insert_anagram_here

Do you mean because she appeared in 7 heartbeats instead of 10?

Are they definitely on the path to being a Radiant? @Mage of Lirigon Is this how it normally happens with all the other Radiants? Why are you so sure of this?

Seriously? Are we even reading the same books? Are you saying that Elhokar's death didn't cause any change in the story of the book? Why was Adolin asked to be king then? If it's a matter of personal perspective, from my perspective 10 POVs for the 10 SA books are way too many characters to focus on, I'd be glad if we didn't have any more side characters. Yeah, sorry to break your bubble but they are basically the three main characters of SA. We were introduced to these people from Book 1 and the focus has been on them all along because that's the main story. The reason why people are interested in these books, in any book, in the first place, is the compelling story of its main characters and not the seasoning secondary ones add to the story. Personally, I wasn't disappointed at all. I found the twist refreshing to Adolin's lukewarm character. He actually peaked my interest at that point.

@Awesomness I loved the "a theory about a theory" video! Even if it's arguments aren't exactly right, it was an interesting experience! My two cents, movies are way too different than books, mostly because of the time invested watching/reading. Also books are meant to excite your thought process a lot more than impress your visual sense. So it makes a lot more sense that a book should actually come through with it's Chekhov's guns, instead of diverging your attention to beautiful visuals of high contrast. Anyway, I just wanted to say that, with a friend's help, I've come up with a theory (without much evidence to support nor refute it) that could potentially explain Shallan's circumstances but I do not know how to express it, because it is kind of a huge tinfoilhat-y one. For anyone interested PM me.

I'm hoping that Maya will be the catalyst for Adolin. Surely I'm not the only one that finds Adolin a rather bland character. That's mostly because he doesn't seem genuinely active in all the events surrounding him. It's like things fall into his lap and he just grabs the opportunity to take part in it. He doesn't actively chose what's happening to him, not the fact that he is a prince, not the fact that he is betrothed, it's like he just falls in line to what the world is giving him. So I think the Maya's revival plot-line, even if it isn't a main character one, can give insight to Recreance's consequences to the spren and Roshar, but at the same time be a catalyst to Adolin's story and who he really is. I agree that the escalated point for Adolin's death has probably already passed but if he is meant to die, I'd love to see something interesting about him. And this Maya bit can actually be just that. Either he does revive her and he gains retribution as a character (much like Elhokar) or he fails and realizes he's not the "Prince that was Promised" after all, both I support and hope for. Anything to give him more substance.

Each person has different predispositions about different flaws and intensities of such flaws, based on their own experiences and sometimes previous trauma. That's why different combinations of people are a better match as a couple than others. For example, a person might be okay of their partner's occasional alcoholism, if that said alcoholic person shows amends but relapses. But the same person might realize it is time to get a divorce if this alcoholism turns into violence towards anyone, including other family members. Later on in life, in future relationships, they might even treat the slightest trace of alcoholism as a deal breaker. Same goes for infidelity, gambling or unlawful activity. It just depends on the people involved. Since these flaws are not always present before marriage, but most of the time emerge years after the couple has been together, they usually lead to serious issues in the relationship. Sometimes the bond between the involved ones is strong enough to surpass these, sometimes it isn't. Yes, surpassing one of these great flaws together, makes the bond of love stronger but under no circumstances I do not believe a married person is obliged to deal with their partner's issues, that is why a divorce should always be an option.

I wish I could give you multiple upvotes for that. I wasn't aware that BS has actually read the feedback on portraying mental health disorders until now. (BTW, that reddit post was changed recently so maybe that's another reason for missing it in the first place) This WOB reinforces an older thought that Radiant is the one that 'does what Shallan doesn't want, but it's what is socially acceptable' aka 'what the world wants her to be' and Veil is the one that 'does what Shallan wants, but it's not socially acceptable' aka 'who she wants to be'. So this reinforces that what we interpret as Shallan, at the end of OB, is indeed personaShallan aka 'who she should be'. Also, this distinction she has made of herself is why she pushes 'unaccepted parts of her thoughts onto Veil'. Also, we can now argue that when Adolin squeezes her hand he picks the one that Shallan 'should be' and not 'who she wants to be' (the one that stands up, whom Wit was trying to re-enforce with his advice and 'hat'). I'm not sure where you are trying to go here with this, so let me remind you that feminism isn't about what 'appears as a strong woman' necessarily but giving that freedom of independent choice to all women, without regards to social 'norms' and standards. Having Adolin chose who Shallan 'IS' is effectively stripping the choice from Shallan herself. To make the matters worse, because she is mentally incapable of deciding for herself at this point, she should've first resolved her identification problems and then, and only then, decide to get married.

