Salmon Meerkat

@Fifth Scholar, @Elbereth - actually can we get a clarification on whether smokers can send in an order every turn or not? i realise the implication of the off on night turn on on day turn ruling is that u can send in an order any turn as far as i can recall standard tyrian only allows smokers to act at night - hence the cooldown problem and a rabidly anti-smoking village but standard tyrian is already problematic b/c the game began on a night turn hence the actions skew and the smokers problem if smokers can only first switch off during n1 if smokers can switch on in the day and off at night then smokers should absolutely do that >edit - @fifth @el - if smokers can act in the day, can we also get an ooa including vm and the lynch and and u know what can we get a night ooa pls just to be clear b/c i don't want to assume xD >editedit > sorry i haz more qns - the clarification wording talks about activation: is activation the same as deactivating copperclouds wrt to the two possible actions for a smoker: deactivating coppercloud + extending it?

smoking lasts for two consecutive turns unless u turn it off on a night turn and on again on a day turn village smokers could do that and that would be smart imo - but that being said we started this game on a day turn rather than the usual night and historically this assumption just doesn't bear up players have been v reluctant to smoke even in the day and smokers have typically caught flak (hi) for doing so the preference usually just is to lock cloud off >edit i suspect there is an element of 'so i don't forget' about it b/c smokers default start with cloud on

at least two vote manips agreed parsimony requires us to not postulate more unless we think there is reason we have been mistaken to retype what oct said + add my own thoughts on possibilities: 2 soothers 1 soother & 1 rioter who hit smoked 2 rioters who hit smoked 2 rioters who hit same target 2 rioters who did not read the rules and tried to riot from no vote to a vote anything else requires postulation of more vote manips which ok not impossible but i'd rather not get rube goldberg rn if no reason 4 it hitting smoked is interesting b/c village meta in tyrian has historically been v v v rabidly anti-smoking think likelihood is small unless smoker misread rules and didn't realise coppercloud had to go off which in turn implies either the smoked targets are likely hostiles (ur elim smoker may not want to burn night action on extending coppercloud) and/or the elims knew this and were happy to just have the vote disappear by hitting the known teammate with coppercloud this though would entail that we have another smoker-rioter combination on elim team which as scorp pointed out (to give credit where credit is due) seems moderately unlikely they would be given >edit did not read rules-itis seems to be impossible as gms have said they will warn if player tries to take invalid action + vote would not be lost therefore: 2 soothers 1 soother & 1 rioter who hit smoked 2 rioters who hit smoked 2 rioters who hit same target

that is interesting vote manip on two trains i think? need to work through the interactions rip crocodile but ur still not getting my salmon

i look forward to eating my words & hearing ur voice more, falcon =) i very much appreciate ur recent posts

it is interesting to me that neither gorilla nor crocodile have thus far self-presed i expect to see self-pres kick in soon i am not sure if my distrust of crocodile comes from the train solicitation as that really didn't sit well with me as it stands i don't feel very invested in saving either gorilla or crocodile the move off cham is interesting because i am more pessimistic than crocodile — one way cham could be an elim is if another elim were voting on cham, which possibly lightly commits me to evil croc if i think cham is also evil i take scorp's point and one reason i looked at the other trains is i do wonder if the seeming lack of investment on cham was due to the use of splinter train tactics which as scorp points out would blend nicely in with the village i am pleased to hear more from some of our more quiet players thanks be to Warmmha

ok so dingo was on my 'lol performative idc if u die' list but i need to re-evaluate the situation as i see that there has been two pages two mcfreakin' pages since i gave up and let the painkillers take me to the land of slumber and out of paranoia spirals i am also in principle suspicious when people ask me to start a new train i am not especially invested in saving the existing trains so then i have to ask why is there an ulterior motive and so on which brings me to the question of do i trust u which is perhaps the nature of the beast in this game where ur bros betray u all the time then they are not ur bros anymore i think if i am to be fair this would indicate i am not so suspicious of dingo speaking from the end point the point i gave up on paranoia spiralling and went to sleep that i would trust u and vote with u on dingo and that u do is by the nature of vote solicitation alone something that inspires reflexive distrust which in my view fits with the fact my last read had dingo as trying to stay under the radar by contributing once and saying as far as i can assess nothing of note (but this situation has changed and thus i have two threads to take in) im going to say this is a potayto/potahto difference in essence i think CC requires a specific set of circumstances to work n people are not always careful about those circumstances n when they are not i do think it is suspicious and yes this does commit me to the view CC for sake of CC bad this is a fair point i felt that there was little 'energy' or 'investment' in stopping the cham train but u r right it could be a team profile thing i need to have a think i'm going to be very honest that i probably cannot make a decision in time for rollover as duty calls and i must answer and i don't think i have the time to read and properly catch up but i will make a try of it farewell all

