provide some clarification on what I meant:

I think that the existence of a Light gives Shards and/or spren the ability to make some magic system or powers out of it. For example, both KR and fabrial spren are H+C but

A. Modern, KR Surgebinding has started with the Honorblades and is powered by Stormlight - it has grown from Honor's pure Investiture, so to speak

B. Oathgate spren were somehow created/altered by the Sibling (they call them parent), a process most likely powered by Towerlight. Probably as a result, they are resistant to Stormlight suppression - Oathgates were the only fabrials still functioning during Urithiru's occupation, despite being usually powered by Stormlight

As for the Fused, after re-thinking this I need to admit that their Surges are likely the corruption of Honor's powers. I still believe, however, that they might have been corrupted before they got them. Singers have some inherent magical skills - Stoneshaping (tied to Cultivation's tone) and changing forms (tied to Honor's tone, which Eshonai hears when she adopts warform for the first time). I think that the thunderclasts' ability to inhabit stone and the Fused ability to inhabit Singer bodies are corruptions of these respective skills.

When it comes to the Unmade and Voidbinding, I wonder about the questions we could ask Brandon during the next spoiler stream to clarify the issue. For now I have come up with these:

• If Raboniel successfully corrupted the Sibling, could Odium theoretically create an eleventh Unmade, for example out of the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, or Cusicesh?
• The Voidbinding chart is very similar to the Surgebinding chart in its structure. Are all the powers shown on it purely from Odium?
• Seeing the future seems to have a very special place amongst Odium's magic - all the Unmade have some capacity for it, it's described as the heart of Voidbinding etc. Is it one of the ten abilities with Surge-like glyphs shown on the Voidbinding chart, or something more fundamental?

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Khriss knows about Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Fabrials and the Old Magic, but she says that there is something else. And Khriss knows more about the cosmere than anyone Hoid included, so if she says there is something else, something that would fit into the same chart as Surgebinding and Voidbinding, we should listen.

Brandon has clearly stated that fabrials are a part of the third system. Don't get me wrong, I would love Cultivation to have full 10 powers, but as far as I cane tell from current evidence, these esoteric abilities will be fabrial related somehow. We've already seen a suppression fabrial related to some unknown sapient spren, for example

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Khriss calls it surgebinding, specifically a use of Cohesion.

Khriss is taking about Radiant Surges in Ars Arcanum, while the Urithiru Stone shows Venli something far earlier. It doesn't need to be Surgebinding, as it seems to be based on Rhythms rather than spren

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That document could be from centuries in the future for all we know. And the Unmade not exhibiting two powers is only a problem if they are Voidbinders, rather than it's source.

Possibly, yes. But we still haven't seen any example, historical or modern, of an Unmade granting (in whatever way) any powers whose structure is similar to KR Surgebinding, save for Sja-anat which creates H+O spren

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Becoming a CS is just by an infusion of investiture, not the corruption of the soul, it is Surgebinding, not Voidbinding, so it's not Odium's natural magic. Why would we not assume that it's Honor's magic corrupted?

Infusion with Voidlight and using Transformation is how corruption can take place, as shown by Raboniel with the Sibling. Normal CS can't just take over bodies, you need some additional powers like (Cosmere spoilers):

It seems possible that something was added to the Fused's souls in the process, making it a corruption in my opinion. Possessing a body with its own spiritweb, Cognitive aspects etc. can potentially be a corruption as well, who knows. If Honor's magic was corrupted, what was corrupted exactly?

Not a progress bar enhancement per se, but there's apparently some big news about Brandon's future plans coming tomorrow on his YouTube channel

8 minutes ago, TheCollector said:

The same thing could be done with Lights 

I absolutely agree, but I don't see it as a problem. As you've pointed out, metals already work like that.

Also, I assume that each Light would add just one or a few powers, and only create 10 power magic systems when combined with Honor.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The Old Magic is not one of them.

Once again, semantics. We have 3 major systems (Surgebinding, Voidbinding and fabrials) and then some more minor magic from Cultivation

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Yes there is.

Two WoBs from my previous post literally say that the third set of 10 powers is fabrials. All evidence we have (Rosharan spren generally being H+C, Navani's description of the H+C Rhythm, the Sibling's involvement in fabrial creation) points to it being of Honor and Cultivation, not just Cultivation

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It was surgebinding on Ashyn when they used diseases, it was surgebinding when the Dawnsingers molded stone before the nahel bond had even beem discovred. It's not the spren that are bound, but the surges themselves. Taken to it's logical extension, it's not spren that are bound for Voidbinding, but the "Voids".

