Rainier

I think it has to do with the nature of the Nahel bond. This isn't just two random people who meet and like each other, Kaladin literally gives Syl sentience through the bond. Without him, she's mindless windspren, but together, and with the oaths, they're something amazing and powerful. So Syl is risking her life for intelligence and this bond. Crossing that relationship with the baser physical and even emotional characteristics of a relationship just seems unholy or blasphemous. It's not just that I don't think it will happen in the books, it's that it demeans the Nahel bond they have.

I'm glad at least one person mentioned this in a positive manner. Earlier when it was mentioned was mostly to bemoan Adolin for thinking he can just give her away, but to me that small section was what I had expected the entire book. Why make a point of Kaladin and Shallan longing over each other for the whole freaking book if not to have other characters notice? Adolin was rightly thinking that Shallan wasn't fully invested in a relationship with him, and rightly wary of marrying someone who so clearly has eyes for another. Shallan, bless her heart, did what she always does: lies through her ducking teeth, and insists it isn't really a lie. This scene was the Good Ship Shalladin was about to lay anchor at port, but instead ran aground of some rocks. As for the rest, I don't really care if Adolin is good or bad. I got into his alignment earlier, but I greatly approve of his murder of Sadeas, and when the apocalypse is looming life becomes cheap. It's not very Radiant of him, but not everyone needs to be Radiant, and not all magic is so constrained and Honor's bond. I think killing Sadeas is something that Adolin is glad he did, enjoyed doing, but wishes he didn't have to do. And none of those are contradictory.

Neither are Ryshadium. Sure, Ryshadium equine and not hominid, but we don't care about that because, again, Syl doesn't even inhabit the same realm, never mind the sharing the same basic anatomy. At least Dalinar and Gallant are both mammals... Sure he can. Ryshadium aren't horses and they are intelligent and sentient. That was the whole point of using it as an example: two intelligent and sentient species that are storming gross to ship together. That's exactly how I feel about human-spren relations. The Nahel bond is actually a lot like humans and Ryshadium, in that way. There's some sort of bond between individuals, but it's a unique and special bond that shouldn't be sullied or muddied with romantic and sexual aspects. What would you call bestiality if not inter-species relationships? Would you cut off the sentient species? I've already argued that Ryshadium should be on the human side of that cutoff, and I believe it's true. So Dalinar and Gallant are both thinking beings not related to each other, they already have a Very Special Bond, why shouldn't I compare it to Kaladin and Syl? It's not the word I used, it's what you used to describe my example of Dalinar/Gallant. I'll admit to the juxtaposition for the very reason that it's taboo because that's how I feel about Kaladin and Syl. It wasn't to shame anyone, but rather to express my own discomfort at the thought. Not sure where incest came from, but in general I'd find consensual incest to be more palatable than Kaladin trying to have sex with Syl, or, god forbid, the reverse. I've got no problem with a pretty Syl, and I'd even expect it, but trying to shoehorn the regular human-human sexual urges, customs, and expectations into the very special human-spren bond strikes me as both taboo and blasphemous.

Honestly I find this super gross, like if people were rooting for Dalinar to marry Gallant or something. She's not human, she's not even a part of the same realm as Kaladin, and you want them to...what exactly? Get married? Start a family? Live happily ever after? Syl's life is already in his hands, and she's already going to outlive him unless he kills her first. You want to add a romantic angle to this already fraught relationship? No thanks. She's his spren, not his lover, and I hope we keep it that way. But, if you want to see what some other people have to say, check out this other thread: Some people over there brought up the Syladin possibility, and while I reacted the same way there as I am here, you might find something new.

I'm posting these here, although I made them for the Stormlight: The Musical thread in the Oathbringer spoiler board. They're both from my favorite musical, Dogfight, which isn't that well known compared to Les Mis or Disney. I may or may not set the entire soundtrack to Stormlight themes and characters, because I really love it and there's enough similarities to use. The first song is the marines setting up the Dogfight, which I've re-set to be Bridge 4 learning how to use stormlight. The other song is Highstorm/Last Night.

One more from Dogfight, this time a Bridge Four squire training session set to Some Kinda Time. I present Some Kinda Light

Let's get down to business to survive the runs When they send new members, their minds are dun. You're the saddest bunch I've ever met, but you can bet before we're through Mister I'll make a crew out of you!

