Jorville

3 minutes ago, Robinski said:

Right, but it's not laid out what that core group is and that it only has 7 members by edict, or whatever. It's not defined, which is why I couldn't see specifically how he wasn't one of them.

Yeah, going over it again I see that. I made reference to their main antagonists but I forgot to really showcase them as their own group. lot of other good point that you went over here as well. Also I am still being lazy about sending my critiques on AK for you, I promise I will get to that soon .

21 hours ago, Robinski said:

I'm not 100% clear in the first paragraph whether these characters are the ones under siege, or doing the besieging. I think the word 'overrun' is probably the only hint that they are the ones under siege.

I see what you mean. Gonna take a look and change the wording see if I can make that more clear.

21 hours ago, Robinski said:

You say that that 'Mal' (typo in the first paragraph), will overrun them, but then say the Mal haven't shown themselves, so I'm confused who or what actually makes up the hordes. Also, is Val the god of two different things, Boldness and Heroism? Not really clear on that.

They are assuming who it is. they really don't know. I am being vague on purpose, but I will take a look and see what I can to give more description if you think its a good idea. So the gods each have a primary trait and two sub traits V is specifically the god of valiance, decisiveness, and heroism. Each god follows the same format. I didn't want to try to explain all that as I felt it would be too info dumpy.

21 hours ago, Robinski said:

We're three paragraphs in before I knew that there are any other parties there. Also, I know I'm going to forget their names.

Yeah I see you point, definitely should put that in the description sooner.

21 hours ago, Robinski said:

It sounds like the actual landmass appears: what actually appears is some kind of representation of the landmass, I presume?

Yes, I will try to make that more clear.

21 hours ago, Robinski said:

I don't really see how this other option works if the gods are besieged. I guess maybe I'm going to find out. Also, these other gods, with the possible exception of Val, seem like 'straw men', rather one dimensionally shallow, incapable of discussing or debating the issues at hand, but just rolling over to whatever is put to them. They seem very passive for gods.

So, breaking the siege isn't really F's point. She just wants to help humanity. She isn't suggesting a course of action to break the siege. Regarding the depth of the others, I understand what you are saying but I didn't want to make this too long and give them a lot of 'Air time' in order to give them some more depth.  you think that that is necessary?

21 hours ago, Robinski said:

The punctuation is off the mark in several places, mostly around the dialogue, I think. [e.g. “You are all too afraid to see.” The goddess said as she left the council room.] > [...afraid to see," the goddess said...]

Some of the phrasing is rather repetitive. The have been one or two examples of word repetition (in close proximity) which I always find jarring. This latest example made me wish to comment however, because it's very blatant. 'She' waves his hand to dismiss the image, then 'Ky' waves his hand dismissively. Sounds very awkward to me, stylistically.

There's pretty comprehensive lack of consistency in capitalising god/God of whatever/Whatever. Quite distracting.

[“And I am sure you will give this to us out of the kindness in your heart.” He said with no little sarcasm.] - Seems to me the tag here is redundant: you've already shown in the dialogue, no need to tell again in the tag.

All good points. I haven't really done a lot of looking over for those things. I will adjust that when I go through for other things. I will say I kept forgetting to not capitalize god in this situation. I had to go back and change that many times so its natural that I misses several.

21 hours ago, Robinski said:

The phrase 'top priority' is very modern and threw me out of the pseudo-ancient tone of the setting/set up.

'the Big Guy' feels like another anachronistic modern phrase. It leads to me struggling rather with the tone.

I will be honest here, I used 'top priority' because I couldn't think of another word to use. I did put it in there thinking I was going to change that when I found a better way to say that. As far as Ky's use of the phrase it is intentional. I am having trouble with the words to explain him right now but I have a more full spectrum view of him. I know that really doesn't address your issue but I think its appropriate.

21 hours ago, Robinski said:

Ooh, I have whiplash from how quickly 'She' accepts the dubious gift. His initial doubt and suspicion are good, but he just folds instantly when 'Ky' promises not to double-cross him. That seems unconvincing to me. I mean, he's called the GoM, for goodness sake. Would you take Loki's word for anything?

You have a good point. The truth is that he's desperate for a way out and the offering makes that easy due to its relative power.  When you're up against a wall and someone gives you a way out then its hard for you not to take it.

21 hours ago, Robinski said:

What? I'm confused. 'The Was'? I had to read that three times and I still don't get it. I'm willing to bet that every single reader who reads this will get stuck on that. Even disregarding the name, the grammar is awkward there; the bit about the box disappearing, but the stuff is still there (I think).

So its the baseline creation force of the universe. I'll try to clear up the awkward phrasing though. 

21 hours ago, Robinski said:

Confused about what 'Fall' is saying. So, does this mean she set the whole exchange up?

Yes, I read that again and agree that it sounds weird. going to see what I can do clear that up.

22 hours ago, Robinski said:

'Crunch' doesn't work. It sounds--suddenly and out of nowhere--like a transcript of a comic book. For one thing, if you're going to use it, I think you need to put it in brackets of some kind, but really it feels all wrong to me, completely out of place.

I am going for a jarring irreverent feel whenever Ky comes in. That's him taking the bite out of the apple I am not sure how to keep it short and sudden without doing something like that. Do you have a suggestion?

22 hours ago, Robinski said:

Why is 'Ky' not one of them? He's a god. I don't really follow the logic here.

So, isn't one of the 7 gods that make up group that we focus on here. However all the gods follow an aspect or ideal of humanity and Ky is part of that broader spectrum.

5 hours ago, kais said:

So as backstory goes, I think it's fine. I think you could easily integrate this into your main chapters, however, without losing anything. Right now its fairly cliche and needs something to make it really stand out. But as a draft goes it's got reasonable bones. I think edits will really shine it up.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I understand  that it may be cliché and honestly I am not that surprised. I think that when you deal with gods and such that it kind of lends itself that way.

