Hoiditthroughthegrapevine

I think if you read the scene again Kaladin is really focused on protecting Dalinar, he's not so consumed with his own personal vengeance that he fails to notice the Fused harrying Dalinar. Multiple times during the fight with Amaram he pulls away from the fight to fend off some Fused that are threatening Dalinar. I actually think that the whole exchange Kaladin has with Amaram during their fight is Kaladin literally turning away from the simple hatred he had for Meirdas because of a key realization. Amaram in his pride tries to take credit for forging Kaladin into what he has become, but Kaladin realizes that the strength that he has was his all along. This is not an epiphany of a man consumed by hatred, he realizes that it's his own inner strength is what makes him "The Spear that Wouldn't Break" not what was externally done to him.

I wasn't a big fan of the change at the end of WoR, but Brandon is a writer who is very nuanced in his application of character motivation and intent. The fact that he felt strongly enough about this small distinction to change a major scene in the book after it was already in print shows that this is fundamental to Kaladin's identity. The part that he was specifically addressing with the revision was that at the point that Szeth realizes that he's not truthless and never had been, he gives up on the assassination of Dalinar and actively seeks death. Kaladin realizes this and at an instinctive level knows that killing Szeth would at this point simply be murder, and not killing in order to protect. Amaram on the other hand was actively trying to kill Dalinar during their whole fight. So I think the WoR rewrite was an attempt at moral disambiguation.

I think this is relevant to the discussion, I originally posted this on the Oathbringer Memes page, but I think that they might have a new expletive on Roshar: I really liked the analysis from @Comatose about Moash being torn between throwing the bridge four badge into the fire, and then thinking about throwing himself into the fire, and how this narratively came full circle with him shedding the identity of Moash and becoming Vyre. I like it so much in fact, that I made Vyre's first death metal cover, here it is: Here's the tracklist: 1) Wasn't I a Dick? 2) Yeah, I'm Probably Still a Dick 3) Vyre, Yeah It Rhymes With Fire You Dick 4) O-di-um Be the Death of Me (a slight reworking of the Velvet Underground song Heroin) 6) It's a Long Way Back From Braize 7) Cremholes in the Stream (a duet with Ialai Sadeas) 8) Countdown to Desolation 9) Crazy Herald Train If you get the remastered version you get some pretty interesting outtakes where he's spaced out on voidlight and mumbling incoherently about passion this and passion that. Track 17 where he's eating chouta while totally spaced out on voidlight is definitely worth listening to, trust me.

I had to vote for other because it's really a tie between 5 separate elements of Roshar. Stormlight-This is the coolest magical visualization ever! Magical power trapped in gems, used as a source of illumination and as complex batteries/circuit housings for magical machines, rad! Not to mention how amazing it is in use for Surgebinding. Light that is inhaled, that makes Knights Radiant...We'll radiant. That it steams off of KRs, that it is exhaled in luminescent puffs, again rad. Spren-Collective thought given poetic form, this is SO amazing. Shame spren manifesting like red petals that fall around a person who is ashamed, orange pain spren wriggling out of the ground like clasping sinewy hands, anticipation spren flapping like red banners in the wind. This is living metaphor! I also love that only a small aspect of the spren's true being manifests in the physical realm and that collective ideas exist in a separate realm where they have actually built cites. Freaking rad! Shardblades/Shardplate-The coolest magical weapons and armor ever created. Shardblades are like lightsabers with serious philosophical implications, they can cut through anything but what are they actually doing? I love how shardplate is like a magical mech suit, it's like a Magi-tech suit from final fantasy but without the necessity to bulk up the person using it. I also love how a full shard bearer is essentially an M1 Abrhams tank dropped into feudal Europe. Talk about a serious game changer in the tactics of war Surgebinding- We're less than a third of the way through SLA, and really there's only one form of Surgebinding that we truly understand, Windrunning. That said, Windrunning is quite possibly the coolest combination of powers for an epic hero to possess that has ever been. Kaladin's fight with the Assassin in White at the end of WoR is one of the high-water marks in all of epic fiction. This said, we do know a lot about how the surges of illumination, transformation, and progression work, but the specifics for these surges haven't been addressed in anywhere near their full operational complexity. We have gotten small crumbs as to how cohesion and division work, but I think Brandon is waiting to explore the full range of possible application until these surges are narratively more important. But given what we've seen so far, I feel confident in saying that the future of Surgebinding is going to be awesome. The Dysian Aimians - Possibly the most amazing alien lifeform created in all of epic fantasy or Sci-Fi. A sapient lifeform that exists primarily as an idea of existence, that utilizes and breeds seperate forms of life to add components to its corporeal body based on its evolving needs is just SO freaking amazing. I also love this alien lifeform because of the philosophical questions at the heart of its existence. What is Identity? What is consciousness? What does it mean to be a composite entity governed by the principle of "I"? This is one aspect of the future SLA books that I most looking forward to, seeing how Brandon addresses, in a taut narrative, some of the deepest questions of philosophy. Again, I have to say rad!

