Ailvara

12 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

What if group 3 is meant to be Venli and Moash/Vyre?

Cool theory, but doesn't fit the outline. Venli has POV in Part 1 which doesn't include Group 3.

My current best guess is:

Group 1: Kaladin, Navani, Venli, Dalinar, Lirin

Group 2: Shallan, Adolin

Group 3: Renarin, Jasnah

By popular assumption, Shallan and Adolin in Group 2. They have an arc set up that is very important to the plot (makes Group 3 less likely) but separate from the main conflict (makes Group 1 less likely), it doesn't look like they're joined by too many, if any, main characters (almost rules out Group 1) and they are both prominent in Part 1, with Shallan's POVs (which pretty much excludes Group 3).

That leaves Kaladin, Navani and Venli in Group 1 since they have their POVs in Part 1 and come on, none of these is going to fall into tertiary plot in this book.

I believe that for the moment Lirin fits perfectly the description of the very minor character with one POV in Group 1. He's also likely to stick around as a secondary character given he's coming to Urithiru and he's bound to have some interactions at least with Kaladin. That prevents him from being so minor that we should exclude him altogether and look for another slightly less minor character with one POV instead, which we don't have now anyway.

In Group 1 I'm less sure about Dalinar, but it makes most sense to assume this group will be tied to everything around the main conflict, war, politics, Urithiru, arms race and so on, and I can hardly imagine him staying out of it. He appears in Part 1 without POV which would make him the second character of Groups 1 and 2 who doesn't have POVs yet (as we have 7 characters in these groups and 5 POVs in Part 1; Adolin being the second one). If Jasnah or Renarin becomes more involved in Part 1 later on, and it's about the main conflict, I may reconsider.

Finally, Group 3, which I'm least sure of. Jasnah is going to have some chapters, so she should be included somewhere, but not many, which makes her fit Group 3 well enough. My best bet at who is the last character counted in the groups is Renarin, mostly due to his importance. Another possibility would be Szeth, but it looks like he only has an interlude, so he wouldn't be counted in any group after all, which leaves Renarin without decent competition. Having him interact with Jasnah a lot also makes sense. The biggest question is, since they will most likely stay close to Group 1, what could be so distinct about them that would make them a separate plotline. My theory is that, using Renarin's Truthwatcher powers and Jasnah's political instinct, they will be the ones to deal with Taravangian. They could also move from Urithiru to the warcamps and have some problems to deal with there, separated from Urithiru.

I bet even when Stormlight Archive is all finished there will still remain people speculating if back between OB and RoW, during a memory lapse, Shallan didn't hide her unborn baby in a special incubator fabrial and write fanfiction about the kid's wild adventures worldhopping around Cosmere. Eventually, he'll inherit lightweaving skills after his mum, go back in time and dye his hair white so that nobody can recognize him by the black-blonde-ginger mix.

TBH, I don't see Kal as surgeon anymore. His character arc is directed towards finding ways to protect people without making him kill other people. It would be very anticlimactic if it suddenly turned out that "haha, it's been what he was doing at the beginning of the book, full circle! Lirin was right all along, there is no other decent way to protect people!" Just... please don't.

His struggles won't be resolved by this - in fact, they can even get worse. When he studied with his father, that's when his problems with responsibility and loss first emerged. If he has patients dying on his hands now, will it make it easier for him to accept the inevitable? If he couldn't come to terms with that back when he was their only hope, I can't imagine how he would suddenly do now in a world where people who can heal any wound actually exist and he's never going to be one of them.

And he seems way over that part of his life too. Among all his conversations and thoughts there is never a hint that he misses being a surgeon or has any regrets about not being one whatsoever. He isn't sure who he wants to be, but he knows who he doesn't want to be. When he talks to his father, he is so confident when he says (paraphrasing): "no, you are the surgeon, I am something else". He isn't sure what this else is yet, but he knows that's what he needs to be - something else. I just reread a part of WoR where he wonders how he could probably ask Dalinar to make him a surgeon, but only in the context that his father would be disappointed, not in any way that he would want that.

1 hour ago, Bliev said:

But I'll disagree with this: all of her facets accept Adolin and the marriage, even if Shallan channeled her self doubt into Veil's preference for another. I don't think she has any part of her that regrets her relationship with Adolin or doesn't accept it as good for her. We've seen no evidence of regret in these chapters, and given the SA focus on choice, her explicit choice at the end of OB is critical to the theme.

