Oudeis

Hey, can anyone give me a current total on how many unique steelhunt codes have been unlocked to date?

Everything skaa just said. I would be surprised if there weren't a way to augment allomantech with hemalurgear, but I don't see it being a requirement.

While there might be a difference between "evil" and "necessary evil", both are still evil.

@ Meg: Yeah, what Satsu said. I know the quote is from MAG which itself is non-canon, but the book is peppered with quotes from Mr. Sanderson himself, and that's one of them. I would never cite something like their numbers on how fast steelpushes can be, but a quote from Mr. Sanderson is a quote from Mr. Sanderson, wherever it happens to appear. If your brother murders your neighbor in order to steal his pie, and you know this, is it wrong for you to eat the pie? After all, he doesn't need the pie anymore. The legal term for that is "accessory after the fact", and it is both legally and morally wrong. Even in war, even when we kill people, there are things we've promised not to do, because they are too heinous. In the United States, the death penalty is meant as a deterrent; don't commit crimes or this could be you. Why then do we give lethal injections? Why don't we stake someone out in the town square and let him die of thirst over the course of days? Why don't we cut off another knuckle each day? There are some things that are simply wrong, and the ends do not justify the means. And if you knew that you weren't just keeping grandpa around, that you were ripping his soul in half? That his last moments in the world would be filled with excruciating agony? You seem to be someone who feels a soul is eternal. You'd damnation him to a literal eternity of never being whole again? Your mirror idea was sweet and your intent was noble, and I wish for your sake it had worked. But that is nothing like hemalurgy. Hemalurgy is not some bird-cage for the soul. Hemalurgy would be if you had ripped off your grandfather's arm so you'd have something to remember him by. Yes, people would do that. But there would always be dissidents. You can save a population, but there is no way you could hurt those twelve families worse. And the Final Empire was broken. It was literally held together by nothing more than the might of a man who had been God. There were revolts within his first decades of rule. Society crumbled within hours of his death. That's not real stability, that's divine intervention. If you spiked someone with tin and stole their sight, and she somehow survived... yes, there'd be the visible wound. There'd be the actual, physical wound from the spike and there would be the obvious, measurable malady of her blindness. But I put to you that those are nothing. Many people live normal lives whether born blind or blinded in life. People have physical scars, even disabling ones, and get along fine. Those are not the injuries I am talking about. Read about depression. Read about post-traumatic stress. Read about any of the other wounds people have that cannot be seen, that cannot be shown at parties. A common thread is a feeling of alone-ness. We, in our enlightened society with charity drives and psychology and evolved empathy, five decades ago refused to accept that a soldier could suffer from trauma; when forced to acknowledge it we called it "shell shock" and decided their brains had been damaged by being too close to an explosion. Even now, you seem to be missing my point. I talk to you about having your very soul torn into pieces, and your rejoinder is to talk about atrophied muscles. Try to think about what I'm actually talking about. Even if we don't know yet what losing part of your spiritweb feels like to a person, try to imagine living in the wild west with a deep psychological trauma, and knowing that there's not one person you know who believes you. The worst ones keep trying to make you better, keep trying to force you to just "get over it" and then being angry at you, blaming you for not trying, when it fails. Atrophied muscles will be the absolute least of your concerns.

