KandraAllomancer

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

OK but the unmade have been loose on Roshar for millennia.  It would be equally possible for post recreance Honor to do this as a last act of defiance.

It's absolutely possible. But Honor, in his last moments, wasn't exactly very lucid and was raving about Dawnshards and the danger of using Surges. Cultivation, on the other hand, is much better at seeing the future and is known for using spiritweb modification to influence future events in he favor, as evidenced by what she did with Dalinar.

27 minutes ago, Karger said:

Interesting theory.  I don't really get the reasoning but.

My line of reasoning goes more or less like this:

• Odium corrupts (unmades) powerful spren to create the Unmade
• Cultivation is the only Shard to fight against Odium and live to tell the story
• She must have learned a lot about how Odium operates from that experience
• Now she uses that knowledge to wage a silent war against Odium - uncorrupting Sja-anat (modifying her spiritweb) is a vital part of it

@StanLemon

Exactly. Why would Odium's magic be symmetrical (it's specifically Vorin symbolism)? Why would it use glyphs (even if modified), which predate Odium's arrival and are associated with the Heralds and Knights Radiant? Why ten Surges, if Odium's number is nine? Why Bondsmiths, when there's no Unmade associated with them?

It's all nicely explained if we assume that the chart is an in-universe document - an attempt (not 100% correct) to understand Voidbinding using Surgebinding framework.

@Karger

For the record, I don't think she's fully uncorrupted. But she's gained more free will and her abilities changed, which I attribute to Cultivation's influence (it definitely fits her modus operandi). Sja-anat still mostly consists of Odium's Investiture and he can definitely compel her to obey in most situations.

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

She also seems to serve Odium at least until recently and he can compel actions of her.

Virtually he same can be said about Taravangian. I still believe he and Sja-anat are ultimately Cultivation's agents, even if they're not aware of it.

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And, in my opinion, singer forms (regal forms included) and the spren bonds of the fauna are just organic fabrials. The part of the system that Fabrial magic expanded upon in the first place.

It would explain why they don't technically count as full Voidbinding as well. But then again, what about the Fused? They're residing in the gemhearts too, if I remember correctly.

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think that the old magic does, or should, count as a magic system. Whether it's Cultivation or the Nightwatcher acting, it's the direct action of a single entity. That's not so much a magic system as it is a manipulation of general realmatics by an entity of such potent Investiture it operates on its own rules. 

This WoB specifically calls Old Magic a magic system. And there is probably more to it - we still don't know what Cultivatonlight does, for example.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I would say adhesion because we see them generating wind I would also call this the corrupted form.

I agree

1 hour ago, Karger said:

?  She calls Odium father no?

And Cultivation would be a stepmother in this analogy

One important addendum to the theory - this WoB is usually considered a proof that Stormform is not Voidbinding:

Quote

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them.  I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one.  And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

It relies, however, on word ambiguity. Take fabrials for example. All spren-based machines are called fabrials (general term), but there are only 30 magic systems on Roshar, so 10 of them must be Surge fabrials (like Soulcasters or Oathgates). The same principle applies to Voidbinding: it's both umbrella term for Odium's magic system and name of the nine corrupted Voidish Surges (Voidbindings). We haven't seen the latter until the end of Oathbringer, when Renarin is shown to use future sight.

10 Surge fabrials + 10 Surges + 9 Voidbindings + Big Spren Magic (Old Magic and possibly the Unmade) = 30 magic systems

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Lopen would like a word with you. 

I just took a quick look at Oathbringer chapter 121 (I assume this is what you're referring to) and I don't see Stormfather admitting any control over the Oaths (only the knowledge that Lopen wasn't ready before). Lopen's theories notwithstanding, I don't see how Stormfather would allow Syl's bond. Or Spark's. And what about Cultivation/Nightwatcher? And the Sibling?

9 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Well I think Dalinar will combine the two shards left and the remnants of Honor together to form Unity . He was Forged by Odium ( Thrill) Tempered by Cultivation ( Boon /curse ) and Bound by Honor ( Bondsmith . When he ascends it will be by Unifying the 3 . I know many Cultivation fans will get mad at me for saying it but I think that’s what will happen . Interesting theory though.

I don't disagree. I believe that Dalinar will be Unity's vessel and (at the end of Stormlight) the last Shard standing on Roshar. I think that Odium will end up splintered, with his Investiture stored safely on Braize, so that Unity/Dalinar can tap it whenever needed (like a planet-sized, Shardic equivalent of metalmind).

43 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is only one Ashspren.  Malata was specifically chosen by the diagram in an attempt to get at least one Radiant on their side.  Spensa from Skyward would also be a Dustbrginer and although she is amazingly aggressive she is nothing like either of them.