It has been beaten to death, hasn't it?  Just for clarity, the explicit choice was on part of "Shallan" with Veil and Radiant inclined towards Kaladin but pushed away and put in line. They do accept Adolin as "Shallan"'s husband and means of keeping her stable, but they don't have any warmer relationship with him themselves, right? These two things I believe are quite clearly stated and non-controversial. Then, in the end, it pretty much comes down to whether you consider Veil and Radiant parts of "whole" Shallan. If you believe the "real Shallan" has chosen Adolin, who sees her and so on, and she just created some people in her mind who don't care for him, they might still live happily ever after. But if you acknowledge that Veil is as much Shallan as "Shallan" is, well... then her choice starts to look fishy and promises nothing but trouble down her road to self-awareness.

My little theory is that Veil and Radiant accept the state of things because they are afraid that, without Adolin, Shallan will literally "wilt/fade" as she's said, leaving the two of them alone and no longer balanced, at the threat of either disappearing too (in other words: reintegrating) or having Formless emerge to take the empty spot. We've seen Veil acting as a caretaker for "Shallan" and also how she's scared of Formless, which adds up.

1 hour ago, Bliev said:

I'll also maintain (though of course there is a mega thread hashing all of this out already and I don't want to tread down that path again because massive migraine lol) that Adolin is the absolute best match for Shallan at all stages of her illness and journey, and I think that her insecurities here are less about the health of her marriage per se and more of an internal struggle, albeit one that can certainly threaten her marriage if she lets it. 

It might look on paper that he would have some good influence on her mental health. But we haven't seen it in practice so far. Damnation, she even created Radiant under his (unwitting) pressure in the first place! The fact that Shallan still does what she does (nurturing her insecurities, lying to herself and everyone etc) indicates that, whatever she needs now, she isn't getting it from Adolin. You could argue he "recognised" her and so stopped her erratic switching from one alter to another - but it can as easily be seen as him strengthening one of the alters at the expense of the other ones, and so enabling her fracturing (so it still comes down to whether you consider "Shallan" the only "real" alter or not). Some people also say she is better now than in OB. But the truth is, she is better than she was in late OB but kind of the same - or worse - as she was at the very end of it (the pre-wedding scene). Which means a year of love and safety didn't do much to let her heal, in the end. AFAIR these two uncertain arguments are the only ones given in text so far. I'm interested to see more if you've got any!

Word of clarification: sure, at the moment the only people both Shallan and Kaladin should be seeing are their, sadly nonexistent, therapists. If I "ship" them it's because I think about it in the long-run, in the perspective that once they'll largely have dealt with their respective cans of worms.

18 hours ago, Bliev said:

haha...nah, Kal is *fine*, but her blowing up her excellent relationship with stable, well-adjusted, hot Adolin to go for the hot, broody fixer-upper who hates himself would be a bit of a self-destructive move. Albeit one that every teenager has considered making in their life at one point or another, I'm sure. 

You may consider him excellent all you want, but their relationship as a whole seems to be far from that.

Quote

That was the trap she’d found herself in. The more he trusted her, the worse she felt. And she didn’t know  how to get out. She couldn’t get out.

Please, she whispered. Save me.

Ultimately, Shallan needs to face the truth(s) and here she is, trapped in her lies, scared to death her husband wouldn't love her if he really knew her, unable to ever fully embrace all facets of herself since the rest of them barely accept the guy (and mutually). Sounds just perfect. That's what happens when you get married without even talking through any important stuff.

5 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

I figure that we are 1/2 way through part one at this point and still no Venli. She has to be next. We need something to pick us up from that gut punch of an ending.

I think, given the parallels, we need to see the intro-finale gut punch for Shallan first, and then Venli.

30 minutes ago, TMC29ZX said:

We know from Syl’s that now is the time Kaladin will be a surgeon.

Ever since that interlude people keep saying Kaladin is back to being a surgeon for a time. But the actual wording is:

Quote

She needed to help Kaladin. Perhaps he would be satisfied as a surgeon, and it would be good for him to not have to kill anymore. 

This doesn't say anything about him actually going down that path, it's only Syl speculating about options again.