I know, it's so sweet, it's on their shared tombstone! EDITED: I've never read the Lays of Beleriand, I'll definitely be checking those out, thanks!

You're totally right. Your idea about using the surge to increase the friction of the system is probably how it works. EDITED But if the Division surge causes a fault line, then the abrasion surge could be used to increase the friction between the divided fault line, causing combustion. Just had some additional ideas about how the abrasion surge could be used: Similarly to the adhesion surge, if it could be painted across a surface, anyone running into this incredibly abrasive surface would most likely trip. The forward momentum of their body combined with their feet grinding against the more abrasive ground would probably pitch them forward. The Dustbringer could coat their hands with the abrasive surge, and swiping an opponent with a flat palmed strike, could cause the portion of the opponent thusly swiped to catch on fire (it would have to be flammable, it was soft non flammable flesh it would probably have unfortunate consequences for the flesh). Malata could slap someone's face off.

Probably the better visualization would be a 3 axis plot, where the 3 axis represent the degree of presence in the 3 different realms. Because, at least from my understanding, dead spren blades have a diminished cognitive presence because of the broken oaths, so while when they are summoned they exist in the Cognitive, physical and spiritual realm, their actual presence in the cognitive realm is diminished because they lost a good chunk of their mind (they obviously still have the part that allows them to screech like banshees, but the rest, not so sure. The scratched out eyes indicates too that they are unable to perceive their environment, and thus without the ability to gain new experience they are stuck in this lowered cognitive state). Here's another diagram () of what I'm talking about: The further along each axis the plotted entity is, the greater their presence in the given realm. Obviously how I've plotted these is subjective and somewhat arbitrary, but it would be a fun exercise to try and plot (based on textual evidence, and WoB's) where all of the major players would fit within this Realmatic presence box. Last diagram for a bit, I have to get back to work for reals now.

But we also have to account for how (OB spoiler):

I don't think surfaces have to look differently at all, I think the storm light is being used as a magical cushion of lubricant to decrease the effective coeffecient of friction of a given system to 0, here's a diagram of what I mean: The top rough surfaced object would experience a high coeffecient of friction moving across the rough ground. The bottom, magically slicked surface would be riding a finite cushion of magically friction-less investiture, the texture of the object in motion and the ground it was moving across would be irrelevant, because of the lubricating layer of the slick version of the surge of abrasion. I think how abrasion is increased is that a line of force of investiture is projected out by the Radiant, and like a transverse fault line in plate tectonics, the two surfaces on the opposite sides of this line of investiture move in opposite directions, while simultaneously the abrasion surge squeezes both sides towards this transverse fault line, producing heat from abrasion.

I'm a self-employed Illustrator/Designer/Cartoonist. I went to college and studied Illustration, but had a long line of semi-crappy to crappy jobs. Most entry level jobs are lessons in humility, but it's a good lesson. You can always try to do a good job, and if you work ethically and focus on the quality of your work things will work out for you. I got my first real job doing technical illustrations for computer books through a specialized job placement agency, I know that a lot of people like networking to get a job, but if that's not your cup of tea, the other route to a job that you like is doing high quality work and being a decent human being. Like @old aggie said, not having a job can be frightening, and the period of sustained rejection that you have to go through while looking for a job can be discouraging, but just keep looking, do go work and the rest will follow. One thing to consider too, if you don't currently have a college degree, would be to go to community college while you look for work. You can find lots of jobs with flexible schedules that you can adapt around your college commitments, and getting your prerequisites out of the way at a community college will let you save lots of money. Best of luck @Olenska!

EDITED: The shard, where scholarship and truth reign supreme, and has confirmed my initial conclusion that Venn diagrams are pretty worthless visualizations. These have been removed for the good of the cosmere. As Master Control Program would say, End of Line.

