Hoiditthroughthegrapevine

I have to say that the first time through OB, the battle between Amaram and Kaladin was a big let down. I constantly thought what an anticlimatic battle this is, why doesn't Kaladin get his moment of revenge, his moment to right the wrongs of the past. That said, the first time through, Oathbringer displaced my favorite book of all times, Plutarch's the Noble Lives of Grecians and Romans (which is in the public domain, and if you haven't read it you can get an ebook of it right here). More on how OB is the best book ever later. Initially I thought the fight between Kaladin and Amaram was incredibly anti-climatic, but that's really just because the focus was shifting so much. The action was just too frenetic, and the first time through I was focused on every aspect of Part 5. The second time through, it was an amazing confrontation, and it was advancing (in a minor thesis kind of way) Odium's agenda. The whole there is no responsibility line, while Dalinar (the major thesis) is struggling with just that same dilemma. On the second read, it's far more brilliant than the first. The struggle between Kaladin and Amaram would have been an incredibly satisfying end to a whole book series, but here it's just the dispatching of a minor villain. Awesome! I believe like Brandon Sanderson that a good life is a moral life, I believe that everyone that has not killed their conscience deserves the chance to Stand Up and Do Better. I actually went to my first book signing ever, so that I could get copies of the SLA autographed for my two daughters with the words "Journey before destination". If the signing had been timed so that it was after I had read all of OB, it would have been "Stand Up, and Do better". These are just the emotional/philosophical reactions to OB. From a literary perspective, OB is leaps and bounds beyond TWoK or WoR. Brandon is amazing, every day he wakes lying prostrate on his bed he says "Stand Up and do better" and he does. His writing has gotten so much better over even the course of the SLA. And as @Stormrunner1730 said, Brandon's writing is amazing precisely because he tries to diminish the role of the authorial voice: He writes cinematically, if you think about, all of your favorite scenes from Brandon's books can probably play through your head right now. It's like he sees his role to be the projectionist, the one that makes sure he doesn't get in the way of the amazing story you can create in your head with just the slightest of guidance on his part. All of this takes work, he is the master of understated visual metaphor (by this I mean visual metaphor that doesn't put forward how amazing and great the creator of the metaphor is, but rather that the visual metaphor is so powerful and compelling that you forget for a time that you are reading). I do think though that Brandon has one concession to the genius of his creation, which is personified in his work as Hoid. Given the dialog when Hoid is around, can we truly fault him for this concession of genius, that we would gladly concede on multiple other fronts? I think not, but getting back to the topic (holy crap this is getting long) Oathbringer is the most taut narrative that BWS has come up with to date. The extended visual metaphors that he came up and pulled off (Shallan looking for Re'shephir and seeing Urithiru like the circulatory system of a dead body, seeing 4 out of the 9 UNMADE and having them all be AWESOME!) I think part of the problem is the scale of OB, he's starting to draw the skein too wide, he's creating the foundation of a problem that 1 or 2 isolated individuals can't possibly hope to tackle. But I think this is the point, it's a struggle across all of Roshar, across 3 realms, involving 2 gods and the splintered remains of another. At a certain point the camera has to pull back, it can't all be about Adolin crapping in his shardplate. Bigger fish need a bigger frying pan, this involves a certain amount of delineation for what the extents of that frying pan are. I just want to say, I LOVED THIS BOOK! There is no other book that has kept me so rapt, had me weeping at some times, had me shaking my fist at others than this one. I too am dissatisfied with how a lot of plot points weren't addressed/tied up, but after watching the first Star Wars Trilogy, I was mad about certain things at the end of Empire Strikes Back, but giving Brandon the credit that he is do, I think he is intending for us to be mad about those things. Oathbringer is my favorite book of all times, I used to like Plutarch's Lives better, but this has officially been displaced. I can give no higher praise than this, but if I could I would. I LOVE OATHBRINGER!!!