As for the chapter, storms. Even with vaguely knowing what was coming it hit hard.

11 hours ago, Scriptorian said:

I’m going to be contrary and push back against the idea that “Shallan” is a persona in the same way that Veil and Radiant are. Before OB, where Shallan starts having her current problems with disassociation, we see her already asserting that her current self is “lie” because she believes she should instead be the broken and utterly despondent image she shows Pattern. The thing is, I think this is her being an unreliable narrator: Shallan thinks it’s impossible that she can be the not-broken, sassy person we see her as in most of her POVs. But this is not necessarily true. Granted, she undergoes changes (dare I say, character development) through WoK to WoR, but there’s a consistent through line with her character arc and her personality. 

She was a person made of an inscrutable mix of truth and lies long before OB disassociation. The whole problem is, in order to be an 'unbroken' person Shallan took a shortcut and buried her memories. What she truly needs to do is to be a person who remembers her whole trauma and then still keeps going. Whoever that person turns out be, needs to be a mix of both how she's been influenced by the darkness inside her and how she would stand up to it. It won't be the same sassy girl from WoK - and she doesn't necessarily even want to be that:

Quote

She drew upon the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever.

Her humor and wit was a coping mechanism destined to keep her family together and keep her safe in the first place. I can imagine deep down she somewhat hates it for that.

11 hours ago, Scriptorian said:

But because she believes that she is fundamentally broken, she attributes her newfound self-confidence and competence to just another layer of lies. At this point, this seemed pretty clearly to just be part of her pathological inability to see herself in a positive light. This reaches critical mass in Oathbringer, where, because she assumes that “Shallan” is broken and incompetent, she developed alternate personas, each of whom are allowed to be competent and functional in their spheres. In my arm-chair opinion, the only reason Veil and Radiant exist is because Shallan will not acknowledge to herself that she is capable of everything that her personas are. And while Investiture certainly complicates this assessment; I don’t think her personas have external validity other than as an expression of Shallan’s pathology. It’s all Shallan; just an extreme form of psychological dissociation reinforced by her surgebinding. 

I... don't understand. Of course, it is all Shallan. Some alters got in the split more of her 'core' personality and some more of her coping mechanisms but 'Shallan', Veil, Radiant and Formless are all Shallan. That's exactly why she can't just take back her abilities from them and run. They are not separate people:

Quote

DID was called multiple personality disorder up until 1994, when the name was changed to reflect a better understanding of the condition—namely, that it is characterized by a fragmentation or splintering of identity, rather than by a proliferation or growth of separate personalities.

So no, she didn't just create Veil and Radiant - she split into 'Shallan', Veil and Radiant. How good we can finally rely on real-world DID to settle things like that.

11 hours ago, Scriptorian said:

Some people seem to be taking Shallan’s word for everything when it comes to her personas. The thing is, we can say with absolute certainty that she is far from a reliable narrator. In particular, we know that she considered “Shallan” to be fake long before the personas developed. Until Oathbringer, we had no reason to assume that her personality was literally a magical construct with ontological distinctness from whoever she originally was, which is what some are treating Veil and Radiant as. 

She did have a reason. She knew, even if deep, deep down, that she already created the first (or, as we call it here, 4th) alter long ago as a child. That she buried the part of her identity and personality that had anything to do with her mother's murder. There are hints of that in WoR already e.g. WRT to her drawing. She always knew.

As for her being unreliable narrator, sure. She is unreliable, for example, when she says that she's accepted her pain and that she doesn't deserve it (see chapter 8; chapter 9 makes it clear she accepted neither). The problem with 'Shallan' being fakest is that it's been hinted at numerous times and not only through Shallan's words:

Quote

 "Veil is the false identity, Mraize," Shallan said.  "I am me."

He inspected her.  "I think not."

She met that gaze, but shivered inside.

Quote

I was suspicious when Veil… when you told me to go on this mission, she said. Then I saw the illusions, and guessed. She paused. I had it reversed. I though Brightness Shallan was the persona.

As for 'magical construct with ontological distinctness', I've already addressed that.