Dawnsinger Stoneshaping is compared to a Surge, but as far as I remember never called Surgebinding.

Ashyn's magic wasn't about the diseases before the cataclysm:

They had some form of Surgebinding:

We know from Syl's interlude that Surges were bound by Bondsmiths somehow then. Some kind of binding definitely took place.

Also, even disease magic uses some kind of spren bond, although indirectly:

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It doesn't need to be 1-1, all of the uUmade can give slight amounts of future sight, which is clearly one of the "voids" but the isn't any of them that connect to more than two "Orders".

We still don't have any explanation about why would people create a chart (an in-world document) showing ten powers / "Orders" for nine Unmade. And none of the Unmade seems to exhibit two powers, and none powers seem to be shared amongst two Unmade

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Spren don't have to be involved, it's possible they were, the initail betrayal, but that does not have to be the case. And Mathiau gave the evidence with it.

Red eyes only imply corrupted Investiture, which could be the effect of how the Fused were turned into CSs, how they possess Singers etc. Nine brands and effects different from KR Surgebinding seem to indicate that this is a magic from Braize, which hasn't been Invested by Honor

13 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I fail to see what it could mean for a magic system to be based on a light and not a Shard, a light is literally the power of a Shard put in fluid form.

I didn't say that, technically - only that (for reasons I don't claim to understand) magic systems seem to correspond to Lights, and that their classification can be based on that

15 minutes ago, mathiau said:

The Fused are not mimicking the Surgebinding, they are using Honour's Surgebinding while using Odium's power as a fuel. Which is why they get red eyes

I don't think we have any evidence of that. We know that the Fused didn't have Surges from the start, but learnt them somehow. Could that have included Honor or some H+C spren? I have no idea. Some powers, especially Transportation and Progression, seem very different from KR Surgebinding

16 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Probably because there once were ten Made and Odium only managed to corrupt nine of them.

I mean, it's quite suspicious that there's an Unmade corresponding to each order except the only one connected to the only Truespren that have any chance to have existed before the Shattering.

We don't really know what the used to be, and if they all were on the same level of power before. BAM, for example, seems way more fundamental for Roshar than Nergaoul. We also have no idea if there weren't more spren like that - some huge spren might've supported Aimia's massive fabrial infrastructure, for example.

20 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Extraordinary claims require inordinate evidences

How is that an extraordinary claim?

We know from WoBs and Ars Arcanum that they will be 3/30 magic systems (3 sets of 10 powers):

Quote

Quantumplation (paraphrased)

I haven't read Way of Kings yet, but I've read Warbreaker and Mistborn, and the thing I like most about them is the Magic systems.  Will Way of Kings have multiple magic systems?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Depending on how you count it, Stormlight Archive will have 3 or 30 different magic systems.

Footnote: Part of me wants to say he said "3, 10, or 30 different magic systems", but I can't remember for sure.
Towers of Midnight Cambridge signing (Nov. 7, 2010)

We know that these would be Surgebinding (originally H+C), fabrials (also H+C as far as I can tell), and Voidbinding:

Quote

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

There's no place for 10 powers purely from Cultivation

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Part of why I asked is that light doesn't work with that.

Whether we cal it one or ten magic systems is just semantics, so I don't see how it affect anything

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Roshar itself is ten centric, while Braize is nine,

Of three magic systems on Roshar that don't involve Odium (Surgebinding, fabrials and Old Magic), only the ones including Honor have ten powers though

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Why do you think Spren need to bond for Voidbinding to occur?

It literally has "binding" in its name, so some kind of bond seems very likely.

Also, we see ten "Orders" for only nine Unmade, so some other Voidspren seem like a rational explanation

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

So if Odium had a magic on Roshar it would probably be ten. And as Voidbinding usually arises from the Unamde it's of Roshar.

We still have only nine Unmade. The tenth Unmade is theoretically possible, but I also don't see anything prohibiting Odium from creating even more e.g. eleventh Unmade created from Cusicesh

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

And why only future sight has been used before, the rest of Voidbinding has yet to be fully explored, much like Cultivations.

