crème de la crèmling

I'm not quite sure which way you mean; like, is "investiture based madness" manifesting to random degrees of severity, or are the symptoms of it (compulsion to destroy depictions of yourself, etc) random? I suppose the answer to both is no. Right now, what I'm thinking is that the more choices that the Heralds (and the Fused) make that try to change their own personal identities from what they were when they became Cognitive Shadows is what affects them. I tend to interpret it as the mind/soul is trying to change, and the power is punishing that so that it can keep doing what it was made to do, the way it was made to do it. The more the mind changes, the more the power pushes back. Of course, now that I'm really going through the Heralds, it does seem like the ones who engaged the most to prevent the return of Odium and the Fused in some way without using the Oathpact as it was initially constructed suffered the most. Ash and Kalak, who are trying to ignore it as best they can, don't seem nearly so bad off at the moment, but it's impossible to see just yet what they were like in the past. I think that still might hold if it wasn't the Intent of the Investiture but the perceptions people have of them, as you suggest? People's expectations, holding them in place? But I feel like Ash is the only Herald who expresses dismay over others' perceptions of her and the other Heralds. I just think there's something inherently damaging about holding to an oath forever, and using magic to cement it just seems like a decision that would have consequences. Most of my thought process has a lot to do with this exchange:

I've been dwelling on this for a few days now and putting my thoughts together on it, but I personally tend to believe it's something along the lines of "4. Spiritweb impact of actually abandoning the oathpact." When the Stormfather describes the way that they put together the Oathpact, he phrases it like they died, Honor Invested them, and became Cognitive Shadows, and that first time was meant to be forever. RoW has a bunch of arcs dedicated to showing that nothing lasts, and why that's actually a good thing; Bridge Four, like the Heralds, is a "legendary team that has already faded into memory" or something to that effect. But even though Bridge Four was formed to survive a terrible circumstance, absolutely nobody, not even Kaladin, believed that would work forever. Something else had to be done to save them. The dissolution of Bridge Four is also framed as a good thing: now the members of it can go and live their own lives. Kaladin himself has an arc in RoW on why he can't live forever as Highmarshal Stormblessed; mentally, it is too much of a toll on him and he's gradually breaking. His conversation with Wit on Braize, "there will be sunshine again" highlights the necessity of change in maintaining his mental health; even earlier in the series, in WoR, Wit and Shallan have the conversation about how beauty would be the pain of existence changing from day to day. And back in RoW, there's lots to do with Investiture and Intent, and how Investiture can be given Intent, etc. Zahel even explains Cognitive Shadows on the page. I tend to think these days that perhaps Cognitive Shadows, like spren, have an Intent baked in to their creation, and that the Intent of the Heralds was to bear the burden of the Oathpact together. I think they probably believed that being able to share the pain would be enough, but obviously it was not, and maybe never could have been. It's an interesting take on the "failing seal placed on the ancient evil's prison" trope, in my opinion. It would add some level of grand tragedy to the Heralds' existence as well. This interpretation would mean that setting down the Oathpact is going against their Intent, which is said to have some sort of consequence. (In Taln's case, I argue that holding it up alone would still be going against his Intent, if the burden was intended to be shared, and so he would therefore still manifest some kind of magical insanity.) When the Desolation begins, and they make enough progress that the Radiants will be able to win the day, they're supposed to die and head back together--literally, they need to choose death, until, eventually, the pain becomes too much and they eventually choose life, which is being reborn on Roshar to fight again. I feel like this is mappable to Pattern's assertion in WoR that "spren change in the same ways, over and over." They can't seem to break out of that cycle. The reversal of their attributes might actually fit with this idea of going against an Intent that Honor gave them. The degree of their madness might vary based on the level of how very much against their Intent they are going? Ash, for example, put down the Oathpact, but her madness amounts to a compulsion to destroy depictions of herself. She doesn't descend into Ishar's or Nale's levels because perhaps her Intent is to remain honest in some way, and by acknowledging that she's doing something wrong, she retains a bit more of her sanity. Ishar, however, totally believes that he's sole bearer of the Oathpact, and that he's fighting against Odium's false Radiants ... Nale seems to be reliving some of the things he did in the past, too--he fought against Jezrien which was noted by Jezrien as being a particularly honorable thing to do ("an enemy who was correct all along"), and now he's repeating that character-defining moment again but in a twisted context. Taln repeats his introductory speech over again. I wonder if they are perpetuating their own personal cycles? Resetting the Oathpact could mean resetting their Intent so they can be freed of their madness--mechanically forcing a change? I also think it might have an application on the Fused, too, who function similarly ... imagine if Raboniel's Intent was to end the war, one way or another. She maintains her clarity up to the end, although her methods are pretty extreme. Leshwi might be fighting the war to her internal code. But other Fused might be sick of the war, and want to leave it behind like the Heralds left the Oathpact, and they might be reduced to madness. The Pursuer, I think, could be an example of a Fused who is gradually going against his Intent: suppose it was to fight the war, but more and more he changes his identity to that of someone who pursues vengeance over Odium's agenda. So each time he gets reborn, he suffers more magically induced madness, because he's choosing actively to pull further and further away from that initial Intent.

