The Thinking Herald

Figured that. Decided to play along.

Sorry for the double post, but I couldn't edit my earlier one to include this. The truth always hurts, doesn't it? (Now, now, I'm not that kind of a person.) But, for real, you do seem to have a practice of shutting down these types of threads. One might think that you took excitement in the ability to shoot down the dreams of us newbies.

You're missing my point. Though it's highly likely that Nightwatcher is a Bondsmith spren, we don't know that for certain, (she may just be mentioned in concert with Stormfather and Sibling as the "godspren", not as Bondsmith spren, and we don't have WoB confirming her relation) and thus we can't have too much confidence in resulting theories around the nature of her bond. Besides, as already stated by RShara and others, we know that the Stormfather was slightly out of it before bonding Dalinar, so we don't need to come up with reasons for the Nightwatcher to not understand humanity. Even if she was bonded, the fading of the bond by itself would have caused her sentience to degrade, and it wouldn't be necessary for her mind to be broken by Melishi for her to not understand humanity. And as for Melishi "not understanding the consequences of breaking Connection", I never said that he didn't understand those consequences in my post. Besides, to make an assumption, perhaps Melishi was not that much of an experienced Bondsmith, like Dalinar, and thus didn't understand much of what he was doing? It seems from the in-world Stormlight Archive that the scholar Radiants had more of an idea going on about the theory of messing with the Parsh and BAM than Melishi. From the quote "It would require a special prison. And Melishi." we could easily assume that the scholars knew the theory, not Melishi, else he himself would have "written" that part of the Archive. And so, just maybe, Melishi wasn't a "master of Connection", or someone that well versed in Realmatics.

I really am forced to side with RShara shooting down theories this time. Occam's Razor says that the simplest explanation is often the best one. Whilst we Sharders often don't abide by that law, we really should in this case. From Oathbringer, we know that Melishi and Co. somehow did something to the Parsh/Voidbringers, and that whatever they did likely involved BAM in some way. They probably imprisoned her in Gavilar's gem or something, but that's a different discussion for a different time. However, what we don't know is whether or not the Nightwatcher was even a Bondsmith spren (though, don't get me wrong, it's likely), and even if we did, we don't know which spren Melishi was bonded to. What I'm saying is that the theory makes a lot of assumptions that don't need to be made, especially given the information we already have.

Well, technically if you think about it, a large percentage of the Parsh were forced to leave Roshar and go to Braize. So from a certain point of view, interbreeding could have caused total appropriation of culture.

Scene from Ardent Attorney: “And what, exactly, are these charges?” “Your Wit. Multiple counts of attempted genocide, which each time lead to millions of deaths.” “Truly horrific.” “Indeed, your Wit. However, none of this can match up to his worst crime: the enslavement of the Dawnsinger race.” The Fused watching the trial from the balcony gasped. Muffled whispers of “It was true, then. All along, what we believed were lies of the Alethi were just attempts to save us.” and other such discussion was audible to Sigzil. He smiled. His work was done. He soon wiped his grin off his face, however, when he saw what the defendant was doing. Rayse, enraged, had started emitting an aura of golden, blinding light. “I will kill you all!” Odium continued to release his Shardic energies at a tremendous rate, causing the very foundaion of the court to shake. Even the Wit’s shouts of “Order!” could but add to the deafening, ever-growing noises that enveloped the courtroom. Sigzil was panicking. Everywhere he looked, nothing anyone was doing was helping against Odium’s relentless assaults and tirades. They was, until the doors to the courtroom were flung open with a Bang! They looked towards the doorway. In the frame stood a bald figure with the robes of an ardent. The defendant, surprisingly, was trembling, whilst the Wit grew calm, almost as if recognizing the monk. “And to what is it that we owe the pleasure of your visit, lord Harmony?” “Why, Hoid, nothing less than proof of the defendant Odium’s involvemen in a conspiracy for galactic domination and enslavement of all free races.”

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine The wording's up to you. With the way I'd worded it, there's a chance that he'd RAFO the second one but "yes" the first, which would revert us back to other peoples' suggestions in the thread. With the way you've worded it, he may just RAFO both. Up to you, though. As you said, the dangers of attempting to predict the future are many, with the possible branches spewing out in a mess of failures and successes. P.S. Please specify that the question refers to only the Parshmen=Voidbringer Desolations, and does not include the Desolations where the Humans=Voidbringers.