Oh I agree that we aren't meant to understand Adolin as negatively as I pointed out. I think Sanderson clearly wants us to be misled through Shallan's point of view and he can always justify it using her unstable mental state. But if we look at actions said and done, which is the only way to be objective about what is happening outside Shallan's interpretation of them, things aren't so cuddly and nice as she wants them to be. On the contrary, there is an alternative way of interpreting Adolin's actions which is completely opposite to loving and understanding. The future outcome can be on any part of that spectrum. I have been in that position before in my life, when I let someone go because I felt there was someone else more appropriate for them, but honestly I wasn't really that much into them in the first place. Otherwise I would've fought a lot more to keep that special someone in my life, as I happened to do with my current SO. I still think that 'I'm going to let him have you' is definitely not the attitude of a person who is madly in love, especially after witnessing a mental breakdown of that said loved one. Again, notice the wording used here, 'I'm going to let him have you' , is about letting someone else take over, it's not about letting Shallan go, or taking a step back to give her space. This is clearly a sign that he doesn't consider Shallan's opinion as important. Why is that? Maybe it's because he realized that she's a little bit coo coo in the head? Or incapable of making the decision herself? I know Shallan takes offend and addresses the phrase herself , but that doesn't change the fact that he said it in that certain way and that his opinion is made visible through the wording used. I understand what you mean, but she never asked him to teach her. Not only she is afraid of Patternblade but it's probably because she is a Lightweaver, she isn't meant to fight in the conventional sense. If she happens to fall into a circumstance that she needs to fight a more adept swordsman than her, I'm pretty sure a few sessions with Adolin aren't going to be of any help. As I said to Phineas above, I do not think that Sanderson wanted us to interpret Adolin's action as negatively as I have in my previous comment, but if you want to judge what was said and done from an objective point of view, that isn't affected by Shallan the unreliable narrator, what I've given is the worst interpretation possible.

What bothers me about Adolin's behavior towards Shallan is that not only he fails to notice that she is deeply troubled on numerous important occasions but he turns the interactions into something about himself instead of her. (as the "braided rose" technique goes we have three of these) Teaching her to sword fight: In the WoR ending, we are noticing that Adolin's self esteem wavers since the world has 'turned around' on him. Instead of him being the prince of Alethkar, Knight Radiants now re-emerge and take the highest source of power (and the spot light). Also, turns out, his betrothed is one of them so he can't possibly break the betrothal now. Feeling inadequate for the position he decides he will take the higher ground by teaching her how to sword fight, because he assumes 'ah, she is a woman how well can she possibly fight'. (little does he know that Shallan has survived death on numerous occasions and being the underdog actually gives her even more credit on the matter) Veil's meltdown: In The Girl Who Stood Up chapter, Shallan is found after how many hours of being absent (overnight?) and he doesn't even notice how distressed she is on the inside but on the contrary, comments on her appearance, the color clash on her clothes. Much later on, in Shadesmar, when she finally gets the chance to talk to him about her inner turmoil with multiple personalities, he counters her argument with 'I killed Sadeas'. Again, he manages to turn things about him, much so that she completely fails to explain what she was trying to say in the first place. We don't even get a contributing word from him apart from 'Ash's eyes, Shallan' to acknowledge that he indeed understands her issue. Does he even believe the personalities exist at this point? It certainly felt a bit like he was avoiding to comment, deflecting with a hug and a compliment instead. Thaylen Field battle aftermath: Finally, he actually notices with his own eyes that the personalities are indeed real and are keeping her from functioning as a whole. He finally witnesses that she is fragmenting, distressed and very much troubled indeed. What is his inner thought on the matter? We don't know. Because at this point, we are witnessing her point of view and we are led through her interpretation of the exchange. She basically takes it as 'he knows me' and anchors herself on a squeeze of a hand, but what does he actually do? Did he do this consciously? Did he take up the responsibility of that anchor? No, all he ever did was say 'Something's wrong' and give her a hug. And actually, on their next conversation together he wants to break up. To me, this was his answer: 'wow she is completely nuts, time to bolt'. How does he say it? Again, he manages to bring our his own self-esteem issues, maybe jealousy of Kaladin earning her attention, losing his power over her and tells her 'I'm going to let him have you'.