The book is Tigana.....and it's amazing. Really beautifully written. As already mentioned, it's Guy Gabriel Kay's Tigana. Quick description is spoilers, but I don't give anything away that you won't read in the first quarter of the book. Overall I liked the book, but hated this character. I really like this distinction, too, and along with the leading/protecting insight, this is another that informs not just my understanding of Moash, but also Kaladin. That fact that Kaladin's actions are what he interprets as the cause of the deaths around him is very significant, and it makes him hesitant to act in the future for fear of leading those he cares about into harm's way. Moash, due to his absence, feels the opposite: the need to act, to do something, anything, to make up for his inaction when those he cared about were harmed. Rather than be beset by doubt and guilt, he's driven by certainty and conviction. Me too, which is why I was displeased that Amaram turned out quite a bit blacker than I expected. I was looking forward to him as a morally grey character that's a step or two better than Sadeas, but instead he was the big-bad-boss (or miniboss) for this book. To me he's very sympathetic. I never really liked Elhokar, and while it would have been nice if he was a just and true king, or if he had actually confronted his self-delusions as part of becoming a Lightweaver, but I'm just fine with him dying in his home city because of his prior failures. Moash, however, has always been the #2 to Kaladin, with some hints at rivalry, and by the end of WoR we see the split. Now he's being groomed as an actual rival in power to Kaladin, and I can't wait until we see another direct conflict between them. Kaladin's question about another honorspren bonded to a parshendi protecting his own makes me think that's exactly what will happen, with Moash doing the protecting, with or without honorspren.

Oh baby you don't know what you do to me, this is fantastic. I only wish you had him do the "This I swear by the stars" line at the end. Now I'm going to have to try a re-setting of One Day More, with the whole cast. Or, my favorite musical, Dogfight, with First Date/Last Night as a date between Adolin and Shallan. EDIT: I did it. I'm not too proud, except for the part that I totally am. Not a date between Shallan and Adolin, but instead set in the chasms when Shallan and Kaladin are trapped (because I'm a shameless Shalladin shipper and I'll go down with the ship, damnit). This takes place after the highstorm, while they're walking back. Without further ado, I present Highstorm/Last Night: Shallan: Stormlight, dun glow A light that saves your life when power flows Well, let it pour Just cover up whatever came before Kaladin: Highstorm, whips through And makes you do some crem you'd never do Shardblade near: how the hell did it get here? BOTH: And we go Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum Don't know how s/he survived the fall (x2) Shallan: I'll lead the way Though how I do, to him, I'll never say. What he saw? Kaladin: *cough* Shallan: What? Kaladin: Huh? Shallan: Don't expect too much, just draw Kaladin: Bright eyes, frank stare Yeah her eyes are light Why do you care? What took hold? Look at her, she looks so... cold BOTH: And we go Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum Don't know how s/he survived the fall (x2) Shallan: He protects me holding Pattern's blade He'd be dying Kaladin: She'd be dead BOTH: If you had stayed And you might miss Any good that could come After this Shallan: Highstorm Kaladin: Last night BOTH: Almost was revealed, but not quite Kaladin: So bring her out Shallan: Give him a shot BOTH: Cause people can surprise you... or not And we go Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum Bum bum

This is one of the most profound thoughts I've encountered on these boards. It's a perfect encapsulation of their relationship through two books, and it highlights the breakdown between their two characters. I feel like Hoid here, in that it seems to be more a matter of timing rather than intent. It seems that Moash is getting rust not becuase of what he's doing, but because of when he's doing it. It's not his fault that the apocalypse gave him the opportunity he was dying to have. And the fact that he's doing it despite the apocalypse seems to make him even less sympathetic. Don't you just HATE characters like this? The ones that are so compelling you just can't stand them? It's worse when they're protagonists (Dianora di Certando, if you know her). Good to see you in another thread, as your contributions are universally above-average.

I'd love to see this, because while I'm actually anticipating additional 'hidden' shards of Adonalsium floating around, I'm less thrilled about describing them as spren any more than I'd describe them as mistwraiths or seons.

Now I'm imagining characters in Stormlight projected onto Les Miserables... Kaladin would of course be Jean Valjean, as a former convict, singing Who Am I? as he decides whether he can reveal himself as Radiant...

The Way of Kings was what convinced me that Brandon Sanderson was worth reading, so I'm going to vote for that. It also has the best scene in any of his books yet (Are windspren attracted to the wind, or do they make it? I remember what spren I am.) The Tower will be my favorite scene for a long, long time. It was amazingly powerful and meaningful to me. Plus, it's usually the first book that's the best of a series. After all, if the first one sucked they don't tend to write a second one. It's the one that's most fully formed and has the best idea of what happens, when, and why. As series continue these point tend to merge between books.