Cultivation won't have ten powers, as far as I can reasonably tell. Futuresight seems to more than just one of the abilities, as all of the Unmade are theoretically capable of it. So we have nine Unmade, each with futuresight and one other power - I don't see how people could create a Voidbinding chart out of that 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Also on clasifying magic system by light, Brandon has said depending on how you count there can be 3 to 30 magic systems

Brandon has made it clear that he sometimes considers individual KR orders separate magic systems:

Quote

Crspu

Is there going to be a magic system for every Shard? 

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, yes, whether there'll be books? We get into a problem here... is... what is a magic system, right? 

So for instance like, would you count all of Surgebinding as one magic system, or is it ten magic systems, right? Is Windrunning a separate magic system from Skybreaking. Right, and is it the Surges? Is it that? What do you call a magic system? Is the system of fabrials a magic system, or is it a subset of what's happening on Roshar? And in that case, it's like I delineated it pretty strongly in Mistborn, but in Stormlight, it's like... kind of Surgebinding is kind of Honor and Cultivation, right? And so is there a magic system for each of them or not?

So the answer is yes and no, in that every one of the Shards will inspire really interesting magic systems. But is there a one to one? What do you call a magic system? And beyond that, will I have time to write books about all of these, I don't know. You could even look at Sel. Sel has how many magic systems, is it one? Is it lots? Is Forging a different magic system from AonDor, or is it two aspects of the same magic system and so... It's tricky. 

YouTube Livestream 32 (June 3, 2021)

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

What makes you say Voidbinding is Odium + Honor?

Well, part of Voidbinding, really. I see two reasons:

A. Stormlight Ars Arcanum has clearly been written soon after Arc 1 (it mentions anti-Investiture as a recent development) and Khriss seems to be convinced that they are three and only three sets of 10 abilities. Given that 10 is a number associated with Honor, the only explanation I can see is that there's one magic system per Honor's Light, making Voidbinding associated with Warlight to at least some extent

B. Structure of Vodibinding chart doesn't make sense. Why would Odium's magic be 10-centric? Why would it follow the structure of KR Orders if Surgebinding of the Fused doesn't? Also, if Voidbinding is entirely of Odium only, there should be 10 kinds of Voidspren that people could bond. Where are they? The Heralds warned people of the dangers of Voidbinding, but they mentioned futuresight only, entirely explained by the influence of the Unmade. In Oathbringer, Turash is surprised that humans can even bond Voidspren - something apparently never witnessed by a Fused before

I’ve been thinking about the classification of Rosharan magic and its weirdness for quite some time and I believe I’ve finally come up with something useful. I think that all magic systems on Roshar could be understood using three simple rules:

1.We have a magic system (or at least a set of abilities) for each Light, which is typically used as the primary source of power for the magic

2. Full magic systems (i.e. having 10 powers) are only possible for Lights including Honor's Investiture

3. The classification is murky because of several reasons:

• the Light doesn’t need to match the magic’s Shards fully (e.g. original Surgebinding is of H+C, despite using primarily Stormlight)
• Shards and spren can copy the abilities of other magic systems (e.g. the Fused or Yelig-nar and Surgebinding)
• in certain situations the powers of one magic system can be fueled using different Lights (e.g. Venli using Voidlight to Surgebind)

Surgebinding - Stormlight

Not much to add here, Surgebinding (at least the original one) uses Stormlight primarily. The abilities of the Fused mimic it using Odium’s power.

Old Magic and ancient Stoneshaping - Lifelight

The Old Magic is of Cultivation, but there’s more to her magic and Lift’s abilities are apparently a hint:
 

Quote

PrinceDusty

At the Pixel Project event, you talked about a further extent of Cultivation's magic than just the boon and bane? Are there any people alive at the end of Oathbringer who are influenced by that magic?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Lift. Well, I guess that's a boon, isn't it? Yes, there are. But nobody on screen that has Cultivation magic, other than boons or curses from the Nightwatcher. Yes, there is such a thing, no, there's no one else on screen. But what Lift does is a hint.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

We also know from Venli’s chapters in RoW that the Dawnsingers used to have Stoneshaping abilities that didn’t require Nahel bond and were related to Cultivation’s pure Tone and certain Rhythm or Rhythms. Dawncities, cymatic patterns and maybe even what happened to the Shattered Plains are possibly related to this. Thunderclasts seem to be Odium’s corruption of these powers.

