Oudeis

I am once again being unclear; that is what I meant. To expand on my previous example: He looks at the mug, and physically he sees the Batman mug. He knows that this is what everyone else around him sees. However, he is aware that if it weren't Forged, it would be a Superman mug. What I meant by my similes is that the source of the knowledge is esoteric; he doesn't "see" the mug as being a Superman mug, he doesn't hear someone chanting "superman" in his ear. To his feeling of perception, the knowledge simply arises, like a memory, only he can't recall where he learned it. In his specific case, he is aware that this sensation means "I learned it from bronze" and he eventually gets comfortable with the feeling, but it would have been odd the first times it happened. Another thing to keep in mind: With iron, ironsight is a side-effect; Inquisitors still retain the power to pull on metal sources. Just so with this case; I'd imagine advanced bronzedar is a sensation he feels whenever he burns bronze, but he can still direct it towards specific effects as any other Seeker could. Taking the iron analogy a bit further... in the time of The Final Empire, or even Alloy of Law, people assume that bronze is only ever on or off. When you start burning iron, all that happens is you see the blue lines. It becomes obvious what to DO with those lines (possibly because there's only one thing to do) so people rapidly figured out what else can be done while burning iron. I think bronze is similar. You burn it, and you hear bronzepulses, just like iron lets you see ironlines. No skaa allomancer is ever safe unless he's hidden in a coppercloud so there'd be almost no reason for a skaa Misting (or Mistborn) to risk practicing with a metal everyone things is useless, and anyone Noble or in a Ministry is under the control of The Lord Ruler. Bronze is used to find the Well. It might be useful to locate bindpoints. Mr. Sanderson has said that bronze can be used to sense feruchemy, and Rashek does not want anyone to learn that he's a feruchemist. This is still all rampant speculation, I have nothing concrete to base my conclusions on, but more and more I'm starting to think I will be unsurprised if it turns out both bronze and copper are far, far more interesting than anyone realizes.

Can you rephrase the first sentence? I don't think I understand what you're saying. Re: bindpoints: Interesting. I had not thought of that. I don't think I agree that it would have been discovered. In Classic Scadrial, allomancy was all but unknown. Since then, Rashek has been in charge. We know he spent a thousand years suppressing the very existence of aluminum as an allomantic metal, or electrum, which would be far more common, and he is deliberately keeping people in the dark about hemalurgy. It's a stretch, but not a huge one, to suggest that he might have discouraged investigation into bronze, and he'd've had motive if it could be used to aid hemalurgy. Even Marsh tells Vin that most other allomancers dismiss bronze. Thank you. Yes, my phrasing was meant to highlight the precedent set by iron, I did not imagine it would be literal sight. My friend suggested that perhaps bronzedar would be more Cognitive or Spiritual than Physical. My example would be something like this: Let's say a Forger turned a Superman mug into a Batman mug. My Bronzeborn guy would look at it, and physically see a Batman mug, but he'd have a sense of awareness of it and know it was a Superman mug, or at least that it had been Forged. It would be a sensation like when someone says a few random words in a conversation that makes you think of a song, or when you can recall a bit of trivia but have no idea when or how you first learned it.

For the movie, I don't think we need to specifically "show" each metal the way it seems is being proposed here. If Vin is burning pewter, you don't have to write "pewter" on the screen. You can show an 85-pound scrawny person grab a cart, brace, and throw it fifty feet. That's the visual effect. When The Lord Ruler enters the square and Soothes everyone, you show a crowd of people murmuring and jostling, maybe even a few shouts, and as he appears the crowd falls silent, heads bow, and everyone turns to face him. Iron and steel, if it's PoV you show the blue lines, and if it's not PoV you just show metal flying around the room. For bronze, if it's PoV, I guess here's the most blatant one. You could just have people narrate (Vin closes her eyes, then opens them, pointing. "Someone is burning tin over there, guys!) or you show a PoV, Vin staring at someone, and thrum some rythmic bass in the speakers. Copper, prolly don't bother.

Does a Shard know when someone hops onto their world? Is it like a bullet, a foreign object thrust violently into your zone of awareness? Or is it like a germ, you don't realize you picked it up when it shook that guy's hand, you are only aware of it when it starts to make a ruckus?

