Ailvara

Ahh sorry. I'm talking about Shallan's cool stormlight maps. Might be nothing. Might be something.

Because we still happen to come upon new stuff, that's why! You guys have already explained everything beautifully, I just have one more little gem to point to (sorry if someone mentioned it, I might have missed sth). When Kaladin says he only had time for utilitarian pictures, he doesn't mention his surgery folios - which must had taken a lot of his life. He specifically mentions maps for some reason, even though we never saw him using them that much. But then there's that another character that I immediately think of when someone mentions maps in the context of OB. Now I wish we saw Kaladin's reaction to one of these ahh.

It's a sort of scenario that came to my mind immediately after reading some part of the sample chapters. After OB came out I discarded it... until someone spotted that Kaladin had never actually seen Veil. It's not like there were no occasions. Even when Shallan was Veil around him, she specifically never looked like her. It's so convenient and also rather against probability, that it screams intentional to me. Although the implications can get a bit... too cringy.

I don't see anyone doing WoT? Ok, let's open this sack of characters. You can add a question mark to each of these... Rand - some strong Bondsmithing business here Moiraine - a cool-headed woman with a mission, I'd go with Elsecaller Egwene - she's one of the most impatient and adventure-inclined from the start, which makes me think maybe Willshaper Nynaeve - needs surge of Progression, Edgedancer would probably fit a bit better than Truthwatcher Mat I-am-no-hero... Windrunner? Galad - Skybreaker

It's all spot-on, but this bit is just the best. Basically, in OB Adolin gets a happy romantic ending at the expense of Kaladin, largely because he's a privileged guy from an influential family. It'd be bad in the best circumstances, but in the light of Kaladin's overall storyline... This is a slap in the face. Even if Kaladin doesn't see it this way, because he is too busy persuading himself he'd not be worth it anyway, it's still there.

I have one question for you guys. If there was no casual in the first place, or even if Adolin's and Kaladin's situations were reversed - ie for some reason Shallan would be engaged to Kaladin from the start and pushed in some ways to stick to it - do you think she would end up with Adolin nevertheless? Because, see, what bothers me, is that I think not. We can argue, but I don't see any reason for it to happen. He wouldn't pursue her or catch her interest, there would be no reason for them to interact much either. He wouldn't look after her, not so much at least. It'd be like her and Kaladin, but minus chatting about scientific stuff, connection over brokenness and her gaping at him being awesome. So while Adolin certainly worked on the relationship and the casual wouldn't be enough for them to get married, I believe both factors were necessary for the given outcome. Him being a prince and Jasnah's influence wouldn't be enough, but it not only helped, it did co-determine the existence of Adolin and Shallan's relationship. And I do deeply despise that his family and social status were so decisive in all this. (before you point that out - I don't get into the discussion here whether in the reverse situation Kaladin wouldn't screw it all up, we can speculate but that's beside the point; even if he was never in the picture, I'd still think the same)

He's not darkeyed anymore, he's 4th dahn. So it's gone for him. Yes, but he had time to think about the lands for him, which I think is less important in their situation, and probably required a bit more thinking.

It's a bit of a sidenote, but it bothers me just a little that Kaladin is still a captain. It sounds well, but doesn't make sense anymore. He's been commanding a battalion for a while and now that the darkeyes' glass ceiling is gone, I would imagine some adjustments in ranks would be logical. And more practically meaningful than giving him a piece of land that'll probably be falling to Odium's forces soon enough with the rest of Alethkar.

So, once he revives Maya, how much longer will he have left to live? It'll be even worse than killing him off, because we'll have one more Radiant, one more similar point of view in addition to losing the different one. Actually, I don't dislike Adolin that much as a character. I deeply dislike his arc. I'm fine with him being a rather plain and nice kind of person, it happens - as long as he's not too central ofc, but his personality is quite fine for a supporting character. It's his storyline that might be on the way to drive me mad... If he succeeds with his marriage, highprince'ing and reviving Maya, I'll be puking rainbows. I agree his death probably wouldn't have much more impact on the Kholins than that of Elhokar and Jasnah - although it should for Dalinar, at least. But I think it would have an absolutely huge impact on Shallan, not only emotionally, but in light of her anchoring her mask to him. It'd serve perfectly as a way of making her hit the bottom and wake from the dream. I can imagine it as a very powerful moment. And yes, that would be in line with treating him as a tool... Edit: hah, @SLNC was first with almost every thought I had here xD

One thing baffles me. Brandon is remarkably good at avoiding Mary Sues, especially considering how OP his characters tend to get. Just look at storming Kaladin. He basically stepped out from the "Mary Sue for beginners" cooking book, and after a few additional spices here and there... he's awesome. There were certain concerns about him after WoR, but from what I've read, OB left mostly everyone satisfied (hopefully we'll have a similar effect with Adolin in books 3+4). All in all, what a fine line Brandon's walking here, and how well he does it. So what in the world is Adolin doing here, especially if it all goes on as some people think? (and, sigh, they might partly be right) Prince Charming, handsome, talented, supportive, influential (and seemingly above the law), with scarce flaws talked about but never shown, blah, blah, everything has been said about that. PLUS he gets the girl and lives happily ever after since book 3/10 PLUS he becomes a KR - and in no typical circumstances for that matter, but achieves the thing that is impossible among impossible, all thanks to his heart of gold. Is Brandon suddenly a 12-year old girl switching to fanfiction business? Does it stand to reason that this could be the course of action? Either Adolin takes a very back seat, dies or something of the above explodes in his face, or I bet there'll be more readers than me throwing the next book out of the window. I for one refuse to believe that any author with a half of Brandon's talent would go much further into this fairy tale.

