Ailvara

If this happens, I believe they'll need to replace most of the Heralds, not only Jezrien. Let's be real, alive or not, they're not up to this job anymore. It ties to the WoB that the back 5 is supposed to be focused on the Heralds instead of Radiants. I can't imagine we'll swap the whole cast, especially with Renarin, Jasnah, and Lift as flashback characters.

Also, I think it'd be only a temporary measure to survive the years between the series halves. So nobody will consider this an ideal solution, but it'll be the only patch they'll have at hand after some massive defeat in book 5. And then in the back five, they'll come up with something more permanent.

20 hours ago, jamesbondsmith said:

Anyone else annoyed that Shallan did the exact thing that has the Spren so concerned about humans (without even the caveat of having done it as a partnership), and... suffers no consequences whatsoever? The cryptics sent her another one after it all!

I know she was a kid who didn't know what she was doing, but Adolin and the other humans were centuries removed from the Recreance and they were still vilified as if they personally had done it. I don't think it's a proper rebuttal.

I agree with the others that she shouldn't be held responsible. But there should be strong narrative consequences to the fact that the very person who delivered a strong argument to the Honorspren case was present there for the trial and a vital part of the envoy sent to alleviate the situation. It was such a suspenseful accident waiting to happen (especially if you figured out the secret early enough) and then... Nothing. If it was anyone else than Shallan who killed Testament, it would make no difference to the trial, and that's just a disappointing red herring.

I think all of El, Moash, Nale, make sense but would be quite underwhelming and uninteresting. I still wish for Adolin (drama!), but after RoW he seems to be set up for a different arc (BAM release). However, Rodium nearly turned Dalinar, then nearly Kaladin of all people, each in less than one book. So who knows. It'd be actually super cool to see how Todium is a much more masterful and convincing sneaky bastard.

I think it's safe to say, if Brandon would plan anything between Kaladin and Laral, he had every opportunity to at least re-establish some form of friendship between them in this book. Between that and "it's a girl I would never marry, no matter what", I'm not sure how much more he could sink this ship, aside from maybe killing any of the characters.

2 hours ago, Pandora's shard said:

To me, Adolin is the most stable character of the stormlight archive.. the most balanced emotionally, good from inside, smart enough to understand when others need help, and when he should hold back, good at whatever he does, and that is why, he will never have had a proper Spren bond, because, he does not have holes in him to be filled by nahel bond. 

He is, in short, the embodiment of how a "good" person should be in real life. 

And that is why, a lot of people hate is character because, he is so balanced and helping, he is never that interesting. Hell, I have seen threads where, some of them say, his arc is about helping others.. hell no guys that is what a good person does. He/she is always there for anyone who needs them. And, isn't that what Adolin always does? 

And I think, the next part of his character arc is going to be about dealing with drawbacks of being a perfectly good person and how others take that for granted and don't care how much emotional support a perfectly balanced and good person need too. Specially, in his relationship with Dalinar. 

So, from the perspective of a non-fan, I don't mind he's not interesting. Supporting characters exist for a reason. I do have issues, however, with the way he is presented as "the best of them all" because it's not just the fandom, I totally see why you would think that.

One is: it tends to ignore the somewhat machiavellian touch to his character. He's good, but he's definitely more towards chaotic good than 100% paladin. And we can agree to disagree here, but I'm with Dalinar on this one. Especially when other characters go above and beyond to avoid killing, and prove that it's possible to win anyway. His moral code would absolutely work in, say, GOT, but in SA there are too many examples that it's possible to do better.

Second: to show him as the best undermines the journeys of the other characters. To help a friend, Adolin simply needs to notice they need help and talk to them. And that's lovely. But compare that to Shallan, who shows people their best selves and gives them a smile despite being so shattered on the inside. Or to Kaladin, who gets Bridge Four members out of the darkest place, while battling his own demons, not to mention the whole slavery thing. Even Dalinar, he wasn't born or raised good, he had to go through hell to earn hard whatever moral "level" he is on. These accomplishments are so much more precious because of how hard it was and yet they did it anyway. Veil explained that beautifully.