I had a wild thought and I'm going to throw it out there. First, let me clarify that this is rampant speculation, so if anyone disagrees with me I'm not going to reply, as I have nothing to base this on besides flights of fancy. Kelsier was a Mistborn, but he specialized in steel and iron, paired metals. Vin learned from him, and those were her best, too (apart from her hemalurgic boost to bronze). Spook started as a tineye and got pewter. When he did, he made much of their pairing, how they were connected. I rampantly speculate that when he was made the Lord Mistborn, he continued to specialize in those two metals. Shan Elariel, from what tiny scraps we know of her, seemed to specialized in emotional allomancy (and there's a character over at the Inquisition who is also a "griftborn"). It's gotten me thinking that perhaps Mistborn do tend to pick one pair of metals and specialize in them. What, then, would a copper/bronze Mistborn be like? The idea intrigues me, and I've been thinking about it for a bit. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken, but the general sense I've gotten is that both of those metals are the ones with the widest cross-shardworld application. If so, the character would be most interesting as a worldhopper, or possibly someone transplanted to another world, or at the very least someone who deals with a lot of worldhoppers. And here's where we turn the speculation up to 11. Imagine the sort of things a cosmere-aware mistborn could do if he were amazing with copper and bronze. Finding Breath, maybe even Breath stored in a shirt. Knowing when someone is Lightweaving, perhaps even seeing through it. We know Inquisitors see with Ironsight, sensing the shape of objects that have only the most trace amount of metal in them. What if you could develop Bronzesight? What if this guy, when burning bronze, not only saw Sylphrena a la Rock, but could actually see her bond with Kaladin? If Shardplate has a cracked gemstone, parts of the armor will be weaker. Maybe he could see which bits will fail first. Perhaps he could see the true shape of a Forged object. Sylphrena offered to end her Nahel bond with Kaladin, so we know it can end. She also said that flying far away to get the leaf for him would make her lose herself, so presumably the bond can be weakened at times by distance without damaging the underlying bond. What if copper could throw up some interference? Obviously not sever the bond, but what if he could make it feel for a few moments that Sylphrena was too far away to maintain the full power of the bond? In mid-battle, a few seconds of Kaladin being a much weaker Windrunner would be all you'd need. Or blanking out an Awakener's lifesense, or at least disguising himself from it. Shielding himself from effects of AonDor, the way some Dakhor monks can. I am so going to fanfiction this guy. Can anyone suggest a name to me? One final thought: If Hoid did swallow the bead of Lerasium (which I don't think he did), he'd really be the perfect person to use copper and bronze this way. EDIT: Linking to a summation of a few additional thoughts over on this thread.

I agree that with an electron tunneling microscope, you would never find any difference between Scadrian iron, Nalthian iron, or for that matter iron as found on good old Earth. I still do think that there's something Invested about Scadrian iron (if anything I personally believe it's Spiritual, but it could well be Cognitive) that makes it allomantically active, whereas iron from Sel would not be. I'd also imagine that a worldhopper who planned to use his powers extensively would bring several bars of metal with him when he traveled. Presumably they're bringing things like clothes, personal effects, maybe that Alethi takeaway they can't live without. Several bars of metal represent quite a long time of burning.

First, I cannot find the quote right now, but I think there is WoB that Alendi was a natural Seeker with at least one hemalurgic spike granting him additional allomantic bronze. The explanation is that Ruin was able to introduce some hemalurgy into the world, to increase the number of people he could influence. It also was his way of finding someone who could find the Well and hopefully be tricked into releasing him. If so, this means at least some hemalurgy might potentially be available to the Southern people. Second, I don't know if anyone has ever asked Mr. Sanderson this, but I believe the metal of Scadrial is specific metal. I think if a Lurcher were sent to Nalthis, found some pure iron, shaved off some and ate it, he would not be able to ironpull. Similarly, I think hemalurgy requires metal to be from Scadrial in order to be capable of charging a spike. I have no evidence to support my claim, but we do know that Shards must "attach" themselves to the world in order to Invest it, and I think the metal of the planet were the original anchors for Ruin and Preservation. I could be wrong, but I also think an emerald from Nalthis would not hold stormlight (and might be quite the novelty on Roshar, actually...) EDIT: Because I completely failed to finish my first point.

