Mage of Lirigon

There goes the idea that the Radiants could learn more about Ashyn, the Dawnshards, etc. from her. I'm sure she'll be woefully uinformed, at least about the really important stuff, on this topic. *sigh* It's never storming easy, is it?

True enough, but the singers don't really have a sense of that. Most of them have no real desire to fight humans at all, from what we've seen.

The Heralds have already proven themselves to not be trustworthy, so I don't think Jasnah was worried about alienating them. You have a point about the Heralds not being able to withstand torture, but even a little time, like a few months or even days or hours, might be useful if done at the right time. After what was done to them, converting them back would be a tough deal. I can see why she wouldn't think of that as being an option. especially with Odium fanning the flames. Rather than creating conflict, it seemed to me to be more about highlighting the differences in how Kaladin and Jasnah think.

Exactly! It's not as if the murder was forgotten about, it had a huge impact on the book itself. Some may argue that it therefore makes it pointless for Adolin to have done it, but it made sense for the character, and the consequences are better dealt with in his personal life. Perhaps I misspoke. Seeing how the murder will affect Dalinar's relationship with Adolin will be interesting going forward.

I agree. Seeing Adolin's relationships with Dalinar, Renarin and Kaladin are a large part of why I like his character. This was my opinion as well, especially considering what ended up happening to House Sadeas in the end. Having this become a huge deal then get fixed because House Sadeas is basically dead would be a waste of time. I'm more interested in seeing how this will affect his relationship with Dalinar moving forward.

I can only speak for myself here, but it's not like I'm married to this theory. I believe in it because it makes the most sense. If someone can give me a reason why it can't happen, then I'll reconsider. I've done so in the past and I'll do it now.

They were communicating, I think Maya would have let him know if he was off-base there. She certainly made her displeasure clear to him at other times there. Wyndle is one person. Surges for cutting out what is unnecessary and healing what is. Sounds good for cultivating to me. This is not based on an assumption. It's based on the meaning of the word cultivation. The other Shards' Intents have matched the meaning of the words, haven't they? Why would Cultivation be different? What did you want him to do then? Drop what he was doing and focus entirely on the child? He simply wasn't compatible to any other spren who were looking for bonds. That's all. Maya communicated with Adolin in Theylen City. You can say the perpendicularity caused it, but I doubt highly that Brandon would go so far as to give Maya a name simply to bait and switch the readership, especially after he pulled something similar with Eshonai and Elhokar. Frankly it seems to me that people are pulling opposing arguments out of nowhere.

Why would Cultivationspren be so opposed to fighting again? Maya certainly wasn't opposed to killing that thunderclast. I think Calderis mentioned this before, but Cultivation is not a kind concept. Eliminating undesirables is baked in. He was rather busy at the time. It's not like there's a huge amount of spren looking for bonds. If it was only the three heartbeats, I'd be skeptical too. It's that, plus the fact that Maya saved him and communicated with him that makes me feel that Brandon is going this way. I can't see why he would put that in for no reason at all.

Dealing with the crisis at Hearthstone mostly turns back into Brandon subverting the idea of the Voidbringers being rampaging monsters, which was basically already subverted in WoR. Personally, seeing Kaladin meeting his family, Laral and Roshone was more satisfying than anything else. Shallan did interact more with the Ghostbloods. We didn't learn too much more about them, but Brandon's playing the long game with them. Can't blame him for not giving up the game immediately. Jasnah did get information, but she mostly kept it to herself. What she did get has already come in handy, as seen in the last part of the book. She may even have some more nuggets tucked away. Again, your problem seems to be that Brandon has not given away the game in one book. This is a ten book epic. Everything can't be revealed at once. Adolin killing Sadeas directly led into House Sadeas' defection to Odium though. As for personal consequences to Adolin, it eroded his father's view of who he thought, or rather wanted Adolin to be. Moash joined odium instead, which makes him more significant. In fact, seeing as the Diagramists are, at least for now, Odium's side, he did end up joining them, in a way. One of the problems of reading a long running series like this are that people get entirely too comfortable with what they want to happen and mix it up with what the author foreshadows, or they end up being far too invested in their theories and aren't able to fully accept what the author actually writes.

I do agree that Kaladin is getting better, but I also wonder if he might be avoiding serious issues that could drag him back down. On that note, I think going straight to Shadesmar after Kholinar was bad for Kaladin personally. The sheer strangeness and danger of the place, and the fact that Dalinar needed his help so much, may have stopped him from dealing with what happened in Kholinar out of sheer necessity. For someone with as serious a problem as Shallan, not choosing to make the problem worse is a victory though. I think the end of OB at least shows that she's trying to go forward on the right path for her. IIRC, Kaladin doesn't know Veil and Radiant are a thing, so of course he's not going to differentiate between them. He and Adolin are working from two totally different levels of information, so is it really valid to compare them on this part? It's interesting to talk about reality in this case, because people can only work with the reality that they know. Adolin doesn't have the advantages of WoB's and reading Shallan's PoV like us ,the readers. He can only work with what Shallan tells him. In that context, I do think Adolin is doing the right things, as far as he is aware. In terms of what is best for Shallan, isn't it more important that she has someone there who is willing to support her? At least, Shallan certainly thinks so.