@Extesian I was hoping more for confusion, then bleeding out of the eyes, THEN laughter, but such is the nature of the world. We give thought wings and then said thought slinks off to the corner and wallows in its own feces until it dies. Such is creation and life, it would be sad really if I wasn't currently laughing so hard that blood was coming out of my eyes.

Point well taken, but I think this has more to do with the mechanics of Voidbinding. You can't have an opposing force ALSO bonding the god spren of Roshar, and Odium's number is 9, which means that one order has to be not invited to the party (kind of sad, but that's life). I think the bigger question, which Dragonsteel Inc. is trying hard right now to figure out the philosophical/real world implications of, is why do the Voidbinders not have a Bondsmith analog? I'm pretty sure that time and 7 more Storm Light Archive books will tell, but until then, these are incredibly good questions to ask.

Honestly I blame this one on brandon, since he hardly ever kills off main characters permanently and half the time it is a fake out when he does. WoR with Szeth and Jasnah did not help either I think this is more the Journey before the Destination kind of thing, Brandon's like Johnny Cash singing at Fulsom Prison, everyone deserves a chance to stand up and Do better, including the ones that seemingly died in the throes of their false belief. I LOVE that Szeth was given a second chance, and I LOVE that Jasnah is still alive, it's like if you had the power to go back in time and keep Martin Luther King alive or Cato the elder alive, wouldn't you have done it? Brandon writes ultimately with a moral imperative, and though it may not sink in on the first, second or third reading, eventually the linkage between godlike power and the morals lived up to will sink in, and the world will be a better place because people will start to think that, like Dalinar, I can "Stand Up and do better".

I think any topic where they use diagrams, I mean come on, what can diagrams teach us. I actually made a Venn diagram to illustrate this point: *Bugnuts© is the intellectual property of @RShara, anyone who wishes to use said phrase has to formally commit in writing that: But in all seriousness, I stay away from the shipping threads too. I love the theories on the shard, but the shipping threads are an unforgiving vacuum of time, and I have far too much of my time vacuumed up by the shard as it is. I do have to admit, that before I joined the shard I had a reflexive eye twitchy reaction to the word meme, it made me slightly nauseous. But after Oathbringer, I am totally all in, and the OB meme thread is Hilarious!!

Sorry you can't do that, that tear is cosmic beauty leaking out of your spirit web. Investiture resists investiture, that's a foundational rule of the cosmere.

Question is, do you dab your eyes with kleenex or tp?

@Tobbzn let me reply to your hypothesis in Ketek form: Done digesting, Lift becomes stronger, pooping Aluminum. Pooping strengthens being. Lift's digestion's done. Seriously one of the funniest theories I've read in a long time (and disturbingly well thought out). Pip pip and cheerio, take an upvote too. You might really like one of my daughter's favorite books: https://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Poop-Pee-Functions/dp/0147510376?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0147510376

@The Allomantic Metalhead, I really like Tattoo magic, but I think that could be one branch out of 4 (possibly the Physical). Along those lines, it would be awesome in a magic system to have Tattoos that can become a physical manifestation of something. Possible examples, would be a sword tattoo down a magic users arm that can be drawn out like a real sword, a crystal ball tattoo say on a person's chest that allows visions of the near future, etc. This would be a little like Ray Bradbury's Illustrated Man, with the exception that the tatoos can become physical objects or have some innate magical powers. Another general idea, which I think would be rad, would be to have this world of the future be one of the two following (the second option probably the most interesting): A partially real, partially simulated world, where the line between reality and simulacra is blurred due to the fact that everyone has a cognitive implant that makes the simulation respond exactly like the real thing. This would give the digital magic a real world manifestation, and it is a pretty rad setup. Overlaying the world is a digital simulation, like virtual reality. Everyone born into the world is spiked with a mind jack that allows them to see this simulated overlay projected over the real world. In the simulated world, there are no homeless or broken windows, everyone can become what they want by designing their own avatar, and yes, even ugly people can get dates. But each person in the world can choose at anytime to view the simulated or the real world, magical powers allow the slight phasing between these worlds (or this could be restricted to one of your magic classes). In the real world you could be drinking your gray protein milkshake, but in the simulated world you would be eating bacon wrapped filet mignon. This too offers lots of possibilites for the causation and effects of the Digital form of magic. These are preliminary remarks and like @Eagle of the Forest Path said, if you add more details/specifics the recommendation/questions to ask would be better (Eagle, I love your quote by the way, and "Donkey with a plunger stuck to it's head" are the funniest 8 word strung together that I've seen in a long time).