It just made me think about the things that Brandon was moving between books. The way Adolin almost died in Oathbringer but was so conveniently and quickly healed by Renarin felt a little anticlimactic. There is no way to know I suppose, but do you think it's possible Adolin was supposed to be killed off then, but because of certain storylines being not exactly in the right place yet he couldn't? The scene of Adolin getting wounded would stay because it's important for Kaladin's arc, just with a tweaked resolution. I don't know. I'm still partly in the "Adolin getting dark" camp, which doesn't fit at all, but I guess it's fun to consider all possibilities.

Well, Adolin is not only better at reading men, he's all in all much better at relationships with men, those with women he subconsciously sabotages and apparently only keeps getting into them because he has to. Shallan is easier for him to deal with, especially since he can teach her sword fighting and other guy stuff. Still, she is usually the one initiating the more romantic side of their relationship, while he's all neutral if not openly crushing on Kaladin. If he isn't at least bisexual, I don't know what this is. In the end, it's not Kaladin who has fueled the Kadolin ship all on his own. I wonder if it's another subconscious effect or something else.

I think it was exactly like this in WoK/WoR, that Shallan put a mask over her bruised self the way all people do to some extent and it's ofc not creating a persona. But in OB when she fractures, this mask is all that's left of her after her other, usually more hidden traits get pushed into Veil and Radiant. And that's imo how these issues are related. I don't think the "realShallan theory" is about any secret persona. It's just that realShallan is consisted of all Shallan, Veil, Radiant and stuff hidden in the back of her head.

Ah, I get you now. Well, I just think there's no contradiction between someone getting killed being right and someone murdering that person being wrong. It's like everyone is happy someone else took care of the dirty job and storm them... I agree external consequences might be over, but my point was related to the fact that Adolin has decayed morally and that's independent from external consequences.

If she told him now, I think he might get over it. Right after he confessed his own murder, right when they share secrets naturally at the relative beginning of their relationship. To find out after a few months/years of marriage that your wife has been hiding so many skeletons in her closet and never bothered to mention it when there was time for that... Much harder. (and if he finds that she told Kaladin about her father but not him, I doubt he'll swallow that so easily) We only see Dalinar's reaction apart from Shallan's and he's not mad, but not exactly thrilled either. Adolin has been thinking of it, but Shallan reassured him, which might admittedly be either good or bad, we'll see. Anyway, this quote from Adolin himself is what got me: So I know Azure made some good counter-points to that... But I liked and respected this Adolin much more.

Sorry if it's a bit off current topic, but I just watched a really nice video that hits many points we have already discussed and at least one that I don't think we have (it's all quite spot-on, so I recommend watching, triangle discussion starts at 10:00). (https://youtu.be/XxRJjXC8I8I) Anyway, the point I mean is that not only Adolin might be a bad influence for Shallan in some points, but she can be seen as a bad influence for him. She is the one to tell him that he made a good thing killing Sadeas. She is the one pushing him just a bit into not accepting the responsibility of becoming a king. Alethi will most probably be better with Jasnah as captain, but still... He wouldn't know at that time anyway. He just resigned without any alternative candidate in mind. All in all, from the perspective of his morality it doesn't look very well to me. Also, the suggestion that if she's looking for someone to help and stabilize her, she should marry Hoid made me lol hard. So true.

Actually, I read it as even stronger evidence for her playing with masks: that she wrapped the Shallan-lie in Veil-lie, both of them put over her real self.

So what you mean is, that it's a mostly healthy and reintegrated Shallan who makes the decision at the end? Or that the part of her that dominates is right to dominate and Veil and Radiant don't matter? Or that they'll truly fall in line and be happy with Adolin eventually?

The main reason I loved it is that I knew what to expect and still didn't realize it happened at the moment it actually did. It was like being one step ahead of the story all the time only to find out that bang! now when it matters I'm actually one step behind, looking behind and stumbling. And then bang! the final blow, it's actually two steps behind and for as long as since the murder of the emissaries.

My theory is that it's because Shallan is one oath ahead of Kaladin. It influences the efficiency of stormlight use, so maybe it reduces leaks that can be spotted or something like this.

I'm so glad it convinced you. Too many people just drop that it didn't (which is fine) and never explain why (which isn't so cool). My initial reasoning was exactly the opposite. Adolin has everything that a human being can ask for, at least all he can be given without doing much on his own - looks, position, family, wealth, talent... He's the most privileged of the privileged (and I'm not usually sensitive about this). Everything Kaladin has is his own doing. He deserves some storming luck for a change.

Does this mean, that Navani, Adolin and Taravangian were/are all planned as radiants of the same orders as Renarin, Lift and Eshonai, to keep the "one per order"book plan? That would give Lift stepping into the place of Adolin I guess, I'm not so sure about how Navani and Taravangian would fit the Willshaper and Truthwatcher books...

That's my idea as well. In this case I wouldn't imagine Adolin going down the path of young Dalinar... but I can see still see him going all Darth Vader. A bit of clever manipulation and a desperate situation can make a good man fall without even realizing it before it's too late. And in this comparison unyielding loyalty and caring for his loved ones actually turns out to be a liability.

In this case I meant that particular bit I quoted. That he couldn't be interested in a girl who would need a maid to do her hair on a special mission.

Reminder that Syl is the one who truly knows Kaladin. Is this a hint that he lies to himself and the end of OB? I would like to highlight the fact, that to dismiss his feelings he specifically uses an argument that is so hilariously and hugely false.