ok but why not follow through? hyena was not in danger. it was early in the cycle. on that line of reasoning there is absolutely nothing to lose voting hyena if as u propose they are e/e unless u are e too. if we suppose swan wanted to appear to be solving the game n u propose swan didn't want to follow through, what would've stopped swan from following through? what is the opportunity cost? y wouldn't evil swan do so? swan hyena could be e/v but then there is no difference anyway: swan would then be indifferent between hyena and anyone else. >edit i'll be honest i think u r set against swan n i'm not trying to convince u b/c i don't think it's going to happen at this stage i m trying to convince myself or see if anyone has a better take b/c a decent chunk of this scenario doesn't make sense to me and i want to get a solid read of what is going on with ur train and with swan the more i read the thread the more i have a negative gut read of u and swan both so that's another problem for me as i feel u both are hyperdefensive which tends to occur more with elims

i think my stumbling block and what i am struggling to follow here is that they don't always invariably end up doing so with faulty reasoning - sometimes villagers will really look v bad and i have had very bad games where i honestly wouldn't blame village for mislynching me b/c i misplayed and misread everything i feel like an elim directing a lynch on me in such a game would be using good reasoning - it would just be GIGO but i think the real point im struggling with is it just feels very contrived or counterproductive and requires swan to have what is to me a v. weird calculus as an elim - why not take it on the chin? y not just go for hyena? y hesitate? it's bad reasoning but i don't see how an elim benefits from this bad reasoning process so y would elim swan do this my even bigger problem is my main answer to a scenario in which evil swan hesitates to go after evil hyena also has u being evil b/c suppose u r village - e swan voting e hyena is great, it's distancing n u die or u lead the lynch and the heat will go to everyone on the mislynch, myself included what does evil swan gain by refusing to go on hyena? evil swan had said they distrusted hyena, they vote evil hyena, they gain distance, u get fire, it's a good scenario 4 the elims again and again i come back to the conclusion that the main way it makes sense 2 me is if u r evil so swan doesn't have good options n idk how committed i m to u, swan, hyena all being e together >edit at risk of further chaos - Gorilla, Hyena im interested in y u feel the need to call attention to the fact u began ur readslist prior to the game starting

pls stop celebrating i m not sure i trust u i said w/ salt this just removes the main reason i had to distrust u but then u return to a default state of squint-eyed distrust

hmm. ok, u know what i buy that w/ some salt. i think this is a more significant point later in the game when u have a more firmed up reads list and r forced to find suspicious players sus but also don't want to vote them - that's what found us Heron in Steel's LG when Elan (of all people!) pointed out Heron consistently claimed Tuatara was sus but refused to vote on Tuatara but i m not sure it is of necessity damning early on b/c u have no reason for reluctance as e/e with hyena hyena is not under significant pressure - i grant 1 existing vote (at that time thanks to Penguin) but Cham was leading @ 3 votes so going hyena would not necessarily have been a big deal + u could always pull off later anyway people do that plus the situation can be so mutable i guess one scenario i could see u all being boxed in are if u-cham-hyena are all elim but...idk how much weight i'd put on that yes - but i feel this is ... a strange take b/c a lot of players will mislynch at least once in the game despite being a villager and that sort of badness is fairly ok esp early on in the game basically most elims don't feel the need to explicitly say they r going for the nulls as a way to deflect attention so y would elim swan feel the need to do that i'll be honest this is probably gonna make me chunk swan back into my nulls out of sheer force of indecision but after some thought i am just not feeling the force of the existing arguments as strongly as i was - i don't think this is a good parallel to the Elan & Heron case