If hemalurgy were simply the end of a life, you'd have a point, in that lives end. I think that you're missing a point of hemalurgy. It rips souls apart. It isn't good to have your soul ripped apart, and it isn't good to have someone else's soul patchworked onto your own. I think you're right, if it were simply a matter of "someone dies, and my Rioting gets passed down like the good china," then it would not be evil. I think Mr. Sanderson says it's evil for a very different reason that people are largely ignoring. I hesitate to suggest I know why people do things, but it feels very much like "I can't really visualize what ripping my soul apart means so I'm going to assume it's not that big a deal". I could pick up a kitchen knife and start slicing up my arm. It wouldn't hurt anyone else. In the long term it likely wouldn't cause any lasting physical damage to myself. It's my arm, and my choice, right? It's still a very, very bad idea. There was a moral debate I had in college about cloning. If a child dies, would it be wrong of the parents to clone him? Hit reset with the child? It's easy to say, we won't treat him like the same one over again. It's easy to say, we won't get frustrated when he doesn't turn out exactly like the last one. Why won't you eat your peas? The first you never gave me this much trouble with his vegetables. It sounds easy, and it's easy to hand-wave and say, no, none of those things would be a problem. In real life, I don't believe anyone is so perfectly functional they'd be able to pull that off. Is perfection theoretically possible? Yes, it always is. Will it ever, even once, work out perfectly? No. In real life, it never does. I love my grandmother, and I miss her everyday, and if I could spend another day with her I would. Does that mean I wish I could have ripped her soul to pieces as she passed so I could graft it only my own? No. Not even if she said she was okay with it. If she said she was okay with it, I would assume it meant she didn't really understand the process she was talking about. I'm only talking about the system of magic. If hemalurgy is widely accepted in society, then yes, the society is depraved and evil. I don't see that as sustainable. I realize Mr. Sanderson has never shied away from having evil, tyrannical societies, but he's already made hemalurgy evil. Why would he invent an entirely new branch of magic, and have it be as verboten as one he's already got? I could see this new mechanical form of allomancy being something that could be augmented with hemalurgy, but I don't expect to see it being dependent. And they are pushed underground and punished severely when found. They are incredibly minor in society, because as grubby and ignoble as the average person is, as willing as they are to pick up a wallet off the ground or cut in line for a cab, a society has to be truly evil before they will accept true evil as commonplace. The Lord Ruler was as in-control of his society as is basically possible to be short of a literal hive-mind, and even he kept hemalurgy to closed doors and boogeymen. The Koloss and Inquisitors were demons shown to be apart from mortal men, and no one even knew what the spikes were for, or that Koloss even had them. I guess we're not promised that mechanical allomancy is open and allowed in the south, but it being a cabal of a few obviously evil people (like the Mysteries) is the only way it can involve hemalurgy. And this is the attitude I see on all the fora. The quote from Mr. Sanderson only said that 'stabbing someone with metal and ripping out their soul is not, technically, always fatal', and people have run with that to decide it clearly means it's the literal equivalent of just giving blood. Hemalurgy rips your soul apart. End of story. If you survive by some miracle, you will not be the same, and you might not be glad you did. Accepting a spike turns your own spiritweb into a frankenstein's monster. It is not harmless, it is not child-friendly, and WoB, it. Is. Evil. Not very long ago, victims of post-traumatic stress were told to just suck it up. If a wound wasn't visible, it was considered not to exist. I hope that at some point Brandon shows a character feeling, experiencing their own spiritweb so it stops being this abstract concept that does nothing but grant you magic powers like a fancy lego block tacked onto a lego car. Even better, I hope he does show a survivor of hemalurgy. Show them not just losing a power (or eyesight or intelligence, whichever spike was used), show them suffering a wound that no one treats, that no one can see, that no one really believes exists. I want him to show us the hell such a life would be. And then you are all free to tell me how hemalurgy is harmless. We know that being a Drab is a much bigger deal than Hallandrens believe, and Breaths were meant to be given away. Try to imagine being a Drab because someone ripped your very soul apart.

People discuss hemalurgy a lot on these fora as a viable option. I don't think Mr. Sanderson thinks it is so. The following quote is from the MAG but before you get up in arms, this isn't part of the game mechanics, this is a quote from Mr. Sanderson himself that was included in the book. You can find it on the second page of the hemalurgy section of the Treastise Metallurgic. He then goes on about using "found spikes" and whether or not it is justifiable. The point is, hemalurgy is a bad thing. I feel like I've seen a lot of people who heard Mr. Sanderson say that you don't technically by definition need to kill someone for hemalurgy to work, and are assuming that means oh good, carte blanche, let's just hemalurgy the hell out of everyone. If mechanical allomancy requires hemalurgy, then it is evil. If that's the basis for the southern tribe's magic, then their magic is evil. As far as I'm concerned, end of story.