Well if it is a matter of personal taste, I deeply dislike the idea that the proper Veden please-help-me persona Shallan is the 'real' one. I dislike the part of her that decided she is bad at choosing a partner for herself because she blames herself for liking Kabsal. I hate that she she was okay with letting Jasnah conveniently betroth her to what she knew then as 'a prince' and I was just as surprised as Jasnah. Veil would never allow that. Veil is the courageous one that works undercover and places herself in ways of harm to achieve her goal, that one that looks out for the dark-eyes, the compassionate for the weaker ones.

It's not going to be about the pregnancy, I think that is exactly why there will be a one year gap. I'm not excited either, but intrigued. I do not think it's the ideal outcome. On the contrary, I think it's the worst case scenario and it's better to live it through an imaginary scenario than in real life. That, on it's own, has life lessons to offer. You like to point out that Shallan is 18 and thus, kind of, inappropriate to be a mother, but I don't see how the modern social standards apply to a sort-of-medieval fantasy setting. If she is allowed of getting married at 17, having children at 18 not only seems acceptable but a natural outcome. Women are capable of being good mothers even at 16, we surely are capable of it and it was considered normal a century ago when we weren't allowed to even pursue any other interests (or pretty much have any other choice in life). I'd like to see how this plays out for her, when she has so many other interesting things to do with her time (saving the world maybe?) and at the same time suffers psychological problems (postpartum depression cocktail). I'd like to see what happens when instead of dealing her problems herself, she anchors them, along with her mental state, on another person, because surely, that's what she is going to do.

This is the main reason I hate "love triangles". There is this unspoken rule that one side is about commitment and the other is about attraction. This is what drives people to conclude from the very beginning that the 'commitment' side is the correct one. Well, guess what, you can actually have both. It's not always about giving up one over the other. They aren't mutually exclusive. And honestly, if you want to have a marriage that lasts until the end of your days, you need as much attraction as commitment to your other half. Dalinar and Navani are exactly the example of a spark that exists throughout the decades and only flames up and evolves into commitment when the circumstances are aligned. What I'm saying isn't that Shallan doesn't have attraction for Adolin, but it's something they cultivated into the relationship because the betrothal was already there. They are two healthy young people after all, it was easy to do. That doesn't exclude the possibility that from an attraction to Kalladin, she could have cultivated commitment with him, which is how most relationships work in modern life. First comes attraction, then commitment. They just didn't have enough opportunities to build that, they never thought it was an option, since she was already constrained by her betrothal to Adolin. How can we possibly judge the two relationships on equal terms when the betrothal was in effect before she even met either of them?

Yup, I think the quote you found is foreshadowing enough, along with a new generation of children being introduced throughout the books. Interestingly enough, if we match the roles to the descriptions based on the order they are given, it becomes even more ominous: soldier, scarred - happy wife, bright with excitement - mother, bloodied and in pain. I understand how young audiences can feel cringe-y with the aspect of a, probably favorite, character becoming a parent, but we don't need to project so much. It's just a story, children will not actually be harmed in the process. But I doubt the fictional ones will be harmed either. Admittedly, it would be interesting to see how parenthood will affect sensible Adolin, mentally unstable Shallan and the marriage between them. Even more interesting to see how it will all play out, when the world burns around them. (I'm not usually malevolent. At least not this much. Usually.)

Is it possible that she could be one of the Heralds and her madness the same madness that Heralds are driven by?