The source for the number of Shards that Alethkar, Jah Keved, etc. is Dalinar in TWoK when he witnesses the Day of Recreance at Feverstone Keep, but he specifies Blades, not Plate. The Coppermind also leaves out Amaram/Helaran's Shardplate. I agree that it might be that someone wouldn't have to work too hard to hide them if they could just toss them all back into the Cognitive Realm somehow without a gemstone bond, and there are a lot of deadeyes in Shadesmar. In RoW Chapter 75, Adolin assumes that when they turn to mist in Shadesmar, they are being summoned by their owners. Pattern also suggests that the Cryptics have done a little research on how to cure deadeyes when he gives Shallan the run-down on the Recreance. Experimenting on the dead might also contribute to the supposedly fearsome reputation of the Cryptics. Pattern could even be talking about the use of a gemstone as the method they used to try and restore the old ones. Who knows? I almost think that the dismissal function of the gemstone is, like, a side effect of whatever pseudo-bond it's creating, rather than the main thing. The gemstone bond to the human seems to create some kind of connection to the Cognitive that was severed when the oath was broken, so that the spren's Investiture can be sent into the Shadesmar. Navani notes in WoR Chapter 67 that the Shardblades were said to have to have altered their shapes to adopt the gemstones--something that isn't typically possible of a dead Blade--so maybe the original function was not to have a bonded and dismissible weapon but to give relief to the spren? Maybe the former Radiants innovated that particular development? The deadeyes in Shadesmar, at least, aren't screaming constantly, and the bond seems to comfort Maya and even Oathbringer to some degree. Stone is supposed to be similar to a mind in its ability to hold Investiture. I also don't think it's too implausible that the spren might be the ones who somehow contrived to recover their dead over the years so they wouldn't be used as weapons against their will or trapped forever in their own corpse. The honorspren have a system to care for the deadeyes. The spren who make up Plate probably wouldn't need the same kind of mercy. And in another direction entirely, might it be possible that maybe the Investiture that makes up the Blade may have just leaked back into the Cognitive Realm over time? It happens to living spren whose Radiants have died. They don't have anything anchoring them to the Physical Realm, though it doesn't seem to happen immediately. The practice of attaching gemstones is also said to date from "several decades" after the Recreance, which could be about the length of human lifespan. When their former Radiants died, did the Shardblades suddenly lack a valid Connection to the Physical Realm and gradually fade away, like Jezrien's soul when it was trapped in a gemstone? Could attaching the gemstone might have been the solution people came up with to keep possession of the Shards? This is all just speculation, of course. I'm not sure that there's any real answer that can be pieced together from the available information, but it is fun to think about.

I've noticed this, too. Shallan actually experiments with infusing Pattern with Stormlight in WoR, when she learns to attach an illusion to him. Shallan also places an illusion to Syl in the Cognitive Realm. In the quote from RoW about Syl being a brimming cup of water, context suggests that Kaladin is probably talking about how he can't Lash her in her manifested Shardspear form like he can a regular weapon. I think he's describing the inability to Lash a god metal manifested in the Physical Realm, just as Shardplate can't be Lashed (or manifest in the Cognitive Realm, for that matter.)

Having had time to dwell on this subject, the thing I find most interesting is how this has changed how I see Taravangian and his insights on the movements in the world. I definitely have a greater appreciation for how unreliable he is as a source. How he presents his information seems as important as the information he seems to convey, even within his own head. It also makes me wonder what exactly must be happening that he developed the conclusions he did. Why does he think Helaran is a Surgebinder? What information does he have about the Davars? What was Helaran doing that it drew his attention, and Nale's, and Wit's? Nale tracked Szeth's location because of his unique circumstances; did he do something similar for Helaran? Why does the description given of the Blade, which is given so frequently, seem to match the art of the Lightweaver Honorblade? Is there a connection there at all? This is something I really appreciate in discussion! For my part, I still had enough uncertainty on this point that I wanted to present the argument anyway. I included the scene where Amaram summons his Blade before Dalinar because I knew it was good evidence for the "against" argument. Dalinar especially would be able to identify various Shardblades at a quick glance. The only possible argument I could make about this is that there may be subtle alterations in the visions as they presented to Dalinar. Information presented to him in the visions is subject to the perception given to him by the Stormfather and by Honor. He's never able to track down Feverstone Keep, for whatever reason. But there's also not much, if any, evidence to suggest that the visions are anything but faithful recreations of past events--so faithful that Navani is able to use his visions to facilitate the translation of the Dawnchant. She also instantly identifies Jezrien's Blade in the circle as the Blade that killed Gavilar, so there's not necessarily a reason to think that something has been changed in the vision of the Honorblades. I still think there's something up with Helaran, but I'm steadily being persuaded that this is unlikely to be it. Specifically Jezrien's Honorblade is described as being relatively smaller and plainer than a typical Shardblade. I like to think that this is symbolic of the type of pragmatic, unaffected leadership that the Windrunners tend toward. The rest aren't necessarily described as being smaller or significantly different from a typical Shardblade when they happen to appear. Taln's Honorblade is described as being "massive", for example. The real difference, according to Dalinar, is that gemstone. When Amaram touches Helaran's Shardblade, Kaladin sees the gem at the pommel flash. I genuinely believe that this is Taln's original Honorblade that he appears with in Kholinar. The Shardblade Taln is carrying in TWoK and the Shardblade that Dalinar bonds in WoR have been confirmed as being separate, and the swap as occurring somewhere on the way to the Shattered Plains. There's a WoB clarifying this point. I have edited it for length. There's another one confirming "staying dropped" as a behavior of Honorblades, that I will quote here:

