FuzzyWordsmith

So, uh. I guess this is the a good illustration of the dichotomy of the fandom. I would rehash the arguments of why Adolin doesn't know the real her, or why she has not healed but instead regressed and that an anchor is the opposite of healthy, or why dropping the Shalladin hints are jarring. I could point out why Adolin seems a bit too perfect and that Shallan is more divided than she was at the start. But it's been said multiple times in this thread by people more eloquent than myself. At the end of the day, people will interpret it how they want to interpret it. I am fascinated now though. If the people who consider this a magical happy ending turn out to be wrong, then how will they feel when it all comes crashing down in the sequels? Will the roles be reversed, with people predicting that being delighted, and people who enjoyed the sappy magic feeling betrayed? That alone makes the wait seem undearable.

So, Brandon has been suspiciously cagey on the subject of Dustbringers. I have to WoB on that. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34-arcanum-unbounded-seattle-signing/#e5902 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80-shadows-of-self-london-uk-signing/#e5318 Sorry for the wall of text, not sure how to best shorten. However, I feel like Ash being the Dustbringer feels right in the context of the following quotes. It's certainly more difficult to guess if the herald of a different order ends up the dustbringer. Plus, her madness relates to breaking things. Yay for thematic consistency. Questioner Who is the willshaper? Brandon Sanderson Ok, of the group of the ten... Questioner Have we met the Willshaper? Brandon Sanderson You have met the Willshaper. Questioner Is it Moash? Brandon Sanderson That's a RAFO. Questioner Ok. But it was a good guess? Brandon Sanderson Do you want me to write RAFO in this? You got RAFO'd. Questioner Thanks. Brandon Sanderson People are really interested in the Willshapers. Has this been a topic of conversation? Other person *inaudible*...17th Shard. *inaudible* Brandon Sanderson Yeah, right. The Dustbringer is harder to figure out, I feel like the Willshaper will be a little more obvious once it happens. The Dustbringer is going to be hard. Questioner Have we... I think you mentioned in a previous signing that we’d already met one member of every Order of the Knights Radiant. Brandon Sanderson Yes, I think you have. Questioner My question is, have we met two Edgedancers? And is one of the Dustbringers a viewpoint character? Brandon Sanderson One of the Dustbringers is eventually a point-of-view character. Questioner Haven’t been yet? Brandon Sanderson No, not yet, I don’t think. But it depends if you count the Heralds as members of their order. Questioner I don’t. Brandon Sanderson Oh, see I would, because they’re kind of heads of their Order. If you don’t count them you have not met some from every Order. Questioner Have we met someone from the Dustbringers? Brandon Sanderson Well… Dustbringers are really complicated. Really complicated. So that’s the weird one. Okay? So let’s shelve that one. You’ll see why it’s really weird later on.

So, here's the thing. I have seen more than one person express similar complaints about Hoid. I feel like if you have a problem with him, you're going to have major problems down the line. Because at the end of the day, Hoid is the soul of the Cosmere. He is the primary bridge between worlds. One could make an arguement that he is not intruding in the Stormlight Archive, but that Dalinar and co. are intruding on his story. I feel like if we were reading from his perspective instead, we would be saying similar things about Altethi politics and Rosharan Lightweavers intruding on Hoid's story. At the end of the day, Hoid is the closest thing the Cosmere overall has to a main character. Stormlight is the tipping point, where things apparently start heading for full crossover. If that's the case, then Hoid is going to start showing up and interfering more as the books go on. If you have a problem with some relatively minor "intrusions" here, you may not like where the Cosmere is headed. Because like it or not, Hoid is here to stay. At the very least until Mistborn space opera.

So, I have two unrelated points to make. One of which is probably better on another thread, but I can't find an appropriate one. The first point is this: I don't think we can consider Kaladin/Syl to be a typical Radiant/Spren bond. Look at Pattern, or Ivory, or Wyndle. None of them are nearly as close as Kaladin/Syl, at least from the PoVs we get. Some of the Orders' spren were chosen by committee, for crying out loud! I feel like the more standard situation was them considering their spren like colleagues and/or police partner. Something more professional. That is strongly suggested by the modern day Skybreakers. So I think the idea of them killing their spren is not as far-fetched as it seems, simply because they might have seen it as a necessary sacrifice. The level of intimacy that Kaladin and Syl have seems far from typical to me. The second comment is based on this post: So, here's the thing. I have seen more than one person express similar complaints about Hoid. I feel like if you have a problem with him, you're going to have major problems down the line. Because at the end of the day, Hoid is the soul of the Cosmere. He is the primary bridge between worlds. One could make an arguement that he is not intruding in the Stormlight Archive, but that Dalinar and co. are intruding on his story. I feel like if we were reading from his perspective instead, we would be saying similar things about Altethi politics and Rosharan Lightweavers intruding on Hoid's story. At the end of the day, Hoid is the closest thing the Cosmere overall has to a main character. Stormlight is the tipping point, where things apparently start heading for full crossover. If that's the case, then Hoid is going to start showing up and interfering more as the books go on. If you have a problem with some relatively minor "intrusions" here, you may not like where the Cosmere is headed. Because like it or not, Hoid is here to stay. At the very least until Mistborn space opera.