11 hours ago, Scriptorian said:

As I’ve alluded to previously, I don’t think the key to her character development is going to be based on remembering more dark buried secrets that reveal what a horrible person she is. Though there very well could be more dark terrible things in her past that we haven’t discovered yet, she already thinks of herself as a monster without having remembered them. Her development isn’t going to be based around her somehow being worse than she already thinks (she already assumes the worst about herself). Her entire arc up till this point is based around her inability let herself move past the things she’s done (Radiant was created as an almost direct consequence of her being unable to face having killed her mother). The personas aren’t the solution, they are just another way of her dodging her need to let herself be herself. 

Yes, she needs to remember, not in order to see how terrible she is, but in order to embrace it, accept it, forgive herself and go on. Same as Dalinar had to accept his guilt in order to become properly freed of it. You can't move on if you just keep running away.

11 hours ago, Scriptorian said:

Dalinar’s whole arc in Oathbringer was about taking responsibility for who he used to be, while still moving forward. Shallan doesn’t need to accept that “Shallan” is just a lie and find who she really is; she needs to accept that she is Shallan, flaws and all, but, more importantly, that she is worth fixing. The lie that she has to overcome is that she is not worthy of redemption.  

You're still assuming here 'Shallan' is some main and true persona and the rest of alters are made-up. This is not how DID works. This would all be just right if not for this assumption. But as it is, yes, she absolutely needs to accept that 'Shallan' is a lie but it doesn't mean she'll go looking for her true personality somewhere. It's all there in her fractured self already. 'Shallan' on her own doesn't even need redemption - without accepting Formless, the 'frenzied child who had murdered her mother' as part of herself, there is nothing there to redeem.

So happy to see more and more evidence towards what we've been saying since the end of OB - and more people realizing it. I'm even happy many still disagree, otherwise I'd feel like Brandon has made things way too obvious.

4 hours ago, Harbour said:

Shallan's deeper secrets than even killing her father and mother. He life being lie. Formless.

Can't wait for her to start living her true life. It's bound to get deliciously messy before she does though.

2 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

But...but...Adolin knows Shallan is the real one. He knows her. That's what OB ending told me. And Adolin is never wrong!

In all seriousness though, I thought that after 3 years of not reading Stormlight, and stepping away from Brandon's work for a while that I would be over my distaste for the way Shadolin was done. (I still have not done a full reread of OB, and no reread of of the other books either). But nope, this chapter just brought it all back to me. I'll cop to that, I'll own it. I'm massively @#$-hurt over it, and it has become clear that time has not changed that fact. I don't know how I'm going to read a book where half the plot is going to involve a major journey of two characters whose interactions with each other trigger a mild form of revulsion in me. But, you know, that's my problem to figure it out, and it's not the end of the world if I don't. I'll just know its time for me to bow out of this series.

IKR? Just compare Shallan clinging to Adolin and smelling his shirt to how lovingly Navani thinks of Dalinar.

Brandon can do it, he just chose not to.

3 hours ago, Rainier said:

As for the other....

I've been saying this since WoR, so it's nice to get some confirmation in black and white.

High five.

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

"main Shallan" also a mask confirmed!

The question remains, what will Adolin do once he realizes this. Or Shallan once she truly faces this. It's not like he and "the rest of her" seem married or in love in any way.

Well, both the existence of the 4th alter that terrifies Shallan and the fact that 'Shallan' is the fakest of them all has just been spelled out:

Quote

And deep within Shallan, something else stirred. Formless. She had told herself that she would never create a new persona, and she wouldn’t. Formless wasn’t real.

But the possibility of it frightened Veil. And anything that frightened Veil terrified Shallan.

Quote

Because of the truths she hid, her entire life was a lie. Shallan, the one they all knew best, was the fakest mask of them all.

1 hour ago, HipsterStick said:

I’ve got cousins that are CONVINCED that Dalinar is toast, but I’m with you on this one- I think he’s too important to be killed off. I could maybe see a kind of bait-and-switch moment where people think he’s dead but he ain’t- but then again, Sanderson did this with Jasnah and Kelsier, and he’s not the type of author to get too predictable.

In book 5 - who knows (though I think he's got greater things in store for him ). But the fact that he'll survive this one is confirmed (and not even considered a spoiler apparently) - here's the wob I wasn't sure if I remembered correctly: 

That said, we're definitely up for a major defeat, if it's not in this book then the next one will be... interesting.