What's a spren? A living idea. Some of these living ideas can have ideas of their own, and these spren are the ones that bond humans. I don't see how or why we'd have Adonalsiumspren, because spren are a manifestation of the shards in the system, not some universal truth to the Cosmere. Furthermore, there aren't enough people with the idea of Adonalsium to make a living idea. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't various shards of Adonalsium beyond the 16 main shards (I'm thinking very tiny, like splinters or droplets), but Adonalsiumspren doesn't make sense to me.

Does he not? I don't agree with Moash on much, but being wrong is not the same thing as taking no responsibility... If we want to talk about storming piles of rust (mixing shardic metaphors here) who take no responsibility for their actions, we need to talk about Szeth, not Moash. If we want to talk about vicious unstoppable killers, we need to talk about Dalinar, not Moash. If we want to talk about traitors and betrayers, we need to talk about Taravangian, not Moash. Moash is just a man. A broken man doing what he can, caught up in worlds beyond his ken. Odium was the one to finally help him achieve what he wanted, and he still felt empty afterwards. Now that he's killed Jezrien and taken up his sword, I think we'll have a better idea of what kind of person Moash is, and what his motivations will be now that his quest for vengeance has been fulfilled. He's being manipulated, but I don't understand the hate for him. He's a great character and a great man (yes, petty revenge and defection included), which is why he protects the singers who are being treated badly. I want to reemphasize that main difference between Moash and Kaladin is the level of nihilism. Kaladin tries to not care, but can't help but caring. Moash, finally, has been worn down, broken, and doesn't care. Their similarities makes Moash much more sympathetic to me, and much more interesting as an antagonist in the coming books.

And yet, I'm guessing that exactly what they didn't want to do when making Nightblood. I think they wanted a sword that could think for itself and thus judge for itself what is right and wrong, what is good and evil. 'Cut enemies' means anyone or anything can be an enemy, and then it's really no different than Kalad's Phantoms: a terrifying weapon in control of the one who wields it. I think Shashara and Vasher wanted to make a sword with a soul and with a conscience. That being said, it turned out so badly that Vasher killed his partner and held on to Nightblood for years due to its dangerous nature. They failed, but I'm guessing they were shooting for something more than a really cool sword.

The book itself isn't canon, but the substance Aether certainly exists.

Exactly this. Anything that doesn't start with 'Destroy' is a good start. Like, 'Cut when drawn' is better than 'Destroy Evil.' Although given how Vasher says that more complicated ideas are harder to fix in your mind, you might not have much choice. Speculation on the sword's command is great, though. I really hope we get to see Nightblood (the Warbreaker sequel) before the next Stormlight book, although realistically it's more likely to precede Szeth's book (book 5), as he is its current bearer.

There's a whole lot more of their lives than the last two books worth. They are the same, or close to same, even despite their different choices. That's the point: that similar people can make different choices and take different paths while still being similar people. Also remember the singers he helped: that was him acting like Kaladin, even after he's gone against every ideal of the Radiants. He's not a radiant, doesn't want to be, and doesn't have to be one. Not everyone will, and there's no reason to believe that in 100 lives Kaladin is a radiant in even one or two of them. I'm going to disagree here, too. Moash intention absolutely matters, and I'd say it matters much more than how Kaladin took it. In the Cosmere, Intent is the basis of all magic, and allows sentient creates to achieve somewhat godlike powers, but Kaladin being angry somehow overrides what Moash Intended? I'm not buying it. I love this. The salute was a signal between friends and equals, not follower to leader. This is what i mean when I'm saying they're the same. And remember, it's only because of Kaladin that Moash ever had this chance. Kaladin could have avoided it a dozen times, and would have if he were a better man. If he were a man a little less like Moash. But then he wouldn't be Kaladin.

No, I'm talking about going back for Dalinar. Bridge 4 was lagging behind with the intention of deserting when they, and only they, went back for Dalinar and his army. And remember who was holding the bridge to get Dalinar and Adolin back across: Moash. Honestly after that scene I don't really care about who is and isn't Bridge 4. The only reason I care about who might be Bridge 4 is because that's the bridge that went back for Dalinar. That's the group of people that made stew every night and ran into incoming arrows every day. That's why I like Moash, and Teft, and Drehy, and Rock, and Kaladin. They stood where others fell (Stonewards, anyone?). Everybody wants to hate on Moash and make him into this evil supervillain, which he isn't. He's basically the same as Kaladin, and that's what the salute meant. It was a signal between kindred spirits once close, now apart, and a sign that his battle wasn't with Kaladin at all, but with Elhokar. We should look at that salute and think, "there but for the grace of Honor goes Kaladin," and feel sympathy, not hatred.

