Ailvara

Ok, guys, the summary is more or less done!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit?usp=sharing 

I'll leave it in "everybody can edit" mode for now in case I overlooked something important or you have a quote to add! I'll probably later change it to "anybody can comment" so that we don't get attacked by any trolls.

It needs some polishing, but like I said, it's not an essay, but a note. Also, I kind of concentrated on the topics that I felt were more in line with the main topic, overlooking mostly the discussion f.ex. on Shallan becoming a mother or deep analysis of Adolin's character. If you disagree with this approach, please feel free to add or rephrase anything.

I think that @DimChatz summary would work well as the introduction, for example, but I won't go as far with copying other people's posts, unless you want to include it  Anyway, this is wholly a group work, I only summarize because I'm a notes freak.

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yeah, that would be a great question, but I'd guess, that it would be RAFO'd.

If it's RAFO'd that's the answer  

@DimChatz I've been thinking on making a summary for a while, but for some reason, I didn't feel like diving again into all our issues and feelings regarding this particular resolution... Now that's done you inspired me to make a summary of our theories, observations regarding foreshadowings etc  I'm not much an essay person, it'll be in the form of notes. It's already 9 pages, I aimed for much shorter, but with the quotes... I'll post it in a few hours I think.

12 minutes ago, stonedshaman said:

I gave steeldancer one of my uovotes for ya Ailvara

Thanks! I'd give you one, but, you know...

I like it (but ran out of upvotes - I should put it in my signature...)! Resonates perfectly both with "I am Law" and her identity issues. I also hope, that her current arc is not all about embracing her 4th Truth, but also about progressing to the 5th one, so that would cover it.

I just saw this on my fb feed and laughed. They even accidentally got the hair right. 

I think my first one like this was Harry Potter It seemed to take so much time, and now it's been so much time since it's over... I grew up with Harry Potter, but with Stormlight Archive I'll grow old. 

It's funny now that I think of it. It might be the most certain thing I know about my such distant future. 

57 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

I know! I thought the exact same thing as in two of the back 5 flashback characters will claim they are Heralds. I do not think he means the flashback characters though just that there will be two characters that will "claim" they are Heralds. I am totally on board we will get new Heralds. 

I'm now not sure if I understood the quote correctly. I assumed, that he was talking about four different characters, but maybe he just corrected himself, speaking about only Ash and Taln after all.

STILL, next five books being "all about heralds" when we have two POVs from them?? I don't buy it. I hope/think, that the POVs from current books will stay with us, even without flashbacks (do we maybe have any WoB on that?), and making them those near-divinities who come and help when needed is quite perfect. Aand I don't see Brandon missing on this opportunity since he likes turning his characters into gods so much So, the most plausible scenario is I think:

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

What about Azure?! They have the soldier bond and stuff  

Actually, it has been discussed in another topic at some point. Good ship, I think my favourite one after Shalladin  And she has some neatly different abilities. But I don't see it happening, just my gut feeling.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Deval said:

Well, when looking at the whole idea that people are attracted to people like their parents we need to analyse Hesina ( I wouldn't say Lirin because Kal was definitely closer to Hesina). Hesina was the only person in Hearthstone who could read and often read to him from textbooks. This along with just the general vibe I get from her makes me think of the divine attributes learned and giving (Truthwatcher) and Wise and Caring ( Elsecaller). Huh, those are the legitimately the orders that I fit best that's odd. But yeah, I can definitely see Kal with a truthwatcher or an elsecaller (or a renarin)

I was also going to write about how many Hesina-like qualities would be perfect for Kaladin! Smart and educated, supportive, caring, challenging, patient, open-minded... Nothing too exciting, but solid.

In the topic of Rysn, I just found this quote looking for something else entirely, and I think it can be relevant:

Quote

If you do read the book, one of the things I do to try to keep this all from going out of control is I write what are called "Interludes." Most of these (all but the ones about a character named Szeth) are essentially short stories in the world, about characters you don't have to remember or learn. They add depth, expand the plot, but are set off as their own thing with a specific sort of "This won't be on the final" sort of feel.