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"Who is a better swimmer?" Veil whispered. "It's the sailor who has swum his entire life, even if he encounters rough seas that challenge him. Who is the stronger man? It is the man who must pull himself by his arms. And that swordsman with one arm... He was probably the best in raw skill. He couldn't win because of his disadvantages, but he wasn't weaker than the others."

This WoB is so straightforward it makes me chuckle. He basically told us years (?) ago!

It sounds reasonable that Kelsier took over the Ghostbloods from someone else. I don't think, however, that they are unaware of the change - the Lord of Scars seems to be very much his own title, not inherited from anyone.

9 minutes ago, Eingradd said:

I was thinking it might be more literal, that Kaladin and one of his parents (probably Hesina, if I had to guess) are descendants of Tanavast. We know that Tanavast and Cultivation's Vessel were lovers, so they could have born a child. I don't know if we know what happens if two vessels bearing a shard mate, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the child either bearing no investiture or a mixture of both shards, and said line growing weaker over the generations.

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Considering Lift was also one of the two people left awake when Urithiru was taken, and her reason for remaining awake was speculated to be due to her drawing upon Lifelight, Cultivation's light, this might also explain why Kaladin was left awake, if feeling extremely weakened; he has ties not only to Honor with his Nahel Bond, but also from Cultivation as an ancestor. I also suspect that the reason she was able to awaken Teft by using Regrowth was because she was using Lifelight, not Stormlight..

I haven't really put a lot of thought into this though, this is just my initial thinking. I also recall people speaking of Kaladin before he bonded with Syl as though he was an incredible warrior, though the battle at the opening of Way of Kings where he participated in Amaram's army was likely when Syl was already watching him.

There've been WOBs for both. Lirin and Hesina are Kaladin's biological parents. The second one, IIRC it implied that his abilities are augmented due the Connection to Syl through Spiritual Realm which of transcends time.

6 hours ago, Blood Of My Fathers said:

Honestly, I just want to see Wit/Hoid jump into an arena and take on Odium in a battle of Wits. That would be amazing.

After that epilogue... It's a scary idea.

On 24.11.2020 at 1:29 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

Something that annoys me a little bit about the direction of Kaladin's SA arc is that while he began showing both attributes (protecting and leading) it has eventually become solely protecting. Which is why in RoW he had to pigeon hole himself into surgeon although the idea didn't thrill him. It can be argued creating mental healthcare is leading in ideas and leading society towards enlightenment, but I'm not sure I see that as truly leading or simply protecting. He did fund the Windrunners, and that was leading, but he has now left that behind. 

Kaladin can inspire people, noble, common, scholars, soldiers etc just by walking by, yet that aspect of him has barely been used since WoR. It makes little sense to me that the Fifth Ideal would be reached without embracing both the major and minor attribute, and yet BS hasn't to my eyes developed Kaladin enough in the leadership direction. All that Kaladin has led by so far was in my opinion from charisma and innate personality, but not learning to lead, much like he has spent 4 books learning to protect.

So much this. There were some elements of it in RoW, but he was more of an icon, like some Superman, than a leader. Bridge Four has moved on and left a void behind, making it almost seem like his best time for leadership is, for now, behind him. And by "for now" I mean, "for a while". Both that quest to Shinovar and the little time left don't leave much room for his further development in this area. We can only assume his arc won't done in book 5, I guess? But then, with Jezrien dead and Kaladin going to Ishar who implied he could restore the Oathpact, the implications seem obvious - maybe too obvious, but if that's where it's going, I think he's not nearly ready for that.

Wow, this was a rollercoaster.

Many things that I expected to like, I didn't, and all those that I didn't expect to like, I did. Maybe the expectations are the key. Either way, epic.