I believe that Szeth's attack took place just moments after Eshonai took on stormform, as the bulk of the highstorm passed. In the interlude preceding Part 2, she and Venli talk about picking a highstorm to initiate the change. In the interlude following, she goes through with it. The Stormfather interacts with both Eshonai and Kaladin in the same sorrowful manner, as if this all was inevitable, and says "I'm sorry" to the both of them. The timing of the event I think is also confirmed by some dialogue lines about the meeting with Dalinar and Eshonai that is to take place soon, in both chapter 32 and I-5. Renarin and Adolin have a conversation about a Parshendi messenger, while Eshonai and Thude (the messenger) have a conversation confirming the meeting date. In I-8, Eshonai directly pitches the idea of bringing the Everstorm into the Physical Realm. Szeth's appearance at the same time is something I always interpreted as a terrible coincidence in-world. Narratively, he seems to represent the political/human threat that the characters get distracted by. The spren know that Odium and the Everstorm are coming, but the humans are still preoccupied by these smaller conflicts. I think the thematic connection between Szeth and Odium still stands, however, since Taravangian will eventually take up the Shard. (How does the relationship between Dalinar and Rayse mirror the relationship between Szeth and Taravangian? That's an interesting thought.) Something else that's interesting to me is that Syl is the one who whispers, "he's here" right before Szeth appears. Earlier in WoR, she seems to demonstrate a minor ability to see farflung Connections between people (specifically when she imitates Shallan on the beach while standing by a pool in the chasms). In OB, she has that mysterious comment about Kaladin's family. Maybe she really is seeing a capital C Connection between Szeth and Odium? In a more "mundane" sense, maybe Syl and the Stormfather are aware of Szeth via the highstorm, and expressing concern about both the oncoming Everstorm and Szeth, while Pattern is only sensing the Everstorm. (Which is bad enough, I suppose.) Pattern does mention that the spren "sensed" something wrong in RoW. The way Pattern frames it makes it sound like he knew about it prior to entering the Physical Realm, whenever that might have been. He's not clear about how that happens, but it seems the spren were aware of movement from Odium and voidspren in some capacity. I really want to know how he knew, though.

I would argue that Taravangian doesn't have nearly the same reaction regarding Shallan's supposed surgebinding as he does for Kaladin's. If he assumes they are both surgebinders via spren, why wouldn't he do the same thing to track Shallan? Not being combat capable doesn't necessarily preclude somebody from entering into combat. Even if she would be evacuated, as Elhokar was, the way Szeth has struck in the past has led him into contact with nearby civilians, and their Alethi spies would have informed them that Shallan would be around the Kholin family. It seems to me his spren-based epiphany is solely reserved for "the bridgeman" and not for Shallan (or even Jasnah, though at this point she is 'dead'). When I read the scene, it seems to me like he's re-reading something that he had forgotten was even a possibility, whereas he had weighed Shallan's situation, and found it unimportant. However, his distress is partially because the Diagram is "off." It could very well be that because Shallan is somehow accounted for in his estimation, he doesn't feel the same anxiety about Szeth encountering her--as you suggest, maybe the odds are simply too low to be reckoned, or he feels the Diagram has ruled it out. I addressed, too. To summarize, Dalinar has seen these, and he even suggests having Shallan do drawings. I can't find evidence that she actually did any. However, when he encounters Ishar, he only finds Ishar's Blade to be "vaguely familiar." Whether this is because there is something wrong with the Blade, the visions, his memory, or even the continuity between books is unclear to me. You are absolutely right, in my opinion, to raise it as a point against.