I just understood something in that case. The reason so many people consider this to not be organic is because it is different from Sanderson's other works. A lot of people here have read almost all, if not all, of his work. As a result, we see patterns that persist over a larger sample size. This may be the reason for our differences on the issues. I respect your opinion, and I think your reasoning is valid. However, there are people here who are used to thinking of the entire cosmere as his series, as opposed to just the Stormlight Archive. As a result, people are using reasoning related to his other series with SA, under the reasoning that it's all the same sequence at the end of the day.

This brings up I think the best summation of opinions on this plot. There is a large subset of people, particularly on tumblr and reddit, who don't consider the decision to be awkward, or the emotions to be mismanaged. Those people think this was all intentional, and everything is fine now. What a lot of people on this thread are worried about is that they're right, that these things will go nowhere. That's the primary issue people seem to have. The issue is that we're worried it wasn't hinting to events in the sequel, but instead is meant to be taken at face value. Many people here would be happy to have the bolded issues be present in the sequels. We're more worried about what happens if they're not.

So, we're walking a fine line here. At what point does a fantasy novel become too unrealistic? Conversely, how much realism is acceptable for a fantasy novel? These are not immutable, but at the end of the day, it is a balancing act. I have seen just as many criticisms of fantasy being too realistic as I have criticisms of fantasy not having enough realism. I believe it comes down to personal taste. For some people, fantasy is about escape, and should not be realistic at all. For others, fantasy is just another way of looking at reality, and should behave accordingly. There are plenty of people on the spectrum in between. The reason people feel that Kaladin should be fulfilled romantically is simply because that's how things go in fiction. In reality, people can spend their whole lives alone, but in a work of fiction, this is a relatively rare case, especially for main characters. As to Sanderson changing his approach: He is allowed to, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, what struck people is that he doesn't typically do this, and it was a jarring shift. You know the saying about insanity being doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results? It's that sort of sentiment. If a cafe you frequent opens every single day at 9AM sharp, the day that it doesn't open till noon is going to stand out. People react to that sort of thing.

I'm calling it. StickXHoid. Here's the thing. Hoid is many people. But the stick is a stick. They are the perfect pair. Between them, they have the chops for any situation. Besides, do you have any idea how much Hoid could learn from the stick. He is not a stick. But the Stick is a Stick. They could spend hours of philosophical discourse on being a stick, and in the end, Hoid can learn the one disguise he has never truly mastered: Being a stick. How do we know he hasn't mastered it? Because he is not a stick. Together, they can overthrow the shards, combine the power into the only vessel who deserves to handle it, and give people their new, perfect god: STICKDONALSIUM

You know, I now have a strong worry that Liar is completely non-canon now and that Midius is just another alias of Hoid, as opposed to his real name. If it isn't an alias, then that has to mean he used his real name with the heralds. Whatever it is, it proves that Hoid was on speaking terms with the Heralds, enough to call each other by name.

I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick.

As a point to this: There were humans before the Shattering. Or at least, humanlike humanoids who were human enough to be called humans and give birth to a race of humans. WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/188-general-reddit-2015/#e3922 HorseCannon I didn't realize horneaters had parshmen blood, didn't even realize that was possible. How closely are humans and parshmen related, do they have a common ancestor? Or is one an artificially created version of the other? Brandon Sanderson There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.) Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium. ccstat Are there Aimian-Human hybrids as well? (Either type of Aimian) If so, are the Thaylen people one of these? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. Blightsong *via private message* Some of us believe that you are saying that humans and listeners existed pre-Shattering while some of us believe that you are saying that Horneaters and Herdazians existed pre-Shattering (you have mentioned that humans had been on Roshar since before the Shattering recently). What were you trying to say here? Brandon Sanderson Humans (other than those on Yolen) existed pre-Shattering, as did parshmen.

I believe this is being discussed here: At the very least, there's a lot of overlap with what you're saying. Check out that thread maybe?