I think it's highly unlikely Dalinar will die in this book. He was supposed to be the flashback character for the 5th one originally (I know, Eshonai... but this is very different, he couldn't get such development after death, come on). Also Brandon said he'd like him on the cover of the last book, that it would fit, I also vaguely remember him telling there's going to be more Dalinar in book 5 than 4 but I'm not sure about this last one.

30 minutes ago, The Traveller said:

  agree with you. I do not at all agree with @Ailvara that Wok shallan is the ideal desirable state for shallan. Wok shallan, maskShallan is not all mentally stable. She has suppressed her memories to an extent that she suppresses her full potential also. She is radiant who cannot use her powers. She has a blade she can not summon. She has As good as killed her spren. I would hardly call her functional. MaskShallan surely is an alter ego, the scholar, that has been created to deal with the needs of her family and nothing more. 

Therefore saying that wok shallan is the ideal she needs to achieve is same as saying that she needs to get rid of veil and radiant and she was fine as she was in wok. But I disagree. Shallan Is disassociated true but I still see it as progress for her. 

You completely missed the "with the added self-awareness part, which makes all the difference. Also no, she isn't supposed to discard Veil and Radiant, they were part of Shallan in WoK which is exactly my point.

16 hours ago, Calderis said:

Exactly this. Kaladin has depression. He can learn to cope with that and it will get "better" but it will never go away. Dalinar faced and accepted the actions he fled from, but he will always live with that guilt, and he will always be a recovering alcoholic. 

Shallan will stabilize and improve. But she will always have a dissociative disorder, even if she reintigrates. The primary reason I want her to not reintigrate is so that we, as readers, are not mislead into thinking she is "fixed." 

That balance absolutely is fragile at the moment. But I also don't see this as as big a sign of that as I think most people do. 

Shallan's low in OB was very bad. Whatever progress she has made in the past year was not instant, and those events are not that far gone. I read this section as someone who has reached a point of relative stability... But that that state is so new as to be in perpetual doubt. Which is in itself a danger. 

I think what I've written - that Shallan will reintegrate but remain very fragile and always be at risk of spiraling down again given another distress - is about in line with what you're saying. The difference is that you believe that such state of fragile reintegration would be too subtle for readers to realize. Either I believe in Brandon's ability more (with the help from his DID-suffering betas) or care less about what inattentive readers think. I also understand you care more personally about how it'll land and so would like him to choose the "safer" path in that regard.

I think it's also crucial that Shallan didn't start her journey split as she is now. I find it hard to imagine she'd end up the series in a worse place than she started. Given the analogy to Kaladin and how he'll always suffer from his depression - he had it even before Tien's death and all that followed. I think he'll achieve more or less that state of mind by the end but with progress in the related areas, e.g. resilience to losing those he feels responsible about. So similarly Shallan, her benchmark isn't end of OB from which she needs to make a progress - her benchmark is WoK so she should end up similarly stable mentally (as we know today and not as we'd know when only starting WoK) but with all the added self-awareness.

Edit: One more think that came to my mind is, even though Brandon will tweak the details, he wouldn't change some major things as a result of this "shift of direction". For example, whatever he's got planned as Lightweaver's 5th Ideal, I don't think he'd change it. And given "I am law" we can expect not another precise truth about Shallan's past but something very vague, encompassing, summing up all previous Ideals. "I am me" or "I am Shallan, and Veil, and Radiant, and that frenzied child who killed her mother" something of the sorts. She's already aware of being each of these separately now so what's left is for her to become aware of being them all as one.

16 hours ago, agrabes said:

...

Like you've said, we must agree to disagree. Unlike most real-world unresolved discussions, I hope we'll get answer one way or another eventually and so will be able to close it.

Wow, that's a thorough analysis! Even though I don't agree with everything, I appreciate it. It also let me see why you don't agree with mine - this looks more like poetical symbolism than foreshadowing. If that's what you see in the wine/alters then I understand - such things are so volatile and open to interpretation where no answer is right or wrong. I just see the symbolism of 4 wines-4 alters as more grounded because it's a 1 to 1 allegory with no threads to add or remove. I agree the "sweet" part is confusing - I'm thinking maybe it's irrelevant to this particular topic but needs to be there for that "second" hidden meaning but I'm not sure.