This is something that deserves maybe more attention than I've given it previously. I've definitely taken for granted the fact that I feel Helaran's appearance is so strange, dramatic, and puzzling that it requires some sort of explanation, and haven't spent a lot of time explaining why I believe it to be that to be the case. I'll do my best to go over why I feel it's worthy of scrutiny. I want to start by saying, well, it's a story, and narratively it has the most impact if Helaran appears out of nowhere, where no one is expecting him. But there is a strong practical aspect to the books, so I do think you could follow the lines and puzzle out a explanation. The battle is split across two viewpoints, Cenn at the beginning, and then Kaladin for parts of the beginning and the conclusion. Cenn sets up the terrain and gives some insight on the visibility. The battlefield is bare and flat, "good pasture" land. There are thousands of soldiers lining up behind them; Kaladin's squad is at the front. For Cenn, the battle is utter chaos; he has no idea why Kaladin does anything that he does and everyone looks , but he does provide something of a timeline. At the start of the battle, Kaladin moves his squad to a predetermined location, a "small incline" that they hold for "the better part of an hour." At that point, Amaram's line breaks and they retreat, which "turns into a rout." They head east, trying to rejoin with a larger portion of Amaram's army, when they are intercepted by enemy soldiers on their way back to their own army's position. This is to illustrate that they are looking back at their own lines for a variety of reasons the whole time. I would argue that the thing Kaladin is preoccupied with is watching the flow of battle with a mind to keep his squad alive. Though everything is chaos and disintegration to Cenn, Kaladin views the battle very differently. He is consistently tracking threats and potential targets. He looks back at his own lines multiple times, to track the progress of the battle and the best positions to retreat. He also looks back because he's expecting runners to lift his wounded from the battlefield, and to claim specific kills. When a combatant with a lot of advantages appears, such as the mace-wielder, he breaks a "bubble" around him as people try to get out of range, making them visible. Around the time that Helaran appears, Cenn looks back to note that "[a]s Kaladin had predicted, Amaram's line was surging back, recovering." They are watching their own line pretty closely. It's at this point that Helaran makes his appearance. Was the line "surging" because people were running away from Helaran? Just a moment before, Kaladin appears to believe that Amaram's forces are winning. Toorim, a member of one of Kaladin's squad, is the one who alerts Kaladin of the oncoming Shardbearer, who then turns the once recovering ranks "to mush." The way he's described makes it clear that there is something very special about his weapon and his armor that is unmistakable. He radiates light, "like the Almighty himself had taken form to walk the battlefield." He's galloping on a massive black horse, which in Shardplate is hard on ordinary warhorses. Kaladin calls him an impossibility for a reason. Just as Amaram is about to win the battle and has entered combat personally, Helaran also enters as well. He doesn't appear to take a side. He rides south, where Amaram is leading. He pauses to kill soldiers he passes. When Kaladin's squad engages him, he "shook a helmed head" and proceeds to kill everyone who doesn't flee. There are four that he ignores on his way to execute Amaram. Finally, Kaladin engages and kills him. If there was any hint of this guy on the battlefield for the last hour, would Amaram have entered the battle? Would Amaram have the same appearance of imminent victory? Why would Helaran ride all the way around, to strike at Amaram from behind, when it's equally possible to approach from the front and have the same result? A Shardbearer would ordinarily outclass everyone on the field so profoundly it would have the same effect to ride head on. Why does Helaran choose to make this attack so public, when he doesn't even speak to Amaram, or anyone else? It doesn't appear to be an attack of passion. How did he plan to exit the combat? Where would he go? Who was supporting him? Would he have claimed the kill? How? These questions are intriguing even if the Shardblade he's wielding is an ordinary dead Blade. To me, personally, his actions suggest that the attack on Amaram was a message meant for someone else. Appearing as he did seems to have been a psychological attack as well as a physical one. It could be a message for Nale, to prove himself worthy of a spren bond, like Mraize suggests. But while Nale operates comparatively quietly, this would leave a big mark. Wouldn't people talk about the mysterious Shardbearer that killed Amaram, and wonder what happened? The Sadeas Princedom would be destabilized with the loss of the highmarshal, and Alethkar's northern border would be vulnerable. Was that the aim, or just collateral damage? I have no answers for these questions, but I find it really fascinating to think about. Afterwards, Amaram spends some time with his counselors trying to determine the identity of the Shardbearer. They don't know. There's no indication given that they believe he was ever in allied or supported by the army they were fighting against; Amaram, who may believe himself to be more important than he is, suggests Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods to his stormwarden companion. The other army is never even given a confirmed identity (though my guess is someone on the Vamah/Sadeas border). It's impossible to say why he should be so certain of his conclusion, though Alethi engage in espionage on each other all the time. Amaram's stormwarden suggests that he "doesn't recognize him", though later Amaram will explain that the face was destroyed in his counterattack. Amaram goes to some effort to obscure the timeline of his acquisition as well, supplying Dalinar with seventeen witnesses to prove that he only acquired his Shardblade "four months ago, long after [Kaladin's] ledger says you were made a slave." Amaram has a bigger perspective of what might be possible, but he's also very limited as well. I think it's fair to say that communication within the battle might have been delayed, but it wasn't so bad that Kaladin didn't expect to receive aid from the runners after giving his signal, and he isn't even an officer at this point. I also think that Helaran was so obvious, so shiny, it would be difficult to miss him, if not for the fact that he was in Shardplate and on horseback, then because people would give him a huge berth. The Shardblade is six feet long, but there's a limit to its range; he can't, and doesn't, kill everyone who sees him. This, however, might be explained by the movement Kaladin sees in Amaram's ranks just moments before he gallops in. Finally, six thousand, the strength of Amaram's army, is a lot of people, and I can accept it might be difficult to see what's going on at range from a low vantage point. But I also think it would be pretty hard to "ride around" that big of a mass and stay unannounced. In fact, everything Helaran does after appearing is to be extremely flashy and noticeable. It's his arrival that was unexpected. It appears to do so for darkeyes, but I don't know about lighteyes! Szeth ordinarily has dark green eyes, but while he's fighting Kaladin in WoR, they are pale blue. Szeth states the following about the Honorblade's effects. When Dalinar gives Bridge Four the Windrunner Honorblade to practice with, it makes Rock's eyes turn pale blue. Bonding ordinary dead Shardblades doesn't seem to change the eye color of lighteyes in general. Of the darkeyes who become Radiant, Kaladin's eyes turn a distinctly different color, brown to pale sapphire blue. Other Radiants are either already lighteyed (Shallan, Jasnah, etc). I'd have to do a more thorough search to see if anyone else's eyes change from one color to another, instead of merely lightening (dark green to light, brown to light tan or yellow, etc.) Dalinar, one of the few lighteyes to hold the Windrunner Honorblade, already has light blue eyes. Moash's eyes lighten to pale tan when he bonds the Shardblade that Kaladin gifted to him. In Part 1 of RoW, he has dark eyes in the time that he hasn't summoned his Honorblade. When he does, no mention is made of his eye color; he "shadows his face" with his arm. When Moash and Teft fight at the end of RoW, Teft observes that his eyes are "glowing" but doesn't mention color specifically. In contrast, Taln enters on screen with his Honorblade in his hand, but has dark eyes that get commented on specifically. As a final note, I was re-reading RoW, and found that even Mraize is getting in on the Honorblade guessing game. Aw, c'mon!

I was thinking logistically; how would you move around Shardplate subtly? How would you get into it? It can't be Lashed. Moash needed a wagon to transport his. Adolin has to have a support team to help get him in it. Something is going on that assists Helaran getting to where he needs to be. He could have volunteered with the opposing side, moved around that way, but practically I think it's likely he would have been seen long before he actually is, by everyone. Re-reading the chapter, Cenn describes the battlefield as "bare, flat slickrock, remarkably even and smooth, broken only by occasional rockbuds." He describes the enemy as appearing "civil and neat." There is a lot of visibility on this battlefield. They spot riders pretty easily on the battlefield, including a guy with a mace that Cenn mistakes for a Shardbearer. (I also mixed up this guy's horse with Helaran's earlier; his is white and Helaran's is black.) Here's an interesting bit that I initially forgot about, though: That's something else to consider! Putting that aside for now, Kaladin has more battlefield awareness than Cenn, and he's the one who places Helaran in behind their own lines. I don't think there wouldn't need to be communication or messages to relay the information that a Shardbearer had entered the fray. Visibility is too good for him to simply ride around and the impression he makes when he does appear is so overwhelming that it makes me doubtful he could move around like that unremarked without help.