Well, yes. I may have not explained properly. What I meant is that him not healing as much makes sense because he had access to less Stormlight. I was not trying to use that situation as a baseline, I meant to show that he had Stormlight, but on the lower end of the healing scale. I probably just didn't say it clearly in that case.

As to Kaladin in the highstorm: yes, he had one sphere, but remember, it was in the middle of a highstorm. That would mean that the sphere was gaining stormlight as fast as he was draining it, similar to how he can ride a highstorm to go further than normal. As a result, while still significant, it's made more realistic by the constant recharging.

He unbonded it at the end of Words of Radiance when he bonded the Stormfather. He promised the Stormfather to not use a dead blade, unbonded that one and has been going around bladeless. We don't know what happened to that blade specifically, but it was not brought up again in OB.

I think you are onto something though. Lift heals a LOT slower than Renarin does. Also, he is explicitly noted as being crushed by the thunderclast. This may be in a chapter of questionable canonicity, but didn't Jasnah say that a crushing blow to the head would be enough to kill a radiant with stormlight? Based on the description, it seems like Renarin was damaged a LOT more than that but ended up fine. There may be something here. Also, can I just gush about Renarin further and say he is possibly one of the most physically and mentally resilient characters in the series? Most Radiants can hold a dead blades for a few seconds before dropping it, but Renarin managed to keep one in close proximity for a WEEK to bond it as well as holding it with little more than a wince and a grimace. Even Dalinar couldn't hold one for long. That, and he just shrugs off being crushed. The closest comparison we have is Kaladin being hit by the giant club, and that nearly knocked him out. Renarin just kept going like nothing happened. He's the best!

Actually, there is a very good reason this might be the case: Gemhearts. Gems are where stormlight, and presumably voidlight are best held. We know Chasmfiends and there ilk can regenerate and hold stormlight in there gemhearts very efficiently. That's probably the primary difference. If the Fused hold the Investiture in their Gemhearts, which I'm pretty sure has been implied, it would make perfect sense that it leaks much more slowly than humans.

So, a few points. I don't think anyone is saying that marriage makes someone stop growing. I think what worries people is that Shallan will use the marriage as an excuse to stop growing. In addition, the fact that she had to take control of Veil in the first place is actually the issue. A sign of resolution would be that Veil did not need to be reined in. And as to other characters still working on issues: I agree that other characters aren't done growing. However, one thing is noticeable; Shallan is the only person who remains regressed by the end of a book. Kaladin breaks his oaths and regresses in WoR. However, by the end of the book, he is better than he was in the beginning. Dalinar turns back to alcohol. But by the end of the book, he is at the best place he has been in his entire life. Shallan, so far, is the only member of the main three who ends a book worse off in her development than she was at the beginning of the book. I feel like a lot of things started going downhill after the Re-Shephir incident. This criticism is completely valid. IRL, moving forward and growing up is a slow, difficult process. But as I said, the reason people are responding like this is because that was not how it worked in the series up until this point. I'm pretty sure the majority of Sanderson's books follow the whole rise-fall-rise back up dynamic. Sazed did it. Elend did it. Wax, to an extent is doing it. There are other examples, but my point is that while it's a little unrealistic, it is the norm in most fiction, including Sanderson's. That's why this is a bit surprising.

Oh, I think we misunderstood each other. I don't think it was Evi that Odium was talking about. I think it was either Honor, or Adonalsium. I am much more convinced it was Adonalsium, because I don't think that Odium feared Honor that much. He certainly wouldn't want to fight him, but Rayse seemed to be crapping his pants. My thoughts on the "we" are that either he meant the other Shards killing Adonalsium, or that Cultivation helped him kill Honor. I posted my reasoning for it upthread, and in another thread about Honor's death.

Raysium follows Atium and Lerasium. We know Harmonium would have actually been called Sazedium if Sazed hadn't objected.

Well, the strongest possibility is the Everstorm, the same way Highstorms provide stormlight. In addition, that explains why the Everstorm was stationary above Thaylen City during that battle. Bolded: Not at all. This is what happens when the mists power Allomancy on Scadrial, i.e. Vin and Elend at certain climactic points. In addition, this is how the Honorblades and Heralds used to work. WoB here: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117-boskone-54/#e1572 Steeldancer The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor? Brandon Sanderson Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence. Steeldancer Like Vin and Elend? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do. Steeldancer The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson RAFO

To answer the bolded: If it was any other author, I'd agree with you. But he literally put the ending of the three-book Mistborn original trilogy in the first page of the series. This would not be even close to the first time he has hidden something as major as that.