@Unlicensed Hemalurgist sounds like a very cool magic system and story setup. Here's a suggestion for Group 4. Group 4: Viscera Powers Viscera-Passive: Increased mental acuity and overall enhanced perception. Explanation is that blood to the viscera is "charged", this could potentially be a passive state that has to be actively engaged. Viscera-Active: Ability to manipulate the "charge" of the blood going to the viscera of others. This could include the dimming of wits, the clouding of vision, the slowing of a heart. This could be a proximity based power that seriously is a near proximate effect so that it's not too OP. Another possible way to approach coming up with the powers is to think of the full causal chain of the mystery as a series of events and discoveries, and work backwards from the final discovery that uncovers the truth of the mystery back along the causal chain of events. And then, with each of the events, think what type of magic would be useful to reveal the secret of the event without it being able to reveal it in and of itself. For magical detection to be interesting their still has to be some other agency that helps in the revelation of the secret.

@MasterJack, very cool outline! I would consider expanding the inmate crew to include some real jerks too and some seemingly helpless people that either find a way to pull it together or die in their weakness (these two groups could function as the Star Trek redshirts, sent into dangerous spots, and possibly foils to highlight the positive attributes of your two protagonists). I personally like how Brandon sets up his books, with a prologue that is deeply relevant to the rest of the book, that establishes a baseline expectation for what you are going to get from the book (especially the Vasher prison escape Prologue from Warbreaker). With that in mind, and totally take this as just the suggestion that is, I think it would be awesome to have the book start with a prologue where the inmate crew are approaching the black hole. You can have some of the character conflict play out, play up the fatalism of certain crew members, show their personalities against the backdrop of what could be imminent death. The chapter could be from the POV of one of your two primary protagonists, and the moment I think the prologue should end is when they get pulled into the black hole (and possibly the transitional state before they exit through the worm-hole on the other side). Another possible way to go would be to have one of your 2 protagonists be the captain of the crew, and the prologue is his last Mission log before they get pulled into the Black hole. Then Part 1 of the book could be backstory, starting maybe with how both of the protoganists and some of the other prison crew got caught and imprisoned, and then have a chapter where the governmental authorites are assessing the threat that this black hole poses to the world, and coming up with the plan to send the Prisoners. Then maybe have a Multi-pov chapter which has miniature scenes of all of the selected prisoners being told that about the mission. Then possibly a journey from earth to the black hole, as another chance to deal with character conflict/interaction. (And if you went with the mission log style Prologue you could have this restart the mission logs, which could continue through the book, alternating with the other protagonist POV). Then Part 2 could start with whatever aftermath of Worm-hole transit you have mapped out. I think this is a pretty compelling framework, and the fact that they are in reality prisoners on the ship with a different kind of death sentence could be explored in the prologue and parts 2 through n, and would give all of the Prisoner crew a common shared destiny. Obviously you can have some inveterate jerk wads that foul things up because they are only motivated by their own self-interest, but it's a situation that lends itself to cooperative group effort. Individual survival is tied to group survival.

Awesome! I love how they are both singing the chorus with their own goal in mind, once again brilliantly done @Personification!

Hahahaha! Actually, what I suspect will happen is that these light-gold instant noodles (suspiciously colored, no?) will just have a trace amount of Odi-Yum-I-Yum in them, giving everyone on Roshar a Passion for Instant Noodles. Then Odium's plan will come to true fruition, check it out: It's a spring-loaded, Odiumium Herald Shanker, with herald specific gems hidden in the recessed area on the bottom of Instant Noodle cups. So here's how I see this working, after everyone on Roshar, Heralds included, has developed a Passion for Instant Noodles, agents of Odium will give all of the heralds specially prepared Cup O' Odi-Yum-I-Yums that when opened, a reticulated Odiumium knife that is attached to the Herald keyed gem, will spring up and shank the herald, giving them the true death and even worse they will die with their desire for instant noodles unfulfilled. A truly Odious plan.