That's a really solid point about Taravangian. He was absolutely wrong about Shallan, and so relying too much on his analysis of Helaran's abilities could be misleading. But that still leaves me with the question of how Helaran got behind Amaram's lines to attack him, especially as a Shardbearer in full plate on a white horse. I do too! Szeth says it "vanished" long ago, and described himself as having seen depictions of it instead. My guess about Ishar's reclaiming his Honorblade is just a guess, based on the fact that it would have had to be between Szeth being exiled and some time before Szeth identifies it. Ishar starts the Eighty's War as Tezim around the time Gavilar dies, but does he do so with or without his Honorblade to back up his claims of being an aspect of the Almighty? In OB, the Voidspren are said to have appeared somewhere near "Marat or Tukar on your side" sometime in the last year, causing a change in Shadesmar "these last few months." That's certainly pretty weird, and could indicate a big change there. Here's Ishar's (somewhat dubious) take on the Shin and the Honorblades: It's even the second time Taravangian has used the Honorblades in an attempt to coerce Szeth into doing what he wants him to do ... this is a good point to bring up, especially since it highlights how unreliable Taravangian is as a source. The fact that Ishar appeared to confirm what Taravangian said could even be meant as a misdirection. Taravangian plants the seed that ultimately gets "confirmed" somehow and then Szeth reacts exactly as Taravangian ultimately intended. In that same scene, though, Taravangian regrets reading those manipulations, and appeals to Szeth in a way that at least appears sincere. He just doesn't walk back on Szeth's father being dead. I guess this will have to wait until the story goes to Shinovar. Szeth recognizes the Bondsmith Honorblade, though, and Ishar demonstrates that he can manipulate Connection in the fight. I think it's safe enough to assume at some point, Ishar did manage to get a hold of the Bondsmith Honorblade, although his version of events as he tells them might be extremely skewed. Like I noted, Dalinar only finds it "vaguely familiar" even though he has actually seen it before, in the visions of Aharietiam. Are the visions presenting the Honorblades in another way? Is Dalinar's memory for them just not as good, since he didn't study them and Szeth did? Is it just continuity editing? Well, an extremely tenuous connection there might be Ash's book being the Dustbringer themed one. The sole narrative purpose I can think of is maybe Rock finally decides it's time to use weapons in his novella, and the Honorblade would be a readily available deadeye-free option. Would someone be able to take an Honorblade into Shadesmar?

It's all guesswork. What I'm doing is looking at the specific moments that don't have an explanation and seeing if I can apply anything that makes sense, improves my enjoyment of the story, or both. My example here is that I really enjoy the theme of lies, truth, and ignorance: Amaram wanted to find the Honorblades so badly, never realizing that he already had one. He wanted to bring back the Heralds, when they were already here. He was deceiving himself, and being deceived. His inability to perceive the world as anything but what he wanted it to be eventually destroys him when the truth is revealed, and cannot bring himself to account for his actions. It also explains, in a simple way, certain things that Helaran does that don't make sense to me if his Shardblade is dead, or doesn't have a Radiant bond, or isn't Surgebinding, etc. And if that's the case, then I like that a lot. But the presence of an operational gemstone that flashes when the bond is initiated when Honorblades don't need one bothers me; the fact that the Blade vanishes when he drops it does the same thing; there is nothing concrete about Ishar taking or the Shin holding the Honorblades; and so maybe this isn't the answer. Someone else reading the wrong answer might suddenly realize something else that fits better, though, so I thought it would be interesting to put it forward.

My guess is that it has to do with how Kaladin killed him (direct strike to the head) and the inefficiency of Stormlight use via Honorblade. Szeth brings that up in the Prologue of TWoK. That was a non-fatal injury that Szeth believed would take ages using the Honorblade's access to Stormlight healing. Shallan has taken direct hits to the head and survived, but her Radiant healing is much, much faster than "hours" to heal a broken jaw. Nale has also taken a shot to the head, but he's Radiant as well. Nale also remarks (a little chillingly) that most new Radiants die because they don't know how to heal in an unconscious state. Another argument is "why not use Soulcasting or illusions?" And the answer to that might be strategy, optics, or even that inefficiency vs what Helaran could get for it in active combat. Lightweavers don't seem to use their Surges in an offensive way very often. Still, my argument is weak there. Taravangian's assumption that Helaran was a Surgebinder, or had been trained in it, also holds a lot of weight for me as well. However, this could also be referring to training as a Skybreaker trainee at some point, especially since the Skybreakers have been involved with the Davars one way or another for a while now. But the fact that Taravangian was so deeply concerned about Szeth encountering Kaladin, who is swearing oaths and bonding a spren, but not Shallan makes me think that he's assuming there's a non-Radiant origin to her Surgebinding, along with assuming that Helaran trained her in that and was also worth keeping track of ... and of course, here I have to concede that he's actually wrong about Shallan entirely, so how much weight those words can be given might be a little limited.

Mraize's letter says that Nale was impressed by Helaran somehow, though anything Mraize tells Shallan deserves a lot of scrutiny--I think Mraize is interpreting his information through whatever means they use to spy on the Skybreakers, and he doesn't have the full context of why Nale does anything he does. Helaran tells his father that he has "an important work to do" when Lin asks him about his "new friends." Wit also deemed Helaran worthwhile enough to pass along his message (though it might have been simple curiosity to see what was happening in that area, since he references that there's something more going on there). He calls Helaran "a very determined young man" and adds that "very little in the world has ever gone astray--at least on a grand scale--because a person decided to be frivolous." There was something about this guy that prompted important people to pay attention to what he was doing. It's just not clear yet what that was. Nale only reclaimed his own Honorblade back in the day. There's too much I'm not certain of to say why he wouldn't just use it himself, except to observe that he hasn't used another powerful weapon in his possession personally in the text, and that the Lightweaver power set doesn't seem to match how Nale operates on his own. I could probably wonder why Ishar wouldn't just use all the Blades in his possession himself. Nale believed that Nightblood was particularly suited to Szeth; he may have done the same in the past for Helaran. Otherwise, I don't have a real answer to that particular question that isn't wholly speculation. It's definitely something to consider.