Saw it yesterday. It's definitely taken Captain America's place as my favourite Marvel movie. Truly an excellent film!

He doesn't really have much passion to become a Radiant- his self-esteem is too low for that. But I see your point. It would be quite a twist. Lances are not really made to stab at close range combat though. They're clumsy weapons. A sword could have been easier to manuever with. Though again, I see your point. It's an interesting theory. I mean, trying to corrupt rather than kill Adolin doesn't have much percentage in that scenario, especially if Dalinar had fallen. But it really would be quite the twist.

Does this mean that the closer a spren is Cultivation the easier it would be to break the bond? That it would near impossible for a honorspren but relatively easier for a cultivationspren, depending on the Intent of how to bond was broken? To be fair, Odium seems like he's going to destroy Roshar after Splintering Cultivation. I can understand how that may be a more pressing concern to Ishar and Honor, who's more aware of what Odium can do compared to later Radiants. There's also a chance the Radiants who performed to Recreance got fed bad intel as well. Is it that Nale didn't allow anyone to reach the Fifth Ideal, or just that no one ever did?

Thank you for sharing. I must say, though I can't speak for others, I wasn't intending any discussion of your feelings toward Adolin, but rather about the readership, with a focus on this thread, was putting Adolin under an unfair expectations. Again, thank you for sharing. "Shoved" is an interesting word choice here, as it implies that (again, focused on the individuals responding in this thread). I am aware that this tactic is often used in debates, and while I don't understand what it was that I or maxal said, to prompt you to believe this was our intent , I can understand why you may have come to that conclusion, though I don't know what experiences you've had previously.

Why is your first assumption that we are using 'manipulative argumentative tactics'? Why do you simply move to dismiss our opinions instead of having an actual discussion about it? The fact that you do so is what I mean about reducing opinions. That and she actually moved to save his life, encouraged him when he nearly died as well. Adolin's journey is just beginning. Conflict will come later,as it always does with Radiants. I'm of the belief that Dalinar murdering his mother may be some role in that as well.

Seeing someone communicate a Radiantspren, that spren going beyond what a normal spren would do to try and help that person seems par for the course with what we've seen in the beginning of other Radiant's journeys.

When I say extra hoops I do not mean the bonding process. There will certainly be some extra hoops he'll have to deal with there. My issue was that what we've seen Maya and Adolin do far should be enough to confirm that they are on the path to being a Radiant, and that people seem to desire extra confirmation when this would be enough if it were any other character and spren. I can understand Maya's current status causing pause, but in light of that and what she's currently accomplished, I believe it can safely be said that this is the plot Brandon is advancing at the moment.

Maxal and I brought up some issues with how we feel Adolin is being unfairly treated by some members in this thread, or even the larger fandom. Instead of having a frank discussion about why we believe that to be the case and you don't, you use words like 'victimising' and 'cheap ploys' to lessen the legitimacy of our line of questioning. That is reducing our opinions. I see. My opinion is that this was a clear piece of foreshadowing hinting at a future plot development between Dalinar and Adolin, in terms of their relationship, perhaps leading into the revelation of Evi's death. If you don't share this opinion, I'd like to have a discussion with on the subject, if you're willing.

I don't care if people like or don't like Adolin, and I'd appreciate it if you don't try to ignore other people's opinons by reducing them to 'cheap ploys.' Why are you bringing up Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar here? They may get criticised elsewhere, but in this thread, it's Adolin that recieves the brunt of the criticism, so there's no point bringing them up in this context. Furthermore, I've never complained about Adolin receiving harsh treatment, nor would I care about that. My issue is that people are giving Adolin unfair treatment. I simply find it odd that while Adolin is doing the same thing as everyone else and their spren, people seem to go out of their way to find answers out of nowhere to negate what he is doing. In point of fact, Dalinar asks himself whether he could forgive Adolin, and tellingly, he doesn't answer the question to himself. When viewed in context, with how Dalinar has been pushing his expectations onto Adolin from the day of his birth it seems a clear sign to me that the matter is not done with. If you see differently, then that is your prerogative. I ask question because I desire answers. If I ask the same questions multiple times, it is because I have not received any answers. Please don't take it as a sign of non-engagement with what you say.

If you're going to complain of people victimising Adolin, perhaps you'd like to explain how they're doing so? Maya is communicating with and actively helping Adolin. It started before the perpendicularity so you can't use that as an excuse. If it were anyone else, would you really hesitate to say that they're bonding a spren? Why does Adolin need to jump through extra hoops? So, you think Adolin's near blind worship of his father and the resulting self-esteem issues it causes him don't show a troubled relationship then? You don't think Adolin confessing to killing Sadeas and how it shook Dalinar's view of him isn't trouble on the horizon?

I think there's plenty of story left to tell a satisfying Maya revival arc. If this were any other series or any other writer I could agree with more, but this series is huge I don't think this is a problem here. Why does everyone assume that Adolin is simply going to appear as a Radiant without the same struggles that everyone else went through to get there? Characters can have different purposes or the purpose they have can change, you know. Adolin is hardly oversimplified or perfect, though I suppose that he can appear so, compared to characters like Kaladin or Shallan.