Group A:

I loved the gloomy atmosphere of the occupied fortress. And I loved how tightly-knit this arc was. Switching viewpoints was so smooth, with a lot of interactions between all POVs. I thought the Singers would be boring and take away the focus from the established characters (especially after the early reviews), but they turned out to be an absolute highlight. Venli was fantastic, Brandon really didn't shy away from any unlikable characteristics, and yet I found myself cheering for her. Raboniel moved me more than some of Kaladin's key scenes. Navani's chapters were at times a bit too info-dumpy, but the tension made them work.

I have mixed feelings about Kaladin. There was so much hype about his arc, that maybe I simply expected more. Wonderful that he's taking the first steps to introduce psychiatry to Roshar. It was super cool to see him inspire the people of Urithiru and be awesome (maybe a bit too overdone, but I don't mind much). His fights with the Pursuer were quite repetitive, though, and he showed little initiative, mostly following Navani's or Sibling's plans. The most emotional and heartbreaking moments for me were those in Part 1. In the climax, I was largely indifferent, it seemed obvious how it would end. As much as Teft's death was a shock, I didn't fully buy Kaladin going all suicidal after that. That scene in Kholinar, when whole groups of people he led for a while started killing each other, was way more dramatic. The Tien vision was sweet but heavy-handed, the way he pretty much gave Kaladin the ready-made answer kinda violated "show don't tell" to me.

Most of all, I feel like his character arc currently lacks direction a bit. They need a fighter to defend the Sibling - done. They need a healer to go to Ishar - yes, please. He's pulled in so many directions, he goes in circles. The most amazing thing he's ever done was not fighting, not being a surgeon, but turning Bridge Four into what it has become. I don't currently see any setup for him to progress along those lines further. The trip to Ishar will certainly be fascinating, but it feels disconnected. It's telling how impossible it is to tell what his 5th Ideal would be, what's his next challenge as a character. I'm sure there's a plan, but I'm a bit worried.

Group B:

A relatively slow read, disconnected from all other arcs. I enjoyed it more when I finally decided to read it separately. Still, most of Part 2 was unnecessary. I enjoyed Adolin's interactions with Kaladin and Dalinar a lot, but the moment they started to travel, and travel through Shadesmar... Boring. Especially the whole hunt for the spy was anticlimactic. When Pattern said it was him, I was waiting for some twist, at least to see that his intentions were different... But that was it. A lot of setup for not much. On the other hand, Part 4 was rushed in some places. Shallan integrating Veil happened a bit out of nowhere, I expected a stronger "trigger" and more incremental setup there, and Formless was much ado about nothing too. Maya speaking on the trial was the most predictable development possible, but the content made sense, and I like that she spoke for herself. The Honorspren were so ridiculously focused on the law that they should have been Highspren. Looks like, next thing, they'll release BAM and all the deadeyes will all be revived. Which may be too predictable to actually happen, or not.

Group C:

That was the smallest arc? Huh. In addition to Dalinar and Jasnah - Renarin, Szeth, Taravangian, Wit... Big party, big revelations. Also tied to Group A which made part 3 all the more interconnected and enjoyable. Jasnah felt a little odd at times, the whole duel scene came a bit out of nowhere and it seemed only put there for the sake of maybe some foreshadowing of the deal with Odium? Renarin is the best, even when there's so little of him (maybe especially then - I'm actually not looking forward to him becoming much less mysterious). Let me just say, I didn't expect Rayse to die just yet - and the way this whole secret looms over our protagonists, that epilogue... Makes me shiver. I really love how the stakes continue to grow, a war with a god for the fate of the world wasn't enough, we have the whole universe involved in so many ways. Now I really don't know what would be next.

I think it's a pretty safe bet, that if we've got 2 possible scenarios given on a silver plate, then we're getting any but these two.  Especially that there's already talk about the loopholes.

It ties nicely to what Wit was saying about winning vs not losing (can't remember the exact situation/wording). It looks like we may have some sort of a tie, though it's hard to imagine how this could play out. Maybe neither of the Champions dying, hence "to the death" would be the loophole?