5 hours ago, kais said:

- These first three paragraphs have a lot of generic stock movie phrases in them. This is reading a bit more like a D&D campaign right now than a novel. But first draft, so no worries. You can clean it up later.

I was going for grandiose, I am not sure what you mean by "Stock movie phrases." if you could identify an example that would help me make them more original.

5 hours ago, kais said:

- page 2: I'll caution the on the overuse of women for 'mercy' type roles, and men for 'aggression' type roles. Unless there is some reason you have assigned the characters this way, I'd suggest switching it up. 

- Fallani only wanting to provide support and healing is another fall into the 'women are nurturing and men are aggressive' fallacy we've got going on. Once was an eyebrow raise. Twice is a frown. Three will get you a Marge Simpson grumble.

There is a reason it is this way. Though not necessarily part of this story there is some deeper interplay with the gods than it may seem on the surface.

5 hours ago, kais said:

- page 2: random aside, but in the Highlander TV series, the villains names predominantly started with a 'K'. That was the first thing I thought when Kyper showed up here

lol, I will have to take a look at that. I don't remember the show well enough. K isn't a villain though.

5 hours ago, kais said:

- I think the apple imagery with the trickster might be a little heavy handed with the Adam and Eve parallels

haha, I didn't even think of that. one of K's hallmarks is his irreverence for everything. I felt having him talking around bites of apple was a way to do that. I choose apple because I like apples, they are delicious and good for your teeth. 

5 hours ago, kais said:

- gods reborn as humans is a fairly common trope. Not that there is anything wrong with it! Just note going forward that you might want to see if you can turn it on its head a bit

This is not a god reborn as human story. With the exception of K(he has a bit role later on) all these gods will not appear in the actual story.

21 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Well, I'm interested! This is a good starting hook, though I'm a sucker for stories about gods. The "god to mortal body" has been done before, but this has potential, if done well.

I'll put in the standard warning about prologues, which I'm sure the others will echo. They're out of favor, at the moment. Is there a reason this can't just be chapter 1? (i.e. does the next chapter take place a long time afterward? if not, you could probably make it Ch 1.)

So this may be a little misleading. I remember a episode of Writing Excuses where I think it was Howard said "If you have a prologue and it involves your main character, why isn't it chapter one?" That one has really stuck with me. None of the characters in the prologue(with the exception of K, and that is really a bit part) do I plan to appear in this book. I supposed that it would eventually be close to a "god in mortal body" story but its not quite that.

21 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 1: "Even V, he spoke out because he would not be true to himself if he didn’t. "

--confusing sentence. I'm not sure who Sh. is refering to.

I see what you mean, I will take another look at the phrasing here.

21 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Comma usage still has some problems.

For Example:
“I follow your wisdom S, you have never failed us.” 
G. looked at him for a long moment, as though really weighing the decision, she was a free thinker. 

Yeah, I tend to have issues with comma usage. Its one of those thing I keep telling myself to look into and get a better understanding but playing video games holds much more potential fun.

21 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 2: Is Sh. the goddess of mercy? I'm not sure from your descriptions.

pg 2: "Sh. narrowed his eyes sharply."

--wait, Sh. is male? I thought female, from the previous descriptions. Or maybe I'm getting confused with someone else's description. I think this needs some clarification.

pg 3: "The God of Honor"
--ah, this is Sh.'s desgnation. I've been confused up until now.

pg 4: "Confrontation didn’t come easily to F. She would much rather provide support and healing."
--ok, I think F. and Sh. are the ones I got confused at the beginning.

hmmm, I will take a long look at this to try and clear of confusion. I have a notation file with all the human gods in it and a brief description. Each god has a primary trait and two sub traits that are taken from human ideals. For example Sh. Justice, Honor, and Wisdom. F is Mercy, Compassion, and Empathy. I was trying not to be info dumpy here and it seems I have made things unclear. 

Thanks for the feedback @Mandamon. It wasn't easy for me to see the confusion since I'm the one writing it.

Hey @Robinski, I caught up on the story this week. Rather then revive all the previous threads I will send you the comments on 5-10 privately. I haven't read any of the other comments so forgive me if I repeat anything others have said. 

Overall: I really felt the intensity of this moment was captured well. it really felt like a desperate struggle. I feel like J is a little wishy washy but that might be just my like of decisive characters in general. there were a few unclear spots to me but that is to be expected in action sequences like this.

As I was reading:

-pg 108, C fell in an arc. This evokes a weird image to me. when someone falls its mostly in a straight line down. she jumps in an arc but then once the fall starts it should move to a straight line downward very quickly. I'm probably getting to nit picky on the physics of falling.

-pg 108, With the way you have been describing the tiger is affecting J I would think he would be thinking of the world in terms of threat and non threat. The lucidity of the thoughts about G are a little weird.

-pg 108, The use of the word murder seems at odds with the way tiger has been described as affecting J. If it is indeed the same thing with C as with J then I would think death would be more appropriate.  murder to me implies conscious human will and evil, death implies a more predatory instinctual thing. 

-pg 111 the line "throw fire as in fireside legends" sounds repetitive. 

-pg 111, In the last paragraph the there needs to be a little more distinction between his animalistic thoughts brought on by the tiger and his more conscious human thoughts. it doesn't feel like the tiger is affecting him even though he says it is.

-pg 114, 1st paragraph, the action sequence isn't clear here. it seems like the attack breaks the momentum of his charge but that isn't the case apparently. Its unclear.

-pg 115, 1st paragraph the flow of the second sentence is weird. might work better with though instead of although.

-pg 115, 2nd paragraph, it sounds like G is in the fetal position on the ground, but I am not sure that is what you are going for.

I know it's been forever but I would like to post this Monday as well.

Thanks @Robinski and @industrialistDragon 

I was looking for more specific words for specific accents but my wording was someone vague. I have never heard patois is that a more British thing?