I still think that Cryptics could be a different kind of spren, than what the rest of the nahel spren are to the Knight Radiant orders. They appear to have a logical mind instead of being drawn to emotions, so after the Day of Recreance and the KR betrayal it's possible they are manipulating the people they nahel bond with, instead of offering blind trust in the oath (This could be why we haven't witnessed Shallan swearing the first ideal). It would make sense that they would target Elhokar as well, since he was the Kholinar king. Either way Odium corruption isn't always evident with red eyes. We had a lot of cases in the past where people were corrupted by the Unmade and I'm pretty sure they didn't have red eyes.

@Wit Beyond Measure Thank you for this thread! I love to don my tin foil hat and go off on theory tangents. PsychoShallan, a narrative imperfection, is the perfect set up in this case. She is an unreliable narrator with memory blanks, a compulsive liar to everyone, including herself. Tyn has already expressed: (WoR, page 387) This is a foreshadowing of poetic justice that could go off at some point and the fact that we, as readers, are also caught up in her own lie, will only enhance that revelation. On the other hand, all of this can also be a red herring, while someone else, very close to her, is causing all the confusion and the lying. (much like TenSoon in Well of Ascension) I have two book quotes for you that you might like: Chapter 84: The One You Can Save. Location 16127 Kindle Version. (sorry I don't have the page on my e-reader) A lot of people, myself included, have argued in the past that when Sja-anat says 'son' she refers to Glys, Renarin's spren, but how would she know that Shallan could get in contact with him. Unless, by son, Sja-anat meant someone else that is present at this point and actually always present with Shallan. Chapter 117: Champion with Nine Shadows. Location 21755 Kindle Version. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she was out of Stormlight at this point, so I'm not sure where she drew this power to Soulcast from. Either way, whatever this power was, it wanted her to feed it, which doesn't really sound like normal Surgebinding to me. In regards to your questions: 1. I believe that, since she was a little child, Shallan always had the tendency of escaping abuse by pushing reality and problems into the back of her mind, in order to keep 'the real Shallan' away from all the bad memories. I think the multiple personalities have always been an issue, 'real Shallan' always hid her other selves, maybe because she was raised in an abusive environment by parents that did not accept the child she was. All of these personalities did not have names in the past so we couldn't be aware of them as separate beings. And they only manifest when she is put under stress. The first time we know is when she names herself Veil (in WoR - page 494) which later grows into 'the darkeyed version of herself' (in WoR - page 625). Then she keeps growing out of the disguise and into a personality itself. So when Radiant is named as such (in OB - Location 3156) we realize that both Veil and Radiant were separate personalities all along. Before the distinct naming point we, as readers, could not have been aware that these personalities existed before. It's evident that she had all these other personalities when they all fought the battle of Thaylen Field in OB. In the end, the lot of them merged together and only the three main ones remained. Chapter 120: The Spear That Would Not Break. Location 22456 Kindle Version. 2. We cannot know where Shallan has heard Sja-anat's voice before because Shallan is an unreliable narrator. In Chapter 27, OB, before even encountering the Midnight Mother, she discovers a drawing that she doesn't remember drawing. So this could be the proof that another, corrupted, personality is taking over at times, without Shallan knowing. Even Pattern says 'he doesn't remember', but somehow that seems unlikely to me... 3. Is Sja-anat shocked when first sees Shallan? I'm sorry, I cannot find this reference. I did find how Shallan looked tho. What does this illusion mean? I have no idea. I could entertain the idea that Shallan is actually someone 'archaic' suffering from amnesia but at this point we are told she is raised within a family, so I cannot see it probable. 4. I think Sja-anat is the most feared of all the Unmade because she corrupts nahel spren, which are basically the source of Knight Radiant power. If their spren is untruthful, then their power can be easily corrupted by Odium unbeknownst to them. 5. Not sure if Shallan can be corrupted but I think it's possible that Pattern could already be corrupted. Actually, we know nothing about Cryptics and we haven't even seen Shallan say her first ideal. Along with her fragmented memory, there could be a whole part of her past that we have misunderstood. It's possible that corruption is part of Cryptic nature. But, there is a phrase what Sja-anat uses (OB - location 16130), she says she is 'compelled' to corrupt, so it's not necessarily intentional from her part nor from Pattern's part either. Pattern could be compelled to corrupt Shallan's mind all along, messing with her thoughts and misguiding her. (this is actually were I'm leaning the most at this point) I would also like to remind you that Shallan remembers (WoR - page 337) a light behind a painting of a storm, that we are led (by Pattern himself) to believe that it was Pattern closed off in a box. If Pattern was indeed corrupted all along, if this is part of Cryptic nature, this could unravel everything we think we know about Shallan, even that she is a Lightweaver.