Edit: Let's look at the whole paragraph:

Quote

It’s sweet, fermented from a fruit, not a grain. It reminds me of visits to Gavilar’s wineries. I would guess it an Alethi vintage, rescued before the kingdom fell, made from simberries. The flesh of the fruit is clear, and they took great care to remove the rinds. Revealing what was truly inside.

So the "sweet" here is not necessarily for its own sake. It's the consequence of "fermented from a fruit, not a grain". Veil was created before Shallan fully splitting but after her possible split in her childhood. So the child, "original/pre-trauma Shallan" would be a grain here and the grown-up "WoR Shallan" a fruit and "rescued before the kingdom fell" can refer to the fact that Veil was created before she started spiraling down after speaking her 4th truth and so is more true to the source than Radiant. "I would guess it an Alethi vintage" - Veil was made to look like Alethi, unlike Shallan who has ginger (orange) hair.

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

This. So much of this. 

It's infuriating. And why I keep reiterating that the stigma towards it, and the general attitude of "but it's not normal so if it doesn't go away it's unhealthy" has far more to do with the comfort of the people observing than it does with the health and stability of the person actually suffering the condition, and negates the progress that they've worked so hard to achieve. 

There's a difference between functional and healthy. Having multiple people in one mind doesn't have to be crippling. It may not always be possible - or indispensable - to heal it. But it is still something to be talked about in terms of healing. If it was someone with a physical chronic condition, I don't think we'd have much misunderstanding here. Such person may take medicine that let them lead a completely normal life and yet will never be considered completely healthy because they still need that medicine. An alcoholic also will always be an alcoholic even if they never have a beer in their life again, because that unhealthy coping mechanism is still in their psyche and if they did have that one beer they could spiral down again so quickly.

There's also a difference between stigmatizing and acknowledging something as unhealthy. Is it fair to treat that someone with chronic condition or that someone who got out of alcoholism as if they were a ticking bomb, refuse to employ them or be friends with them? No. But it also doesn't mean we should try to persuade the first one to stop taking their medicine because "they seem completely fine and surely don't need it" or invite the second one to a night of heavy drinking. This is what treating them as healthy would mean!

So, in terms of Shallan, I think she'll reintegrate but it won't be all sunshine and unicorns either. She'll still be at heavy risk of splitting again at any moment. Given another difficult moment her alters will start peeking out again, only she'll be better equipped to get out of that sooner. 

The way I understood it was that the problem with interpreting this scene as symbolic is for you that:

1) For characters to convey a hidden meaning it's necessary for them in-world to know about that meaning, and:

2) That Brandon doesn't make direct remarks that are primarily intended for the reader and not for something in-world.

This is what these examples prove. They don't need to be identical to do that.

12 hours ago, agrabes said:

But he doesn't use symbolism like this - he doesn't have Character A say something in Character B's presence that is not about Character B and assume that we as readers to infer that there actually is a symbolic reference being made about Character B.

This isn't this scenario. This is character A and character B talking together and not just talking. Veil drinks a very specific wine. Shallan drinks a very specific wine. And Shallan decides not to drink a very specific wine. Half of what happens in this scene would be completely coincidental if not for this hidden meaning and if something isn't in Brandon's style it's coincidence.

12 hours ago, agrabes said:

The wine scene isn't foreshadowing.  It isn't showing us more detail into how Veil/Shallan/Radiant see themselves (none of them consider the possibility that Ialai's comments have anything to do with them) or insight into how other characters see them (Ialai doesn't know or even suspect that Shallan has DID).  I think one or the other is required if we are going to consider this foreshadowing.  The scene where Mraize says he thinks Veil is the "true" personality -could- be foreshadowing, because it is laying out a possibility for us to consider as readers based on the opinions of characters.  Or, it could be a red herring.  We don't know what will happen yet.  The wine scene is not because it is not showing us the opinion of a character nor is it showing us an example of something happening to give us a hint of something similar possibly happening in the future.

Why in the world would showing an opinion of a character be required to create foreshadowing? It can be as simple as using a very specific word or phrase in a description instead of any other one that would convey the same thing literally. It can be delivered in the form of mirroring arcs when we already know what happened in Story 1, see that some similar things happening in Story 2 and so infer what will happen further in Story 2. It can be anything at all that on reread makes you think "oh, it was hinted at here"!