Howdy folks, Things finally calmed down around here. Good news is that I have found some good time to write. Bad news I am waking up an hour early to do it. I'll be able read some subs here this week and finally put up some comments again. I do have a question for you though:

What terms are there for accents? I have heard lilt and burr, used for Irish and Scottish respectively, but I can't remember many common descriptors for other accents. Maybe I am not well enough read to have come across it. I thought I would run it by you all.

1 minute ago, Robinski said:

So, my expectation was that this opening episode would resolve, then the story would move on to bigger, wider stakes, like a classic 'things get worse' scenario.

Yeah, I have been looking into that. I ended it there mostly because I originally wanted to keep it short. but that no longer being the case I am thinking I will be adding some more maybe expand the "fall" of M into more villainy then they way it ends now. I am still formulating stuff because I don't really want to cut stuff because I feel its more essential  to how the story falls out. I think if I try to strip it down I will make it more boring.

On 7/16/2018 at 11:24 AM, Robinski said:

Yeah, I totally thought it was a novel.

Yeah that seems to be the consensus, so it looks like I am going to expand a lot of stuff. I was likely going to put a lot of stuff backward, maybe showcase M and her home islands, also I might put in an E perspective. I have a lot of ideas where to go. Is it still worth submitting the rest of it for you guys to look at if I am going to make some drastic expansions?

35 minutes ago, shatteredsmooth said:

This time I'm commenting before I read what other people said:

Overall, the heist was my favorite part. Yes, there was still some telling and forced dialogue, but for the  most part, it flowed really well, had a good pace, suspense, and was entertaining. It was also set up well. As soon as I met E a few scenes ago, I figured her and M were going to be stealing something. 

So this puts you ahead of anyone else that has been reading this if you have gone to the end. Glad it that part was enjoyable though. It was my favorite part as well.

I was a little confused by the automaton and the bargain. That seemed like it was setting up for something, but nothing came of it. Is there supposed to be a sequel?

Kind of, In the future M is the ruler of the city. The Automaton was actually an avatar of the god Barion. he recognized the probability of her running the city was high and wanted to secure the Vault from anything bad happening and so he made a deal with her. 

The end was a little anticlimactic. The battle with the guy we knew set her up was rushed, and then the dad didn't even want the amulet in the end. And did anyone notice the guy missing? Did anyone realize who robbed the vault? There seems to be a lot that isn't resolved. 

Yeah I wanted to finish it up because I was intending to make more of a novella type thing. From what everyone is saying I should make this "full length" So I will be looking at that stuff and plugging those kinds of plot holes(I recognize I would have had to do this anyways).

And M decided to stay, but I was never really sure how the events shown actually lead her to want to stay. 

Yeah I can see what you mean, I will have to work on this a bit more.

In one of the threads, you mentioned this was a villain origin story, but to be  honest, nothing about the end screams villain. M seems to have matured a bit, and I could see them making a fair ruler one day. Maybe. If they keep learning. 

So when I was saying it was an origin story I didn't strictly mean that she was going to be a full fledged villain at the end. M's full fledged villainhood come on a bit more gradually. I have larger stories in this world I have to write. Your point is valid though, do you feel it would be important to expand this and make her more clearly a Villain at the end? 

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

much have we read of it? 

it's about 25k words and you have read about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through.

@Majestic Fox, Essentially a first. I say essentially because I had some fantasy enthusiasts read it along with my wife. I added about 10k words after that. but they were all in the beginning, the back half is mostly the same as it was. I didn't have anything like a writing group or anything look at this.

On 7/12/2018 at 6:14 PM, kais said:

Okay so I'm catching up on subs and this is the next one on my list. Since there's all that... fun stuff above, I'm going to read the sub and exclude any comments on implicit bias issues, since they've been well covered already. 

Overall

Pacing is good in this! I was just starting to wonder how much more ball I had to sit through when the action came, so that was perfect. Again, aside from the issues discussed above, the only other big thing that pulled on me was the understanding of breeding for selective phenotypes and such. I want more about what they're trying to accomplish, or at least why they do it this way, because as it's stated it doesn't make much sense. If talent is additive, then the power of each talent would grow, in theory, with each generation. But I don't see an indicator of that, and it reads more like an obsession with inbreeding that anything else (so then I have to wonder about strange hereditary issues cropping up with the more powerful).

So this isn't something I have fully fleshed out. I have Ideas on the why of it but I have to clarify other portions of the world's mythos for certain things to make more sense and I haven't been working on that as much. If you would like more of an explanation I can discuss it over PM with you, as it would get rather drawn out over here.

But generally, this seems to be heading in a good direction. Keep at it, and good luck with the revisions!

As I go

- page one: I actually wouldn't mind a bit of description of the artwork, because we'd learn more about the culture through it.

Yeah I am getting a theme that I need to do some more world building with this. This is rapidly becoming a not so short story.

- page two: I appreciate the blocking of fighting while in a dress. Movies make it look far too easy sometimes.

Thanks, There are some confusing thing I could work on but I like it in general.

- page 2-3: what is all this fun backstory about the bond-sister? I want to read that book!

Yeah, so there are a lot of past and future elements when dealing with this story. I, as evidenced, have an idea for this story already, I got lots of different Ideas the trouble is nailing them down and actually doing the story, lol.

- page four: problematic issues with 'breeding' aside, just from a pure genetics standpoint I feel like this pairing off doesn't make sense. Wouldn't they be trying to (assuming they're all obsessed with Mendelian genetics) cross breed so that you could have, say, a sorcerer-crafter? Assuming that there are positive and negative traits to each group (like, say, sorcerer's use magic but also have a low alcohol tolerance or something) wouldn't they want to breed out bad traits by crossing 'types' to get the best of both worlds? (and then things could go wrong sometimes, like how they keep trying to breed horses with zebras to get hardier zebra-like animals but all they get are the worst attributes of both)

- page six: is this man they're giggling about the one who was borderline abusive in the last sub? WRS maybe here. I don't remember

This dialogue isn't where I want it to be. I will likely make some changes

-Pagenine: there's a fair amount of telling and not showing in pages eight and nine. Just something to look out for

Yeah I have a tendency to tell.

