Wyndle88

Hence Shinovar was the location humans who arrived from Ashyn were given to live in Roshar by the original inhabitants of the world, the Singers. Humans came and for a time they lived peacefully in Shinovar. Some of these humans already had a lot of power, as it is implied that Ashyn was destroyed due to uncontrolled surgebinding. The Heralds came with these people. When humans came on Roshar, Honor and Cultivation were the Gods of the Singers and as humans came Odium came with them to Roshar. The humans had Heralds among them. Meaning 5 men and 5 women among the people were Surgebinders. They were given the land protected by mountains ranges on both sides thus protected from the highstorm. But "when has humans ever become happy with what they were given? " Stormfather asks this of Dalinar..Roshar we know is a land of gemstones. The humans coveted the wealth of gemstones all over Roshar. So my theory is that the humans broke the agreement and started settling on other locations all over Roshar increasing in numbers until the humans as living in the land started to forget they were from Ashyn and thought of themselves as original inhabitants of the land. Ishar among the Heralds is said to be of bald head and also acts as their Bondsmith in radiant terms but as per human terms a Bondsmith would be a "Shaman" who converses with their Gods. Maybe Ishar stayed back in Shinovar. Maybe the Shin keep a bald head to show respect to the Herald who stuck with the agreement. Desolation the word itself means to scour the land of life or being left all alone with nothing remaining. With that logic, it implies when the first one came , it would be after the switch of the Gods happened. What are Gods God to? The Gods of Roshar, Honor and Cultivation, were originally the Gods of the Singers. Then one day, humans came and out of mercy for the humans they were allocated land to live in. They looked so fragile without shells to protect them from highstorms etc. Singers change form by attracting the correct Spren in a highstorm. Which humans can't do. Thus as humans increased in numbers they started worshipping Honor and Cultivation as well. This is what caused the swap of Gods. Earlier Odium was helping humans to take over the land, this he could do only subtly. Naturally humans wanted to expand. But once humans populated the land, Honor and Cultivation became their gods as they were the major population of the land, building large cities with Surgebinding (cymatics kabsal shows) and with their Gods help. The singers felt betrayed as they were the original inhabitants of the land and now their own Gods have forsaken them. This shows Honor and Cultivation gave their allegiance to humans under the "Right of Conquest". But the Desolations were Odium helping the Singers to get the land back by destroying the humans thus ensuring a populace who will ensure to continue worship him as a God and also this justifies his act of killing Honor and Cultivation through the "Right of Conquest" which they themselves believe in. So the whole situation in Roshar, looks like an intense chess game between the Shards to see who will win and who will claim the system as their own. I know it's a lot of jumbled up theories crammed into one. But I was thinking more of a big picture way and had to cram several things into this one to make sense of the timeline. Also I think the survivors of Ashyn came to Roshar via Shadesmar, hence the Guardian Spren of Oathgates refusing to transport Shallan as ordered by Parent (Honor).. as mass human emigration was what led to Roshar being occupied in the first place screwing up the system alert set on Roshar What do you guys think?

During the visions from Honor, Dalinar visits a Kholinar just after the Desolations. Kholinar depicted there is shown with a huge windblades formation as part of the topography. I believe the palace section is built in to this if I remember it correctly. 2nd place I remember windblades is Aimia. When the ship goes past the storm, the group on 3 dinghies and a Soulcaster, she notices that one of the preventive measures taken were these huge windblades and the air made stone on top of these windblades or something. I also think there is mention of windblades in Urithiru base . Could be wrong there. Do you people think it's a natural formation or something related to Honor or any other theories?

Is there any chance Urithiru is on top of the Horneaters Peak , Near Cultivation' Perpendicularity?

I somehow thought it was the other way around. I thought as Shards weakened their access to the three Realms reduced. As in Dominion and Devotion got pushed out of the spiritual and ended influencing just Cognitive and Physical. In the case of Honor, Tanavast started investure in a lot of projects, like Oathpact and Urithiru ,thus making him more weak cutting off from spiritual and cognitive realms subsequently and finally so weak that he merged into Stormfather. So I thought Cultivation was powerful enough to access Cognitive and Physical Realms but not Spiritual. Also She met Dalinar. If anyone could make me understand how I'm getting it wrong would be much appreciated.