First, let me go on record saying that I think we should not be using Trueselfs as an example, since entire threads have spent a lot of time running in circles trying to decide what feruchemical aluminum does. We're trying to build a castle on shifting sand here. That said, just to try untangling one knot I think I see... I believe that when Isomere discussed "an aluminum Ferring's soul creating energy" he wasn't talking about specifically aluminum Ferrings; your previous contention appeared to be that there was an "energy of the soul" being stored that everyone creates. I believe Iso was saying, okay let's assume that f-aluminum really does store soul energy; if it does, that's a separate process from the feruchemy. Everyone's body generates heat, everyone's body has weight, everyone's body turns food into caloric energy. So, too, does every soul on the planet generate "soul energy" (if that's actually a thing). If so, and if it is end-positive, that is separate from the feruchemy, since literally everyone on the planet who does not have feruchemy also does that thing. Aluminum feruchemy would simply mean temporarily storing that power, and is not "end-positive" because it is a process entirely independent of the generation of that power, just like storing caloric energy is entirely independent of the process of eating. Which again, is not what I think aluminum feruchemy does. I also do not agree that souls generate power on their own; if they do have some mystical 'power' which i don't think they do, it would come from the same place the energy for Ironpulls or copperclouds come from. Mr. Sanderson seems very interested in energy, where it comes from and how it is created, and it doesn't seem his style (I haven't seen any other examples that aren't the Power of Creation) to have something independently create energy just because. As Iso said, Occam. Let's break Awakening down. Energy is absolutely used in Awakening. A rope flinging boulders uses up energy. Your contention seems to be the following: Breaths themselves are souls, and souls generate their own power which has nothing to do with the Power of Creation that fuels allomancy. This power is spontaneously generated with no fuel. I do not accept your premise, and I have not seen you present any evidence supporting your claim. Please note that this is my main point. If you can explain this one fact, if you can show me some reason to accept that every soul on Nalthis, if not the Cosmere, generates power spontaneously out of nothing in a way unlikely anything Mr. Sanderson has shown us except for the very Power of Creation itself, I will consider your idea that Awakening is end-neutral. If you cannot, I clearly have no power to control what you choose to believe, but there will be absolutely no evidence to support your claim. In additional, your claim if true would basically make all end-positive Investiture end-neutral. We know allomancy is end-positive; why then wouldn't it just run on this soul engine? If the power of a soul can raise a person to a Heightening and animate a scarf to throttle a man, why can't it push a coin away from your chest? Why can't it sense bronzepulses? EDIT: To clarify a minor point.

Eh... while I accept your point that demi-Kandra are certainly not a confirmed possibility, I think you'd being too sure that they aren't at all possible. Remember, Mistwraiths were once human. We have no idea what Rashek did to them to turn them into what they are, but there's no reason to assume they for sure have no genetic compatibility with other humans. Further, we can't know what Sazed did to change them the second time. I fully agree that it is speculation, (and let me take this moment to re-affirm that I also don't think Wayne is kandra-blooded) and I don't even know if I personally think demi-kandra are possible, I just don't think we can rule them out. I don't even think they're all that implausible. They are modified humans (we don't even know if their DNA was changed, with the raw power of Creation there are several other possibilities) who have the power to assume human form, up to and including functional internal organs. It's entirely possible they can craft reproductive organs that would work fine, and be able to pass on genetic code similar enough to human to create viable off-spring. Just because they look very different doesn't mean their DNA has to be that different, and with Investiture it technically doesn't mean their DNA has to be different at all. EDIT: Final thought: In short, if Mr. Sanderson does introduce demi-Kandra at some point, I would accept that as plausible. For now, however, I don't believe it's the case.

So it seems that you're saying is this: What Brandon said was probably, "you cannot personally Seek and Smoke at the same time," but that simply being in someone else's cloud won't prevent you, personally, from Seeking (though anyone near you will, of course, be Smoked). Additionally, you seem to be saying that you believe a Smoker could, if he knew how and were very good, "Smother" a Seeker in his cloud, preventing the Seeker from Seeking, period. Is my interpretation correct? Additionally, I suppose Soothing stations have to be set up fairly specifically... the Smoker rather far back, the Soothers and Seeker right at the edge of his cloud, so the Smoker isn't accidentally hiding any Skaa Allomancers.

Since spiking a feruchemist lets you use metalminds that person stored in, then presumably a feruchemical spike would, in fact, have the "Identity" of the feruchemist it killed.