 

So does it mean, that she'll never be a prominent character? I think this is only about WoK, otherwise he would have to exclude Lift as well, but still, I think Rysn is set to remain an interlude character.

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

Yep Brandon said the back 5 are pretty much all about the Heralds. I think he said something like some are Heralds and some think they are Heralds. 

Edit here is the WoB I was thinking about. 

These are Lift, Taln, Shalash, Renarin and Jasnah as far as I remember? So two of these are definitely Heralds... Though may also not be ones anymore by the end of book 5, but still identifying as such (which seems more plausible than two of the other three suddenly going delusional). 

Is that a huge spoiler he gave us there, or am I reading too much to it? I've been pro new Heralds theory anyway, but... Wow. 

He stated somewhere, that he'll start writing somewhere between autumn 2018/spring 2019 and it'll take two years from there. 

It really freaks me out, that we won't even get a chapter for so long... 

Hah, so many topics on Kaladin's love life. If he was supposed to stay forever alone, what would we be even talking about?  

Seeing the beginning of this topic, I expected more of a discussion on what his romantic interest should be like, not who exactly would that be (we've discussed everyone I think), so I'll try to get back to that. 

Quite a lot of people would like to see him with a fighter girl. I agree she needs to be badass, but I'd really hate to see someone military oriented and, well, simply too similar to him - especially another windrunner (dating your captain, nah, so-so). It'd be so much more interesting to see a character with completely different powers that save the day when his are not applicable, so that they could complement each other. 

Also, I don't think Kaladin would be attracted to a killer, even if he accepts himself as one. Apart from his apparent thing for Lightweavers, I would see him maybe with an Elsecaller or Edgedancer type.

And I hope for a lighteyes. He's not conveniently escaping his prejudices, not on my watch. 

11 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Heh, that link confused me even more. It seems to be arguing both sides of my proposition. I tend to believe that the infatuation described in that article is usually the first stage in the development of the interpersonal love. I don't know that I would ever call infatuation delusional though, it's developmental. Infatuation facilitates the development of interpersonal love, and so can be seen as a stage in the larger development.

Of course, you also have circumstances that differ from that, so it clearly isn't a necessary stage.

I'm not a psychologist, I have just studied some of it. I just thought it an interesting contrast of definitions.

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I suppose that I (and the link) simply meant love as only the final stage of what you call love. Infatuation can be the first stage of something more, but it's not like I will instantly tell a guy that I have a crush on that I love him, even if eventually I will, so that's how I differentiate it instinctively.

10 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I, myself, am a bit sceptical about the feelings as described in the book are really love. Regarding both Kaladin and Adolin.

Exactly, that's why it amused me that Bradon expressed himself in a way that suggested he sees even more to Shalladin than we do (and to Shadolin as well, but let's ignore that).

17 minutes ago, aemetha said:

 Where do you draw a line between infatuation and love? In my social psychology classes, infatuation is described more as a stage of passionate love, rather than a different state to passionate love.

 

I meant infatuation as a shallow and mostly physical desire that will go away on its own in contrast to love as a much deeper affection related to actually caring about the other person. I'm no psychologist, I guess this sums it up better than I could: https://www.diffen.com/difference/Infatuation_vs_Love

18 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

ETA: Beat me to it @ailvara!  Also, in re-reading this, I'm now slightly worried that given how Very Bad avoiding truths is for Shallan and we see this visible "stuffing in back of brain" of Shallan's feelings for Kaladin, that this will be her fifth truth.  Please no, just please no.  We already have Shallan relying too much on a man for one big decision, so I don't think I can take it again.