Oh I love this theory and this is something that Sanderson is known to explain in detail for Roshar (just like the population of Chasmfiends on the Shattered Plains) I would argue though that instead of Rira, maybe we should consider the Purelake as a more prominent location for accumulation of debris, broken down gemhearts, investiture and salt. I think it is interesting to connect what evidence we have on Earth and apply it on the Rosharan geography, like the Dead Sea. Copied from somewhere online: Like the Dead Sea, Purelake is landlocked. Also, in Ishikk's chapter (first interlude in tWoK) it says about how Purelakers love having their feet in the water and how strange foreigners are in trying to keep themselves dry. And the fish he caught from Purelake: If tha'ts not like atium, I don't know what is.

Sorry for the late reply! It's been a few busy days! Happy Holidays to everyone! @BraidedRose Thanks! ...but I'm not sure how praising my insanity of tin hat theories is actually helping me, you are only enabling me (sounds familiar?) To answer your question:

@BraidedRose I loved your post, it's, indeed, a very good summary (as @DimChatz said already) of the most strong arguments expressed so far. To answer your question, yes, I'm very suspicious that Shallan has indeed a hidden personality that we are not aware of, but it's mostly a personal theory of mine which I've only expressed to a real life friend. When I don my tin foil hat... I've started re-reading from the first book and I've come to appreciate the huge amount of work Sanderson has put into these books. There is always something new to gain on a second read (in every storming chapter), because you are aware of a lot more information regarding Roshar and you are able to see additional meaning to all the small (and sometimes not so small) details. It's like you are shown many doors while you walk in a hallway, but the keys are given to you when you reach the end of the room. We are talking about 3k-4k pages here (still got 7 books to look forward too yay), so it's obviously not an easy task for a single person to find all these bits, much more so when that person is set on a specific theory that clouds their judgement. I understand that my own mind can fall for that same logical fallacy, that's why I try to use as much book references as possible to argue my point and theories. That's the main reason I appreciate this thread so much, because that is done here thoroughly.

Well, it wasn't exactly just a reprimand for drawing instead of taking notes, she clearly guilt tripped her into stopping her wandering eyes. But I do not see that as out of character for Jasnah, of course she would care about her family's political influence more than her ward's infatuation with someone. And I believe that's exactly what happened here, but maybe she just masked it as 'a word of advice' to Shallan. Anything else, I think, is thinking too much into it.

I admire Jasnah for what she is, raw rationality in political power, but I'm under the impression that Jasnah knew that Shallan was possibly a Knights Radiant, and that's exactly why she created the betrothal to Adolin in the first place, in order to draw that power into the Kholin family and promote their political interests. After all she is sister to the King at that point, I'm sure she would clearly care more about her immediate family than a cousin. Here is the extract from location 729, Words of Radiance.

Well if Evi is Shallan and Dalinar is Adolin and Navani is Kaladin, we end up with Kadolin and everyone wins! xD

I actually did feel Dalinar's infatuation for Navani back in WoK nonetheless. Granted it wasn't as strong as how I perceive Shallan's feelings, probably because I do project myself onto her a lot more than with Dalinar. I didn't know he was a mass murder at that point, at least it wasn't that obvious except from the fact they called him Blackthorn but I am a little older, doubting my own insanity, so that might've made him more relatable I guess.

Yes that's inexplicable. I was visualizing all Terris people as variations of Buddha. Long earlobes, bracelets, yellow clothes.

Maybe you'll need to white-list the mail servers they are using as well? I've gotten emails in the past from these: mail1.mcsignup.com, mail2.mcsignup.com, mail3.mcsignup.com , mail4.mcsignup.com