- page 11: unclear why a warrior wouldn't know structural words. I've never had a class in engineering but I know what struts are. We may need more worldbuilding and information on the system of the protag's village (in terms of the sort of caste system they seem to have) to make this more believable

Hmm, interesting point. M's people aren't really into sieges so I am not sure that engineering would be important to their warriors. It is worth giving some consideration to though.

- page 11: Personally, I'd take a jungle temple over a city palace any day

Probably more so if I had a chance to get whats in my head out.

- Gar is kind of adorable. He's my new 'ship

Glad he works. he's not that much of a feature right now. Maybe I will work him in a bit more.

 

Thanks for the critiques @kais. Lots of good points. Will definitely try to work some stuff in there.

On 7/13/2018 at 7:23 AM, Robinski said:

 'Dirty Fantasy' anyone? Anyone...?

HAHA, I love it!

On 7/11/2018 at 8:49 PM, Robinski said:

Sorry, I don't follow this point. Can you clarify, please?  

Yeah, sorry it took a bit to get back to you. I see a lot of the times J is thinking about C and its got a "notice me senpai" vibe(admittedly I am not an anime fan but friends have explained the meaning to me.) I will admit that J does actively pursue C but his thoughts seem to pine after her instead of a "how can I interest her." If that makes more sense.

Ok, I am sorry for getting to these responses to late. One thing I keep talking with @QuirkyGrandpa about is that in her opinion I need to make this longer. I never intended for this to be super long. It seems to me that I won't be able to do this without putting in more content and making the whole thing longer. I can add things in like maybe more of a showcase of M's home, some scenes back there.I could also add in a E PoV. I could add some more about the interactions between the various gods. Also have more searching be done for a sure for her father by M. I am feeling like I wanted to tell something small but I am either unable to do it because of ability or experience. @Majestic Fox, @Mandamon, @Robinski, @kais, what do you guys think? Is there such a thing as too many words in a story? Should I try to beef up or slim down?  Probably a PM would be better for this discussion, feel free to do so with any advice you have for me. Thanks for all your critiques so far they have been a great help.

15 hours ago, kais said:

Overall

First of all, props for this sub not having any overtly problematic content! I'm guessing you had to spend some time cleaning and editing and I really appreciate that. More generally, this sub gave the narrative some much needed forward momentum, but I feel like it fell flat on description and agency. I'm much more excited about E, who has a great voice and actually gets things done, than M, who seems to just let things happen to her. I'm not convinced she has any real concern about her father, and for a warrior her instincts about people around her seem decidedly dull.

So, I didn't edit this for that sort of thing at all. I did a quick edit for some obvious typos or exceptionally bad grammar. The issues with M and E being so much more interesting is spot on and something I am going to have to work on. I need to give M a lot more personality in these scenes.

As an idea, you might consider swapping the voice of E and M. E would make for a much more compelling main character, and I'd love to see a bit more spirit in all this court intrigue. 

The problem with this is M is a big player in future stories I want to tell so getting some personality for her is really important.

As I go

- page one: So M is a seer and a sorceress, but isn't trained in either and maybe doesn't know? That seems really plot convenient. I have some continuing concerns about her lack of self esteem and lack of training. Noting how you've got her home village set up, you could tweak the culture so that kids born out of their caste system don't get training, which would make the fact that she has no idea she can do all these things, make more sense

I don't give a lot of background on M's role in her society. I am still trying to decide if this is something to expand on or just try and tweak what is there already to make it work better. 

- I'd suggest cutting the whole first page. The story really beings on page two, and you could work the 'I've had visions since I was a kid but can't control them' into dialogue anywhere

Yes, I recognized when I did a reread of this prior to submission that this was rather telly. I have definitely gotten confirmation on this.

- page two: I have complex feelings about 'it' being used to refer to this vision-infant, primarily in the context of how M's people have been described thus far. If you don't want to gender the baby, 'they' would be appropriate, or you could juggle the words around so as to not have to use pronouns (it's hard, but it can be done).

So, I mentioned this in response to another person, but the baby thing is more of an easter egg for a future story. Also I really really dislike using they in the singular, as it is by definition plural. In this case it would actually be correct that there are technically two babies but M does not know that at this point. rearranging the words might be a good idea but I will have to do some reflection on where M is coming from culturally to see if it is appropriate. Also is easter egg still supposed to be capitalized even if I an not using it as a reference to an actual Easter egg?

- page three: can you fall unconscious in a vision?

Interesting point, That would depend on if one was asleep during the vision...I will think about this one.

- page three: I doubt morning itself had a headache

This has been mentioned before. I will be fixing this.

- page three: missed opportunity for worldbuilding: please describe the nightclothes, or the bedroom, or something around her so we can get a better feel for the world

Yes, I am going to work on a lot of that. There was a missed opportunity here as I was trying to pick up speed and move on to what I thought was the good stuff. 

- page four: who is the 'young lady?' I thought M was a warrior?

- page four: now she's the 'young warrior' again. I did this a lot when I started writing, too, and eventually my editor beat it out of me. Try to use their names only. If you must use a descriptor, pick one and stick with it

Yes, In my effort to appease @QuirkyGrandpa's issues with repetitions I made this really confusing and will be working on this. 

- page five: is her father actually all that sick? M doesn't seem that concerned

Yeah, I really need to work on her concern, it came out as non existent when it is really really present.

- punctuation and grammar are really struggling on page six 

Agreed, I will be fixing those things.

- page eight: Err, does M have a thing for E? Because M is giving E some hardcore either male or lesbian gaze in the 'her dress hugged her' paragraph. If you're writing lesbians I am, of course, all on board, but aren't they also sisters? Or is the sister thing a bond thing? I don't remember--likely WRS

No, no lesbian things here, I have an issue with moving out of the PoV, Its something I am going to work on.