Some important PSAs for Roshar: Part of the same Important campaign:

I think something that could be significantly awesome, as far as the science for where this story is set, would be to have the planet this is set on be actually one of 8 moons orbiting a gas giant like Jupiter. Another detail, that would synch well with the 14 divine attributes would be to have 7 additional planets in the solar system your story takes place in. The solar bodies might be the divine positive attributes, the lunar bodies might be the 7 base attributes. One is farther away, more steady in their presentation, the other are seemingly more erratic in nature. Just an idea, the outline sounds great. Good luck with your story!

Totally got a great visual for this song, I think it works on so many levels:

Hahahah,didn't even think of that possible ramification. Makes me feel even worse for the spren. I hope at some point Jasnah Elsecalls her mom into Shadesmar while she's wearing one of her fancy fabrials. The painrial might be able to get her back for enslaving it, if only a small portion of it is trapped in the gem. I do think we have a view of what spren trapped in fabrials do in the Cognitive Realm though. The oathgate spren are big and freaking awesome, but they seemed to be locked in place. Not a great life for a super-charged, sapient chunk of divinity, but at least they look really cool, right?

@Varion, just finished editing my post, I never knew there was a keyboard shortcut for submitting your post, it's CTRL+ENTER.

@Varion finally have time to address some of the excellent points you brought up. I think is a very interesting theory on the mechanics of Future sight, I think the colored light analogy is compelling because it allows the same objective reality to be viewed differently because some of the information is keyed incorrectly to the light and drops away from view, but in actuality is still present. I have a little harder time with the lampshade analogy, that a spirit web acts like a secondary filter on the primary filter of the colored light, this could just be a symptom of the analogy failing, but if the light Odium is using to look at fortune through the spirit web of an individual near death is being shone into their spirit web, then the holes in their spirit web would be more operational than the connections. Maybe you intended this, as a reason to explain how these death rattles seem to not relate to the individual's spirit web, but it just seems like an awkward means of reading the future. Moleach and Odium would be just as surprised by what they get from the spirit web transmission as the Silent Gathers are, which doesn't seem right to me. This would seem to rob the God-like power of the agency of future sight, if the end result of your attempt to see the future is a random and unpredictable vision. That's like shining a light into a deep body of water to look deeply in the water but instead of seeing into the depths you can only look at the reflections that come off of the surface of the water. They will tell you something about the water, but the agency of the act of investigation has been blunted by the method. In Dalinar's first vision (and the final one he sees at the end of TWoK, chapter 75) the pre-recording of Honor, long since dead, tells him about how he sees the future" This is an analogy from a Shard, which while imperfect, still is one of only two Shard level views into the mechanics of future sight that we've seen. Here's a link to a post I did on the Dangers of Seeing the Future thread which goes into a bit more analysis about how this might work extending the analogy of the future as shattering glass (and includes a really god WoB about the shattering glass analogy of future sight): The other is from Mistborn:Secret History and is spoilered below due to length (this includes Kelsier's moments of future sight and Preservation's comments on future sight in Part 3, Chapter 3, emphasis added): This is a substantially different presentation, but Scadrial and all matter and sentient life on the planet was created from Ruin's and Preservation's combined investiture, maybe making the Inter-Connectedness of all created life and matter the Key Spiritual Determinant for future sight on Scadrial. So we have two analogies for how future sight works for two different shards: Honor's metaphor of a shattering window, where the glass fragments (and implicitly) and the ability to see the future diminish the farther out into the future you go. Kelsier's and Preservation's analogy of Ribbons of Light Connecting to everything (people to people, people to the world, and people to gods) in an infinite possible configuration of connection. The analogy is used that the sheer number of this possible connections is like the probability clouds of Atium. Along with Renarin's vision during the Battle of Thaylen city (spoilered below): there's only one other vision of definite Future Sight in SLA, where Kaladin uses Riino's sphere in Shadesmar while a highstorm is passing overhead (Spoilered below): So mortals granted access to future sight (on Roshar at least) have given the following 2 analogies of future sight: A complicated panorama of stain glassed windows that seem to show different specific events in a continuum of time (from past to future). A shimmering, rippling surge of colors with clouds streaming past and lit up and colored by those colors, and clouds that fade into light, or into a vision of something based on the intended question of the viewer. CONCLUSIONS BASED ON TEXTUAL EVIDENCE: From the above collection of primary sources, I think that the following assertions can be made with a fair degree of confidence. Future sight is of the Spiritual Realm (analysis spoilered below) Future sight is primarily about Spiritual Connection (analysis spoilered below) Future sight seems to need a source of Energy to work (analysis spoilered below) Future sight can be directed by Intent (or if a mortal/cognitive shadow, by willpower and the desire to see something, anlysis spoilered below) WHAT THIS MEANS IN REGARDS TO MOLEACH I think that Moleach is using the "Spark of Death", the breaking away of the spiritual connections from their mortal tether as the Investiture needed to peer into the Spiritual realm. Further I think he is gazing into the spiritual Realm with the Intent to see visions of interest to his Master Odium (with the inherent limitations on what can be seen through the lens of Odium's Intent.) I think Taravangian was incredibly smart to study the death rattles because it gives a clear indication into what is of interest to Odium in the possible permutations of the future. @Varion, I think your analysis of the categories that the death rattles fit into are the categories of things that Odium is interested in about how the future will play out. He wants to know how likely his plans are to succeed (The Everstorm/Desolation is a key part of his plan, the Knights Radiant are key obstacles to his plan, the Heralds are key to his escaping the Rosharan system). Some of the other rattles are possibly just information creep, rattling a soul to shake out information is probably a less than precise art, and Moleach is one of the less sapient of the Unmade. ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS: I'm not sure what to make of this. The rat part is clearly a simile, but what of the wheezing, scratching and scraping? And as an aside, do they even have rats on Roshar? The portion of the simile "like a rat trying to break through walls" is qualifying the nature of how Moleach scrapes at time, to imply that it's pestilent and unwanted I believe, not to imply that Moleach is like a rat. So I believe that the "Spark of Death", or energy released when the spirit web is disconnected from it's mortal vessel (most likely through the severing of links between the spiritual essence and the mortal vessel), fuels non-Moelach aided death rattles as well as the Death Rattles Moleach helps to create. I think that the Cognitive Intent for what the nature of the vision into the spiritual realm is in these cases comes from people around the dying death rattler who are connected to that Individual, or it could possibly come from the dying individual themselves (if they died with something weighing heavily on their soul, this could be enough of a willful directive to function as an Intent).