Hi @Teaghen, welcome to the Shard! I really like the general outline of your dissertation and would like to help you but I'm having difficultly understanding your thesis. What do you mean by the point at the end of your overview (highlighted above)?

I've only read the version in the Silmarillion, didn't know there was a different version, but now that I do I'll definitely be checking it out. Thanks @Kingsdaughter613!

Challenge accepted. Here are some WoBs that I put together for a different post that explains how Crem is a vital part of the Rosharan ecosystem and is most likely under the purview of Cultivation's Investiture (spoilered below for length): This heavily implies that the Highstorm is doing at least 2 important things: Distributing Investiture in the form of Stormlight Distributing life-sustaining minerals and nutrients in the form of Crem (which is slightly invested) to maintain all life on the rocky and barren surfaces of Roshar. There is a thread started by @DracostarA where some are speculating that the Sibling is "The Lifebrother", who was only mentioned once when Szeth finds out that Taravangian is holding his oath stone: Here is the quote from the scene from WoR: If these Stormstriders are really giant spren that are part of the magical ecology of Roshar, this is a possible speculative explanation for their two roles. One to distribute water (which is possibly slightly invested). We know that the water in the Purelake is heavily invested (magic fish) and one pool for sure in the Horn Eater peaks is very definitely invested, so water in the water cycle might be one form of investiture dispersal. The other role would be the distribution of mineral rich crem, which we know from the above WoBs is invested. So possibly you have Lifebrother spreading crem fertilizer and Rainsister making sure all the semi-sentient flora gets the magic water that they need. If this ecological view is correct and the Stormstriders are in fact giant level spren, I think that opens up 4 distinct possibilites for what they are; They are demi-god, Cusicesh level spren They are the two components of the "hurt" sibling They are demi-god Cusicesh level spren and they are components of the hurt sibling, along with Cusciesh (who seems like somewhat mindless, almost like a spren with a broken oath) They are the other 2 god level spren I think that option 1 is unlikely because if they are distributors of Investiture that would seem to imply that they are heavily invested themselves, like the SF. I think that option 2 is somewhat likely, but it doesn't really get us anywhere in terms of speculating about what they are actually doing I like option 3 the most, and will address it down below in the speculation part. I instinctively disagree with the 4th option because it would seem strange to me that 2 out of the 3 god spren were mostly derived from Cultivation's Investiture. SPECULATION: I like the Sibling being a 2 or 3 part spren construct, including Cusicesh the Protector. This addresses why such an impressive Spren as Cusicesh is a step below god-level spren, because she would effectively be a third or a half of a God-Level spren. I've also never really liked the idea that the Nightwatcher was a Bondsmith spren. I can see the utility in bonding the Stormfather, he see's a lot and is the key to Honor's perpendicularity and the distribution of Stormlight. The Nightwatcher, especially after Dalinar's trip to the valley, seems like a hold over spren (from the Shadow days' superstitions that created the Old Magic) that Cultivation adopted and is trying to domesticate. The scene in the Valley reads like the NW is Cultivation's pet snake, like Voldemort's horcruxed Nagini. I personally hope that one of the Bondsmith bonds BAM, that sounds like an interesting conflict, and a challenge worthy of Taravangian. The most intelligent of the enemy's Unmade, bound to the Compassionate/Intelligent super Utilitarian. Talk about baked in conflict, that would be rad. EDIT: This has been tumbling around in my head for a bit, like a boulder getting pushed by the stormwall. Spoilered below is the Door's song Striders In The Storm:

@Leyrann that is somewhat problematic, but not all manifestations of surges cause items affected to glow with stormlight. The bright swathes of stormlight that Kaladin paints on the ground with his foot when he creates a strip of adhesion in the Chasms during spear training definitely visually manifests. Things lashed visually leak stormlight until the lashing runs out. Dalinar's use of the tension surge to knit back together the Temple of Battar in Thaylen city showed visible stormlight (the cracks between the blocks were glowing with stormlight before they fused back together). Shallan's illusions don't glow though, so this might be proof of your electromagnetic repulsion theory, in that stormlight is used to create propagating waves of energy and these waves are invisible. Or it could be that the actual physical surfaces of the objects subject to the abrasion slicking surge transform to a perfectly smooth surface (the ground it would be a temporary transformation while the surge charged object is gliding over the surface). I don't really like either of those explanations though, the electromagnetic repulsion theory does the best job of explaining the phenomenon but it's just not abrasion. The magical temporary transformation explanation seems too convoluted and energy intensive, while the surge in practice seems to be an efficient surge (items slicked remain more or less slicked, until the surge is dismissed). I do think the lack of visible stormlight for slicked abrasion is the death knell of the magical cushion of investiture though, so that's progress.

@Toaster Retribution you totally captured what makes Sadeas such a cremhole villain in your Gotta rule 'em all parody, showing all of his qualities that makes him a villian you love to hate. Thanks for the kind words too! Did you see that Vyre death metal album that I did (I think the type looks pretty rad).

Pip pip, that my friend is RAD!

Either way, trying to interpret the death rattles as visions of the future or visions of the past, we are seeing through the glass darkly. The death rattles are by design vaguely specific, coded in a strange apocalyptic symbolism that is similar in tone to the book of Revelation. The events in the days before recorded history are referred to as the shadow days and the future is a shattering window decomposing into smaller and harder to perceive possibilities the farther forward you look. Behind and ahead the world is shrouded in mysteries and filled with secrets. I am OK with the idea that the rattles could be explaining some of the secrets from the past, but Taravangian's interpretation from the second desk drawer heavily implies that they are forward looking visions. I personally love prophecies in science fiction and fantasy, so I prefer to view them as prophetic in nature because it's fun to try and put the pieces together and see if you can figure out a coming event or see in retrospect how they applied to an event that they pre-dated.

Don't know, that's a good point. I'll have to re-read part 5 again.

How I imagine the division surge working is a lot like the super charged knife handed martial artist Rei from Fist of the North Star (animated gif spoilered below, because, well, it's from Fist of the North Star. Don't look at the spoilered content if you have a problem with cartoon violence): I think the ability to divide, combined with the ability to increase abrasion is what allows the Dustrbringers to set things on fire. Dustbringers are totally the Beavis and Butthead order of Knights Radiant. Their spren like to break things and they set stuff on fire. Total teenagers.

Exactly @Steeldancer! But Hoid might be happy because this would probably trigger the development of products like this on Roshar:

@Toaster Retribution, brilliantly done! My favorite is part is how you changed the lyrics for this part: Looking at the original lyrics (spoilered below) my favorite bits are the change from "Oh, you're my best friend" to "Oh, I'm dressed so well" and the change from "you teach me, and I'll teach you" to "you face me and I kill you", and my absolute favorite change from "it's you and me" to "It's me and me", all of those get at the Heart of Doucheness that was Torol Sadeas. I just listened to the Moash shardcast, and came up with pretty sweet death metal album cover for the artist formerly known as Moash, you can see it here. http://www.17thshard.com/news/shardcast/shardcast-moash-r374/?do=findComment&comment=4033 One of the standout tracks on this album is O-di-um (sung to the tune of Heroin, by the Velvet Underground) Here's the version from the album the Velvet Underground & Nico that the above lyrics are synced to:

No problem, currently out of upvotes but will get you one when they trickle back in. Brandon is an amazing writer because nuance and subtle distinctions have magical consequences. If Kaladin had snuck into Amaram's camp and killed him in the night, like he planned to do in WoR when he was consumed with Hatred, he would have lost his Radiance. The moral dimension in the cosmere is deeply significant.