- E appears to have all the agency in this chapter

Yes, I feel like I got caught up with talking about what happened to M that I forgot that she has to react to thing and has a personality. This is something I will be working on.

- page 11: I find it hard to believe that a medallion that gives eternal youth would just be kept in a vault. Someone would have stolen it and built an empire around it, surely

- page 13: she really thinks she can just go borrow this medallion? Why would someone let that thing out of their vault??

- page 15: stealing the amulet is the first thing I have seen that really looks like a through line in this narrative

Yes, there are a bunch of stuff here that I need to rework to make sense. There are some big issues with stuff I know about the world here but that I haven't mentioned. I really see how this has caused a lot of confusing things. I need to figure out how to work this in smoothly.

 

Thanks @kais for the inputs. there are a lot of things that I need to address to make these scenes work. I will be trying to tackle that.

On 7/6/2018 at 8:13 AM, Robinski said:

Right then, so, I'm trying 'block out' previous issues on the basis of fixes coming forward for certain things, and look at this with a clean perspective. I don't mean ignoring what was passed before, but trying to react to what is in front of me, if that makes any sense. Also, I'm not doing line edits; I've got too much on, and I figure it's not critical at this stage anyway.

Off we go.

Scene 7 

I'm not sure how a vision can be 'true' when it hasn't happened yet.

I wasn't refering to the meaning of objective truth like its true that the sky is blue( @QuirkyGrandpa hates it when I use that example). I was talking about truth the ancient/biblical definition, such as the arrow flies true, more like reliably on its way to the destination.

At the foot of Page 1, when there is talk of pain, I'm confused as to whether this is happening now, or she's still recalling what previous visions felt like.

Well, I said in scene 6, pain racked her body. That is what she was referring to.

When it is the image of a woman that the phoenix takes, why would M not consider her as a 'she', rather than an 'it'? Then, she thinks of her child as an 'it', although I appreciate that this may be because she doesn't know what sex to attribute to it.

You are correct, all the Phoenix are female so she would refer to it as a she. Yes the child is it because she doesn't know its gender. The "it" is actually twins both boy and girl, this is an easter egg for a story set much later.

This scene is interesting, but I'm not sure I was gripped. I felt there could have been more in the way of emotional investment from M. Maybe that will come afterward in reflection.

Interesting point. I will see what I can do.

Scene 8 

I presume she has her eyes closed when she's doing this power thing. Also, what the heck? I thought she was no good as a magic user, I was taken by surprise when she just conjured this ball of power as if it was nothing, required no effort and had no cost (by the look of it).

Her talent isn't very strong, she can't do very much with her limited ability. I also don't know really how to address this comment without giving a large explanation that contains spoilers and I don't want to taint the overall perception of the story...

But if her father had been well, it would not have been in question. There something seeming off about this logic. Contradictory/circular, it seems to me.

I'm sorry could you be more specific I am unsure what you are referencing?

"a blue and gold number" - to me, this is a modern phrase and doesn't really fit with the setting.

Great point, as discussed before I hate language anachronisms. I will now go do some self-flagellation for this.

Who is 'the young lady'? We're in M's poverty, so this doesn't fit.

the young lady is M and we are not in her poverty, she is very wealthy.  I get what you mean I said this to @Mandamon as well, I have issues coming out of the PoV that I need to address.

Her attitude towards having servants it rather alienating to the reader. It bleeds away any sympathy that I have for her.

Hmm, do you mean the fact that she mentions she likes having them take care of the little things? 

I think what went before implied that she was still having visions, but she hasn't practiced the skill for several years? This seemed odd to me.

Its not so much lack of practice as it is lack of experience. Her visions since her first were rare and haven't been as "clear" as they were should have been. She doesn't have a lot to go on because she isn't very "good"

Should be 'Lady D' when the title is used in the name of a particular person.

got it.

There's something wrong with the grammar when she talks to N.

Yeah, I have to take another look at this anyways to see if I want to keep it. 

Her concern for her father isn't very strong, it seems to me. She was all ready not to go and see him, and it took N to tell her to do it. That didn't sit well with me. Make the damnation visitors wait.

Yeah, I need to redo a lot of this to make her concern come through.

The discussions with Lady K seems a bit insubstantial. I guess it was just the tail of it that M caught. E butting in on the family business seems rather presumptuous. I would have thought M would challenge her on it. I'm about to find out if she does.

Good point, I suppose this was a missed opportunity to give M some personality(which at this point she is severely lacking). I will try to work on this.

Why did E send for the healer? Surely somebody else did that as soon as M's father collapsed? I'm confused, but also I feel like she's acting above her station, AND this is something that M should be doing, so it steals agency from M, and makes her look uncaring and inactive.

Yeah, its really something N would have done right away. Again I really do need to make M's concern readily apparent.

I don't get the concubine reference. I feel that's something we haven't heard about.

I thought it was referenced a couple scenes ago. for some backstory E was a concubine and X...rescued isn't the right word but I don't have a better one right now. E was actually a creation of @QuirkyGrandpa.

And then when Mel arrives, E answers for M. Beginning for wonder why M is in the story. I'd happily follow a story about E, who seems much more active, resourceful and interesting.

Yeah, need to express more personality for M.

N doesn't need to introduce AM, they know each other already. It sounds odd.

Yeah that makes sense.

"She was a warrior..." - I feel like, after the first couple of chapters, M no longer acts like a warrior, appearing slow to react in difficult situation, shrinking from embarrassment; not putting her father first at the beginning of the day; and now flushing before a man.

Yep, I think a big problem here is that I have been so focused on telling what happens to M that I haven't been thinking about her and how she should react enough, if that makes sense.