How do we know that mistwraiths breed?

The Kandra did not breed true. Mistwraiths had to be granted hemalurgic spikes in order to gain sentience. Being functionally immortal, they are theoretically sustainable without requiring constant spiking. Eventually, however, something will happen and they will die. So, either Sazed restored a bunch of them and they're allowed to live until they die, or he's modified Mistwraiths as he did Koloss to make them a sentient being capable of breeding on their own. I wonder what a crossbreed of human and Kandra would look like or, for that matter, Koloss and Kandra. We all assume the Faceless Immortals that spread the word of Pathism are Kandra, yes?

Whoever "Jaddeth" really is, would he actually rise if everyone on Sel worshipped him?

First, upvote to you for being a rational, intelligent and polite debate partner. Talking with you is a pleasure and an education. Second, I can see why you'd say that. "Raw Investiture" is clearly energy, what Mr. Sanderson has called the Power of Creation, and so it seems like what you experience when you're in the presence of stormlight might be raw investiture itself. I propose, however, an alternate theory. Atium is, from a molecular standpoint, simply metal, nothing special about it, wrapped up in a lot of spiritual power. I think stormlight is just simple light, at its smallest level nothing more interesting than photons traveling in either waves or lines at the speed of eponymy, yet wrapped in the power of the spiritual realm. Is it possible that bonding spiritual...ness to energy makes you somehow 'closer' to raw investiture than to mass? I suppose. Making things uneven is something Mr. Sanderson would do, and the "magic" of Roshar does seem vastly stronger than it does on other worlds, so you have a case. I'm going to choose to remain skeptical, but there are many things in the cosmere I choose to believe that I can't prove more than "likely", so you will get no judgement from me. One thing that, and I don't have any quotes at hand, but I'm sure I've heard Mr. Sanderson imply often enough, that actually bothers me a little. The spiritual realm seems so... boring. The physical realm is where, for better or worse, most people are stuck. It is the stage for whatever happens, it is the place where you can be stabbed to death. The cognitive realm is awesome, it lets you worldhop and it's where walls wish to be beautiful, and it seems to be where all the really interesting, intricate laws of magic come from. The Spiritual Realm is... just power. Nothing but an endless supply of clean energy. Boring. I mean sure, your spiritweb seems to have some effect on how you manifest this power. But for the most part, my impression of that place is that it's simply the Dor, an endless well of raw power constantly trying to force its way into our world, willing to perform whatever task humans set it to if it means the ability to expend itself. I sorta hope we learn at some point that it's more interesting than that.

I think you may be missing my point. I agree, Brandon said, "stormlight is investiture" and so it is. What I'm saying is, I don't think you can say that all fingers are thumbs just because all thumbs are fingers. Yes, stormlight is investiture. Does that mean that Investiture can only mean "things of the spiritual realm"? Maybe on Scadrial, steel is investiture, and it's certainly got a strong physical aspect. Maybe a Dakhor bone on Sel is investiture. What about a memory in a coppermind? It surely is investiture, but it's a memory, there's a strong case to be made that it must have a big cognitive component.

I was thinking more in terms of ironsight from Scadrial. They establish at some point that Vin sees the lines, even the ones behind her, even with her eyes closed, and obviously there are inquisitors. That might make a bad-chull warrior, someone who is blind and sees via spren...

Animals feel fear; they are sometimes aware that some situations may cause their death and will try to avoid those situations. A robot would either be programmed to hurt him, and we saw from the Rube Goldberg way he died that what matters is the person who starts the chain of events, or it would have to have free will. I have personally never bought the idea that a robot can have free will but no emotions. If a robot can't want Steelheart to be harmed, it won't choose to do so. Want means desire, desire is an emotion. If it can feel, it can fear. However complicated, convoluted and logical the chain of reasoning you can build to explain why a robot would harm Steelheart, it will always boil down to the following: There is one scenario where Steelheart lives, and another where he dies. I prefer one over the other. Preference means liking, liking is an emotion.