Who created Urithiru? The strategic importance of Urithiru cannot be stressed enough. The Oathgates system cannot be held by the enemy. If that happens, all hope is lost. My question is when was it made? I say made and not built as I don't think it's humanely possible to build this. Was it made by Honor to help the Heralds? I don't think so. My guess is Honor did not forsee the weakness of humans when he made the Oathpact and Honorblades. His plan turned out to be full of holes. So Cultivation took a hand in saving the planet. She lent a part of the power and helped Honor in making the Sibling group of Sprens. This was done as Honor and Cultivation made new plans based on actions of spren making Knight Radiants. So Urithiru was actually for Radiants and not Heralds. Each order was given a set of gemstones that make an Oathgate which has connection to a Spren of Urithiru. What do you guys think?

Kholinar Oathgate Spren was corrupted by Sja-Anat. She says so to Shallan . Then when Shallan tried to use it, escaping from Kholinar with others, the reach Shadesmar. So Sja-Anat claim seems true. We also know the Guardian Sprens of the Oathgate are very particular about following the rules of the Parent which is Honor. So maybe Sja Anat through Odium was testing Urithiru defences by trying to create a diversion so that no help is received to Thaylen City from Urithiru. But since there were a forces assembled they didn't want to risk them going to Kholinar at the same time.

This makes perfect sense if of one of my theories. That Sibling is a collection of Guardian Sprens of Oathgates and a main one for Urithiru. The mural depicts the creation of Sibling. Oathgates has two huge Sprens. These sprens are in in a gemstone. Thus each Oathgate is represented as one particular Spren making it 10, plus the Oathgate at Urithiru represented as 11th and the last one the Sibling itself which is the Spren for Urithiru itself. One possible means of activating Sibling could be done after each of the Oathgate has been activated. Thus Sibling started to slumber once the Oathgate at Narak was used less and less. Maybe for Sibling's involvement all Oathgates have to be used periodically. At least most.

The blades are what that lets them forget the torture steadying their mind by connecting to Spiritual Realm, That's why Nale was still able to perform his duties. But other Heralds gave up the blades and gave up the Oathpact in turn their Oaths to Honor was betrayed. This in turn made Honor change but there is still hope in the case of Taln as he upheld the Oathpact honourably and now he is back. If his Honorblade is returned to him then he will gain awareness and won't be a rambling madman. Honor changing is also mentioned as reason for Sibling slumbering. I think the Heralds were also entrusted with the keeping of Oathgates gemstones. Knights Radiant were a byproduct of spren copying what Honor did. It wasn't Honor's intention to create Knight Radiants. His plan include just Heralds and men. When they say Honor is dead . What does it actually mean. I think Honor is only present in the Physical Realm now. He was present in the Cognitive Realm before but I think he got pushed out due to some action that required a lot of Investiture. He realised his original plan wasn't working. The Heralds were bringing Desolations more easily by succumbing to torture more easily than before. Also humans were loosing more technology and culture with each passing desolations. So he had to do something to ensure victory to humans. The strategic importance of Urithiru as a command center cannot be stressed. Whomsoever controls Urithiru controls Roshar. So Honor created Urithiru with the help of Cultivation. Honor was already heavily invested in Roshar. This action further lessens his power and pushes him to the Physical Realm and into his biggest Spren. This is the reason in the Cognitive Realm highstorm is very light. The act of making Urithiru also weakened Cultivation. But she is at present like Dominion and Devotion. Confined to cognitive realm I guess. As in she can hurt Odium if he comes to the Physical Realm and tries to hurt the vessel of Honor. Hence the reason Odium fled as soon as Dalinar opened the perpendicularity.