Eternal youth would be expensive!!!!!????? If that thing exists, and can be made by priests, this has enormous implications for this world. If it was for sale, some king would have bought it by now, or stolen it, not to mention every thief in existence throwing themselves at the temple trying to steal it. More than that, some high priest himself, surely, would have picked one of these up by now, and be the ruler of all creation. I feel like the plot does not consider the reality of such a gewgaw existing in this world.

So I gave somewhat of an explanation about this before. I do really need to fix some issues here.

"If the priest of F fail I have you to thank for it." - This is not the right context for this phrase. This phrasing means what it says, which is that 'It's your fault if the priest of F fails.'

Yeah, I will be fixing that.

I'm still not convinced about her attraction to AM. I just don't see the emotional investment behind it. Also, who is Alt, am I supposed to remember him?

She mentions Ath in E's first scene. I might just take the references to him out because he isn't important to this story.

There is almost no description in the story, which makes the reader work to form a picture. That might be good in some respects, but the reader isn't going to bother with other things, and it will leave them with a rather bland impression of events, I think. Take the priest for example. What does he look like? How is he dressed? Age? In the use of the magic, the priest seems to have no process, no actions, just straight into it, magic flowing. You say M can see the magic, but the reader can't, because it's not described. This instance of the use of magic felt really flat to me. It felt like it was something that had to happen and fail so that M needed to go and get the amulet, and so the scene was whistled through as quickly as possible.

Yeah, this has come up with others too. I think I was trying to rush to get to the "good stuff" here when I actually had some good stuff here I just wasted the opportunity.

My impression of AM, still, is that he is up to no good. He engineered her father's illness so that she has to go the temple and acquire this medallion of eternal life, and then he is going to take it from her for himself.

You are correct. I need to make this whole thing a bit more subtle. I feel like it is way too obvious.

"Farewell, my dear." - I just go no sense of any real and genuine emotion from him, he just feels cold a calculating.

I want him to questionable not obviously bad I am having trouble doing this.

Again, I come back to the medallion. Is this the only one in the world? Why on earth would no-one have bought it before now?

Yeah need to work on this really bad.

Scene 9 

Yeah, something like this was always going to happen and M was supremely naive. She would have know this if she had thought about it for 10 seconds. This really undermines an credibility the character had. I'm really impatient with her right now. This is the point in TV shows (characters being transparently dim) that I get ready to stop watching and do something else. Presumably now they will try and steal it.

"Slipping in stealthily and leaving with the medallion seemed dishonest." - Seriously? I think she will find that's because it's the very dictionary definition of stealing.

Yes, I have a lot of work to do here. 

E's use of the term 'honey' dumps me right out of the story. It's a much more 'modern' expression, it seems to me.

ugh, I am disgusted with myself, I will be doing some more self-flagellation. 

Summary

I think you've 'lost' me with this submission. It's like reading about a different character. M started out as the fish-out-of-water warrior, and I was largely convinced of that, but in the last couple of submissions--basically when E arrived--M has lost all sympathy and all agency. Now, E does everything. She has the better dialogue, she takes the initiative, and no to crown it all, she is going into action sneaking and thieving and the like, and M is going to bed. I rest my case. I think you've got the wrong main character.

I'm sorry to be harsh, but I call I like I see it. I'm sure you can fix it; anything is fixable. Unless you don't think it's an issue of course! Other opinions are available, after all  

<R>

Thanks again @Robinski I really do appreciate this. like I said before I will probably ask you some more specific things later.

On 7/5/2018 at 5:04 AM, Mandamon said:

This submission was better at developing character for M, but I had some big problems with the technical and plot side of things.

Having M see the vision drives some much-needed character, and gives us some of her past. I'd like to know more about why she didn't follow that path.

There are a lot of run-on sentences in this, and a lot of missing commas. 
For example, this sentence has both:
"She took a few steps, tripping and falling but she didn’t hit the ground she kept falling, and fell into the soft darkness of unconsciousness."

Yeah I went through this sub quickly for obvious errors but, as with most of my stuff, I need to take a closer look at things like this.

when you have "speech, proper name," when talking to someone, there's almost always a comma in front of the name. They're consistenly left out:
“It’s not that A" -> “It’s not that, A"
"Indeed lady E" -> "Indeed, lady E"

Good to know, thanks

also, two big plot points pulled me out of the story: M's lack of concern for her father and the overpowered amulet. You tell us M is worried about her father, but every action--getting up late, wandering around, taking a bath--shows that she's not concerned. Also, this amulet is ridiculously powerful, if it does what it's supposed to. I can't believe the priests just have it locked up. If this world is rich in very powerful artifacts like this, then I haven't seen sign of it yet.

Yeah, I need to make this more subtle, and make M's concern more apparent. @Majestic Fox said much the same thing about her father. As for the medallion I see what you are saying. This has to do with the gods of the world, which I have a good idea what they do but I don't make that clear at all. Barion is the god of Creativity, Productivity, and Inspiration. Without going into too much depth one of the responsibilities of his priests is ensuring that things that get created that are too powerful or destructive are locked away safely. They are somewhat like curators so to speak. I realize that it is bad that I have to explain this and I will work on it.

Notes while reading:
pg 3: "Morning broke with a gigantic headache"
--I don't think morning had the headache.

Good point, though i think that if morning broke then everyone would likely have a headache.

pg 4: She's really taking it easy this morning. Shouldn't she be running to wherever her father is to find out if he's ok?.

pg 5: "her heart heavy with worry over her father. She wanted to go to him but knew that there would be people waiting to talk to House Deliviss. With her father sick it was up to her to see to the people her father was supposed to meet with today."
--I feel like she could easily pop in to see her father first. The people waiting would understand.

Yeah, I need to ramp up concern for her father she is coming across as callous. I may move this part until later and have her go to her father right away.

pg 5: "Is there something wrong?"
Um. See above concerns. This exchange could be deleted. It's very obvious the entire household would be in an uproar over their leader collapsing and vomiting blood.