No no, she even expressly says that she's burning copper for the sole reason that she wants immunity to Soothing. And then it's a fascinating example of exactly what he's talking about when he gets her to carry his chair and she's stunned for a second, knowing she's immune to his allomancy and still feeling like doing it for him and ARGH HER BRAIN SHUTS DOWN and I really don't think people are in awe of Breeze as much as they should be... What I meant was, Mr. Sanderson does not expressly say why she turned off her copper. It was just, "She turned off copper and burned bronze." She turned off copper, so he wouldn't be in her coppercloud? She turned off copper, because she knew you cannot Seek if you yourself are being Smoked? From the W's-o-B we've got, it seems like either or both could have been meant, and anyone can say "well I believe this to be true so I think it's what was meant" but there's literally nothing there, so no one can prove "he meant this, not that".

It's also prohibitively difficult to Awaken metal of any kind in the first place.

It is going to be very hard to reply to you, Kurk, because I look at all the things you say and they all seem to support my statements, yet you claim to disagree. You're skipping half of feruchemy. When a feruchemist uses up an attribute, yes it is gone. But it was put there in the first place by him. Weight, sight, heat, these are things which can be measured, and they are measured equally going in versus coming out. You can talk about "the energy of a Breath" but unless someone has a WoB I've never seen, we have no way to calculate what that is. You can guess and theorize and say what seems "likely", but we can't know what that is, which is a large part of what makes it unclear whether he's end-positive, -neutral, or -negative. We can calculate the amount of energy it would take to disintegrate a wall, but not only do we have no way to get an accurate estimate of how many Breaths he consumed while doing so, we also have no earthly way to calculate the energy of each Breath in any earth-type unit. Even if that were the case, which it might be, why are you dismissing it? End-neutrality doesn't care what purpose energy goes towards, it just cares that it was used. But then when you're done, you get the Breaths back, all of them, exactly how you left them. The God King's Breaths have been around for three hundred years, and none of them seem terribly tired or rundown. Feruchemy is end-neutral because you can become weak to store up strength, and when you use up exactly that amount of strength (and yes I know if you multiply it there's some diminishing returns but that's not what we're talking about right now). The Breaths are only the energy source if they get used up. They don't; like the steel of allomancy, they are simply a catalyst that grants you the Investiture from the Spiritual Realm. Energy is gained, thus end-positive. Breaths providing power from the Spiritual Realm is the literal definition of end-positivity. A feruchemist provides his own power by... well okay it varies. You provide strength by burning caloric energy. Your eyesight is... okay not really technically using energy... okay this is getting messy but the point is, the power comes from your physical body, the physical realm. It can be measured in ways that make sense and are not infinite. The Spiritual Realm is a world made out of power. It does whatever AonDor tells it to. It can be channeled by brass to enflame the emotions of those around you. In the shape of a Shardblade it slices through stone without effort. When the Breaths you hold raise you to Heightenings and provide you with benefits, those are being powered from the Spiritual Realm, too. If you had to provide the power yourself, Susebron would have to eat butter literally every minute of the day to keep ahead of how much energy those Breaths required of him. End-positivity means that Investiture is giving you more power than you started with. I'm really going to have to ask you to be more specific about "people's souls in the Cosmere provide energy" if you aren't saying that it's direct infusion of power from the Spiritual Realm, because that it what end-positive means. Just because literally everyone on Nalthis has a tiny touch of Endowment, just because it's the norm there, doesn't mean it isn't end-positivity. It just means that in a technical sense, every non-Drab on Nalthis is participating in a very, very little bit of end-positive Investiture. Yes, yes, everything about this.

I don't agree with this idea, but I don't think genetics is a reason he can't. A Kandrablood would have four grandparents. If one were a Keeper, one were a Misting, another were a Kandra, and the last one was Bob over there, he'd have the legacy from two grandparents required to be Twinborn, and the legacy from a different side of the family to have a slightly malleable body. Ew on so many levels and I don't personally think it's what happened, but I don't think it's impossible due to Kandra ancestry making you incapable of feruchemy or allomancy.

Prolly a little too "real world" but, for Brass/Bronze, "Heatseeker" EDIT (to add a thought): I notice you X out all of the allomantic Aluminum/Duralumin possibilities, presumably since they are no different from the Ferring without the useless-on-its-own power. I recommend that you remove those X's for the two Compounders, since even if a Trueself with allomantic aluminum has no useful advantage (that people in Alloy of Law times would know of) over a mere Trueself ferring, the ability to Compound Identity might well be quite interesting. May I suggest the name... Truest-self?