 

Haha, uninspiringly short posts are at least quick  I wouldn't mind it at all - Kaladin being the subject of her last Truth doesn't mean, that her speaking it would be in any way his contribution. It's still up to Shallan to work this out and he might not even know until after the fact. It's not like she relied on her parents speaking the first two Truths either.

40 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

That said. I think WOB makes it clear he feels done with the triangle and is happy with it.

 

He is happy with what he's written (so far), but I don't see anything here about it being done with for the future books...

...especially since he actually stated, that part of Shallan is in love with Kaladin and not just confused/shallowly infatuated - which is more than I would say being a die-hard Shalladin shipper  

1 hour ago, gawwyt said:

I agree with you on what the 4th ideal is likely to be about. How ever i disagree that were going to see Kaladin swear it in the 4th book without massive external help getting over his hangups. The sort of help that might've been provided by a caring and understanding partner but alas we are in the broodiest time-line.

As I said earlier I think this particular dysfunction of Kals will actually make him a worse radiant, but a better herald. Especially if you consider that by not giving in to the torture of the voidbringers* he will effectively be protecting everyone, humans and parshmen alike. And by suffering eternally no less! A perfect situation for Kaladin powered-by-my-own-suffering Stormblessed.

Grab your tinfoil hats.

Now the assumption was made that if Kaladin is becoming a herald then we would be getting multiple new heralds (and that laughably Shallan would be one of them). I dont think were getting multiple new heralds I think the existing heralds are going to die and were going to get one new herald and one champion-with-nine-shadows. If this is the broodiest time line-then they may both be Kaladin, but I doubt it.

Hell I could be wrong Kaladins new baby brother and family may be what he needs to heal during that year of time-skip while he sails around on his sky-ship with bridge 4 singing sky-shanties. Sanderson has definitely shown that he likes making Kaladin happy right?

*using this to refer to the things that torture the heralds not humans.

Edit: Almost forgot to ask, Why do you think Shallan is likely to become a herald? Other than MC status.

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Kaladin has had his share of struggling with the 4th Ideal in OB and I don't see Brandon stretching it further than book 4. A caring partner would be cool, but he has Syl, bridge 4, his family, and his own strength, so he'll be alright and be an awesome Radiant.

I don't get why you assume he would be the only new Herald. The old ones are mostly not good for anything anymore and I don't see Kaladin becoming Taln 2.0 - there are a few other characters that are well suited for the job and won't dodge the responsibility if it comes to that. It would serve neither the story nor character development to treat Kaladin as a special snowflake in this case. If someone gets send to Damnation for those 15 years, my bet is on the whole Dalinar's Ten in Thaylen. Shallan is an obvious candidate for the Ash LW replacement - the only one, in fact.

@GameOfGroans, @LinkasZelda always happy to welcome new crewmates. "Sailing before landing". 

51 minutes ago, LinkasZelda said:

It would tear my insides up, though, for Shallan to marry Adolin and then cheat with Kaladin later on. But yet I kind of want to see it happen? DRAMA ya know?

I know. I probably would have reluctantly settled on this if that was the only option other than "it's over, trolled you guys". But now that I have some hope there's more to come, I'd rather see it go on properly. Stupid hope.

2 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

I have a strong impression that Brandon Sanderson changed his mind about the ending of the series - or maybe the ending for Kaladin? - somewhere between the two books or even in the middle of Oathbringer, and that's why he devised such a sharp, poorly explained U-turn in the romance plot. Otherwise, I really see no point for him to dedicate so much time and energy into building such a deep, smouldering sense of connection between Kaladin and Shallan in book 2, in the first place, and then suddenly drop it for no reason.

 

If he did change his mind in the middle, he had plenty of time to withdraw all Shalladin from OB and be done with it - it's not like it would hurt the plot in any way. So either we misunderstood him from the start or he's not done. I obviously hope for the second option.