Well obviously my attempt at humor didn't work here. I was also trying to inject a little personality in Naliv. Maybe this isn't the place for that.

pg 6: “I promise.”
--does she even know what's wrong?

No, she just wants to fix it. She is really concerned I am just doing a poor job of showing it.

pg 7: "Just  wanted to check in and see how your father is doing"
--now this is becoming a theme. Everyone seems justifiably concerned over her father except M. Is there some reason she isn't?

Same as above

pg 7: "I should get up early"
--except it's the afternoon.

That was meaning that E got up early and started to take care of things. E has been up since early morning. I will try to get this clarified.

pg 8: M does a lot of objectifying of E. Is M attracted to her? Otherwise this seems a lot like male gaze.

No, I was talking to @QuirkyGrandpaabout this, I think this is a symptom of a larger problem that I have of pulling out of the PoV. @Robinski has mentioned this quite a few times and I am going to be working on that as a address a lot of these comments.

pg 10: "enjoyed last night as much as I did"
--that's a weird thing to say, considering.

pg 11: "uncomfortable with the lie, but she couldn’t ever tell him the full truth."
--I mean, she's telling him a lot already. Didn't she say even her father didn't know about the visions?

pg 12: "to be able to stave off any illness and give the barer eternal youth"
--if this thing exists, I am 100% sure someone would already be using it, and have established an empire around it. It basically makes you immortal.
“Besides, it would be expensive, probably even out of your father’s considerable price range.”
--And certainly not even for sale.

So I talked about this above but I follow that this is something I need to work on. making this make more sense in the story and flow better. There is a lot of awkwardness in these pages that I am going to have to address in general.

pg 13: "M saw the flows clearly, which was something unusual. Most sorceresses couldn’t see the energies used by other magic users."
--can you show us this, rather than tell us?

Yeah, I need to sit down and flesh the whole magic thing out more. I have tons of ideas about how I want things to work in my head but I need to write them down and make sure it works/makes sense.

pg 13: "The medallion would be secured, and her father would be healthy again"
--This seems like a very problematic plot point to me. First, such an item would cause chaos in any world. 2) it wouldn't just be available for anyone to use. 3) who would voluntarily give up such an item?

pg 14: "head of the temple refused to even consider it!”
"Gave me some tripe about the relics in the vault being put there for some fool reason"
--yeah, still have a big disbelief problem with this.

As I said above it seems I have a lot of work to do on these sections to make them make sense and make the story flow.

Thanks a bunch for this @Mandamon. It definitely makes it clear that I have some work cut out for me here.

On 7/4/2018 at 2:51 AM, Majestic Fox said:

Couple of disclaimers..

I've not read your previous chapters, so this feedback will only be so useful to you. That said, I think you can get an interesting perspective from someone jumping into the story part way through, so I hope it's useful.

In the interest of precisely communicating how engaged I was at any particular moment, I ended up giving a score out of ten. This isn't me rating the page for quality of writing, it's just giving you an honest idea of how compelled I felt by the story in that moment. There are times when I'm reading highly regarded professional authors and my interest might be only be hitting a 6/10 for some sections. 5 is neither bored nor compelled...just a mild state of interest. 

If this is a first draft then what I want to say is well done, you're doing a great job and just keep going to the end. If you're in revisions then you can unleash the full power of your internal editor without fear of stopping before you get to the end (something I personally need to improve on). 

Thanks, its kind of a first draft, I say that because I went back and added a lot of scenes at the beginning, leaving a lot in the later half. I wrote this about 3 years ago and had a few fantasy enthusiasts on my submarine read it and provide me some comments. 

P1.

Almost tempted by this, but not quite. It lacks the precision and authorial voice to win me over. I feel like you're going for a Eddings esq into, but the tone shifts from semi-authorial to conversational. What do you gain from keeping it? 

Yeah I recognized this as really telly when I wrote this. Especially considering that its a real break in the narrative, I really might take it out or severely limit it.

P2

I like the imagery and love phoenixes in general… I feel good that we’re in a character’s viewpoint now – straight away it’s more compelling. Feels a little over-weighed on the symbolic and the abstract. Death and rebirth are very interesting themes and I want to see them expressed uniquely. If you’re using a phoenix, then I think you have even more work to do to make sure they are specific and unique to your world, your imagination, and that this is communicated in vivid concrete description. There are hints of this, and the medallion is an intriguing element to throw in there. When I read that I was drawn in because it was specific, unexpected, and not overtly connected to death/rebirth symbolism.

So I have lots of ideas about the pheonix thing. I haven't specifically written anything down but I have lots of stuff about it in my head. As for the extra stuff, M is a fixture in a the world at large that I have rolling around in my head. So some of the stuff I threw in there relate to other stories I want to tell my world here.

P3 (Scene 8)

Good contrast with the scene before – what’s more down to earth than a headache? 6/10

I also like the idea of transferring the pain into the ball, though this could be improved with more specific concrete description (that’s true for my writing, and pretty much every submission I’ve ever read on RE… vivid, world-specific concrete description is not easy to write, and if you can do it on regular basis, inflected by the character's unique way of seeing then your writing will be in the top 1% of none professional writers imo).

I’m not engaged by these big questions she’s asking herself, but that might well be to do with the fact I’ve not read the beginning of your story. I want to know who she is, what she loves, her personality, her relationships, what her home is like. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’ve already answered those in a compelling way and that by this point in the story I naturally empathise with her. If it’s a first draft then there’s a fair chance you won’t have done all that, in which case no worries  : )

Yeah, this is the part where I seem to be loosing people. I think I will rework this try to give a better sense of M's personality.