According to the Diagram, Dustbringers are the most likely order of Knights Radiant to accept the Diagram's cause, so this attitude would probably be shared by at least some other ashspren. I agree, though, that most of them wouldn't condone that behavior (and wouldn't bond with human anyway, after the Recreance).

Here is my take on Voidbinding. We know that Roshar is a very mathematical world (e.g. Julia set) and that spren are based on quantum mechanics. I assume here that, just like quantum field theory, Surgebinding and Voidbinding stem from basic principles:  fundamental forces (Surges),  symmetry and symmetry breaking.

General overview
I believe that Voidbinding is actually a fairly simple magic system based on 9 Surges and powered by Voidlight. It may, however, seem confusing because of several factors:
A. Humans and Singers bond with Voidspren in a different way
B. The Everstorm changed how Voidlight is obtained
C. Voidbinding chart (TWoK rear endsheet) is an in–universe document and is not 100% reliable
D. We actually see four different types of Voidbinders:

• Full Voidbinders – nine orders of the Fused, each with a full access to one Surge with two aspects: normal and corrupted
• Half–Voidbinders – the Regals, bonded to Voidspren, with access to one aspect of a Voidish Surge, normal or corrupted
• Half–Voidbinders, Half–Surgebinders – nine orders of Knight Radiants bonded to corrupted spren, with access to one Surgebinding Surge and a corrupted aspect of a Voidish Surge. Use Stormlight rather than Voidlight
• Humans (and probably Singers) bonded with the Unmade (effects vary depending on the Unmade)

Voidish Surges
Voidbinding is based on 9 Surges (Odium's number). Which Surge is missing? Progression. As described here, Voidlight does not provide the same healing abilities as Stormlight. What is more, each Voidish Surge has two aspects: normal, similar to their Surgebinding counterpart, and corrupted. For example, the Voidish Surge of  Illumination comes in two variants: one akin to Lightweaving (“Smokeform for hiding and slipping between men. A form of power, like human Surges.”) and future sight (“Nightform predicting what will be, The form of shadows, mind to forsee.”), which have separate Forms of Power.  Decayform seems to have access to a corrupted version of Division, able to destroy minds and break people (“Decayform destroys the souls of dreams.”), while Envoyform accesses Adhesion in a way similar to Bondsmiths (Spiritual Adhesion). I don't think we have enough information to tell exactly what kind of Surge Stormform uses (Transportation maybe, since they can summon the Everstorm from Braize). This version of Voidish Surges also works well on symbolical level: evil is sterile and can only imperfectly copy and twist what already exists (look at Re–Shephir or hemalurgy).
As for the Fused, we know that they only have access to one Surge, and we only see the normal aspect of it. It would be very strange however, if Voidish Illumination Fused would be denied future sight when literally every other type of Voidbinder/Voidspren (Regals, Enlightened spren and Unmade) can have this ability. It's hard to tell if all the Unmade abilities count as Surges, but I believe they provide a tenth level of Voidbinding described by Khriss.

Voidlight access
I believe that every Voidspren is a conduit to Odium and has their own, restricted pool of Voidlight. Regals bonded to basic Voidspren have access to some abilities (Venli's Sipitual Adhesion in Envoyform, shooting lightning by Stormform) that seem to work without external source of Investiture. To achieve something more, however, either greater numbers (summoning the Everstorm) or external Voidlight is needed. The latter used to be provided by the Unmade (that's why it was said that Voidbinding originated with them), but with the Everstorm situation changed and now Voidlight is much more accessible. The Fused have more internal Voidlight than basic Voidspren, but much of it is probably used to maintain their life (situation similar to the Returned on Nalthis). Odium threatens Turash with removing this internal source of Investiture during the Battle of Thaylen Field. As a result of their particular status, the Fused rely on external Voidlight more than any other Voidbinders.

Voidspren bond
For humans, bonding with any Voidspren relies on specific mindset and environment (e.g. competition/battle for Nergaoul, death for Moelach) and is, by its very nature, temporary. If that wasn't the case, Moash/Vyre would probably bonded with a Voidspren already instead of relying on Jezrien's Honorblade. Unmade, such as Nergaoul, affect people's minds and can facilitate bonding with lesser Voidspren (another argument why Voidbinding originates with them). Because Singers have gemhearts and Forms of Power affect their emotional state, the bond is permanent. Humans can imitate this by swallowing a gemstone, like Amaram did, but it's very destructive.