yes n no its been discussed to death yes but im just gonna rehash very briefly my view/position ig -CC bad. CC only works if u give sufficient runway because genuine inactives dgaf - runway matters b/c u hope to bait teammates into defending inactive teammates but is a gamble otherwise CC bad b/c sucks up bandwidth + no pressure on live/extant teammates, easy way for people to appear productive/hide -feels like my views on this have been shaped by the past (yes) but also more recent experiences of high inactivity elim teams/high passivity elim teams e.g. LG73 (? - Sart's game i forget the number) where u just have to go get a stick n poke or u will lynch all the actives n not find anyone -keep lynch options broadly open + apply pressure broadly, early on is not the time to consolidate trains - i think we've done this to death by now we have a lovely array of lynch options and i would like 2 see more commitment/response/investment ig -i don't know if i mean peripherals in the same sense u do. i think that true inactives will be washed out by the filter + we will see the difference due to an existing filter, so if someone is obviously filter dodging, this could be a bad sign. but i do think there are lower activity elims, im not having an easy time sifting through the high activity stuff as i do have bad gut but i also understand some explanations or are at least moderately sympathetic to them e.g. im really not thrilled by swan's not voting top suspicion thing and my gut dislikes it the more i look at it and i also feel it weird beagle got @ for what seems like an ok point & i get that this has just hit the solid 'do u buy it or not' stage but at the same time i have gotten @ many times for being indecisive n im just fundamentally at core a doubter as a person/player its how i roll so i get being indecisive and torn so...idk. i really dk and i suppose this means i too are feeling the pull in two directions -but really my point is more about the blending elims - not necessarily lower activity but below radar/attention dodging. who doesn't want to say risky things. who is trying to project i am helpful villager hear me roar without doing anything too noisy. i would argue zebra hasn't been low activity as i understand it but zebra has been avoiding attention. -tbh my shift off cham is partly b/c my gut read of the low temperature is that no elim is under threat and i feel as though if that is true that cham is no elim then best place for elims to be is elsewhere but also b/c i think we know from the CC point above we have to flush elims n sometimes its more helpful to try to flush people blending in / being performative & see who shows up to defend them /shrug

Yeah - I think I'm largely influenced by how high-temperature an Elim phish is, compared to a standard role phish. I'm ok with my light reads for now since there's a lot of players to narrow down but have to commit - probably by D2, or when I'm not waiting to take stronger painkillers - to a deeper dive (but vote analysis will help that.) I'm not comfortable at all with raw effort clearing especially without knowing player meta to balance against that and de facto CC is the worst sort of place to end up.

I've been mentioning my Scorp thoughts to a bunch of PM partners and I think I just want to throw it into the thread so my line of thought is at least a matter of public record and probably can get @ if there are holes in it. Partly because Vulture's longpost also made me realise I have been a bit too circumspect on it. Long story short, I got a PM from Scorp sometime after the joking roleclaim exchanges suggesting I was an Elim Soother or Elim Smoker. My light Village read of Scorp is basically based off the thought that it's an oddly specific sort of way to phish and that phishing must in part be the intention - an Elim has no real reason to jokingly send that sort of PM, and an Elim would anyway be more interested in my role than in what would be a Villager reaction to being alignment-phished. A Villager on the other hand who is feeling particularly spicy might be more interested in eliciting an alignment phish reaction. That being said, when I said as much to Scorp, Scorp half took it back, which is a confusing sort of response as I'd expect a Villager to generally be pretty cool with getting lightly Village read but I can't for the life of me see it being an Elim response either, so I'm just shrugging and marking that as a light Villager with asterisk read. Me, reading: "ok bro but what's ur vote" >rereads top "Oh. Oh, whoops sorry." I'd like to say lean Village read but I also know better than to effort-clear you for your playstyle.....sigh............