It's exciting to post my own topic for the first time! Something I’ve wondered about for a while now is how Helaran appeared on the battlefield from behind Amaram’s lines. It’s been theorized for a while now that Helaran was a Surgebinder. Primarily, this is because of a quick line from Taravangian discussing Shallan as a Surgebinder. Taravangian clearly believes that Helaran has some Surgebinding capability. But he’s absolutely startled by the account of an Alethi bridgeman spontaneously developing Surgebinding on his own. What did he think Jasnah, Shallan, and Helaran were up to, then? Shallan is at the Shattered Plains, but though he suspects her of Surgebinding, she doesn’t apparently warrant activating their agents. He breezes right past her miraculous survival. He doesn't fret about her coming into contact with Szeth at all. But that makes sense if Taravangian knows that the Honorblades are no longer in the Shin's possession, and haven't been for years. He may be assuming Shallan's Surgebinding ability, whatever it is, is granted by a Blade that she was trained to use. In RoW, Szeth learns that his father, who had keeping of the Bondsmith Honorblade is dead, and that Ishar took back his Honorblade at some point after Szeth’s banishment. Taravangian reveals that he knew Szeth’s father Neturo was dead prior to this revelation. My guess is that Ishar recovered his Honorblade about seven years before it’s spotted in RoW. This would coincide with him coming into power in Tukar. Nale seems to have been in contact with Ishar seven years ago, the same year that Gavilar and Shallan Davar’s mother were both killed. Did Nale's concerns, perhaps prompted by his conversations with Gavilar and Venli, influence Ishar's decision to take back his Honorblade? That’s a little bit out of the scope of what I’m thinking but pretty interesting. What I'm suggesting is that Ishar may have also taken custody of the other Honorblades as well. Helaran returns home with his new Shardblade about six and a half years ago, from the current position in the timeline. The descriptions given to this Shardblade closely resemble the Lightweaver Honorblade, which is something I never noticed until I looked at the art for the Honorblades. That gemstone in the pommel is the only thing that doesn’t seem to fit that description. How hard is it to move and set gemstones on a Shardblade? It can be done to regular Shardblades, though I don’t know if that necessarily proves anything. Sunraiser, for example, bears a pretty strong resemblance to the Bondsmith Honorblade, in my opinion. Possibly Helaran’s blade is a dead spren in a form that strongly resembles the Lightweaver Honorblade. But with the Lightweaver Honorblade, Helaran’s miraculous appearance makes more sense. He’d have used a Lightweaving to hide the fact that he was a Shardbearer mounted on a horse in the middle of an enemy army. It also might explain something that has meshed poorly for me with Helaran's being a Skybreaker acolyte, which was specifically his weird glowing effect. Shallan or the things she holds sometimes seem to glow, particularly when it’s implied that she’s using the Spiritual form of her Transformation surge. Tien’s implied bond to a Cryptic also uses the symbolism of things glowing or becoming brighter. To me this is more evidence that Helaran had some Surgebinding ability in that direction. Shallan mentions that there is no history attached to Amaram/Helaran’s Shardblade, in a world where every Shardblade known is recorded and named. It’s not out of the question that Nale would have access to an unknown Shardblade, but if he’s in contact with Ishar and seriously concerned by an oncoming Desolation, he might have access to another Honorblade and the motivation to arm someone who "impressed him" with it. Taravangian therefore might be working under the assumption that the same source (Nale) that gave Helaran his Honorblade might be supplying Shallan. This means that Amaram would have had possession of the Lightweaver Honorblade. If he perceived it as an ordinary Shardblade, perhaps he simply never noticed he was holding an Honorblade. I think this would be pretty deeply ironic for the villain who lies to himself about why he does what he does and truly believes his own lies to have the Lightweaver Honorblade. Someone who would have known, Restares/Kalak, seemed mostly to be in contact with Amaram via spanreed from afar. I doubt he’d share that information with Amaram, who I think he must have been manipulating--but it’s impossible to say. Other people who would recognize the Lightweaver Honorblade would be Szeth, Dalinar, Taln, and Ash. Szeth, Taln, and Ash don’t ever seem to witness Amaram wielding the Blade in combat that I can find, although all three are present at the Battle of Thaylen Field. Ash spends her time looking after Taln, and never mentions seeing her own Honorblade or Amaram. Szeth, likewise, spends a lot of his time occupied by other concerns, and never mentions seeing the Lightweaver Honorblade or Amaram that I can find in the text. It’s either not the one, or they miraculously miss it every time. Dalinar also saw both Helaran/Amaram’s Shardblade, when he confronted Amaram near the end of WoR, and the Honorblades in his visions of Aharietiam. Dalinar also pitched the idea of Shallan doing studies of the Honorblades seen in the vision. Dalinar has published written accounts of the visions, as I recall, but no mention is made of drawings. Quickly reading through the rest of the part, it's not clear to me if Shallan ever gets around to doing that. However, when Dalinar sees Ishar’s Honorblade, he doesn’t have the same recognition he does for Jezrien’s Blade, which is the most familiar to him; this could be a continuity error, or maybe indicative of something else. And during the battle, when Dalinar does the tally of people with him, Amaram wields Oathbringer alone. As far as I can tell, Amaram doesn’t use Helaran’s Blade until he fights Kaladin. Finally, there is the matter of Honorblades' behavior. When Taln drops his Honorblade, it doesn't vanish. This is meant to be a big clue as to its nature. Amaram drops Helaran's Blade twice in his fight with Kaladin, and it vanishes. Szeth also drops Jezrien's Blade in the fight with Gavilar, and the “bond” so to speak doesn’t appear to be broken. Szeth is able to resummon the Honorblade after being parted from it. No mention is made of where it ended up or if it vanished as he dropped it. My only explanation for this is that perception could be at work here. Szeth believes that the Honorblade should take ten heartbeats to summon, and it does. Perhaps Amaram likewise believes that a Shardblade should vanish when it is dropped, and so as it leaves his hand, it vanishes. Ishar demonstrates that the Honorblade, like a living Shardblade, can wink out of existence for a second and return in a flash. To summarize: I think it’s possible that Helaran was given the Lightweaver Honorblade by Nale, who gained access to it when Ishar reclaimed his own Honorblade. It’s not clear to me why he would do that, although Mraize says that Helaran was recruited with “displays of power” and that Helaran impressed Nale. Could Nale have shown Helaran how it would be possible to Surgebind without bonding a Cryptic? Then Helaran uses it to position himself behind Amaram’s lines. Maybe as an enemy combatant on the field of war, the kill is “legal?” This is still a mystery to me. Helaran is then killed by Kaladin. Eventually the Honorblade ends up with Amaram, who is completely ignorant of what it really is, and somehow it conveniently hopscotches anyone who could identify it. The Blades are awarded to then Rock, who "insists that they cannot be used" according to his daughter. They "gather dust in their box" until he returns to the Horneater Peaks. I find this idea extremely interesting, but a bit tenuous! I've done my best to cover all the things I can think of on my own, for and against. I specifically like Helaran's Shardblade being the Lightweaver Honorblade for the thematic connection to Amaram's lies, and because it's a simple, elegant explanation for the things about Helaran that don't quite make sense otherwise. But it seems to rely on those who could see it for what it is to simply not be around, for certain lapses of curiosity, and for Nale to be totally okay with losing an Honorblade. The gemstone is also located in the wrong place according to the art, which I am not 100% is really usable as evidence, and when it gets dropped, it vanishes ... Despite all this, I still thought it would be a fun theory to share.