I guess my point was not more widely societal, and not considering the fanatics. My point was that if someone tries to give Renarin guff about being a scholar, he can point to his father, as a Warrior learning to read, and at Jasnah, as the queen who is an atheist. To me, it's more about Renarin, and people like him, gaining a confidence boost because some major people in positions of power and renown have taken the first step, meaning it becomes easier for more people to do the same. Society will push back, but Dalinar can become someone to rally behind as an example.

I admit that the fourth law may end up being what makes this unviable. It probably has something to do with how to make Investiture Finite but also renewable. Because it seems like the system as we know it has some loopholes by which shards might be able to grow more powerful than they're supposed to. There is also some room for some really crazy positive-feedback loops which seem problematic.

So, I am not that fond of confrontation, but I feel there are some things I would like to address. I'm not used to longer form posts, so I apologize if this isn't too well formed. I know it's been stated before, but the primary problem isn't her having kids. It's her having kids while still suffering from OSDD that she is not taking steps to treat. I am personally not worried about Shallan here. I am worried for the child. I guarantee that if Shallan had a child, it would be worse of than Adolin and Renarin were with Dalinar. This is something I just can't agree with. She is at a stage with OSDD where she fully believes that her personas are individual people. I cannot read her having a full conversation with Veil and Radiant and accept that she sees them as merely disguises. And while you say Brandon couldn't afford writing another book about Kaladin's depression, I think that is a major oversimplification of the issue. He has a major depressive episode in OB. His seasonal affective disorder is in play in part one. They remain a part of his character. He is getting over them, but at no point do they just go away and stop being a part of his character arc. For him to do that with Shallan, and not Kaladin seems to make no sense to me. So, the beginning of this quote kinda makes me think that this may be the wrong series for you. The basic premise of the Knights Radiant is the idea of broken people becoming better. The inherent premise requires a LOT of self-reflection and navel-gazing. That is the POINT of the character arcs in this book. If you find Dalinar to be a selfish person after all he has done to change himself, then I wonder what selflessness even looks like. In addition, that is what mental health issues are about. One of the first things in treatment of a mental health issue is to focus only on yourself and your own pain. The main ethos is that you can't help anyone if you haven't helped yourself which incidentally, is what Shallan thinks she is doing. As to the bolded segment of the quote: There are two primary problems with this line of reasoning. The first is that having a child does not magically make someone a better person. There is no reason to believe that a selfish person will automatically become selfless because of having a child. There are plenty of people who smoke and drink while pregnant, there are plenty of mother's who don't give a crap about their babies. The number of mothers who actually kill or severely harm their babies, whether intentionally or through neglect is depressingly high. If someone consider's themselves "the centre of the universe", becoming a mother is not necessarily gonna change that. The second issue is that OSDD is by definition a condition whose treatment requires introspection, and the ability to put yourself first. She NEEDS to think about her problems. Her condition arises from repressing her problems instead of thinking about them. If nothing else, a baby would give her an excuse for regressing and repressing. To reiterate, the entire point of being a Radiant is focusing on and solving your internal problems. If you feel this is a narrative issue, I feel like this may be the wrong series for you, because that is one of the main purposes of the narrative. So, I feel it should be brought up that this is within Jasnah's rights to do as a human and a woman. There are people like this IRL. I understand if you find her uninteresting, but I don't think she becomes a lesser person for feeling how she does about inter-personal relationships. @mariapapadia So, I believe I may have worded my feelings poorly if this is what you took away from it. I should explain that OSDD is a very personal topic for me, and when I talked about Brandon failing, I didn't mean as an author generally. I still think he is an excellent author, one of the best of our time. However, I would feel as if he had failed me personally if this is how he handled it. It was because of how personal this subject and this arc is that I feel that way, but I do not think everyone will or even should consider it as such. I should have clarified that it was my specific feelings on the matter, not a general statement. So, the point of the book seems to be solving personal issues. That has been the point of every single narrative in the series so far. Furthermore, treating OSDD is done almost exclusively through navel gazing, and thinking about only yourself. That is literally the medical solution to that. If that is your issue with the narrative, than I must reiterate that I don't understand if this is the right series for you. As someone who has had the exact same mental condition Shallan is going through, I must vehemently disagree that she is not unstable and she is progressing instead of regressing. In addition, no one else managed and solved their personal issues off screen. Again, this seems to be the point of the books. Why would we not read about Shallan's case? Dalinar at this point in his life is one of the LEAST selfish and self-absorbed people in the book. He does think of how badly he treated his sons. If you consider the narrative boring, then I must ask you: What makes you enjoy the Stormlight Archive? Your problems seem to be with some of the main pillars of the series. Epic fantasy as a genre inherently puts less focus on small scale dynamics than it does on things like saving the world.