Voidbinding – Voidlight (futuresight) and Warlight (ten Voidbindings)

Voidbinding is extremely mysterious, but I think it could be understood by assuming that it is actually two magic systems: one purely of Odium (core, proper Voidbinding a.k.a. futuresight), the other of both Odium and Honor (ten Surge-like Voidbindings).

Voidbinding is described a cousin of Old Magic and apparently its heart is trying to predict the future. Also, per Taravangian’s word, we know that all of the Unmade (primary source of Voidbinding) have futuresight abilities to some extent. This seems to indicate that seeing the future is not just one of the powers, but the core of the magic itself. The Voidbinding chart possibly hints at that by showing the center two “Orders” not connected to any powers.

On the other hand, the Voidbinding chart also shows ten Surge-like abilities, organized just like in KR Surgebinding, which looks to me like a strong signal that Honor might be involved as well. Additionally, we know from RoW that corrupted Mistspren are of both Honor and Odium. I believe that Renarin’s Progression and Illumination abilities might actually be Voidbindings, different from baseline Surges by providing an access to the Spiritual Realm.

The whole situation actually has a very nice parallel with the state of Allomancy after the recent atium retcon (Mistborn spoilers):

One obvious problem is that Renarin is the first person bonded to a corrupted Mistspren:

Quote

Wyndlerunner

So Renarin is not a normal Truthwatcher, whether you want to call him Corrupted or Enlightened. Is he the first Truthwatcher of this kind to have existed?

Brandon Sanderson

What an excellent question. Yes he is.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

If that is the case, how is it possible that Voidbinding has been studied in the past enough to create the chart with ten abilities? I can see three possibilities:

A. The chart has been predicted using futuresight

B. Sja-anat has corrupted spren of other Orders before

C. Voidbindigs have been observed before without any influence from Sja-anat, for example in Knights Radiant affected by some other Unmade

Fabrials – Towerlight

Navani describes the combined Rhythm of Honor and Cultivation as the Rhythm of science itself, so it makes sense that fabrials would be the magic associated with Towerlight.

A recent WoB sheds some light on the history of Surge fabrial development:
 

Quote

kvancleeff21

What was the fabrial used by Nale to completely revive Szeth at the end of Words of Radiance? That seems like an immensely powerful fabrial, and I don’t think it has been mentioned since.

Brandon Sanderson

During the last days of the heights of the Knights Radiant, they were figuring out how to replicate most Radiant abilities with fabrials. This is where... the Oathgates as a guide for that sort of thing. So you're just seeing a fabrial that can replicate what an Edgedancer does, or a Truthwatcher. There were fabrials created that could do this for all ten Surges. Okay, nine of the ten Surges. Bondsmithing is its own weird thing, as usual. So yes, it's a very valuable fabrial to have, and that is why you haven't seen much more of it because it is in the hands of the Skybreakers, and we aren't spending a lot of time with the Skybreakers. But yeah, it is a thing they have. And there are fabrials that can replicate the other eight as well. You've seen several of them in the books already.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

It seems that portable Surge fabrials (at the very least Progression fabrial from Dalinar’s vision and “universal” Soulcasters capable of any transformation) are a relatively late addition, essentially the KR co-opting fabrials to replicate their own powers. That gives us a lot of space to search for the esoteric abilities that Khriss mentions in Ars Arcanum. What could they be? I can see three interesting clues:

Oathgates: they apparently predate other Surge fabrials and have been the inspiration for them. They have two spren and two powers: transporting to Shadesmar and to other Oathgates. The former is clearly a Surge, but could the latter be a separate power, possibly (Aether of Night spoilers)

Aimia: Aimia used to have some impressive fabrial infrastructure and has been long associated with Soulcasters. Could these be Soulcasters capable of only one transformation? Do they have some additional secrets? I wonder what would happened if such Soulcaster was used with Towerlight – I hope Navani does such experiment in the next book

Suppression fabrials: the corrupted suppression fabrial Lezian uses must have been an H+C spren once, right? It seems to indicate that the Sibling’s power protecting Urithiru can be replicated and given to people

55 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Those look really cool  I remember seeing that artwork on the forum not that long ago - do you know if there are plans to do similar dust jackets for other Cosmere book like Mistborn?