Were there less than 20 Desolations? And if so, is this one, the True Desolation, the 16th? @hoiditthroughthegrapevine Please, I need validation for my modified version of Bort’s The Unmade Are Heralds theory. And if we get a RAFO, please comment on the tone with which he said it. Of course, if he asks something like “What makes you think that?”, feel free to cite the thread as appropriate.

Slightly off topic, but an updated version for the Ugandan Knuckles. Amaram (about to kill the leader of his own country who is also basically a demigod, spitting foam and with red corrupted-investiture eyes, possessed by an demon): “I kNOw tHE WaY.” Edit: On-topic: Amaram is deluded. I will elaborate when I have a computer.

Thanks.

Uh, sorry about this. I know that there was a post by Mestiv about this a couple years back. However, 1. I didn't really understand the steps laid out by Mestiv, and 2. I'm not sure if there have been any updates to the system. So, could anyone who knows how to work the site explain in simple English, and limited technical language, the steps to building a table inside of a post? I need it to write up a theory connecting the Unmade and Ten Fools via the Heralds.

Shameless self-plug, I know. But http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/64714-ob-the-unmade-are-heralds/#comment-665263 has stuff on it that could save that theory. Anyway, the reply to the actual theory. I think tis' theory has become headcanon in many people's minds as of late. No need to say that I think it's accurate.

Has to be Shardhammer for me. Imagine being like a certain Baratheon from ASOIAF and completely whammying through enemy forces with a hammer, except that this one can be sharp as well! And you wouldn't even need a fancy mould and cast for it.

There was a thread about this a while back, discussing things similar to this, ie. what made our Radiants special. It wasn't in as much detail as your post, however, and could do with a good necro and update based on your ideas. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/64496-ob-the-five-pillars-of-the-stormlight-main-characters/#comment-662883

According to Reddit's Oathbringer updates from a little over a year ago (I think this is right, anyone correct me if it was WoB or AMAs that provided this info) there was a lot of story that Brandon had to cut from Oathbringer, since it was getting too long and Tor wasn't sure they could publish the paperback. The novels did get progressively longer as he wrote them (I think it was a 50% jump from WoK), so he probably had to cut some of his style and more purple-leaning prose for the sake of the plot. While I say this, however, I do know what you feel. I myself only started SA this year, and it seemed slightly off and lacklustre to me. While I agree with you that this could have also have been from series-fatigue, I think that, looking back on the two main (to me) fiction stories of 2017 (Oathbringer and the Last Jedi) (no spoilers), they had, I suppose, a similar issue. That being with the pacing being slightly inconsistent. In several plotlines, the pacing of the plot in both seemed fast and had me on the edge of my seat, waiting to find out what happened next. In others, however, I didn't really care what happened and wanted to get back to the "good" plotlines. In the end, for me, it's a combination of Brandon having to have cut prose from the novel, series-fatigue, and slightly wonky pacing that dragged down Oathbringer ever so slightly for me. Just my two cents. P.S. Go finish the book! It gets real good.

I like this theory. If this was somehow proven true, it’d flesh out more backstory about the characters involved (Elhokar, Roshone, Aesudan, Moash, and Kaladin) as well as hint to a larger background (Gavilar, Sadeas, and Dalinar, as mentioned by hypatia) behind the Roshone Affair. However, I can’t help but agree with Patrick Star. Most of the people involved in the Affair are dead or no longer of much relevance to the main plot. Elhokar is dead. Aesudan is dead. Gavilar is dead. Sadeas is dead. Roshone isn't likely to have that much of an effect on the future plot. Dalinar's past it, and Kaladin is past it. If this theory were to be validated in a future novel, it would likely only take away from the events occurring in that novel's plot. And as Patrick said, the theory isn't even that necessary. It'd only add unnecessary information to those characters' backstories, while said backstories are already complete. We don't really need to know this information. We don't need to know if Elhokar was a better person than currently portrayed; We don't need to know if Roshone has the potential for good in him (well this one maybe); We certainly don't need more information portraying Aesudan as more of a scumbag. If this theory ended up being validated, the only two things I could see it doing would be: 1. Provide Roshone with a potential for a bigger "redemption" arc, which we don't really need to see happen unless that other theory about Roshone=Kalak is validated, which I don't see happening. This potential plotline would, overall, bog down the novels and add even more pages to an already-doorstopper sized novel, or worse yet, subtract from the main character plotlines. And, even if you want to see Roshone get a redemption arc, I'm sure that he'll at least have a bit more interaction with Kaladin in the future that would force his character to a similar result. 2. Provide a path for Moash to change. If this theory were validated, Moash may have a reason to rebel against Odium and the Fused, if they were influencing Aesudan at that point to get his family killed. This would lead to his potential redemption arc. Again, I don't really see this happening, though it's slightly more possible as far as future plotlines go than 1. Why shouldn't this happen, though? Well, first, it'd be a waste of page space. Vyre is already poised to become Odium's Champion, and if this plotline were to be introduced, we'd have to spend more time looking for Odium's Champ. While there exists the potential for other characters (Adolin, maybe?) to become the Champ, I think that the lines of the war (not the lines of good and evil) are already pretty well drawn out, and this plot would add more confusion over something that needn't be confused more at this point. Secondly, while I feel that everyone, even fictional characters, deserve to earn their own redemption, I also feel that Vyre is too far gone. He killed his king, one of his demi-gods, and allowed himself to get pretty much possessed by an alien spirit. At this point, a redemption arc for him would feel contrived. In the end, I feel that the theory is well thought out, and could possibly be true (I wish it was), but that it and it's ramifications will probably never be explored in the series for plot tightness and convenience. It'd just bog down the plot of a future novel, and for purposes (Roshone and Moash redemption arcs) that don't really need to be fulfilled.