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

But he's darkeyed and darkhaired and doesn't smile, so obviously he's bad   They are probably both too good to be cast as a "forbidden" romantic interest, really, even though Kaladin was definitely forbidden for racist reasons before he was revealed as a Radiant.  Shallan herself basically says that neither are mysterious enough for her (or rather that she doesn't want to know Adolin's secret because that relationship needed some measure of mystery and she flat out told Kaladin he was no longer mysterious due to bad puns, which seriously having an annoying sense of humor can kill an attraction faster than anything else IRL too.)  So maybe we'll get a legit bad boy into the freshen up the mix - hot young Nale-esque Skybreaker?  Flies and follows Odium.  Double whammy.

Shallan really likes her mysteries, doesn't she? Even when there's no need for one. How healthy, especially in her case.

I may not like our Skybreakers, but I'm not sure if I wish any of them to get into such pile of femme fatale Shallan crem... Why do I wish this upon Kaladin then? Stupid emotions.  

1 minute ago, gawwyt said:

Unfortunately I think Shallan/Adolin is endgame (if not executed perfectly). I believe that Kaladin will remain single until he dies. Ending up in a relationship would give him someone to protect over everyone else and I'm pretty sure Kaladin's need to protect everyone is going to turn out to be a very important plot point. At least when he takes Jezrien's place as a herald.

Actually, the 4th Ideal is (most probably) about how he cannot protect everyone, so I don't think we'll go there. Anyway, if that was the case, I think Brandon would have already killed off Kaladin's family instead of additionally giving him a baby brother to worry about.

And if we'll have new heralds at the end of book 5, Shallan is likely to be one as well, and Adolin is not, which actually fits with my theory on all this.

I'm really looking forward to learning more about Willshapers. Their strive for novelty and adventure resonates with me perfectly, even in the absence of more details about the order. Although, since they are supposed to be quite individualistic and varied, I suppose it's not too hard to fit into them. 

9 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I like this twist a lot too!  But, if this was the twist, it should have been executed in a better manner.  I think if we had the same exact same overt storyline (nice boy vs. bad boy to put it much too simply), but had all of those little literary elements pointing towards Adolin, I would 100% be behind it.  I don't like not being able to trust in an author's foreshadowing/symbolism/metaphors (whatever you want to call it - I feel like I can't ever figure out how to state that), which is where I will be left if Adolin is the end game.  But perhaps part of Brandon's subversion is that he doesn't want me to trust him on those aspects 

Ooo, this. I have real trouble comprehending the amount of misdirection given here. What bothers me even more is that the subversion interpretation puts Kaladin in shoes of a bad boy, which is so unfair. If I had to pick a "bad one" out of this triangle, it would be Shallan... 

Also, I'm worried that sinking Shalladin would end up with setting up some pretty random last-minute love interest for Kaladin, something like Spook's storyline in HoA; the only alternative is leaving him alone (and I'm with Syl on this one). He's one of the main characters, he deserves more than being a tool in Shallan's arc. 

"I'll make a man out of you" for Kaladin getting bridge 4 in shape! 

Someone should record these. I mean to try, but maybe someone more talented will

My idea on how the ships will be reconciled:

One of the key arguments against Shalladin is that they are too broken for each other. While this is true, what are the chances, that this will remain the case until the end of the story? And what will remain to stand in the way of this relationship once they figure out their issues? Except for Adolin - but if he's not going dark, I can't help but see him as a natural choice to kill off, as it would both be heartbreaking and not impede the story. I've said it before and I'll repeat again: somebody has to die before this is all over, and there are few more likely candidates than Adolin. 

Another thing is, that the triangle got loads of space with a relatively debatable resolution - compare it to Wax and Marasi, or Vin and Zane, the reasoning was clearer, quicker and more definite. Just the existence of this topic is a proof, that it wasn't cut clearly enough, and we've seen, that Brandon is capable of doing that when he wants to. 

Brandon also said, that he wanted to show how Shallan could love two men. This is almost a deal-breaker for me. Shallan doesn't love Kaladin in OB. So, what I think this leads us to, is that it's something we are yet to see, and she will love them both, but not necessarily at the same time.