Yeah, you can vote for Mistborn Era 1 in the poll on their website and submit suggestions about other Cosmere books

I've just learnt from Elliot Brooks' Youtube channel about this new set of SA dust jackets created by Kraken Book: https://krakenbook.com/

They apparently have the official blessing from Dragonsteel team, but, weirdly, the project doesn't seem to be advertised in any way. The dust jackets are compatible with Tor hardcovers, you can also get matching bookmarks and vote for their next project - Mistoborn Era 1 is on the list

Here is my proposition:

Change: change, grow, adapt etc.

Cultivation, Ruin, Invention, Whimsy

Bind: everything should be bound by rules / obligations. The Dawnshard mentioned in the Poem of Ista, obviously

Honor, Dominion, Devotion. Possibly Survival Shard / Wisdom, depending on the exact intent

Live: create and protect sentient life. The Dawnshard Hoid used to hold

Preservation, Endowment, Mercy. Possibly Survival Shard / Wisdom, depending on the exact intent

Fight / Be free (?): have free will, assert and protect one's freedom etc.

Odium, Autonomy, Ambition, Valor

19 hours ago, ShardlessVessel said:

I haven't formalized it into a "theory", but my personal conjecture is that the Dawnshards represent the fundamental Spiritual aspects of the Cosmere. Connection, Identity, Fortune and... Intent? I'm not sure about the fourth.

Based on Feruchemy, the fourth would just be Investiture. I spent a lot of time thinking considering this, but I see some significant evidence against it: Passion (whatever it is) seems to be strongly associated with futuresight / Fortune, and it doesn't seem to correlate well with any known or predicted Dawnshard. Some additional divisions (like external vs internal, borrowing from Allomantic terminology) might be a solution, but I'm not sure if we have enough data to figure it out just yet

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Oh! You think Odium might've repurposed her to create the Everstorm! That seems very possible. Odium does not like to create Splinters of himself, preferring to adapt existing spren to his purposes, so it would make sense for him to do this. Although... the Everstorm was an attempt to circumvent the Oathpact, the Unmade, as Odium's strongest servants be the last ones to be able to reach Roshar (assuming they were on Braize, which we know is definitely not always the case). If Chemoarish was already on Roshar, that might've been enough of a Connection for him to manipulate? Interesting idea

If I remember correctly, the Everstorm used to be a part of the barrier storm of Braize, so I'm not sure if any additional splintering was necessary in the first place.

Anyway, my point was mostly about @Lightspine's theory that the Heralds and Unmade are somehow connected. Heralds breaking the Oathpact would, as a result, explain why the Unmade were not imprisoned on Braize before the True Desolation (Hessi, for example, seems to be convinced that BAM could be imprisoned in Damnation). In that is the case, Chemoarish was probably still bound to Braize - and smuggling her to Roshar might've helped start the current Return without Taln breaking

8 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

And your observation is very interesting, because we dont see Dustmother anywhere else (if it is true). Im still convinced to @Lightspine theory about Heralds and Unmade, but this still can match, because it was probably after Taln was released from Braize (im not fully convinced he broke, I think Odium find a way around Oathpact, but this is another story).

Taln definitely did not break:

Quote

Questioner

Taln. Did he actually ever give up? Or was it... Did he just get released when...?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out, but Taln did not break. You'll find out how it happened, but Taln did not break.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

Come to think of it, Chemoarish might have been brought to Roshar by the Everstorm, possibly foreshadowed by this Death Rattle:

Quote

They named it the Final Desolation, but they lied. Our gods lied. Oh, how they lied. The Everstorm comes. I hear its whispers, see its stormwall, know its heart.