I'm re-reading chapter 10 right now of The Final Empire which is the scene of Breeze teaching Vin how to use emotional allomancy, and Vin specifically turned off her own copper so she could try Seeking Breeze (it didn't work because she realized a moment later they had another Smoker in the room). Maybe she was doing it because her own coppercloud would cover him, or maybe she just knew she couldn't burn bronze if she was also burning copper. In case you're wondering, she wasn't doing it to actually feel the impact from him, because a few paragraphs later she does exactly that for that reason. It is a bit odd, there's really no specific reason given the first time, just "she turned off her copper and started burning bronze." EDIT: because I forgot to write a clause that makes this make sense.

My question here is where you say "apart from the initial color". ... Why apart from that? It's something that's lost. I think that matters. However, I actually think that it makes BioChroma end-positive. The color, like the steel of a Coinshot, gets used up in the process. In the case of Awakening, you get a rope which can fling boulders. In the case of a Coinshot, you get a force which can fling a person away from a gate. In both cases, the thing lost could not possibly provide (by the laws of physics) enough energy to produce the effect, particularly in the case of Awakening where the object can remain animated forever if nothing interrupts it. (Hrm, someone should show that. A family heirloom or national artifact which is an object that was Awakened seven hundred years ago and is still "gripping" whatever it had been told to). BioChroma invests a Breath that typically you get back and loses color, and provides you with far more power than makes any manner of sense. In addition, in he case of a Lifeless you don't get back the Breath, and as @MadRand pointed out Nightblood consumes Breaths. None of these strike me as end-neutral. Something is always lost in BioChroma, yes. But you get back far more than you put in. I think BioChroma clearly must draw power from Endowment, likely from the Spiritual Realm, and is thus end-positive.

Hrm... we know allomancy is end-positive, it receives power directly from Preservation. We know hemalurgy is end-negative, and that power is lost when it is used. Either of those cases could account for why any given power either generates or takes in heat. Do we know of any form of Investiture besides feruchemy that is confirmed as end-neutral? I feel like those would be the only ones where we can account for, "this is clearly the case," and not due to a discrepancy in other forms of energy. Apart from brass and its clearly unique instance, I don't think we've heard anywhere that feruchemy affects temperature, even for pewter or iron where mass or weight are gained or lost. In conclusion, I think it might be that temperature variance is a side-effect of specific increases/decreases in energy due to the nature of given powers, and is not a universally inherent thing. Thought obviously one example is hardly enough to go by.

When Szeth uses the lashings he gets so cold, frost forms on him.

In chapter 5 of The Final Empire, when Vin learns about the plan to take down the Lord Ruler, she says, "you could sooner stop the mists from flowing or the sun from rising." When you wrote that line, did you know you'd eventually have Vin do both of those specific things?

While I don't believe lerasium will 'heal' the "being spiked" of hemalurgy, I can actually see something of a case for it. In allomancy, lerasium re-writes your spiritweb. Normal hemalurgy rips bits off of your spiritweb. There's a connection, tenuous though it may be, that a lerasium spike could "reboot" your spiritweb, or at the very least take the ripped shreds of it and "stitch" them together. If you follow the analogy, normal hemalugy is like ripping off a person's arm and attaching that arm to someone else. In this theory of lerasium spikes, it might either give you a new arm, either the one you lost or a close simulation, or at the very least it might close off the wound, so instead of being a person with a gaping wound at your shoulder, you're an amputee. In keeping with the principles of hemalurgy, however, I think you'd still have to charge the spike by killing someone else with it. Perhaps lerasium takes the other person's spiritweb whole, instead of taking it to pieces. That's not to say that it then grants you multiple powers with a single spike, I just think that whatever effect it has requires an entire, complete spiritweb.

It's possible it was just meant for literary drama. A shocking color to appear out of nowhere associated with some random man. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Final Empire, Chapter five. Vin has learned what the Crew is planning. (I will edit this to make it a 'quote' when I get to a computer) A bit on the nose, as Vin eventually does both of those things. Albeit after they overthrow the Empire. EDIT: To make the change I said I was gonna make, and turn my caps into bold.

Total reach here, flagrant attempt on my part to hope that it isn't what it looks like... maybe they meant that you pick up the metal with your hands? The way Vin would manually move a coin until it was directly between herself and a target, and then fire it? So you have to hit a switch, or something, so you actually pick up a lantern, orient until you're facing the switch, and then push?