I am just trying to piece together some thoughts... There are 10 Heralds on Roshar. There has been nine Desolations. Taln never once succumbed to torture in all these past times. This time he alone gave humans 4500 years. We also know that there are 8 Unmade for sure but the 9th one is unaccounted. We know the Heralds are sent to Braize to endure torture via Oathpact after their death. We know for sure all Heralds are insane at the moment. Nin and Ash think Ishar to be sane. But all are infact insane. I mean Odium is in Braize so if the Heralds are sent there after death then the Heralds have little chance. Thus this means the Oathpact itself was a stopgap measure by Honor and which was very fragile. Also we have accounts of different unmade appearing as Odium's generals during previous desolations and one Unmade repeating several times . That means until a leader among the Heralds broke, they couldn't make an appropriate Unmade. So Odium splintered 8 times that we know of. Ninth suspected. Thus Odium made Unmade for each of the Heralds except Taln and Ishar as there is no appropriate Unmade' power revealed to be matched with Bondsmith. When we look at Venli in Oathbringer, she had fused with a 2nd grade void Spren thus becoming not a full blown Fused, but a 2nd grade Regal. So torture in Braize would be grades of pain as well. To see who would crumble from different tortures. Maybe some are phycological ensuring in the creation of more aware Unmade. The longer the torture endured better the Unmade that was created. Also my guess is that all 10 Heralds are required to make an Unmade. Also the minimum time required to bring on a Desolation is equal to the time least time it required for any of the Heralds to break in any of the previous tortures. I think Ishar realized this, thus broke sooner the second time thus creating a lesser powered Unmade also the Desolations approaching as fewer as ten years apart. Heralds realized normally couple or all of them dies during the war. This time only Taln died. He is the one who never succumbed to tortures. Oathpact would work even with one Herald dying. So that was the best decision they could take at that point as the next desolations would have been less than 10 years and humans had to rebuild and what they needed was time. So their sacrifice of Taln makes more impact. That by dying they were actually making it easy for Odium and by living and living in madness, as they live through Oathpact visions. I believe the Heralds are memory wiped from events of Braize but it activates as Oathpact activate and their madness during the torture of Thier own respective breaking. This time no unmade was created since it takes all tens powers to be in Braize. Odium couldn't figure out Ishar because he broke before Odium personally had a crack at him. Maybe Ishar succumbed to a Fused or something.

Kaladin hit rock bottom when he decided to jump of a chasm before his powers manifested. Moash hit rock bottom when he became a slave again to Fused even after getting his own Shards. Kaladin hates the greed Shards bring to a person. One is normally elevated upon becoming a Shardbearer. It is automatically makes him a land owner as well. I'm sure Moash was also allocated a piece of land when Kaladin have the shards to him in WoR. So every opportunity he is given to redeem himself, he ends up for lack of a better word plunges more into the dark side. Once enslaved by the Fused, he is appreciated for display of Passions. But otherwise is left alone bby the Fused unless they have a specific task he has to perform. He has become so uncaring towards the world that he is the only human inside Kholinar without supervision by Fused and even stabs a Herald which he asks Ahu. Everyone knows the Heralds were the good guys and helped humans in the past. Their religion revolves around it. But then to kill a Herald shows a serious lack of care from Moash. With the Essence of Jezrien captured in the Sapphire, Odium now has the perfect Leader in a gemstone.

@ChickenLiberty "It could explain how it was possible for the Order of Bondsmiths to increase in size." It explains how it won't be not more than 3 actually. One Bondsmith via 3 main Sprens on Roshar. Stormfather, Nightcrawler and Sibling. But if there has to be more Bondsmith then the Spren associated with has to be of that much power. Theoretically the only options are each of the Sprens in the collection of Sibling which includes the Sprens of the Oathgate. But those Guardian Sprens won't disobey orders from 'Parent' Honor. Such that these kinda talks are close to being seditious. Meaning going against authority. Which is Honor=Parent. Thus more Bondsmiths are not possible in reality.

In that case maybe they In that case they found the gemstone without the Spren inside. So maybe Sibling is at Urithiru, Shadesmar.

Renarin and Navani tried to infuse one gemstone of no particular import. The Oathgates gemstones are particularly mentioned to be of specific types. Also Guardian Spren seemed to be of different colours in Kholinar and Thaylen City. Suggesting different types to gemstones. Or the colour change is attributed to Sja-anat corrupting the Guardian Spren I'm not sure. Thus the main Urithiru gemstone has to be discovered first and then infused. I suspect it to be a gemstone at the base of the tower from mention somewhere that the Sibling retreated ...maybe to the depths of Urithiru.

So activating all the Oathgates could awaken it.

Also I am new to 17th Shard. I am not at all knowledgeable about the flowchart of Surges or how they get connected.