Also, why would foreshadowing be about what happens in the future? It only needs to be about what will be revealed in the future. In this case, that Veil is the most "clear/uninfluenced" part of Shallan, Radiant the "idealized" one and 'Shallan the "fake/superficial" one. For me it's been obvious for a while but many people still claim 'Shallan' is the real one and the rest she should get rid of. This is what the surface of OB ending has suggested. What this scene foreshadows is the moment when this will be proven wrong once and for all.

On 18/08/2020 at 11:11 PM, agrabes said:

Right - but to me that doesn't make sense.  For him to be making a symbolic reference, it would have to be tied to something in world.  That's not his style - he doesn't write in symbolism that we as readers are supposed to interpret as a message from him (Brandon Sanderson) to us, the readers.  If he is giving a hint or symbolic message, it's always contained within the story - from one in world character to another.  So it doesn't make sense that Ialai would be doing things intended to symbolize the qualities of Shallan's personas because she doesn't know they exist.

The only way this makes sense is if someone who is clued in such as Hoid, Mraize, or others with deep cosmere knowledge and personal knowledge of Shallan herself told Ialai to make these references in this order.  Then it would be a message from that character to Shallan. 

I don't think there are other examples of Sanderson using that kind of symbolism meant only for readers, but if you know of some I would be interested to hear.

Call it symbolism, foreshadowing, easter eggs or anything else - it's the very essence of his style. Sometimes it is more tied in-world, sometimes it's just like this, a character saying something prophetic while they themselves have no idea. This would be the biggest one of this particular kind yet but the idea itself has always been there.

Some quick examples from Mistborn:

As for bigger things, Wit's epilogue about nature of art is a direct wink-wink to the reader, much closer to breaking the 4th wall than this scene. Same with e.g. the interlude about the ardent reading romance stories which is a fan tease referring to Shalladin/Shadolin shipping wars.

All in all, you can definitely spot Brandon passing information "behind the back" of his characters.

Ialai doesn't know about Shallan's personas but Brandon does so nothing stops him from inserting another layer of meaning into this conversation.

What I'm seeing is (though can't take credit for spotting that):

- Veil's wine: "clear", the winemakers took "great care to remove the rinds" to reveal "what was truly inside."

- Shallan's wine: "bland and flavorless", "weak", "powerless", "a hint of something wrong", "perfect for people who want to maintain appearances before others", a good-looking package to an inferior wine, a creation to be eventually discarded

- Third wine (Radiant is left): "perfect", "wonderful" and unique

- Fourth wine (fitting the discussion on Shallan's fourth secret identity): "invisible", "deadly", meant for Shallan ("I believe this is yours") but one she doesn't want to touch

@agrabes @Karger that much is clear in the other parts of the conversation. I was more interested in the symbolism WRT which alter drinks which wine.

I'm curious what you guys think about the wine scene from the new chapter:

Quote

Ialai offered it to Veil first, who accepted the cup, and took a drink. (...)

“It’s sweet, fermented from a fruit, not a grain. It reminds me of visits to Gavilar’s wineries. I would guess it an Alethi vintage, rescued before the kingdom fell, made from simberries. The flesh of the fruit is clear, and they took great care to remove the rinds. Revealing what was truly inside.”

(...) Ialai smiled, then handed Shallan a small cup of the orange. She took it—and found it bland and flavorless.

“Well?” Ialai asked, sipping her own cup.

“It is weak,” Shallan said. “Powerless. Yet I taste a hint of something wrong. A touch of sourness. An… annoyance that should be exterminated from the vintage.”

“And yet,” Ialai said, “it looks so good. A proper orange, to be enjoyed by children—and those who act like them. Perfect for people who want to maintain appearances before others. Then the sourness. That’s what this vintage truly is, isn’t it? Awful, no matter how it may appear.”

“To what end?” Shallan asked. “What good does it do to package an inferior wine with such a fine label?”

“It might fool some, for a time,” Ialai said. “Allow the winemaker to gain quick and easy ground over his competition. But he’ll eventually be revealed as a fraud, and his creation will be discarded in favor of a truly strong or noble vintage.” (...)

