Ixthos

In a sense, considering how Leras gained the shard of Preservation ... he actually is a murderer. Its also possible that knife is the method used - maybe every vessel has one, or Leras once was a killer but turned his back on it - aside from the shattering - and this is why his attitude matches Preservation, though he kept his knife.

This isn't a discussion on reforging Honour, but rather the final state Honour or the new shard formed from Honour and parts of the others will end up. In a sense, if the topic of Honour is like discussing ice cream, then this topic is about how Honour will be a ten-layer cone with each layer its own flavour. You are discussing the merits of the flavour of ice cream being chocolate over vanilla, and there being only one layer. They are related, but distinct, and discussing the one can touch on the other, but shouldn't overshadow it. There actually is precedent for this, which I have addressed earlier, but to recap the Cosmere reasons for this, I will place it in spoilers

@LerasiumMistborn I appreciate your frustration at what seems certain to you will happen, but perhaps you should address that issue in another thread. It might be better if you make a topic addressing what you think will happen with Kaladin becoming Honour, or fixing the shard, rather than Dalinar, and let this thread remain mainly about the idea of Honour being held by a committee. I appreciate how you feel, I really do, and it might be best if you did that to allow the conversation you would like to have about Dalinar and Kaladin to develop in a thread focused on that topic.

@Bigmikey357 Sort of, but not exactly - I think that the shard will become fully intact again, but put together slightly differently, and possibly having parts of other shards added to it, basically a bit like what Wit said about gibberish. If the original form of Honour was like a gem with ten facets, with Tanavaste at the centre of this gem, then Honour was shattered so that each facet has deep cracks and is seperated from the others, but still in the same relative position. If this is the case, then the new form of Honour would again be a gem with ten faces, each more or less the same faces as before, but each face holds its own vessel, each equally having the right to be called Honour, each equally a part of Honour, but none of them the totality of Honour, though all can use the full power of the shard unless the others claim it. Or perhaps each only having direct access to a tenth of its power, but still being fully part of the power of the others, just as every muscle in your body is a part of you, but your heart or intestinal muscles are not under your control. They wouldn't be "shardlettes", as those are - to my mind - what splinters are, while Avatars as used in Brandon's terms would probably be more like someone with multiple personalities, or classic depictions of creatures with two or more heads. Maybe we are thinking of the same thing slightly differently. With that in mind, I think the answer to your first question is basically that they are still connected to a full shard, just not the only ones connected to it (though I do think elsewhere there are other shards which have been split in two, each shard only half of the shard it was before and distinct from one another, with distinct vessels, but that is another topic, and relates to how much the definition of a shard is based on the idea power and how much a shard is based on the idea of an idea). The second would then tie to that in the sense I don't know if they could or couldn't leave one another, but I don't think that would change whether or not they are fully shards or only part of a shard, as no matter how far away they move they likely will remain equally connected in the spiritual realm before and after leaving. I think that shards are based more on the idea they represent than on the power, and while shards can be added together and still be shards, I think there is a distinct upper limit on how finely an idea can be broken into small ideas before they stop retaining the same abilities a more intact shard would retain, and no longer are considered shards. Either way, I think the Bondsmith-Honour (which is still equally a part of Honour and the other Order-Honours as ones left hand is to ones foot) would still strive to keep them united and in the same area. ... Except for Willshaper-Honour. That one would try to leave before being fully intact :-P

And Szeth can say "I am the Law!" For that part, the quote is from https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1640. Highlighting the relavent part: Basically, while Odium is mainly in Voidbinding, this quote seems to be saying that surgebinding does have some Odium. As there does seem to be a distinction between the left and right hand sides as the orders are presented (Windrunners top right, Skybreakers top of the rightmost, Dustbringers bottom of the rightmost, etc.) I think that could be an indication of the more self-focused (and thus "passionate") orders, while the more others-focused orders are less Odium influenced. Not that the Odium-influenced orders are bad for being partially connected to Odium, only that they have a small amount of Odium added to them, just as Truthwatchers have a much more significant and fair amount of Cultivation in them. Another partial reason I believe this is - if Odium is associated with Salas the purple or violet moon, and Honour with Nomon the blue moon, and Cultivation with Mishim the green moon, then, looking at the chart, the topmost right order of Honourspren - Windrunners - are blue, and Honour. The bottommost order of spren - Truthwatchers - are green, and Cultivation. And one or both of the two leftmost orders of Inkspren and/or Lightspren - Elsecallers and Willshapers - are dark purple/indigo/violet, and Odium. So the top is Honour, the bottom is Cultivation, and the left is Odium, while all still being mostly of Honour with some Cultivation, and only very slightly Odium. Also, @Calderis fair enough :-) to each their own, and civil disagreement is one of the best ways for an argument to end :-) I like your theory too, I just feel that this is how things have been set up, and it seems logical to me, though I can appreciate that you disagree. I hope as events unfold more is revealed :-)