I understand what you are saying, but I have to disagree with the analysis. Taravangian (who I love as a character as well) is ultimately trying to achieve a limited objective through very distateful means. Amaram (who I also loved as a character) was ultimately trying to achieve a transcendent objective through mildly distateful means. Both of the subjective qualifiers above "very distateful" and "mildly distateful" are how both of the characters, I believe, view the immorality of their actions. Both Taravangian and Amaram are case studies of the two different types of leaders of "True Believer" movements, Taravangian is a practical man of action whose one true belief is in the God he was the day he wrote the diagram, while Amaram is a man of words, and his true belief is in the Vorin religion (which the cycle of Desolations plays a prominent part in). Taravangian kills the innocent and sick for vague hints of the future, topples governments, assasinates world leaders, sows the seeds of a far reaching chaos so that he can be in a position to bargain for the lives of Humanity (which didn't work out quite like Smart Mr. T thought it would). His aim is very limited object, he is truly noble is his attempt (based on his mistaken belief system) to take upon himself the oceans of blood that the world needs to bathe in in order to preserve a mere sliver of humanity. But his objective is corporeal, he is essentially an atheist if the only god he worships is himself at his most intelligent, and thus his sacrifice only contributes to the continuation of the species, not their salvation. While Amaram, who sees himself as one of the elect of the Vorin church, makes a series of amoral choices that he thinks are in service to the greater good of Bringing Honor back to Roshar. A lot of the morally reprehensible actions that he takes are to ensure that he is in a position to influence events as they unfold (by killing Kaladin's men he becomes de-facto one of the most powerful men in Alethkar because he becomes a full shard bearer, stealing Taln's blade has a similar rationalization in that he is unsure what Dalinar's motivations are so he trusts himself better to know what to do with a possible Blade of a Herald). The reason he seems like such a cremling is because as readers we can see the flaws in his religion, the strange warping of reality that exists when you view the world through the lens of Vorinism. I mean, we know that Honor is dead. We can't possibly hope to approach how Amaram views this struggle objectively, knowing that he is willing to subject the world to a Desolation to bring back a god that has been dead for thousands of years. But his objective is not limited to the mere corporeal, his true aim as a true believer in Vorinism is the Spiritual Salvation of humanity. The cycles of Desolations, are to the Vorin way of thinking, necessary to train the human spirit so that the fight to reclaim the Tranquiline halls can continue in the afterlife. I totally disagree with his assessment of the situation (primarily because as a reader I am privy to more knowledge than Amaram is) but his motivation as a character comes from an Idealism that he holds to, and the fact that he feels guilty that he has to break some eggs to make an omelette shows that he is fundamentally moral, because you can't have a pang of conscience without a conscience. Dalinar, in full Blackthorn mode, was more an animal than a man. He really was the Thrill incarnate, but he was saved from himself by the love and sacrifice of Evi. Amaram could have been saved, and I feel that's why his end was truly tragic. The part where Dalinar tries to reach out to Amaram is very moving, and even though I can see how for the narrative it had to work out the way it did, it still makes me sad that he had to give in to Odium. Even the reason that he did give in was because he thought he was no longer worthy to join Dalinar. The only people that can't be redeemed are the ones that have long ago killed their conscience, and wrap the world in their own internal failings so that they can continue to believe that it's ok to be unrepentant jerk wads.