In Oathbringer So while trying to escape from Shadesmar, Shallan is told by the Oathgate Guardian spren that they can't let her in as orders received from "Parent" identified as Honor.....also Stormfather refers to Sibling as "Them".... Urithiru is connected to all these other places via Oathgate(Oaths associated with Honor) which in turn has these huge Guardian Sprens....so my deduction is the whole system of Oathgates is the "Sibling" with the head spren living in Urithiru as the Spren of the tower. And that Spren is slumbering. 1. The name "Sibling" At first I thought Sibling meant one among 3 super Spren of Roshar. Stormfather, Nightwatcher and their sibling. But Sibling is by itself one among others. Sibling is not the sibling of Nightwatcher and Stormfather....it is a sibling of Urithiru and Oathgates. 2. Stormfather calling Sibling as "them" Which suggests a group. A collection of spren. In Oathbringer, during battle of Thaylen City, we see Odium giving specific instructions to secure the Oathgate. If that's not possible then to destroy it. He also says as long as the gemstones of the Oathgate are intact they can be rebuilt in another location. This statement made by Odium suggests that the Guardian spren of the Oathgate is contained in these special gemstones. There are 10 Oathgates connected to Urithiru and there is a Spren for the tower as well. So this whole collection of gemstone Sprens are the Sibling hence can be called as Them. 3. Honor being "Parent" Honor died. He did something to weaken and his remaining power went to Stormfather thus awakening him. I think after several Desolations, humans were losing very badly even with Radiants. So he created Urithiru for them. In Oathbringer Shallan and Dalinar notices the way the crem seemed to has distinct features as strata found in rocks exposed to storms on shattered plains or something along those lines....so Urithiru was created by Honor for the Radiants so they could strategize. Each ten orders of the Knight Radiants were given different set of Oathgate gemstones which Honor created. Connecting all ten to Urithiru which contains Sibling the superspren maybe at base of Tower not yet discovered. Also Oaths are a thing of Honor. This is the act that maybe weakened Honor. At present the Sibling is "Slumbering"...if above deduction is right then Sibling is also a collection of gemstones. So to activate it, Stormlight. Highstorm doesn't reach Urithiru or it is very weak above the clouds....so to activate Sibling, Dalinar will have to open Honor's Perpendicularity on top of the tower thereby activating all the gemstones in the tower and the super gemstone containing Sibling awakening the whole tower. Does this sound credible to you guys?

Omg.... didn't connect with Mistborn spoilers....yeah Odium wouldn't do that....Also when Dalinar and Odium was discussing the deal...only confirmed part is Odium will agree to appoint a champion. The part about Dalinar being Odium champion was rejected by Dalinar and without a proper agreement with correct specific words with intent has not been agreed between Dalinar and Odium. So I'm not very convinced Dalinar as Odium champion.

If a Radiant is killed the respective spren becomes weak and loses Sentience right? It is mentioned in Oathbringer that Honor changed ...before Recreance...if Szeth is a new type of Skybreaker, Dalinar is the champion of the new Honor. Previous Bondsmiths couldn't do what he did as Unity by creating Honor's Perpendicularity(HP) in Thaylen City. So maybe Odium will find another Champion who with His current knowledge will have to go against HP weilding Dalinar. So if the champion induces a perpendicularity will that weaken Odium in Braize?

Sorry Double post by mistake. First time posting. So If Odium appoints a champion and gets defeated does that make Odium weak enough for Cultivation to attack ?

Was Braize Damnation prior Odium being concentrated there? Was Braize Damnation prior Odium being concentrated there?

I thought they literally picked up 16 pieces of Adonalsium and got in turn invested by the intent of the particular Shard post Asension.

I thought if he came physically to Roshar, Cultivation would end him.

I don't know if this had been mentioned before. In chapter 1 of WoTK the 9 remaining Heralds sacrificed Taln and the Oathpact. It has been 4500 years since. At present all heralds are mad. Even if one or more thinks one is sane (Ishar) they are all insane. I can't remember who says the actions of their betrayal that didn't go the way they thought. So maybe the Oathpact was still active and they are going mad because Taln was getting tortured in Damnation. Honorblades have pieces of soul of Honor. So maybe Heralds are connected to each other through spiritual realm via their respective Honorblades. Szeth practiced all ten surges using the 8 honorblades the Shin have. I'm not sure how he got this right among the Shin people. Maybe he is Royalty / winner of competition to see who gets trained ( he has nostalgia regarding Skybreaker tests) ....so he trains with Honorblades on all ten surges but with association started connecting to Spiritual realm thus started to hear voices of people he killed with the blades.... What do u guys think?

I don't know if this has been discussed before. This is my first post. I just read Oathbringer 2nd time. First was when it released. So I'm not up to date on several factors. I have only read stormlight, mistborn and warbreaker. I don't know about other shards other than from what I looked up online which is plenty. So here goes: We know that Honor wants Odium to appoint a champion. Thus making it a war between champions so to speak. So imagine if Odium appoints a champion. And this person in turn created Odium's perpendicularity on Roshar. In that moment when Odium is literally concentrated on Roshar and his shard is unguarded maybe it's possible for Hoid to reach Braize and destroy the shard of Odium.