On 11.11.2020 at 0:54 AM, Ailvara said:

Adolin will either snap again and do something reckless that will put him on a path of no return, or he'll decide the human side isn't really the "right" side, especially after the ongoing conflict with his father (and possibly under the influence of e.g. Taravangian). He'll end up being Odium's champion.

I had one more theory that adds to that today. 

If Maya revival happens, I expect that she won't exactly be chill about humanity. We've seen so many spren hate on humans because of what Recreance did to their kin, what will do one that actually lived through it herself? I believe Maya won't be ready to give humanity another chance and won't necessarily want to fight on the side of our protagonists. And Adolin will follow her.

I also expect the mission sent to the Honorspren to fail one way or another, and this is an interesting way this may happen, to have Maya contribute to them not trusting humans, tipping the scales.

Maybe one and a half of these are fully mine, some I've discussed with friends, others have been around for a while but I stand by them. Anyway, if I were to put my money on anything, it would be these:

1. Kaladin is going to save the day during the attack on Urithiru and unwittingly claim a bigger leadership role without Dalinar or Jasnah around. Lirin will then finally see the bigger picture as well and help him come to terms with that. Kaladin will eventually play a vital role in bringing the humans and (some of) the singers together in the fight against Odium. The moment of him swearing the 4th oath will be parallel to Shallan's moment of revelation, similarly to how their low moments were interwoven in the first chapters.
2. Venli thinks she's going to kidnap a Radiant, but in fact, she is going to be stuck in Urithiru after the assault, get to know everyone better, and eventually help with figuring out how to avoid genocide or enslavement of either side.
3. Shallan is going to realize she's been a persona since she split in childhood. Her last truth will require facing something terrible Helaran did to her and it will encompass her whole self, and her admitting to truly being each and all of her four alters. After reintegration, she and Adolin will need to face that only 1/4 of her (or less - as "Shallan" is mostly made up of coping mechanisms) is, in the eyes of both of them, truly married to and/or in love with Adolin. Between that and her involvement with the Ghostbloods it's not going to progress well. [Extensive reasoning for this and the next point as usual here; yep, I also still believe Shalladin will be the endgame, but possibly in back five]
4. Adolin will either snap again and do something reckless that will put him on a path of no return, or he'll decide the human side isn't really the "right" side, especially after the ongoing conflict with his father (and possibly under the influence of e.g. Taravangian). He'll end up being Odium's champion.
5. Dalinar will face Adolin in the final showdown and will have a chance to kill him, but won't be emotionally capable of doing so. As a result, the protagonists are going to suffer a crippling defeat in the finale of book 5. Up to and including destroying Roshar Ashyn-style in an attempt to keep Odium confined. [The ground for this theory are some of the death rattles + mirroring characteristic to SA].
6. We're going to get our main characters as the 10 new Heralds, but the Oathpact won't be recreated in the same form (or even any form - they'll just guide humanity through the back five).
7. As a surprise to no one, Gavilar is alive and Navani will bond Sibling.

4 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Why do I feel like people are rooting for Adolin to die. 

Any development involving Adolin... OH NOES, AduhLIN is going to DIEE!!!111!!!11  It may happen.  But nothing that was just released makes it any more likely than before.  Are these Shalladin shippers that refuse to admit defeat?

I am looking forward to the embassy storyline.  I am looking forward to Adolin and Shallan's relationship being explored further.  Those were some of my favorite chapters in Oathbringer.  

Adolin dying doesn't change anything WRT Shalladin. It'd make it a second choice anyway. If you need to have it in military language, a "victory" would be to show they don't work well together, not have Adolin die heroically and Shallan mourn over her perfect husband.

So no, the reason people think Adolin will die is that he still has no character development, no interesting places where his arc is set up to go (Maya revival is super predictable at this point + it'd remove Adolin's last unique characteristic in that he's a "normal" guy). The point is, nothing that was just released has challenged that, so it looks like this state of things is intentional.