Putting it all together, what I think is happening here, is that the person Shallan is now is rightly paired with Adolin and will remain so for a time. We can argue if they'll destroy each other, or help each other grow, but both cases would probably be good for the story. And the person that Shallan may, and will eventually become, would be well matched with a similarly progressed Kaladin later in the story. Once they are both more capable of sustaining a relationship and once the literary potential between her and Adolin burns out, I think we'll see a story of a woman who was in two meaningful relationships in her life, each of them being what she needed at a particular stage of her development. 

Just give cents from me. If we assume, that Shallan is relatively herself at the end of OB, she seems well paired with Adolin. But if we assume, that 2/3 of her are not completely on board with all this, it's only Shallan persona who is happy and it doesn't look very well for post-reintegration future. So I don't know, if that's the key deal-breaker here, is anyone here who doesn't fall into these lines of thinking? 

10 hours ago, maxal said:

I understand the desire to refuse to believe this may be it, but I do think this is reality, hence I am saying we are walking on the line in between the author's intends and readers expectations. Adolin could be so much more into this story, but what we have seen is likely what we'll get within future books unless Brandon makes a 180 and takes a very firm commitment to write more of Adolin. I have however waited 4 years for him to do so: he didn't. His intends are different and since this is his story, well there is nothing I can do about it but wish he had changed his mind.

Valid point. However, we have three years of waiting ahead of us, so we might as well live the story the way we want during this time and strategically crush our expectations a few months before SA4.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

I couldn't disagree more with your statement on Adolin being a sociopath: sociopathy requires one to have no moral conscience and a lack of social responsibility. Yes, Adolin doesn't feel remorse over killing Sadeas, but this does not make him a sociopath: Dalinar doesn't feel remorse over the soldiers he killed during his blood rage either. Adolin shows social conscience on various other instances such as when he saves the boy, when he cares for other human beings, worst when Adolin killed Sadeas, he did it for Dalinar.

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9 hours ago, maxal said:

On Adolin psych 101, he will NOT tolerate any harm be it physical or psychological or theoretical done to his mighty glorious father no matter what it may be. As soon as Dalinar's safety, well-being, grandness and how others are viewing Dalinar are concerned, Adolin will do ANYTHING to prevent it from being stained. This is exactly the unhealthy relationship I wanted OB to focus some on by having Adolin being the focus on it and not Dalinar. 

 

I wouldn't say he is a sociopath either. On the contrary, he does what many people would do given the same circumstances. However, I have a question for you. The way Moash wants justice for his grandparents and to free Alethkar of a bad king - how different is it really from what Adolin does to Sadeas? On the level of outcomes, these are both valid choices (at least at first - until you consider all the mess with Amaram, Sadeas troops and the Thrill) - they just stand in opposition to the "journey before destination" moral implications. In the reality of SA - end of the world, hard decisions and all that jazz - being a good person is not always about not being a complete baddie. Sometimes it is about being exceptionally strong in unfair situations, that would make an evil person from an average, or even above-average one (even paladin-Kaladin is so close to falling down this path after all). So, if Adolin turns evil, I wouldn't see it as a manifestation of his overwhelming internal darkness, but a consequence of facing too many challenges and moral confusion, that wouldn't end well for many normal, good people.

As for the second part, I really hope, that this relationship is going to backfire. Dalinar hasn't had enough problems yet, has he? While Adolin feels no guilt partly because of his loyalty, I can completely see him starting to question it after he learns of Dalinar and Evi. And then, to question himself and the murder as a natural consequence. Usually, I would expect to see the seeds of conflicts for the next book more clearly at the end of the preceding one. However, Brandon seems to make the books more contained - I'm talking especially about Mistborn1-Mitsborn2 and Shallan's fracturing being nonexistent in WoR, though influenced by it. 