Corrupted spren
We know Sja-anat always had the ability to corrupt lesser spren, probably by modifying their spiritweb. Given her willingness to defect from Odium and lack of malice observed in Glys, I don't think her recent ability to corrupt true spren is of Odium. Sja-anat was probably uncorrupted by Cultivation as a source of new agents to fight Odium, particularly those who (like Renarin) can interfere with his future sight. It would explain why Stormlight is used in this case rather han Voidlight.
Each corrupted spren one Surgebinding Surge and a corrupted aspect of a Voidish Surge. Now, let's look at the Nahel bond table here. Truthwatchers have a corrupted version of Illumination (second Surge). Second Surge is also corrupted in the next four Knight Radiant orders. There are no corrupted Bondsmiths (you cannot corrupt a godspren), and then we go back to the beginning of the table – orders from Windrunners to Edgedancers have a corrupted first Surge. This way, nine KR orders can be mapped to nine orders of the Fused (by sharing the same corrupted Surge). Nine orders of the Fused can be then mapped (with some fuzziness) to the nine Unmade – that's why there's no Unmade corresponding to Bondsmiths, even though the left out Surge is Progression (which both Truthwatchers and Edgedances have in uncorrupted form). Also, we have 5 KR orders with a corrupted second Surge and 4 K orders with a corrupted first surge – and this kind of broken anti-symmetry would be considered unholy by Vorin standards. The Voidbinding chart (TWoK rear endsheet) seems to be an in–universe attempt to understand Voidbinding (an essentially asymmetrical magic system) in symmetrical, Vorin terms (a reason why modified glyphs are used) – that's why both Bondsmiths and corrupted version of Progression are present there, even though they shouldn't be.

55 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

The Stormfather very notably said "I accept these words."

Could you point me to the source of this? I recall Stormfather saying "These Words … are accepted" but in this case he only accepted Dalinar's Third Ideal.

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Neither of them are either personally brave or loyal.

That might have mattered more during the Heraldic Epochs (though, as Nohadon claims in TWoK, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren). After the Recreance, ashpsren want two things in the Physical Realm: break things and exact vengeance on humans. Aerys and Cersei provide both in spades. 

2 hours ago, Invocation said:

That's possible. My theory probably would have been that it was perceived to be impossible, and that made it so.

I agree. It doesn't help that Singers are naturally able to bond spren with their gemhearts in a way that's not a Nahel bond (it gives them forms, but doesn't grant sapience to spren). Combine this with the fact that (according to Eila Stele) they were forbidden from experimenting with Surges (by Tanavast probably) and it's hardly a surprise that they didn't discover Nahel bond until it was too late. Then Desolations happened and spren turned away from them.

32 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

IIRC, Tanavast used to be the one who accepted Oaths to form Nahel bonds. It could be that Tanavast wouldn't allow the Radiant Spren to bond the Singers, but the Stormfather will. 

I think that decision is up to each spren. Stormfather definitely wouldn't allow Syl to bond with a human.

I don't think you can create a shardblade on Scadrial (particularly given lack of Harmony splinters), but you can create a hilt containing a powerful unsealed metalmind and some harmonium inside to give the blade Leecher ability. Works equally well

Bondsmiths: Jon Snow, Bran Stark (though he's closer to Nightwatcher really), Aegon VI Targaryen (book version)

I think that Daenerys is closer to Nale - she has access to supercharged Gravity and Division (dragons), a legion of Skybreaker followers (the Unsullied) and can create laws to support her insane/cruel behaviour 

Jaime Lannister (book version) seems like a Windrunner squire on his way to become a Windrunner, due to Brienne's influence

Dustbringers: Mad King and Cersei. Both share their fascination with fire

Lady Stoneheart is a Skybreaker on a mission to punish those that broke the sacred laws of hospitality

High Sparrow is an Edgedancer gone really dark

Thanks for the feedback!

21 hours ago, Karger said:

Odium is irritated and steals a dawnshard to make the Unmade.

This would also explain the differences in Unmade's intelligence. The three great Mindless Unmade (Nergaoul, Moelach, Ashertmarn) seem to be made mostly of corrupted lesser spren (gloryspren, deathspren and hungerspren probably). True spren are responsible for higher level of intelligence. Ba-Ado-Mishram would probably have a very clever voidpsren (or maybe even some Fused if chronology allowed for it) thrown in the mix.

Favourite books: The Final Empire, The Bands of Mourning, The Emperor's Soul, Shadows for Silence and (treating a Stormlight book as a trilogy) final part of Oathbringer

Favourite characters (one per series/era/novella): Dalinar, Hrathen, Shai, TenSoon, Steris, Vivenna, Bavadin

I have several Stormlight theories I'd like to share - I posted one yesterday, at least two more are coming up in the next days.

Based on my personality, it would probably be Autonomy

Hello! I've been a Cosmere fan for some time and after reading all the published works (and large parts of the Arcanum) I decided to join in.