I think it's natural such rumors would exist given how much time they likely spend together. Add to it that we as readers have a perfectly good explanation of what they're really doing (talking about Serious Things) and it's an obvious wink to the readers through a less informed narrator. Same as Adolin and Shallan wondering what Nalthis and Scadrial are without ever getting even close.

Forget Jasnah/Wit. Given her abolition of slavery there is one entirely different character that I want to see her interact with ASAP.

Two last times when I tried to predict whose chapter we're going to get, we had Venli where I expected Shallan and Kaladin where I expected Venli. Now I think we'll get either Venli or Shallan, so it'll probably be Kaladin.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Shallan's is better then she was in OB or WoR.  She no longer ignores Veil or Radiant and is becoming a bit more comfortable with herself and getting closer to the truth.

This only means that she got better at the end of, or soon enough after OB, not that she is currently getting better. She fell into a "local optimum" that is now starting to show its shortcomings.

15 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I think Shallan as three personalities forever can work, actually, though I'm probably in the minority here. What is at issue is not the personalities per se, but the underlying trauma she needs to address and take responsibility for her lies/truths. She hasn't done that yet, which threatens her growth as a Radiant on the one hand, and her mental stability on the other. If she's not lying anymore, and she's able to function with the "three" then I don't see it as an issue. If she's no longer functional and dissociating more? That's a problem. 

The personas are a direct result of her inability to deal with trauma. I agree that she has to deal with her past first and foremost, and not concentrate on the alters. I just think that reintegration will naturally follow because there will be nothing left that the alters would need to protect her from.

One issue I see is that the personas are essentially lies. Shallan, of all people, can't pretend to herself that she is someone else. It'll hinder her progress as Lightweaver.

39 minutes ago, Karger said:

Shallan is still figuring some stuff out.  I do think she is getting better.

What makes you think so? Shallan herself thinks she's stagnating - and even this sounds as legit as when she says she's fine... Adolin and Pattern would probably have the most informed opinion at the moment, and even they (at least Adolin) probably don't know all of it (Formless):

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“She’s fine,” Kaladin said. “She’s found a balance. You’ve heard her explain how she thinks she’s fine now.”

“Like how you tell everyone you’re fine?” Adolin met his eyes. “This isn’t right, how she is. It hurts her. Over this last year I’ve seen her struggling, and I’ve seen hints that she’s sliding—if more slowly now—toward worse depths. She needs help, the kind I don’t know if I can give her.”

Their table hummed. “You are right,” Pattern said. “She hides it, but things are still wrong.”

2 hours ago, Fallohidden said:

One thing I felt really strongly while reading, and maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I’m feeling Veil is approaching the fine line of become toxic for Shallan and also Adolin. In past books I kinda put up with Veil because she helped with all of Shallan’s sleuthing and espionage but the more she lingers around, the more I have this weird feeling in the pit of my stomach. Brandon writes her in a fun way, but then there’s little hints - like how Veil can hold more alcohol than Shallan (even though it’s the same body, brain, weight, biology as Shallan, just with an illusion over her) so that gives Shallan an excuse to put more alcohol in her body. It’s Veil’s choice to drink but it’s Shallan’s body she’s dumping it into. Adolin senses she’s not dealing with condition well either and that she’s escalating to something. I feel an underlying discomfort from Adolin about it despite how wonderfully understanding he is. 

Does anyone else cringe at the Veil persona?

First of all, let's not forget this is Veil's body as much as Shallan's. Whatever any of the personas does, this is all Shallan. It's been beaten to death how DID works already so I'm not going to repeat it.

But, yes, absolutely, Veil is toxic. Shallan is toxic too, in different ways, she's the one crippled by fear, the one who's holding them back from facing the Truths or looking for help. Looks like currently Radiant is the only one left with a good head on her shoulders, unless we just haven't seen enough of her. This toxicity is one of the key reasons why I believe the balance between the alters can't be the endgame for Shallan. She just doesn't make it work as well as she thinks she does.

8 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

The Syl interlude shows Kaladin working as a surgeon for a while.