I suspect that most would not initially mix - some might even react violently, like (unpublished works spoilers:) or like Ruin and Preservation. It probably would involve getting them into the right state or charge before they can combine, and then it would also become a case of getting the ratios right.

@Invocation Interesting ideas :-) A few quick questions Does having the limb give the abilities to the whole body, so replacing an arm could give Memory, while the arm functions as a normal limb? And if the limb is destroyed, does the ability remain Do the limbs function at the same level as a normal limb, and can they feel touch and pressure and temperature? How does the Elemental abilities tie to what the limb can do? Is it a combination of an Elemental ability with a Physical one, or is it that one can have an Elemental ability and/or a Physical one, but they don't "combine", so if you replace a full arm you don't have "Storm strength" but rather "Storm" and "strength" as an example? Could you replace all your limbs and gain more abilities? Does anyone who dies there - even if they didn't go to try to bind a limb - become a ghost? Sounds like an interesting system :-)

We have all had theories, some which were proven correct and some incorrect. Some which we hope are true, and some which we hope are wrong. Which theories do you have which either have been proven wrong and you are glad you were wrong - either because the theory irritated you, or because the answer was better than you had expected it to be - or you currently have that you hope are wrong? For me, when the sample chapters were coming out for Oathbringer, and Dalinar started to get his memories back, I was dreading the reason - I though, because Evi was no longer his wife, his memories of her would return ... and his memories of Navani would begin to fade. The story would involve him slowly losing his memories of her, and even seeing her as a void, something absent in the room, unable to interact with her or even hear her ... I am very glad that didn't happen.

Indeed! In a sense the metals are an exotic form of matter, and finding out the exact differences and properties they have with regards to regular metals and each other ... that has lots of possibilities - for example, what would happen to a Lerasium alloy that was melted using some form of investiture? Would it do something different to Preservation's pool?

I like it :-) I'm assuming that at least some of the manifestations themselves would lend themselves towards altering the state of the investiture naturally, if with a little coaxing, though what is potentially very interesting is the volume change that would be invoked by that change - how much mist is needed to form a bead of Lerasium (or Atium, as the mists have combined in a sense), and how much mist would a Lerasium bead release if it evaporated? Would they change states to liquid first, or immediately sublimate? I am on board with this theory :-)