Oh. Wow. I definitely misread that. Sorry! I still do wonder, since Rock can see Syl even when she doesn't reveal herself, are there those who just can never see spren ever.

The Nightwatcher's curses are all neurological in nature. Would she be able to curse someone with sprenblindness? i.e., Rock the Horneater can see Sylphrena even when she's not specifically revealing herself to him. Someone who is sprenblind would never be able to see any sort of spren, regardless of whether they reveal themselves to him or her.

I actually disagree. For the first part, I simply think the phrase "Investiture" is broader than you think, and can mean more than you think it does. But I could easily be wrong on that point. As for the last part, I'm almost positive that the mist is one aspect of his physical body. I'm sure Kelsier said something similar when Vin was taking in the mist. I feel like a lot of people see "three states of matter" and "three realms" and just assume that each state has to correlate to one realm. Honestly, I think anything that IS clearly physical means "physical realm". Mist can be touched. I do realize it has a few peculiarities, because it IS influenced by Preservation's spiritual aspect, but it itself is physical. The mist, the Well, and the lerasium, all aspect of his body, like blood, bone and muscle. For contrast, take Syl. She has no weight and cannot be felt. She follows the wind if she feels like it. It's all she can do to carry a single leaf, and "binding" to things is even in her wheelhouse. She chooses (largely) who can and cannot see her. She clearly barely exists in the physical realm, and we've got WoB that spren are cognitive aspects. I think the mist is too obviously physical to be a spiritual aspect.

I still say Rashek. We know that when he took on the power of Preservation, he gained knowledge of allomancy (the metals he wrote of on the walls of the caches). Can anyone recall how he learned how to make Koloss, Inquisitors and Kandra? Did he just get that from holding Preservation, or did Ruin whisper the secrets to him? Since there obviously is a way to access the metallic arts mechanically, I do not think it is a large stretch to assume that he knew of this, as well. I think he set up a cadmium machine on the southern continent to ensure as little time passed as possible for the people down there. I think the people down there could have studied this machine, which was likely beyond their personal capabilities, but maybe they learned enough about it to craft knock-offs. That's how they know how to invest metal with mist; they've studied a machine that does just that.

I picked these two because they have circumstances that are somewhat unique. There may be other examples throughout the cosmere, but none that I've seen so far. Shardblades are unique in their world, because they seem to break the rule of their world. Literally every other form of Investiture we've seen requires Stormlight (apart from Shallan's Memories and The Thrill, neither of which we really know much about). Blades don't. We know that metals fuel allomancy, but unlike any other form of Investiture I can think of, we've seen it receive a power boost from the mists. Also, per the OP quote, Brandon has admitted there are similarities between highstorms and Scadrian mist. I understand that a Shardblade is naturally 'full' of Investiture, and I wasn't trying to suggest that I thought it could be done as simply as Navani would design a fabrial. I was thinking more along the lines of what happened to Vin. I don't have the quote handy, but WoB has said that she had more power pumped into her than she could hold, and it gave her temporary INSANE powers, and burned her through. I was thinking it might be something similar to that. Mayhaps one day we will see someone in a highstorm wield a Shardblade, and somehow infuse it, causing it to do something absolutely extraordinary with big consequences from channeling more juice than it could safely handle.

Not positive this is technically cosmere-wide enough to warrant being posted here, rather than in Stormlight Archives, but the Archives forum is turning radioactive with people posting Word of Radiance spoilers, so I'm going to be keeping my distance until the book comes out in May. So, follow my train of thought. It's not a terribly complicated question... On Scadrial, Vin can burn steel, no problem. However, when she burns the mist, she can steelpush like nobody's business. Now Roshar. Apart from The Thrill and Shallan's Memories, both of which I'm putting to the side right now, we've never seen any form of Investiture that doesn't need Stormlight except for Shardblades. Just today, I saw a new question Mr. Sanderson has apparently answered. So. The highstorms are something like mist. Shardblades seem to have inherent investiture, just like allomancy. So I wonder. What would happen if you could infuse a Shardblade? Is that possible? What would happen? edit: Because it was wordy so I got rid of some unneccesary stuff.