Does it? AFAIK all we've got is this, which doesn't tell definitely if he is a surgeon or just could be:

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She slipped back outside, though the responsible brain managed to keep her attention. Kaladin. She needed to help Kaladin. Perhaps he would be satisfied as a surgeon, and it would be good for him to not have to kill anymore. However, there was a reason he’d had difficulties as a surgeon in the past. He would continue to have the dark brain. This wasn’t a solution. She needed a solution.

I don't mean to dismiss the whole theory, he might still go back to being a surgeon for a while. But I'm legitimately curious where do people keep getting this information from.

I would really like to see them interact more and Renarin definitely has some abilities to help Kaladin.

48 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Is there anything that says the minor Group 1 character's POV will definitely only be in an interlude?  Last I'd seen, it was that they would have only one or possibly even no POVs and they may appear only in an interlude.  There could easily be an update I missed though.  I think it's going to be hard to pin down that minor Group 1 character until we actually read the book because there do tend to be characters who randomly get one or two POVs throughout the books but do not appear in the outlines that Sanderson sends out.

Same old WoB:

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The first group is the largest, and the most involved, with five viewpoints characters. Two of these, however, will have only a few viewpoints (and one might just appear in other viewpoints, save for an interlude.)

It's a slightly unfortunate phrasing that could be understood as "there will be one viewpoint (interlude) where this character won't appear" but it of course doesn't make sense so it needs to mean "there is one viewpoint (interlude) where they don't just appear (only have a POV)".

Well, there may be a potentially infinite number of 1-POV characters but there's a limit on which characters are counted in (nine). If there is another character which fits this description for Group 1 minor/interlude-only character as well as Szeth does (which there currently isn't anyway), then we've got a problem. Although there is no one else left that would be one of "main" characters for the first 5 so given such doubts Szeth would still be the first in line.

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why would Lirin be more important for Kaladin than Hesina?

Who said he would? If what you're really asking about is why I considered Lirin and not Hesina for the groups it's because it's POV groups and he's got a POV.

The first question @Chiberty has already answered, thanks.

12 hours ago, agrabes said:

Dalinar telling Szeth to go to prison means the same thing as saying Dalinar imprisoned Szeth.

Not the same because it doesn't say anything about whether Szeth is there as prisoner or not.

12 hours ago, agrabes said:

I don't think Dalinar can be Group 1.  We've been told he has a smaller role in this book and he has no POVs in a part of the story marked as Group 1/Group 2.  At this point, Dalinar is pretty much locked to Group 3.  I think that Dalinar will be focused on something that is important, but different from what the main group is doing.  He has to think Big Picture now and can't be involved with individual missions.  So he's likely keeping track of the main mission and will come along to help when needed like he does for the Hearthstone evacuation, but his primary goal is something else.  I do think Lirin is the most likely candidate for the 5th person in Group 1 though.

I double checked the WoB and it turns out I remembered it wrong. There is one character in Group 1 who has just one chapter but it is an interlude, so looks like Szeth after all. Which means one of the others has to go but also that I'm not so convinced Lirin is there anymore (I assumed he was the character with one POV but in this scenario he gets a slot where he needs to have a few). Dalinar taking the back seat doesn't mean he's not Group 1 because two characters there are supposed to be much less prominent and also at least one doesn't have a POV in Part 1.

I'm not sure which one I'm more inclined towards ATM. The argument for Lirin is that he's already had a chapter in the right part, but it can still turn out to be just that like WoK first chapter. If it's him it means Dalinar replaces Renarin in Group 3 (the only character we haven't been told if he has POVs or not) and it doesn't look quite right that Renarin is not counted in but Lirin is. It's also more difficult to think about a storyline that could include Dalinar and Jasnah that would be distinctly separate from characters in Group 1.

So with correction:

Group 1: Kaladin, Navani, Venli, Szeth, Lirin/Dalinar

Group 2: Shallan, Adolin

Group 3: Jasnah, Dalinar/Renarin