It could have been part of Odium's plan to find a loophole in the Oathpact. Anyway, whether or not there's a spren for the Everstorm is a RAFO for now:

Quote

coltonx9

Is there a spren for the Everstorm?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. Good question.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

This theory started as yet another attempt to match the Unmade and KR Orders (using new information from RoW, the KR Quiz etc.), but after revising my last attempt I realized that I actually completely agree with the classification created by @Bzhydack in this post:

This has lead me to some interesting theories about Chemoarish and Yelig-Nar (which I believe match Stonewards and Skybreakers, respectively). In this post I'll focus just on Chemoarish. We don't really have much information on her: she's apparently often conflated with the Nightwatcher (probably implying some connection to Cultivation) and she's called a Dustmother. The latter might be a link to Dustbringers, but Nergaoul seems to match them quite well (direct inversion of their Ideal, captured in a ruby etc.). I believe, however, that Chemoarish makes sense if we treat her as an Unmade of Stone, which, as we know from Venli's chapters in RoW, also seems to be connected to Cultivation somehow. This leads me to this fragment we find in Dalinar's last vision in TWoK (chapter 75):

Quote

The land was trembling. The wall of dust was being caused by something. Something approaching.
The ground was falling away.
Dalinar gasped. The very rocks ahead were shattering, breaking apart, becoming dust.

I think what is described here might actually be Chemoarish

Taln not breaking has just been confirmed!

Quote

Questioner

Taln. Did he actually ever give up? Or was it... Did he just get released when...?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out, but Taln did not break. You'll find out how it happened, but Taln did not break.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

Odium: Metallica - Sad but True

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Whart justifies the assumption that either of them has a spine?

Lack of an exoskeleton combined with flexibility of movement (e.g skyeel catching a rat here or lurgs being able to jump). I'm not an expert on biomechanics, but it seems rather hard to achieve this without a well developed internal skeleton similar to the one found in vertebrates

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

So has a barnacle. The question is whether they are appendages or true tentacles.

Fair point

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

How else do they store Stormlight? To be frank we don't know any native lifeform that is sure not to have a gemheart.

We don't really know how native lifeforms use Investiture, really. That's pure conjecture for now, but they could theoretically produce it from food, like Lift does

The way I see it, there are two major native animal phyla on Roshar:

A. "Vertebrates" - fish and amphibians (lurgs). Because of the presence of Highstorms they probably never fully colonized the land

B. "Crustaceans" - pretty much everything else, including axehounds, chulls and greatshells. Santhids are related:

Quote

Questioner

Is there a relationship between the santhids and the chasmfiends?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhh… Yes.

Questioner

Besides them existing in the same place?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, direct relationship? No, but in the family trees there is, y’know.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

and have tendrils, so I would include the tentaculous group here as well.

As for singers, I would place them in the latter group. Real-life crustaceans might have either haemocyanin or haemoglobin in their hemolymph, so blood color is hardly a deciding factor. Given that the whole ecosystem was designed by Adonalsium rather than left to evolve naturally, we might not see any proper evolutionary links between shelled animals and singers, but the presence of gemhearts might indicate a relationship (I don't think skyeels need gemhearts to bond luckspren, but I can be wrong)

5 hours ago, Infinitysliver said:

I can't comment on the rest but for the Glys part,I think youre reading too much into it. I specially remember the sorrow part,and interpreted it as just a manner of speech,even him in the future tense. I don't have the book with me right now but yea

That is obviously possible, but Tumi seems to share his fondness for future tense, and Dreaming-though-Awake doesn't. The simplest explanation I can find is that the Enlightening affects their perception of the world somehow

5 hours ago, Infinitysliver said:

Also,the protection against future sight might just be him been able to see into the future,so,just having that possibility is the constant protection

On the other hand, the protection from futuresight works on the same principle as electrum/atium:

Quote

Questioner

So the scene at the end of Oathbringer, when Odium is confronting Taravangian and he uses futuresight to expand upon the Diagram, we have this blacked out section with Renarin's name linked to it.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Is that because Renarin's abilities interfere with Odium's futuresight similar to how electrum interferes with atium?

Brandon Sanderson

Any time that someone else is seeing the future in the cosmere, it's going to have ripples against your ability. Like they are-- you can't-- It's the same sort of thing that if-- someone who has access to atium is going to mess up anyone else's futuresight in any way, because once you use that it's going to cause you to act differently, which then-- And remember futuresight is not very good in the cosmere anyway. But yeah, it's just gonna mess things up.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

and if you're out of either metal your protection is gone. It's not a perfect analogy, though, since atium allows you to see only seconds into future.