That's fair! The revelation of Testament totally just threw out all the rules for me, two spren is on the same level for me as hidden truths. I have mostly been interested in looking at solutions to the puzzle that haven't been suggested yet to add to the discussion. Shallan misremembers so many things and is so exceptionally good at lying that I personally don't find it strange that she might be telling the reader the same story she tells herself. I think the biggest problem for me in tracking these is that I never really see Shallan get a "these words are accepted" from anyone, not even in the scene which she specifically cites as a speaking a Truth to Pattern. I frequently wonder if it's the Cryptics themselves that judge how true or deep the Truths spoken are. Since Shallan's perception of truth changes throughout, her oaths and truths would be subject to change as she heals from her trauma. This could explain a continual violation and reconstruction of oaths. As people learn more, they change their minds, right? I do find it just as plausible that Shallan is leaning on that bond and reviving it as she needs Testament, especially because of that Shardblade summoning / Soulcasting bit. I think Shallan herself comes to a similar conclusion, as her powers still worked in "some small ways." (She needs to earn my trust back, though.) The fact that she can still use her Resonance is another big point to consider. Kaladin's arc in WoR reads differently to me now, almost like he is acting out the mechanics of Shallan's past on the page. He was still able to reach out along the bond to hear the sound of weeping, although in RoW the official line as Adolin knows it is that Kaladin only "nearly killed her." Syl says that she died both in WoR and OB, but maybe no one believes it because she's either not still or never became a deadeye. I know there's no way to know, but if he had been on a slower road to reconstructing those oaths, would his progress look like Shallan's? When Shallan relives breaking her oaths, she describes a terrible ripping sensation; could this be the part of Testament that gets ripped away from what has merged with Shallan's spiritweb? If she can still use her powers, does this mean that enough of Testament's soul is left in her spiritweb to use them, whereas Kaladin's bond with Syl perhaps had not yet advanced to the point where they were irrevocably merged? He describes the pain as "not getting inside." Could this be what Maya meant when she talked about expecting pain, but not death? I think this is something that would also be a pretty intriguing concept to apply to someone like Helaran.

For me, the WoB regarding 1.1 steps forward, 1 step back has to do with something else. However, in RoW, there was evidence that things could really work that way (ex. a Radiant can gain certain benefits of an Ideal "rank" by merely being very close to it) and since the Cryptics seem to be extremely lenient and subjective with what they consider to be the Truth, I think it could be that Shallan is accessing the living version of Testament by being closer to the Truth of her existence. From what we know of Testament, I feel it's likely that she would be especially willing to bend things to help Shallan. I have my own interpretation of events that allows for Shallan to use the Patternblade by WoR Chapter 63 (this is the scene with Taln), but there's also this small observation that Syl makes that casts doubt on that: The ellipsis in Chapter 60 that I suggested as a possible manifestation of the Patternblade could also be a possible moment where Shallan swears the first Ideal. She'd have to conceal that from herself for the same reasons I listed previously for the Shardblade; it's supposed to be Pattern, she can't be making a fresh oath to a spren she's already supposed to have bonded. Testament would have to be the living Shardblade in that case, in both the chasms and the Oathgate. Other possibilities include Syl being wrong, which has happened before, Syl perhaps referring to the Cryptics as a whole people, and this being an early sighting of another Cryptic (Design after Elhokar?) Context makes me think of Pattern, but that doesn't necessarily need to be the case. As for my interpretation, I'm almost completely certain that Testament was the Shardblade used to kill Tyn. I think it's a part of the 1.1 step forward reference there. Now that we have some more details of Shallan's mother's death, we can see that it was pretty much identical to how Tyn was killed. I'm going to quote both scenes below, which both depict fatal violence. To me, the Truth that young Shallan may have realized in that critical moment is that she could do those difficult things that "rip the soul apart." That scene in WoR also contains a moment of spontaneous Lightweaving that I usually see as being a marker of significant developments in Shallan's personal progress; for a moment there is a vision of "Shallan as a woman of the court," which might actually be symbolic of Shallan's mother or of some idealized version of Shallan. This might be a sign of Shallan re-constructing this particular oath, and I tend to interpret it that way. Tyn's tutoring is something that Shallan will rely on extensively in the future, and Tyn was clearly fond of Shallan. Compare that to Shallan's belief that her mother was brave, and would have taught her art and philosophy. But Shallan had to kill Tyn, or die herself. When she talks about having learned that lesson already, there is a direct parallel to the death of her mother. If there's a moment where Shallan is closest to the Truth of Testament's existence, I think it's here. In the chasms, she only shares her history with Kaladin after summoning her Shardblade, which doesn't scream and can change shape; the scene is from Kaladin's perspective and he summarizes what she says, and there is not an obvious mention of Shallan's mother, only of "the terrors she had known." But then again, it is a difficult thing to summon her Shardblade, which has caused her so much pain. Shallan has proven to herself that she can do those things. She needs to be able to do them in the chasms, because someone else needs her to be strong. Likewise at the Oathgate, where the Alethi forces are all depending on her. If there was ever a time to dig deep for that truth, it would be then. She knows she can do it, she has the living Shardblade, and she must use it. Acknowledging that she can do those difficult, soul-destroying things is different from admitting what she has done in the past, and I think that is the 1 step back. I detailed what I believed was her Truth 2 to Pattern in a previous post. I still tend to believe that Pattern is the Shardblade in the scene with Taln, in the chasms, and at the Oathgate, and that she is using her memory tricks to obscure her Truths to him. When Shallan refers to her deeper truth, I think it is thematically connected to what Pattern called a "deep lie indeed." I interpret Shallan as saying, "Yes, I can do these difficult things . . . but only if I lie to myself about doing them."