While you're at it, why not give them one additional spike to make them a Compounder with an extra kick? Like, an Allomantic pewter/Feruchemical gold twinborn, spike him with Feruchemical pewter, spike him with four spikes to make him Koloss, and watch him rip apart mountains?

?? Not sure I understand what you're saying here. One thing I think I do know, surely Vin's spike was intended for both purposes? Ruin wanted to influence her, true, but he also needed someone with strong enough bronze to hear the Well's thumps, which required a Mistborn or Seeker with an additional hemallurgic spike.

Hey, can this be moved to the Words of Radiance discussion page for those of us trying to avoid Words of Radiance spoilers? Or just labeled better as containing Words of Radiance spoilers, at least?

**Bated breath. Short for "abated". Literally, "I'm holding my breath". Where do we know this from, please? I have some thoughts: First and foremost, Chaos this was excellent work on your part. The base theory is simple and genius. You have connected concrete data in a genius way. Thank you for your effort and for giving me something to think about that is as rich as this idea is. In no particula order, since we are discussing Southern Scadrians, I have a (totally unsubstantiated) theory about them that might affect things. We know they have no genetic modifications that would allow them to survive anything like Ashworld or being kept underground, we know that they had protection from their half of the planet burning, we know they are a 'control group' and we know Rashek is a 'control freak', and we know of no method he could have used to keep tabs on his southern people. I've always just assumed it was some form of stasis. Rashek needs to ensure these people survive just in case the north doesn't, and he won't be there to save them. Why not just make sure no time passes for them? I had originally thought something along the lines of cryogenics, but now I have a different idea. See if you can follow this: The people down south somehow have access to tech that simulates the powers of allomancy. Rashek needed to keep them suspended in time. Rashek may well have known about the other metals. What if he set up a cadmium machine? If the 8:1 ratio supposed in chapter 12 of Alloy of Law is constant, 1024 years could pass in 128 subjective ones. Still a risk, but that is a far more survivable timeframe. (Also, who is to say the power of Preservation was bound by the same limits as a normal Pulser? If he could merely quadruple mortal power, it'd be 32 years.) So, the time passes. Maybe they even have access to the machine, and 128 years is not long enough for people to forget that the Voice of God spoke to them and told them this machine was all that kept them alive. Until the last few decades, there'd prolly still be people alive who heard it.? They study it, they learn from it, it is the blueprint for their allomancy technology. Aaaand... that's my idea. 128 years is short enough that it's believable that even without TLR's iron grip, the world would have changed little enough. Little enough opportunity for any sort of regime change or world-spanning revolution. Granted, crafting "mist-fabrials" to slow down time for that long, over that large an area, would be implausible for them to possess, but it's something Rashek could theoretically have set up while he was Preservation. Now, for feruchemy. We know there were full feruchemists in Pre-Empire days. I put to you that he would not have eliminated those feruchemists for the following reasons. First, as someone pointed out, they are literally a world away from the mistborn he fears them mixing with. Yes, theoretically they could cross thousands of miles of unsurvivably infernal planet in an attempt to reach the north and procreate, but it's as unlikely as the Terrispeople, bereft of any feruchemists, nevertheless bearing feruchemist children, and he took that risk, so clearly something kept him from total sociopathy (Preservation's influence?). Second, his entire point was a control group of unmodified people. Maybe one day he WOULD want unmodified feruchemist stock, and since his own body survived in Ashworld he presumably did modify his own body. So, I think the south would have feruchemy, and would not have mistwraiths. I have other thoughts but this is getting fairly long, so I shall save them for another time.

Fortuity. His name is Fortuity. Maybe he was secretly sexually attracted to Steelheart.

blessyouautocorrect?