It's hard to tell how long-term visions interact with each other, but the best mechanism I can think of is (borrowing terminology from computer science) cache invalidation. Odium predicts the future, but each time Renarin has a vision, things change - but Odium can still make new predictions. That would prevent Odium from making truly long-term plans, but planning , let's say, a week ahead (I'm not sure how often the visions occur) would still be a possibility. Only a more or less constant access to futuresight offers true protection in this case

First of all, I cannot take full credit for this theory, as the basic idea of “inverted Nahel Bond” comes from this post by @Seloun

While re-reading Oathbringer I realized that it actually explains most, if not all, weird things and quotes about corrupted spren and Voidbinding, so I decided to write down all arguments in favor of it. The basic premise is that Voidbinding (at least the form shown in the Voidbinding chart) is an extension of Surgebinding and the Nahel Bond, caused by adding Odium's Investiture to the Radiant spren. As a result, a person gets two Surges from the bond, and the spren gets two matching Voidbindings, explaining the similarity between the two charts. This would make Voidbinding a magic system of all Rosharan Shards, with its name probably being a portmanteau of Odium/Void + Surgebinding

Here are all the hints I was able to find:

• The Surgebinding chart shares the color theme with the map of Roshar, as beings from the Physical Realm get the powers; the Voidbinding chart using the colors of the Shadesmar map hints at spren being the ones to get powers
• Odium's Tone is now a pure Tone of Roshar, and  Eshonai's last chapter in RoW implies that all Tones and Rhytms form a wonderful harmony. Spren getting powers and, by extension, a more equal footing with people, seems to be compatible with that way more than if Voidbinding was a separate thing purely of Odium. Also, spren now essentially share mortality with people, so getting powers would be a natural next step
• Voidbinding being the cousin of Old Magic makes a lot of sense now: people get Old Magic powers by being changed by the Nighwatcher, spren get powers by being changed by Sja-anat
• Corrupted Truthwatchers cannot control their visions, but their spren seem to have at least some level of control. Glys can record the visions to show to other people (possibly similar to how Lightweavers can capture Memories), and Tumi knows exactly what is going on during Rlain's first vision, even though Rlain is clearly surprised by the whole thing
• Glys having access to futuresight beyond what he shows Renarin would explain him talking in future tense and providing constant protection against Odium's futuresight
• Glys also wants to give his sorrow to Renarin, hinting at the reversal of typical roles in Voidbinding
• Tumi thanks Sja-anat for his eyes in her interlude in RoW, presumably referring to the futuresight

We know about corrupted Truthwatchers and futuresight, which is most probably the Voidbinding of Illumination, but what about Progression? I believe that there might be some hints in Oathbringer about that. The quotes below were sometimes interpreted as Renarin having a gemheart:

Quote

 Jasnah moved into the temple, gripping her Shardblade, stepping on slippered feet. The red spren rising from Renarin—like a snowflake made of crystal and light—seemed to sense her and panicked, disappearing into Renarin with a puff.

Quote

It will be … great … vast … wonderful! Glys said from within Renarin’s heart. It will be beautiful, Renarin! Look!

There's no way Renarin naturally has a gemheart, but what if Glys used his Voidish Progression to grow one in his body to have some place to hide? It wouldn't need to be big, as a cremling gemheart was enough for Tumi in RoW, and it would explain a lot, in my opinion

On 1.04.2021 at 3:53 AM, mathiau said:

Wait, Devotion is Gruul? The storming embodiment of Love is Gruul? not Boros?

Yeah, thinking about this made me reconsider a lot of things about Selish Shards. Come to think of it, we know very little about them. Almost all of which assume comes from the nature of seons/skaze (hardly reliable, it would be like trying to infer the nature of Honor from honorspren or highspren) or religions - and it is entirely possible that the concept of unity was influenced by something akin to the Iriali religion, and only later modified to fit the nature of the Shards. The only thing we can attribute purely to Devotion seems to be the voice in the Shardpool (presumably Aona's CS?), and she wants to take Raoden's pain, which makes me want to include Devotion in the red category

On 1.04.2021 at 3:53 AM, mathiau said:

The overlap between White and Green is mutual aid and so I don't think Devotion being Green rule her out from the being of the Binding Dawnshard

The other white Shards seen to represent concepts that are rather impersonal, though

On 1.04.2021 at 3:53 AM, mathiau said:

I guess Mercy could be Boros (white/red) so yes this works

I've been thinking about this, and I wonder if some common themes in Cosmere might correspond to compatible pairs of Dawnshards. Unity would be white/red (even Odium wants some form of unity after all, being the sole ruler of Cosmere) and Passion would be black/red