This is a really cool association! It gives me so much to think about. Though the name "Parasaphi" evokes Persephone, the actual story of the seedstones reads to me as being similar to the Osiris resurrection myth. I believe I've seen Cultivation compared to the goddess Isis before, particularly when you think about Osiris, her husband, being murdered by a usurper and torn into pieces to be gathered up. That's spot on to Honor being splintered by Odium, isn't it? And the flooding of the Nile is comparable to the highstorm renewing Stormlight and distributing crem. I also notice seeds as being associated symbolically in the text with the surges of Progression and Transformation, too. (A seed to grow from, but also a "seed" to be inspired by.) Cultivation seems to be pretty strongly associated with mythology concerning life, death, rebirth, the underworld, etc. I wonder if she's connected somehow to Braize, which is something of an in-universe underworld? Nothing grows there. Or is the closest analogue Shadesmar? Could she have thematic ability in that direction? Could that go some way to explaining Lift's unusual interactions with spren and the Cognitive Realm? I wonder if the nod to Persephone might have anything to do with the surge of Transportation, as well?

I have been thinking about this whole thing a lot since I first finished RoW, and when I did my full series re-read, I took a lot of notes on pretty much every little thing Shallan did or said (and especially in light of this thread). This mystery is intriguing enough to me that I wanted to contribute to the discussion; I think there is a sixth option! My personal conclusion right now is that Shallan's truths to Pattern are basically all lies and her "real truths" are different from what is generally assumed. This is a part of a larger argument that I've been working on that goes over everything that I think even remotely resembles an Ideal. This notion started when I noted down this quote: I essentially think that none of the Truths spoken as traditionally interpreted (except for maybe "I'm terrified,") are really Shallan's perception of the events, just the basic facts. "I killed my father" is not the Ideal--the truth that brings power is "I am a murderer," in my opinion. I also think the traditional timeline for Ideals is merely Shallan's false timeline for Ideals. As a part of convincing herself, she has to convince the reader that it is real and viable. I think the lack of obvious truths is a part of that grand deception. From other portions of the book, it's clear that she can literally force herself to just black out entire memories in real time. I think she uses that to sneakily swear Ideals under the radar. I specifically think that this scene is Shallan swearing Ideal 3 (aka Truth 2) to Pattern. I think that this is the the real Truth: "I can be what I am because I cut [the memories] off." That ellipsis is present in the text. I think the ellipsis is necessary for Shallan because Ideal 3 seems to come with a non-negotiable first manifestation of a Shardblade. (Kaladin doesn't appear to do it consciously the first time; neither does Lopen, who is completely shocked. Lift almost does, but it's timed in the most dramatic way possible.) Shallan can't allow herself to acknowledge that this is the first manifestation of the Patternblade, because obviously she should already have that Shardblade! She already killed Tyn with it. She has to lie to herself so the timeline works. I think that this may be the deep lie that Pattern refers to here. Immediately after this, she makes significant progress on Veil, and Pattern learns how to use sarcasm, which to me is evidence of their deepening bond. When their bond weakens in OB, it makes a lot more sense to me in this context. Shallan isn't using her lies and creations to be herself, she's using them to run away and become someone else entirely. She's going back on this specific oath. When Shallan pulls Veil and Radiant in on the mission, when they become her helpers and companions so that she can be who she is, that's when she solidifies the Truth she spoke to Pattern. There are some other little bits--when I did my re-read, I noted every time Shallan instinctively used her powers, and it seems that it typically happens for her at crucial moments like these. Also, check out that early reference to multiple Patterns! As for Ideal 2, it could be "I killed my father, I'm a murderer", but I think it's actually in this scene here: To me, this seems like the type of Truth that would be universal for the Lightweavers as an order. If Pattern really did bond her recently, I think this is a likely candidate for Ideal 2. It's reflective of his interests as a spren and the kinds of truths he is intrigued by. He always wants to know why. Compare to the questions asked by the mysterious voice who I am increasingly certain is actually Testament: Testament, if that is who is speaking, clearly has a different approach! Her interests must be different. She wants to know what Shallan truly is, whereas Pattern concerns himself with why she is. It makes sense to me that the first Truth Shallan speaks to him has to do with why. It also loops back to that quote I started with, referring to the truth that she spoke to him. Shallan perceives herself as seeking truth--that's why she's doing what she's doing--and Pattern accepts this as truth, realizing that at this time there are truths that Shallan can't handle. This interpretation particularly improves my enjoyment of OB, since I felt I had a better understanding of what Shallan might mean when she talks about an Ideal sworn but not realized (though this could also be speaking about Testament.) At the very least, it squares the timeline for me, allowing for a living Shardblade in both the chasms and at the Oathgate. I also have an interest in puzzling through the actual Ideals Shallan may/may not have sworn and what they mean to her on a thematic level. I thought it might be fun to add to the discussion in that way, too!