Unfortunately, Kel is currently incapacitated with a killer headache but not to fear, rambling stream-of-consciousness punctuationless lowercase services will resume shortly, probably whenever he gets access to stronger painkillers. I don't have the energy or the bandwidth to redo a count so I am just going to take this count as a given. I said I'd say more about Cham later. I was hoping to wait until more people got in but the killer headache and throwing up has more or less forced my hand. I'm not sure this is usual for a D1 - it's not unusual either. We have numerous single-player votes, and the Cham train. What to say about the Cham train? I deliberately went back on Cham to see what would happen and take the temperature of the responses. I feel that there hasn't been very much response. This may not be especially damning if the Elims do have a player on Cham, or vote manip, but would seem also lightly suggestive that the Elims aren't particularly invested in whether Cham lives or dies. On the assumption that Cham is Evil, where are our Elims? I feel as though we are lightly committed to an Elim being on Cham or a vote manipulator in their pocket. Even then, recall that Smokers start the game with their Copperclouds up. You have to send in an order to deactivate it. Vote manip is a bit of a gamble in that light - though not overmuch, as inactives aren't exactly going to be voting, just as they are not going to be turning off their Copperclouds. The first possibility involves an Elim going off Cham and forcing a tie. It would, however, draw attention to Cham but perhaps our hypothetical Elim team has hoped that enough players have expressed misgivings that the Village can be talked into doing that on their own. What happens if we assume Cham is Village? Again, I think we have a light commitment to at least one of the voters on Cham being Evil, but the rest are either distributed among the other vote trains or apparently inactive. I'm going to go into a brief aside. Please bear with me Suppose you are an Elim in a Tyrian Falls game. Which Village roles are going to send you curled up in a fetal ball? I assert: a Village Seeker and a Village Coinshot. Fog-of-war is just as real for the Elim team as it is for the Village, and Tyrian Seekers are exceptionally strong because they scan both roles and alignment. The Elim team starts the game with some weak idea of the Village distro, largely because they know the roles of their teammates. But that doesn't rule out the Elim team being tricked by a troll GM. By and large, because Village Seekers and Coinshots threaten to have outsize effects on an Elim team, an Elim team's strategic priorities in a Tyrian game are largely consistent: they want to find and neutralise both Seeker and Coinshot. Barring a troll GM distribution, it is highly likely and consistent in most Tyrian games that the Elim team will begin with at least one (typically two) Smokers. I know El and Fifth had previously one distribution where there was no Smoker at all (I believe this might have been a distro Kas ran but cannot be sure - if not it was closely-related to it; IIRC Kas promoted one regular to a Smoker at Wyrm's urging.) The problem from a GMing perspective is that while you can troll and unnerve an Elim team by not giving them a Smoker at all, you run the risk of the Elim team cottoning on to a key secret: there is no Village Smoker. I can't say whether that's at work here or not. My point is that it's highly likely the Elim team has at least one Smoker. We know this can't be too troll a distribution like an all-vanilla or all-Smoker game: the fact we have PMs suggests at least one Mistborn with Tin or a Tineye, alignment unknown. If the PMs remain stable into the Night, then we know it's likely a Tineye, or a second Mistborn who drew Tin, because Mistborn reroll powers at Night.) With all of this established - suppose, for the sake of argument, you are an Elim team with one or two Smokers. You begin the game not knowing if there is a Village Seeker, or a Village Coinshot, or a Village Mistborn who drew Steel. (I don't want to get into the logistics of how the GMs randomise for metals under Tyrian rules right now.) What is the strategy you employ? Yes, of course, taking down Lurchers and Seekers are priorities for you - Thugs are to be avoided, and Coinshots suborned, used to help you kill to parity, or just dealt with so you don't lose teammates. How does your team play, then? You will always have fewer protects and Smokes than you do team members. How do you allocate your resources to reduce your team's risk exposure? You Smoke the active, high-attention thread control Elim players, and the rest of your team, those who can't be Smoked, especially, and who it would be strange to discover having been Smoked (by Village vote manip, for instance - another complex meta discussion here but Tyrian Villages generally regard with suspicion anyone who is Smoked) try to keep a low profile. So in the AG, Claincy as the lynchpin control Elim was Smoked, Wilson Smoked Wyrm N1 in AG3 working under the assumption they both drew enough threat attention they were likely to get Seeked early on (previous Tyrians began on a Night) and suggested their other Smoker Smoke Nyali if he came on, and I don't remember who the Elim team Smoked in AG2 but AG2 was weird for many reasons including an Elim team that slid under the radar as the returning players tore each other's throats out. This isn't a problem we have to deal with here because fortunately we are an Anonymous Game (some of us try, and the trying is important ok?) So let's get back to the problem. Who do you Smoke, with your limited resources? A. You could try Smoking noisy Villagers, in the hopes that the Seeker will waste a Seek on them or they will potentially be mislynched. This isn't impossible: it does presume your team isn't already attracting a lot of attention. Claincy pioneered 'offensive Smoking', using it against Wilson in the AG, as Wilson was one of two Village hubs for information. But Claincy's team - with the exception of Claincy - were generally low profile, and that team had a decent risk appetite. So on the assumption we see offensive Smoking, if we assume that the general Smokers < team size rule holds true in this game, we should start looking at players with a decent risk appetite, and low profile players. Note that by midgame or endgame, as the Elim team accumulates more info or start to push, they are likely to have a better risk appetite. In AG3, Wilson did offensively Smoke other players like Jon as well. But in the early game with heavy fog-of-war, this isn't so likely a play. B. You Smoke your prominent, noisy players, the ones most likely to draw attention, because being caught Smoked is marginally better than being caught Evil, and you always have the offensive Smoking or "IDEK man" excuse. By and large, most teams go for this option. If they have spare Smoking resources, e.g. the rest of the team is quiet, and/or they have a better risk appetite, they can try to Smoke offensively, or cover the more valuable roles on their team. What do you do against Coinshots? You try to direct suspicion elsewhere, you try to ID the Coinshots, you try to control their kill, and you use Lurching or Thug resources if your team has them. In both cases, we have the apparently banal conclusion that an Elim team will comprise a mix of noisy thread control players and quiet players who aim to be unremarkable or slip under the radar (note that these are two different quiet player profiles.) Keep in mind that this game has a two-cycle then filter or pinch-hitter inactivity policy, determined by posts in thread. This means that consistent inactivity is not going to be possible - Elims aiming to be unremarkable will blend into the crowd, failing which, they will just barely dodge the filter. (They could also pull the 'always a bigger fish' strategy but that's a variation of blending in, in my view,) Let's look again at the votes. Suppose I'm not sold on the Cham vote - suppose I am starting to doubt an Elim team would be so quiet about Cham. Suppose, furthermore, as I'm not very good at reading players, that I don't have a strong view on who might be Evil among the noisy ones. Where are our under-the-radar Elims hiding? Nice, safe, side-trains with a pretext of activity. Alternatively, we have the possibility of players like Azure Mouse, who are logging in and viewing the thread but saying nothing and therefore, not attracting much attention. I like ties, and I think there's enough time to force a certain amount of commitment from other players. Of this group, I'd argue that Penguin and Swan and possibly Hyena aren't too much in the fade-to-grey category, and I've already explained that I'm not very keen on voting for Vulture this Day for reasons of sentiment. I think players like Zebra, Dingo, Lion, Falcon, and Gorilla are largely in that category, which is a reason a number of them ended on my suspicions list. They've done enough to be present but haven't left very much of an imprint on most discussion. I have a slightly stronger negative gut against Zebra and Lion, but as I want the tie, I'm going to vote for Turquoise Gorilla and join Violet Axlotl. I'm not really going to say you live, Pearl Chameleon, as I think you should be tied by this current count, but there you go If someone wants to join me on Zebra or Lion, I am amenable to switching. I do think this analysis has implications for where the Coinshots (if any) should go, who the Seekers should check, and what vote manips should do, but I will in general say there are as always layers and IKYKs and leave it at that. Now excuse me as I need to worship the floor again.