On 1.04.2021 at 3:53 AM, mathiau said:

What is Whimsy doing in the black quadrant? (or in the Destroy/Individuality quadrant for that matter) Whimsy will be blue/red or mono red not black

Depends of a definition of Whimsy, I guess - I can see Whimsy as anything except for white, really. I decided on black as Whimsy might be arbitrary, irresponsible an selfish, which stand in opposition to the values of the white Shards. Also, I was searching for pairs that would have problems with inaction due to opposing forces - and Dominion/Autonomy and Honor/Whimsy sound almost as bad as Preservation/Ruin in tat regard

On 1.04.2021 at 3:53 AM, mathiau said:

Yes Wisdom is would be blue, no they doesn't work as an aspect of Change

Demanding things to be better relies on knowing what is better and that's where I think Wisdom might fit in. I admit that it relies on a broad definition of the Change theme, though

This has been discussed before, but as far as I know it was never updated to include the new Shards from RoW.

The basic premise, obviously, is that the Dawnshards would correspond to the cards colors in Magic: The Gathering. The WoB below provides some crucial information here:

Quote

LordSkybreaker

Hey u/mistborn I have a couple questions about Magic: the gathering.

What colors/kind of deck do you play in magic?

What colors are the known shards?

What colors are the various orders of the knights Radiant?

And finally, have you ever thought of doing the story for Wizards Of The Coast on one of their mtg blocks?

Brandon Sanderson

Any combo-style deck I can draft--or esper if I'm constructed.

Ruin: Black. Odium: Red. Honor: White. Preservation: White. Cultivation: Green. Devotion: Green/red. Dominion: Black/White. Autonomy: It's complicated.

(Also, question 3 is way too large for me to commit to right now. And for 4, if the right opportunity came along and they were interested, I could see myself doing this.)

SoupOrMan692

What about Endowment and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson

Ambition is mono-black, and endowment is probably mono-green. Some of the blue shards are ones we haven't seen as much from yet.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

There are two major issues that need to be solved, though:

• There are 5 card colors and 4 Dawnshards. I believe that's not really a problem, as the Change Dawnshard covers two colors: green and blue
• Devotion and Dominion have two colors, quite possibly because Elantris was written before Cosmere fully took shape. I think, however, that, when other Shards are taken into consideration, they can be reasonably placed within red and white colors, respectively

All the colors description below were copied from here.

Also, as I've realized while writing this down, Dawnshards and Awakening work in a kind of similar way, and Awakening uses colors  

White Shards (Dawnshard of Order/Unity/Morality?)

White color description:

Shards: Honor, Preservation, Dominion, the 16th Unknown Shard

They seem exceptionally important for the Cosmere as a whole, as all core worlds (Roshar, Scadrial, Sel) have at least one Shard from this category.

This is possibly the Dawnshard from the Poem of Ista, as well as Hoid's Dawnshard, based on his old quasi-Stoneward oath and inability to hurt people. 

Black Shards (Dawnshard of Individuality/Destruction?)

Black color description:

Shards: Ambition, Ruin, Whimsy, Autonomy (the "main" Shard, Avatars can probably have different colors)

Red Shards (Dawnshard of Emotion?)

Red color description:

Shards: Odium, Devotion, Valor, Mercy

Green & blue Shards (Dawnshard of Change)

Green color description:

Blue color description:

Shards: Cultivation & Endowment (green), Invention and (non-canonical yet) Wisdom / Prudence (blue)

The Change Dawnshard seems to cover both natural growth and intentional human activity, making it compatible with both green and blue colors

41 minutes ago, mathiau said:

What?

Modern fabrials require only a lesser spren captured in a gemstone, which sounds like something possible even before H&C Invested on Roshar. It definitely fits the description of a minor Shardworld magic from this WoB:

Quote

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

8 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Some of this is... debatable. First, the Radiant spren predate the Ashyn crisis and the Fused: Syl tells us they are ten thousand years old (though them making the Radiant bond was a surprise, iirc). Second, it is by no means clear that the Ideals were added on after-the-fact.

I agree, but these weren't necessarily meant to be in chronological order. Despite creating the Radiant Spren, though, Honor did seem to have suppressed Surgebinding for a long time; the history is murky, yes, but I don't think Surgebinding existed fully in current form until after the creation of the Honorblades