“Ah, here,” Ialai said. “Perfect.” She held up a deep blue. This time she didn’t offer it to Shallan first, but took a sip. “A wonderful vintage, but the last of its kind. Every other bottle destroyed in a fire. After today, even this bit will be gone.”

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

Dramatic narrative is perfectly fine with it. We didn't see that year and it makes much more sense for them to reach a plateau offscreen where we can't see it and have this one last push for her final bit of development as the focus here.

With plateau, yes. With her having made progress  - not so much.

On 12.08.2020 at 9:59 PM, Calderis said:

He told her to be in control. And she seems to be well on her way to that. 

I've finally found the quote. The thing is, it's not what Wit told her. It's what she hears when touching Ashertmarn, imagining maybe it could be Wit's voice... but it's all so twisted, accompanied by lines that are clearly Odium-influenced too:

Quote

Give it all to me, the voices whispered in Shallan’s mind. Give me your passion, your hunger, your longing, your loss. Surrender it. You are what you feel. [...]

She became a new person with every heartbeat. The voices seemed thrilled by this. They assaulted her, growing to a frenzy. Shallan was a thousand people in a moment. But which one was her?

All of them. A new voice. Wit’s?

"Wit!” she screamed, surrounded by snapping eels in a dark place. “Wit! Please.”

You’re all of them, Shallan. Why must you be only one emotion? One set of sensations? One role? One life?

“They rule me, Wit. Veil and Radiant and all the others. They’re consuming me.”

Then be ruled as a king is ruled by his subjects. Make Shallan so strong, the others must bow.

On 12.08.2020 at 9:59 PM, Calderis said:

I don't take that literally at all. 

I could take it figuratively if not for the "without you, I'm fading" in OB. Two instances is starting to be too much for a coincidence.

On 12.08.2020 at 9:59 PM, Calderis said:

Ialai needs to be dealt with, one way or another. Lightweavers are spies. I think she's behaving perfectly in line with her role. Shrugs

She does. Another way. Life before death, journey before destination and so on. Elhokar also needed to be dealt with because he was a bad king at the worst possible times coming and yet a terrible answer to it was to even to sit and wait for others to do the dirty job, not to mention finishing him personally. Knights Radiant clearly aren't supposed to take the easy way out. Dalinar has shown it again in you cannot have my pain and even though Shallan doesn't swear oaths, the first one applies to her as much as to anyone.

There's a world of difference between a spy and an assassin.

On 12.08.2020 at 9:59 PM, Calderis said:

I strongly doubt at this point that his path forward With Shallan is going to be to tell that beta reader "you must change to be healthy." 

Oh yes, it will be hard. But why making her integrate must mean: "you must do it too"? Why can't it mean: "you could do it too if you want" or "that was her journey, you can have another" or any other thing in the world?

23 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I do think we're supposed to see Shallan (and Veil and Radiant) as having made progress in between OB and RoW. Now, narrative structure should hold that where she starts at the beginning of the book is not where she'll end up, so I think she may be about to start spiraling again in RoW, but I don't believe we're supposed to be going with the idea that she's gotten worse over the year.

She spiraled down in OB and now she's supposed to have gotten much better off-screen only to spiral down again? This makes no sense dramaturgically. This is one long spiral and she's just in a "local optimum" and now she'll need to reach the very bottom to get out of it and be able to progress further.

Besides, her arc and Kaladin's are strongly paralleled, here and there throughout the series and also now in this RoW beginning, with their chapters so intertwined without any plot-related connection. They are both still struggling with the same issues that they did at the end of OB and earlier and I'm pretty sure we'll see them both hit the rock bottom somewhere in the middle of this book and rise back to swear their next oaths near the end. I think we're seeing here a beautiful contrast-parallel when Kaladin is clearly even worse from the start and Shallan is for now seems-okeish-but-something's-off only to show next she's after all in a very similarly dark point. Well, we'll find out soon enough.

23 hours ago, Greywatch said:

There's still something Shallan has to remember, and the three personas are currently stable and functional and comfortable. So, we can assume in the book, Shallan will remember what she's being prompted to remember, and the stability between the three will be threatened.

There are tensions there that will need to be addressed sooner or later. I think, if Shallan/Veil/Radiant remain a mix until the very end, it'll be like Veil in WoR - consciously applied masks over one core personality.

Maybe Szeth starts his arc in prison because he guards/interrogates Moash there?