truly the gaze of the crocodile is wondrous piercing the boundary between docs my current reads: not terribly detailed and anyone with a ! i have not seen and consider a warm body (cold if they don't show up ig) * is negotiable i don't have strong elim reads for now but that's not unusual for me criteria for light village read has generally been very loose from anything like feels like genuinely engaged with game and problem-solving to basic village credit for trying to do reads (this is defeasible because we know elims will do reads too but this is my current classification principle) elim reads at this point go to largely those i consider perfunctory cham is an interesting case m0re on cham later that being said i have generally had a negative read of warm bodies due to suspicions they are trying to slide under the radar / performativity (v sure there will be some performative reads lists too but gonna file that as a 'next day problem' if i get there ) sufficient unto today are the evils of today as Warmmha would say

oh yeah u know what im not gonna agitate for better working conditions 4 u u profiteer u were my bro i trusted u fifth smhmh may Warmmha turn His face from u ok no u don't deserve that everyone deserves the radiant gaze of God

if he is on strike this mean el is not paying him or possibly wilson in which case the only ethical course of action is to call for a revolution against the tyranny of el-wilson in order to ensure comrade Fifth is paid well so he may provide his sarcastic commentary to everyone ANIMALS OF TYRIAN FALLS UNITE!!!!!!! WE HAVE BUT OUR CHAINS TO LOSE@!@@@@@@@@@@!!!!!!!!!!!