Personally, I like to think that based on what we know about other orders (skybreakers in particular) and their oaths, this may be a sign that Dalinar actually swore several oaths in succession, ending with the last oath of the bondsmiths, that being “I am Unity” to parallel a skybreaker’s oath, which based off of the info in OB would be “I am Law”. Also, we have indications from Nale that something is wrong with the KR due to Honor’s disappearance, so that could explain how Dalinar went OP so quickly and had no checks on his ability to run through the oaths at once. Of course, there are other theories like how Dalinar may become the neo-Adonalsium, but this is just my two cents. If there are WoBs disproving this, feel free to reply and inform me.

This is mainly in response to The One Who Connect's reply about there being more than nine desolations, and could solve the mysteries about sapience, etc.... What I'll posit here is that there were more than nine desolations, and this is directly related to the multiple sections of each unmade's name and their sentience. It is known that: 1. There were more than 9 desolations. 2. There are 9 unmade. 3. There are 10 heralds that were tortured in the interim between each desolation. OP posits that: 1. Each breaking corresponded to a new unmade ( there's a slight problem with this, due to point 1 in the above section) 2. Each unmade corresponds to one herald, except for Taln, but that's because Taln is the man and never broke until now (Which raises the idea that there should be a new unmade now, but I'll get to that) This theory, while not currently backed up with too much solid evidence, could still work. What I'll suggest is that each new breaking of a previously broken herald gave the corresponding unmade a new "piece" of them, adding to their sentience level and the number of name-sections of that unmade (Under this logic, Ishar was the weakest-minded of the heralds and broke thrice, hence the unmade "Ba-Ado-Mishram" corresponding to him.) We can use this to calculate what is possibly the actual number of desolations that there were. Using the herald-unmade connections provided by Rainier (His reasons for these connections being provided in his reply): Ishar corresponds to Ba-Ado-Mishram. He was the weakest and broke thrice, instigating three desolations and giving an unmade a level 3 sentience. Vedel corresponds to Re-Shephir. She broke twice, started two desolations and gave Odium two units of sentience to make a level 2 unmade. Shalash corresponds to Sja-anat. Broke twice, kickstarted two apocalypses, creating a level 2 sentient unmade. Battar corresponds to Dai-gonarthis (Or an unknown unmade, but we're just going with it). Broke 2 times, started two desolations, gave away 2 units of sentience. Kalak corresponds to Yelig-nar. A "willshaper"'s will broke twice and he made a level two unmade, starting two desolations. Jezrien corresponds to Nergaoul. Credit where credit is due, the Herald King broke only once, giving an unmade a level 1 sentience and starting only one desolation. Nale corresponds to Ashertmarnn. THE LAW broke once, starting one desolation, and giving a level 1 sentience to an unmade. Chanarach corresponds to Chemoarish. One breaking, one desolation, and a level 1 sentience unmade. Pailiah corresponds to Moelach. Again, one breaking, one desolation, and a new level 1 unmade for Odium to play with.SThe Last, but by no means least, Taln the Man. He broke only after 4500 years of torture, and under my theory, created a new mystery unmade (Which I like to think is the Everstorm itself) According to the statistics provided, there would have been 15 desolations, excluding the Final Desolation. TL;DR: I'm doing whatever I can to save this theory and coming up with unconfirmed statistics. Feel free to tear my reply to shreds.