@Karger As @Invocation explained, I'm not American, so I don't use American spelling, even when I'm talking about something I read from an American author. My biggest challenge when reading Mistborn is to make sure I don't end up using the American spelling of aluminium in general conversation due to how often that shows up :-P I spell Honor as Honour rather than Honor as a matter of ... honour :-P @CrazyRioter To each their own, and I see where you are coming from, but I don't think of them as proper nouns - if I met someone named Honor I would spell it that way when talking to them, but I think that it doesn't quiet apply to the shards, though I can appreciate your stance :-) @Calderis My theory about how that can be done is I think similar to your own - I think that the shards of Honour are "grouped" in the spiritual realm around the ten different ideals and ideas of Honour, and that each is also still connected to the others, but weakly. Dalinar could begin to connect to the largest part, the core part which connects to the others most strongly that corresponds to the Bondsmith part, but once he united those splinters into a partial shard, and tried to take it up and take up the rest, he would find there is some resistance, because while he matches the idea of Bondsmith-Honour, he doesn't match the idea of [Other orders]-Honour. But, at that point, he could feel the connection the other Knights have to that part ([Specific order]-Honour), though it is still too fractured for them to take it up. Using his connection to that part, which he hadn't taken up yet, but was connected to it kind of like (Mistborn spoilers:) In a sense, "Dalinar/Bondsmith-Honour" would form a triangle with each "[Order]-knight/[Order]-spren" and the still-broken "[Order]-Honour", with Dalinar-Bondsmith-Honour fixing [Order]-Honour with the Knight in question and their spren assisting by solidifying the connection he had, and then the knight and spren taking it up to become part of the now more complete Honour, only it might not be Honour any more if they are also using investiture or the entire shard of one of the others to complete the patch, so Cultivation or Odium also being drawn partially or completely in as well. I think this also addresses your concern, @Steel Inquisitive ([Edit:] And @Shardbearer! Sorry, I forgot to add you in - I also refer you to the case with the writer of the letter which used plurals :-) ) in that the shard technically wouldn't be Honour any more - I think, and this is the current form of this theory, which might change, that the new shard would contain either all or some of Cultivation (due to the bottom orders), and at least a little bit of Odium (due to the left hand orders), though it also is possible that it will contain all of them - I've referred to this idea before as a single/partially-dual/dual/partially-triple/triple shard, which I'm sure we can all agree is a very simple and straightforwards description :-P I think that the "right hand" orders are Honour-Cultivation, with the top right being more Honour, the bottom more Cultivation (though still with more Honour than the top has Cultivation), and the "left hand" orders are Honour-Cultivation-Odium, but only a little Odium, as Brandon has said that Surgebinding also has some Odium in it. The right hand orders are all focused outwards (protecting others, making sure others obey the law, being obedient to someone else, listening to others), while the left hand are more inwards and slightly more selfish (standing firm, exploring, learning, finding truths about oneself). Part of the reason for this - the taking up parts of other shards - is I don't think a shard is just the investiture that it is composed of, but might also be an idea, and that idea is what is shattered and this then shatters the power. I don't think every spren needs to die to fix the idea, as they are just power associated with the idea or ideal, but if they are needed, then getting the power from other shards to fill in the gaps could help avoid an issue if the power must be regathered - the spren lost - to fix the shard.

@Gasper Cool idea! That probably will be a precursor to this if my theory is right :-) @Gray to It might, but if the Bondsmith vessel leads, it might not be a problem, and as one of the letters showed, it isn't impossible for a council of minds to rule a shard, possibly by each taking charge of a different region of space, or simply agreeing to work for a common purpose, but not to interfere with how the others does so. @Invocation Thanks and thanks :-D

Not just those three, but all the remaining ones. And Ruin didn't hate to build, if he did then he wouldn't have worked with Preservation when there were many other things to ruin. Either way, the main point is that if they can be convinced Odium is violating the agreement, then, as the writer said "he will be dealt with".

I'm afraid I don't understand?

@Bigmikey357 Exactly! I think it will be a combination of shard metals, the unique possible charges spikes can have from other types of life, and metallurgy allowing for single-atom spikes, and one type of metal welded to smaller slivers of other metals. I think part of future stories will involve them finding sources of the metals, possibly able to precipitate them out of the spiritual realm directly once they identity the correct shard, or visiting shardpools to extract them.

@Karger For pruning I am also referring to removing thorns and parasites. Cultivation requires destroying things which would harm what you are growing. And as I said, Harmony contains Ruin, so it still could play a factor. Either way, shards can act outside their role if it serves their role, just as Ruin can build something if it can use it to break even more things.

I disagree with a popular theory, which is that Dalinar will take up Honour. But I do think Dalinar will become someone who holds that power, just not alone. There are ten orders of knights, each expressing a different part facet of Honour, and most of them are contradictory. Skybreakers and Windrunners fought one another, each trying to keep their oaths, which ran against one another. Lightweavers don't get on with Windrunners, with their differences in approach and views. Some focus more on martial honour and others more on social honour. Some are outward focuses and some inwards. Only Bondsmiths keep them all in line, keep them united, but even then, a Bondsmith doesn't express every facet of honour - Bondsmiths express only bringing people together, and becoming a better person. Thematically, the stories are also about how no one person can save them, they must unite together. Multiple nations, multiple species, multiple Orders. I think when Honour was splintered that it was also a splintering along the lines of the idea of Honour, and I think that can be reconciled only by having ten people, each representing the ideal of honour in different ways, guided by a Bondsmith and possibly a Truthwatcher, unite, and together take up Honour. Ten people, ten spren - or maybe more - taking up Honour, each to represent a different side of it. And possibly taking up parts of the other shards too. I think this will only happen in the tenth book, or maybe the ninth, but either way, I don't think Honour will be remade into a shard held by Dalinar or any other person, but by ten people, together. In new unity.