GET YOUR OWN SALMON HANDS OFF MY SALMON r u even paid bro where is my sarcastic commentary i didn't get any neither sir i would like to file a complaint

ja rule jawohl

thinking about it but am currently leaning no because i consider the asking itself NAI as some players genuinely have a high info playstyle my main reason for bringing it up is that getting the pms as a player who doesn't really do pms and hasn't been engaged with that aspect of the game suggested to me this would be happening on a larger scale or to other players and i felt there has been reason historically to be concerned about opsec in this game esp tyrian although i guess u could say realistically it probably is a lost cause im open to being to being persuaded otherwise i will then proceed to contradict myself only to note that Amethyst Scorpion did try to phish but later on and in a way that gives me a light D1 village read but very light so i guess that nevertheless means im not down to lynch them today i am also removing my vote from Amber Vulture for the shameless reason their post reminds me very strongly of someone and if it truly is that person i don't want to see them dead immediately so congrats i guess because if ur not him u have succeeded in drawing on my goodwill towards that person though i guess that's the point of this game i am going to reinaugurate the Pearl Chameleon train for now but it is possible i may just end up talking myself off it (patji) and onto a disengaged player because i have learned that u should not se on low sleep bad things happen

it would be terrifying b/c it means im playing this game wrong + misreading things and i feel like certain...individuals in the playerbase who have their eye on this game will never let me live this down now, if u were elim seeker this would be one hell of a no u reverse uno el r u laughing fifth r u not entertained is this not why we are here u will i hope forgive me if i decline to participate for now in fakeclaiming shenanigans im just sensitive to these things i blame w- i blame adverse formative early life circumstances aww nah i lied i'm a 15 did u not mean rollclaim i thought we were playing liar's dice have i signed up for the wrong game gentleanimals oh shoot i think im in the wrong place entirely help me too sule me too

think u mean iguana bro eh i don't think that's a bad strat fundamentally holdouts are going to be faced with a tragedy of the commons problem - if everyone is claiming but u u can be sure ur gonna get seeked by an elim (if they have a seeker) or probably hit by a kill because they wonder if ur holding out b/c u have something good as a role (happened before), in which case the better strat is to fakeclaim and just sow confusion the problem of course is confusion cuts both ways but also really the best route depends on what everyone else is doing but that's not something u necessarily have sight of at the point u r deciding whether to fakeclaim or not

bro i know dis not u and is ostrich but ostrich point of order el and fifth don't always run tyrian falls games either with the exception of AG6 (my bad it wasn't AG5) - tyrian falls meta is largely dominated by meta and tyrian falls was basically his baby (LG1, AG-AG3) the point about mixing it up is correct but saying that we don't have info now (my view also) =/= we cannot at some future point make an informed guess about distro b/c we can as more info rolls in. the gming doctrine is more or less consistent esp because we have past experience of balance interactions in tyrian falls games i feel like this statement is supremely ironic because el and fifth created the distro for the previous game you reference i don't really know why i am fighting people on it because it doesn't matter and i've said ad nauseum i'm not interested in raw speculation without gameplay feedback to inform it which we currently lack save the reasonable inference at least one tineye or mistborn with tin exists but i am quite disturbed by the number of people who don't want to give el and fifth credit for the work they did because the lg74 gm sure didn't do any and i firmly believe that people should get credit for their hard work and el and fifth made many distros so yeah, too bad ig i'm just gonna fight everyone who keeps saying it's different because yes, of course it is, and we shouldn't expect them to use the same distro, we can expect somewhat consistent gming doctrine in terms of balance, but it's not like a wildly different person did the distro. it was el and fifth. stop icing them out of credit for their work. >edit: i was gonna say this when mentioning that we know there's at least one tineye but it slipped my mind so i'm gonna say it right now but can we please be damned careful with the roleclaiming? already i've had rolephishing attempts in pms. i'll grant they may or may not be benign but keep in mind that elims will seek to take out village power roles asap. if u give ur role unwisely, every innocent-seeming swap u make is another person the elims can cross off the list and say 'ok seeker not here' we don't need to make their job easier for them esp. if they don't have a seeker ok?

the only answer to an or question is always yes any reason why seekers are completely absent from ur spiked power ranking >edit indeed may Warmmha forgive me for i blame myself