You're not really about to tell me that a man who charged the Parshendi at the Tower isn't a real member of Bridge 4. I disagree completely, it was him acknowledging the commonality between Kaladin and Moash. Of course they're different, but they're also the same. Sure, in part, but not in its entirety. Bridge 4 was formed by surviving and striving. It was by choosing life over death. Kaladin in particular wanted to protect others, but the rest of them didn't have to make that choice, they just had to care about being human, to care about coming back alive. The way I see it, Moash took Kaladin up on his offer, belatedly. He's choosing freedom for himself after the servitude of Bridge 4. He's no radiant, just a man, and it shows in his failings. But Moash earned the right to give that salute when he went back for Dalinar and the rest of his army.

This was Moash getting revenge on the lighteyes that have wronged him, just like Kaladin has always wanted to do to Amaram. It's him showing respect to Kaladin, but not deference, as he is clearly working on his own. And now that they're free, I don't see why Moash shouldn't continue to use the Bridge 4 salute: he was on those runs, he went down into the chasms, and he is and was Bridge 4.

And this is why you're the Picard aboard this Good Ship Shalladin. Brilliant post, and great analysis of the rock/Tien/weight of the dead connection, not just at the end but also with Tarah. We can wrap this up with his scars to see if he can start living for the living, and stop thinking of himself as a slave. I'll just jump in to remind everyone that neither Shallan nor Kaladin is the main character of this book: Dalinar is. He's the main character, and it's his plotlines that are prioritized and his revelations which are the crux of the book. Both Kaladin and Shallan have had their books, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them both slowly drop in screen-time, despite how heavily invested we as readers are in their characters. That doesn't make it any less disappointing, as 50 pages and counting can attest.

Do you think Gavilar would have swallowed the gem? Would have turned himself into a crazy 10-surge crystal beast? He was definitely the 'bad guy,' but I wanted to see more of his justifications and reasoning. I wanted to know what he expected to accomplish, because even though we know he wanted to bring back the Fused, we don't really know why or what he expected to do once they returned. Maybe that smoke-filled stone that he gave to Szeth is the source of Voidlight and he was going to bend the Parsh to his will and conquer Roshar. Somehow, that doesn't seem likely. Amaram never seemed to care about uniting the highprinces, or the nations, or really anyone. He never seemed to read or care about The Way of Kings, so I'd keep him slightly separate from Gavilar in that regard. I don't care so much whether he redeems himself or not, or sacrifices himself at the end. Rather, I want him to think that he's doing the right thing within his own value structure and based on his own experiences. It's like what @Ookla the Obtuse called a beautiful tragedy: Moash was always going to kill Elhokar, and he was always going to feel justified doing it, and we as readers know just enough to consider he might be right. I want my bad guys to think they're good guys, and to work for whatever good they think they know, to work towards their own goals based on their on priorities. The conflict comes when those values and priorities start to clash with those of our protagonists. I want the same thing of Moash (and Odium himself) as I wanted from Amaram: plausibility with a hint of sympathy, despite the terrible things they've done. I would be shocked if Rayse bites the dust by the end of book 5, but I've been pushing my Desolations theory of the gap between books 5 and 6. A new bearer of the shard could absolutely be the reason the 'Final Desolation' really isn't final. Rayse dies, Oathpact serves its purpose, but there's a new bearer, Moash, and thus a new Oathpact is required in a hurry, with new Heralds. It's a bold theory, and not one I expect to see come to pass, but it's clear that Moash is being groomed as some kind of top tier lieutenant for Odium, so it puts him in the realm of powerful artifacts and may take him to the right place at the right time.

Yup, that's what happens when you write a wall of text and I bang out a few sentences. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who had that thought, and I completely agree with you that they would first need to discover radio waves before a Lightweaver could produce them. Communcation is probably the most important part of this war, as we have similarly-powered forces on either side. The force that has superior knowledge, communication, and coordination will get the most from the smallest force, and that kind of efficiency is going to be needed to defeat the power of a god. Before anyone builds a fabrial to do it, I expect some kind of morse-code or telegraph style communcation from Lightweavers.