My theory is that Odium will be contained again, or perhaps killed, but if he does die then Moash will take him up. The authors of the letters in Oathbringer, guided by Dalinar, will help, and their efforts will allow ten knights to contain Odium. The remainder of the book would then cover them beginning to explore the Rosharan system in the first fabrial space ships, while waiting for Odium or Odium held by Moash to break free, this time for a battle across the whole Rosharan system. And Wit will disappear into a pool, and head off towards the expanse of the vapours ... :-P

@Karger I don't think you would interfere with each other in an attack, due to how I think the attack would work. I think that the shards compose the spiritual, so you can't dodge an attack, only block it. And if several attacked different parts together, it gets harder to block them all - it might even be that they can't harm him, but incapacitate him, prevent him from doing other things while Dalinar and the others work together to finish him or more fully lock him into a prison. Basically, they can all attack independently, and as they are each targeting a different part they wouldn't be stepping on one another's attacks, or even if they target the same spot, they would only add to the attack, so being ripped apart with more strength behind it. Also, Dalinar would be guiding them, or getting them to agree to cooperate. With regards to their ability to harm, Vin held Preservation and attacked Ruin, Harmony contains Ruin, Cultivation can knock something down in order to build something up - pruning - and Endowment is to give something, even if it isn't something you wanted.

@LerasiumMistborn The events are still referred to in Bands of Morning though. And the Fused are confirmed to be cognitive shadows, just as the Heralds are confirmed to die and gain new bodies. In any case, I don't think Dalinar will die. If I may, how do you think Brandon would have phrased the message he sent you if Dalinar has a big role in Stormlight 6 to 10 but didn't want to spoil it?

@LerasiumMistborn Mistborn secret history spoilers:

Guess we will have to see what happens :-) I think this is all being hinted at, but if Honour is reformed in the first five to lead the attack that could be cool :-) I think that is only going to happen in the last book or second last though :-P Either way, I'm interested in what Brandon will do

I don't mean to keep referring to the Cosmere spoiler topic link in the first post, but I actually addressed that in that topic. Basically, Stormlight Archives is already a conflux book, with Awakening alluded to, Aethers, the metallic arts, life on other planets, the letters, and the hints about Wit. It is possibly to say that there is life on other planets (said in Oathbringer), forces which could hurt Odium (said in another book in the Stormlight Archives), and explicit letters and conversations by shards about them and their relationship to one another.

I know, but I'm suggesting either he will break a rule - on purpose or perhaps accidentally - and thus be open to attack, or Dalinar can appeal to them to follow the spirit of their agreement, rather than the ... letter ;-) :-P I think we actually agree on that one - we don't know enough about them yet, but I have a theory about shards and moons which speculates that ones power is strongest where their feet are, so like lifting a heavy box if you place your feet under it you can leaver it up better, but affecting a more distant place is harder, like trying to lift a heavy box when it is a metre away. I think that what is happening is that it isn't feasible to attack someone distant by yourself, as they can fend off the attacks which are relatively weak, but if several people attack together, you are fighting both multiple assaults and their collective strength - from lots of weak attacks - is stronger than you are. Also, Cosmere spoilers:

Fair points, but I mean they could reach out from the spiritual realm, attacking collectively - or interfering collectively - through a domain which reaches everywhere, and which (Cosmere spoilers:) Also, exhibit A: Finally, the letters have consistently shown Wit trying to get help against Odium. As the link in the first page shows, their have been references in the books in the Stormlight Archives how Odium has been wounded before and won't risk provoking drawing out forces who could hurt him, how there is life on other planets and more beings like Honour and Odium, and the explicit references that there is an oath they all took which if they break means they are free to be attacked. Dalinar is about being pious and guiding, and the "others" will only act against someone who broke the rules, acting in justice and with confidence. Dalinar could guide them, and appeal to them.