P4

Your writers instincts are telling you to pay attention to small details here, which is good. She’s worried. Ok...I’m mildly compelled as I read. Hoping to be drawn in deeper by character dimension by a plot event or a unique milieu..  5/10

So, if you didn't know my mom recently passed away. I was unfortunately the one who found her. I bring this up to a purpose because I learned, when something is a serious stress occurs your mind can go in some weird directions and you get concerned about some odd things. I obviously hand't gone through this when I wrote this but It give me some ideas on how to change it giving some of the dimension you were talking about

P5

State of mild engagement continues at 5/10 (less than that would be slipping into bordem)

P6

Slightly more engaged (6/10)…Good description of her dying father. Incoherent sounds? Is he going mad?

Less interested by the second para… show don’t tell applies here I feel. Can’t we stay in the moment with them?

Wow, she left the room pretty quick. Feels like a missed opportunity to make me care about the characters. Nothing really happened… you bailed on the scene just after you introduced it. Don’t be afraid to slow the pace and spend a good few pages on this. If you go a bit deeper it will be more compelling.   

My interest drops back to 5/10

Yeah, this is a great point. I feel like I was rushing through this trying not to be boring but ended up causing that by rushing and making M seem more or less callous. Her father is one of the central figures in her life now, He's the only person she feel accepts her for who she is. I made the wrong move her because she would stay longer.

 P7

4.5/10 ...small talk.. not sure what the point of this is. We’re well into the chapter and nothing much has happened yet.

 

P 8

Description of E is interesting. I’m wondering about what she’s like as person. Slightly intrigued. I’m at 5.5/10

Yeah people seem to be really taken with E, lol. Both good and bad. Its good because it means I can write and interesting character. Its bad because people are more drawn to E rather then M which means I have a lot of work to do bringing M up on the interesting scale.

P9

Cool, a High Sorcerer – hoping for a unique take on a favourite old trope. 5.5

So unfortunately my magic isn't and pinned down as I would like it. I might get an outline together for it and just submit that one week. It is different but I am not as solid on it as I need to be.

P 10

The characters are all so nice to each other. Niceties alone aren’t all that compelling. I drop to 5/10 and continue reading

P11

Ah, the phoenix…feels like the plot is about to move somewhere.

‘Now I’m certain…’ How has A managed to glean so much from M’s mentioning of the medallion? She barely said anything. Feels like he’s a vehicle for exposition here. 4/10

 

P12

What? She mentioned the medallion, that’s what motivated him to speak about it. Confused.

This knowledge about the solution for her father’s illness feels abstract, tenuous and far too easily acquired. Where’s the drama?

 

P13

Ah, the healing fails. Good. My interest immediately increases 5.5/10

But…then the characters just exchange more niceties and farewells.. 4/10

Yeah the scene over these 3 pages needs a lot of work, I have some ideas how to do that. M needs to show more emotion overall. I have her really reserved, that needs to change. 

P 14 (Scene 9)

Feels like an abrupt jump here. Mild confusion. The Priests refused to heal her father? Or to give her the medallion. 5/10 

Ah thievery, another favourite old trope. If this is the way you’re going then I’ll be needing a unique manifestation of the jewel heist or I’m liable to put the book down.

M has been raised as a warrior… and it was a rogue who made the suggestion. This just smacks of DnD character types. This might not be true, but it suggests the author lacks nuance.

It has been said by many that I lack sublety. Honestly the D&D thing was really a mistake. I need to exercise some better terms for this.

P15 and 16

E’s story about Xav stealing the crown is quite funny. That kind of thing would push me toward a 6/10 on my home-made ‘compelling scale’, but I still feel disoriented by the sudden jump into the scene.

I think part of the problem is that I don’t really believe that this medallion is worth pursuing – it’s so abstract for me…she just encountered in a dream/vision and A mentioned something about its healing capacity. It’s so tenuous. The medallion, in my mind, feels more like a plot device than a real thing, with weight and texture and history. The other part of it is that I don’t empathise with her desire to heal her father, but let’s chalk that down to me jumping into the story late.

I like E but she winks too much. Give me some other characterisations and I’ll like her more. If she winks again then she’ll start to become annoying.

Yeah, I can really see your point here. I feel like I need to spend some more time on some different thing to make this work out. These scene didn't really set how I wanted them to.

 Well done. There are some interesting elements in this story. Please keep writing!  

Thanks again for the critique @Majestic Fox. Some good points were brought up and I look forward to trying to get up to a 7 on this scale at some point. 

I guess I could, but I really need to sit down and work on some stuff though. I will submit something that isnt Ivory Tower.

Whew, I'll admit I haven't done a close read of these crits but they are quite soulrending great. I have been pretty busy, I will hopefully get some time to read them fully and comment and ask questions. @Robinski you are right to call it, @Mandamon is too, At this point the story is trying to take a turn and get on the freeway but I haven't done maintenance and my wheels came off on the turn. I will probably have some initial questions and I might have some ideas to run by you guys. Anyways, thanks for reading I really appreciate you guys going through it even though it was likely a chore. 

Overall: I really like a lot of the description. It was very rich but at the same time it didn’t distract from the flow or feel and was never boring. There were a few confusing part for me that I have outlined, mostly at the beginning. Some others would likely be cleared up by me having read the first few parts. Regardless its likely better then I could have done at my best.

-          Pg 1, The forest’s light sounds weird to me. I think of forests as dark and their canopy as making light hard to reach someone laying on the floor.

                  So when W feels the breath then opens her eyes she looks up at the canopy, not at something near her…does that mean the creature is very large? It’s a little confusing

-          Pg 2, she is sitting inside the creature’s breath, yet looking at its face? Still confused

                  So she is sitting on the creature’s palm, so the creature is gigantic and the forest is on its palm. Thinking I see this a bit more clearly

-          Pg 3, she moves from sitting on the palm to the chest suddenly.

                  So the creature is in the ground rather then being the ground

-          Pg 6, they ride deer, interesting, are the small?(obviously this might have been covered previously)

                   The phrase derringer arched doorway is a little odd, I am assuming it’s a stylized doorway.

-          If being fae blooded is such a problem would they not have spent a bit more time on questioning her to find out what happened?