6 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Brandon gave a comment that Shallan's wit is partially based on Jane Austen characters.  In hindsight I can definitely see that, barring the traumatic past her personality type is very much like a Jane Austen protagonist.  The ideal matches in Jane Austen novels were partners, people who intellectually challenged you and were strongly driven by an internal moral code that complemented your own.  Adolin is kind, supportive and and an all around wonderful human being, but he's no Mr. Darcy.  There was this other very Mr. Darcy-like character who was brooding, witty, verbally fenced with Shallan for long strings of fast-paced dialogue, and was utterly driven by his internal moral code of right and wrong, but that's not who Shallan chose in the end.  The question now becomes was Brandon just subverting expectations by having his Jane Austen protagonist chose the unexpected suitor, or will Shallan and Adolin's puppy love relationship get a harsh dose of reality in the near future?

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Adolin is SO Mr Bingley (Wickham has some hints as well, but that would be unfair).

We need a Jane. The Darcy part breaks my heart.

52 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

@SLNC Again you have eloquently described in detail everything I think and feel about the ASK thing. The bits from the chasm scenes you have quoted also bring me to tears every storming time and I base the whole validity of the Shalladin ship upon those scenes. For me, nothing else Sanderson has ever written was so romantically intense and infused with meaningful existential connection. I refuse to accept it is not intentional.

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So that makes at least three of us. I'm currently having trouble recalling reading anything more romantically intense.

6 hours ago, maxal said:

My undying love for Adolin hasn't really done me much good: I am still stuck trying to make up story arcs for his character, within my head, to compensate for the ones we didn't get. And I am not really good at that.

 

Aaand, that makes at least two of us (my focus isn't Adolin, but I'm always happy to find validation for my daydreaming).

6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

That was storming awesome.  If only we got that Shallan!  This is the Re-Sephir fighting Shallan!

Thank you, I'm so glad you liked it!!!

I had way too much time in the evening, so I wrote my supershort take on How It Should Have Ended. Feel free to mock my grammar or anything, this is therapeutical and purposefully Shalladin-less. http://archiveofourown.org/works/12935616

2 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

If it's an immitation of something that happened in the past, I assume he refers to the Gavilar Navani Dalinar triangle, then why weren't things explored a bit more in-depth? Was that supposed to be all ? I'm literally talking to myself now, but I get annoyed because I just achieved a moment of peace and then I read all of these and want to scream "WHERE IS THIS IS OB BRANDON, WHERE?" 

 

There is a fantastic case made earlier in this thread, that this reflects Navani/Dalinar/Evi.

Also, the "I will eventually answer that" gives me hope, that he didn't mean "next book kind of soon".

1 minute ago, Dreamstorm said:

Maybe reviving Maya will unleash the whitespine within him and actually be the catalyst for him going bad...  At least that would add some interest to the Maya revival storyline besides "yay, go Adolin!" and the realmatics behind it.  Love the "sign of the nine" callback, too.  There was a lot of discussion on that with the prerelease chapters, but it was dismissed as coincidental.  

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Another possibility is, that it will be about as significant for his storyline as Cryptics watching Elhokar... Which is not that much.

Unfortunately, I didn't discuss the pre-release chapters here, but on Tor's webpage, it was also spotted and mostly left. However, in the new context of Adolin dodging responsibility where we know, what a bad idea this is... What chances are there, that Adolin just drops this bomb in a moment, where he could easily say anything else about himself, where we can easily dismiss it in the light and comedic context, and, of all signs available on Roshar, he is associated with one of the two that are quite so significant (the other being 10 for Honor)?

8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Oof. Any ideas what this could mean? Other than the nine Unmade?

Nine is a number associated with Odium. There was even a WoB on that.

EDIT: Oh, there, I've found it! https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I have a theory that each one of the Shards is related to a certain number. Preservation really likes 16, Honor likes 10, and Odium likes 9. Am I onto something?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.