I think you've pinpointed the moment when a NPO was created, PETS (People for the Ethical Treatment of Spren). The Cult of Moments seem like the perfect people to communicate this message, highly theatrical and mob like in the extreme. I personally believe in the the ethical treatment of animals (and spren) but there is an egotistical singularity that exists in sanctimonious crusades like this where the substance of the matter gets pulled away and all that is left is the naked egotistical impulse of hey look at me, aren't I so great, and this is actually a disservice to the cause (sorry for the anti PETA rant, but I think they take a positive human impulse, to help animals, and pervert it in service of their own sanctimonious egos)

@Greywatch, I think that there is a certain suspension of disbelief that is necessary to truly understand Amaram's character. He is a true believer in a religion, that we as readers know, is deeply flawed. We see that his actions that he perceives are for the greater good of Roshar, are really counterproductive, but we don't see the world through the same lens that Meridas does. For a man that has built his whole identity on the principle of Honor (though some might argue with Meridas that it's the external perception of honor that matters most to him), to find out that there might be a way to restore the pantheon of Saints to the world (the Heralds) and bring Honor directly back to the world, the greater good of reviving Honor would trump the lesser sins of killing Kaladin's men and stealing the blade. Ultimately he is earnest but misdirected. I would take 100 Amarams over a single Sadeas any day because Amaram offers the hope that his earnestness can be directed along the right path. While Sadeas does what he does out of boredom, a desire for the thrill of conquest mixed with his feelings of innate superiority. Sadeas is an inveterate crem-hole, the Adolin solution is the best that can be hoped for in cases like his, but Amaram is not beyond redemption. That is the internal tension of his character, and the thing that makes me ultimately sad that he died. He wanted to be better than he was, and that is true tragedy.

I am probably in the minority in that like @Toaster Retribution I really like the character of Meridas Amaram. The fact that when Shallan infiltrates his manor she sees, along with all his secret society Sons of Honor paraphernalia, his flute collection, hints at the fact that we didn't really know him at all. I read this scene slightly differently than you @digitalbusker or toaster, this scene is Meridas finally accepting that he is in a separate faction from Dalinar, and after accepting this fact he wants to hurt Dalinar, like he was hurt when he was kicked out of the Knights Radiant. It's not really an attempt to close the discussion as much as it's an attempt to find the soft spot and twist the knife.

@ElvisSpren totally agree, takes a real jerk wad to imprison sentient life to effect modern convenience. "Hey you, partially aware wind spren, I need you to live in my blender so I can have smoothies." Or: "Hey you, pretty intelligent flame spren, you're going to live in my toaster for eternity. You're pretty smart right, can you burn the glyph for love into that piece of lavis toast, it's our anniversary and I'm making breakfast for the little lady." I also felt bad for the enslaved animals in the Flinstones, and I think Rosharans might be even bigger Yabba-dabba-douches than the Bedrockians. Come on guys, you can make watches with gears and springs. Geesh. That said, the infinity gauntlet idea is freaking amazing. That's not enslavement, that's gathering a posse of willing spren that want to be part of something EPIC.

Woah, @MonsterMetroid I think you just stumbled onto the Onomatopoeia for the sound of a dropped thread in a story, "Thuud"