They're more to being Radiant than being broken, you know. You have to act in a way that attracts the spren. Adolin has done so, but apparently you feels as as if all that doesn't matter when he does it, because of your bias against Adolin. Kaladin or Shallan didn't know what they did to attract spren either, which they did long before they were even broken. So you didn't notice how Adolin's messed up relationship with his dad led to his serious self-esteem issues then? Yet again, you act as if that was the only problem in Adolin's life. Family members dying violent deaths doesn't rank in your chart of suffering then? Or must he refer to it every other page for it to matter? So when you take it in context of everything that happned after, you don't see it a sign of something greater to come? And how is that comparable to a deadeyes actually communicating again? Adolin's journey to being a Radiant has not ended yet. In fact, it's barely begun. Conflict will come later, it always does. Right now, it's enough to show that he is on the right path.

How so? Problems in relationships don't simply disappear, you know. Those problems are still there, undealt with. You ca see it in the way Adolin and Dalinar think of each other. So you're comparing Maya talking and communicating to Adolin, to the Stormfather's throwaway line about a Blade Dalinar doesn't even carry anymore? Really? So why do you think Brandon went to all the trouble of showing all of these things happening to Maya then? So how do you explain away Maya saving Adolin then? When you put together everything that happened, it paint a clear picture of where Brandon is headed. You're acting as if that means he'll wake up as a Radiant one day. Every Radiant so far has had a befitting journey to get there. Why do you believe Adolin will be any different? This is a totally meaningless statement. Every Radiant has to act in a certain way to bond a spren. Did they get everything handed to them too? I like how you ignored his messed up relationship with his father, the fact that his mother and uncle were murdered and that a bunch of his friends were betrayed and killed, so as to pretend as if Adolin's problems were inconsequential. Suffering is NOT a competition. Just because one person is suffering more than someone else doesn't make the other person's problems meaningless, or that they aren't deserving of their own proportional share of compassion and understanding.

How is pointing out that certain parts of the readership treat Adolin unfairly victimizing him? Did you perhaps miss the parts where we see Dalinar trying to live vicariously through Adolin while also neglecting him, and how that shaped Adolin's self-estem issues? I admit you have a point here, about how viewpoints are used being more than the sheer number of them. And yet, I can't imagine Brandon would would spend so much time giving Adolin so many viewpoints if he was only ever going to be an observer of events. So Maya saves Adolin, gives him her name, communicates with him isn't confirmation enough? If you saw another character doing the same with a spren, would you say the same thing? Will he have to swear an Oath before you see it as confirmed? So why do you see it as Adolin getting everything handed to him? No Radiant has ever had an easy path so far, and Maya is still kinda dead, so that makes it even harder. What makes you think this will somehow be easy?

Exactly. That whole scene there was basically like Adolin's Knight Radiant interview. Just before rushing in to save that child, he thinks to himself that he needs a Radiant, and then he starts acting Radiant. He went above and beyond the call of duty there. You're just nitpicking now. You could easily say the same of Kaladin or Shallan. IMHO, we learned a lot of about why Adolin doubts himself, and how all those issues are getting magnified by the fact that he's surrounded by Radiants. There was plenty of fleshing out. It didn't have to be Adolin. We could have easily gotten more Renarin, Shallan or even Teft or the rest of Bridge Four with that time. Brandon gave us Adolin for a reason. It's not simply that he knows Maya's name, it's that she tells it to him, and that they're starting to talk, if in a rudimentary fashion. So the scene with Adolin talking with Ico about Maya or Maya saving him were just there for nothing then? We had Navani for that. Why bother with seeing a non-Radiant fight when he could have gotten Bridge Four or more Radiants unless it was for a reason? Why would it be on his mind? He doesn't even know it's possible, and even if he did, he's already convinced himself he isn't worthy of being a Radiant. We the readers, on the other hand, can see the writing on the wall. The fact that Adolin doesn't is part of his character arc. You're really determined to undersell Adolin here. Look at that scene, everyone else aside from Kaladin saw what happened and ignored it. Adolin was in unfriendly territory and yet decided to help her. The point was not that he helped because he had an opportunity, it was that he helped when everyone else ignored her, when he himself could have gone on his way with the rest of them. As a Shardbearer, Adolin was a significant part of the defense of the city. Many people would have thought that rather than risk themselves getting crushed saving one kid, the cleverer choice would be to focus on the thunderclast. It's pointless to say he wouldn't have won anyway, because while we the readers know that, Adolin was under the impression that he could make a difference against the thing the whole time, and so were the men he was with, and yet he chose to risk all to save that child, because he thought her life was at least equally important than him defending the city. Adolin wasn't swearing any Oaths, we don't need his intent to swear to them there. It's enough to know that he is doing what any Edgedancer would, as a starting point for his journey. We already heard him mention wanting to get Sadeas for the men that died earlier in the book. That desire didn't disappear because he didn't mention it during the deed itelf, nor does his desire to protect his family or his satisfaction at getting rid of the little cremling negate it either.