kalamitous_emoashions

Here is my two cents:

Keepers of Winds Tethered 

The story will dig into Shinovar with Szeth's quest there, and we are going to find out a lot about their history and lore. We know they have certain historical knowledge that the rest of Roshar doesn't. 

I think this has a lot to do with the oath pact, the origin of surgebinders, and perhaps the history of the human migration from Ashyn. 

In light of this - they are the keepers of winds tethered - tethered by oaths and by Honor. Focus on wind's tethered due to Jezrien being the leader and the windrunner. They are also the keepers of this knowledge. 

Let me know what you all think!

I think I might have thrown this out personally before - but I have always liked Knights of Winds Tethered. 

The book could be about the creation of the nahel bond, and the rules being applied to surges. 

I am coming back to my own topic to add in something else I noticed, probably because I made this topic. 

Rock has also consciously heard and attuned to a rhythm of Roshar. We should probably note the fact that Horneaters have some parshendi blood in them, so it might be easier for them to attune to the rhythms. But there is a specific quote that starts the passage, that given the only other time that we have seen a human character attune a rhythm is Dalinar during war, makes me suspicious that something else is going on - and that it is important. Here is the quote below, abridged for the important bits: 

Quote

Page 383, Oathbringer: 

'Cooking was like warfare...Lunamor fought to prove himself time and again. He waged war with breads and soups, sating appetites and satisfying stomachs. As he worked, hands deep within the dough, he could hear his mothers humming. Her careful instructions. Kaladin was wrong; Lunamor hadn't become a cook. He'd always been one...he closed his eyes, needing and humming his mother's song to a beat he could almost, barely, just faintly hear.

I think there are a couple of interesting things here. Both of these characters have managed to attune to a rhythm when they are engaged in activities that they spiritually see as their true calling in life - Warfare and cooking. The start of the quote also directly makes a comparison between the two activities as well. 

I thought the first instance of Dalinar was an interesting footnote. But given this second evidence of Rock - even accounting for his horneater blood, there is something more going on in regards to humans attuning to either a rhythm, or different rhythms, when doing something they perceive as their spiritual calling. 

Please help me figure out the implications of this - and what might be going on. A lot of you are far smarter than me. 

Is it okay for me to say this both excites and scares me. If this timeline is correct, I will be gone 65 by the time I read the last Cosmere book. I will have started reading them when I was 18. My entire adult life will have been spent following the Cosmere - from the minute I left school to probably when I retire. I think I am going to have to start taking better care of my health to make sure I make it to the end.

Hi All, 

Doing a re-read of Oathbringer and came across a curious quote, which I had a look for but I don't think has been brought up before. I know there are many theories about the Unmade, and I think this might give us another bit of info that can be worked in to theories. 

In a Dalinar look-back chapter Brandon seems to make it very obvious that when under the influence of Nergaoul, and amidst completely loosing himself within battle against Kalanor's forces, he attuned to one of the rhythms of Roshar. Someone might know more than me, but as far as I am aware, I can't re-call any human in the books attuning to a rhythm, and acknowledging it, if even in an unknowing/unconscious way. 

We have comments from Rlain about how Rock and others in Bridge Four seem to almost hear a rhythm a times - but this is seemingly unconscious on their part, and nearly nearly not the same as a viewpoint character directly referencing it. 

Here is the quote: 

Quote

Page 265 to 266: (all italics are already italicised in the text). 

the Thrill giving him purpose...He was not a man. He was judgement...Enthralled, he cut down foe after foe, sensing a strange rhythm to the fighting, as if the blows of his sword needed to fall to the dictates of some unseen beat. A redness grew at the edges of his vision, eventually covering the landscape like a veil. It seemed to shift and move like the coils of an eel, trembling to the beats of his sword. 

I think there are a few things we can assume from this: 

1. Like I said, Dalinar has heard and attuned to a rhythm of Roshar

2. Giving he is directly under Nergaoul's influence, we can probably assume that this ability to attune to a rhythm has a link to Nergaoul's characteristics, abilities, and identity.  

This gives us a potentially interesting tidbit about Nergaoul, and maybe the rest of the unmade, firstly it perhaps indicates a direct Connection (and I use this in a big C way purposefully) between them and Roshar. 

Secondly, they are able to connect humans with Roshar while under their influence.

As mentioned above, I am not sure exactly how useful or insightful this is - cleverer people than me might be able to see some relevance to this within the theories. But I hadn't seen this mentioned before, so thought I would point it out. 

Have at it people! Let me know what you think. 

@Shard of Reading - If I was going to get a Mistborn tattoo I would probably do something slightly more abstract - for instance, I have been thinking about having the metal symbols styalised into the shape of a spear. So that the symbols, each on their own, make up the shape of the spear itself. I think that would look great on the inside of the arm or up the centre of the back. 

@Thaidakar the Ghostblood 

While the symbol is excellent, I will probably want to wait and find out exactly what the Ghostbloods motives and actions are in the cosmere before I get it permanently inked on me. Worst case scenario it might be kind of hard to explain why I have the symbol of a genocidal organisation led by a murderous rogue who have committed untold atrocities across multiple planets. 

'I like the symbol' doesn't quite cut the mustard for an explanation  

Thanks all! Good to be here and plan to get a bit more active. 

Now for the real question though - what Cosmere based tattoo should I get next? Any recommendations? 

Hi All, 

I had a quick look but couldn't see a post on this topic so wanted to make one. Since my re-read of the Mistborn books, including Secret History, I started getting a sneaky suspicion that the Hero of Ages prophecy doesn't necessarily solely have to apply to Sazed - I then recently came across a post where someone had laid out all the Hero of Ages prophecy quotes and I think this is worth a discussion. 

We all know that Brandon loves pulling a fast one on us, hiding hints very early for much later pay-off. My theory essentially suggests that multiple people can fulfil the Hero of Ages prophecy - and that the next person to do so will be Kelsier in Era 3 or 4. Now I don't know whether this will mean he will take up the shards, as that isn't necessarily a pre-requisite of being the Hero of Ages as per the quotes, but that he is in someway destined to save the world. 

I have laid out the quotes below, and left some comments underneath some of them. As you can see, since the release of Secret History, there are a lot of these prophecies that match Kelsier very nicely. 

The Hero of Ages shall be not a man, but a force. No nation may claim him, no woman shall keep him, and no king may slay him. He shall belong to none, not even himself. 

                Force - Kelsier took up the power of preservation, he is also now a cognitive shadow as so 'not a man'. No nation may claim him - he is claimed by both the southern scadrials and the Basin as survivor and ruler. No king may slay him - Rashek tried, but ultimately failed to kill him.   

He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it. 

                The Discord one is a big hint for me. As we have confirmed through a WoB that if Kelsier was to have taken up the shards he would have been Discord and not Harmony. Given the WoB this points nicely to Kelsier fitting the prophecy. 

That which has been sundered must again begin to find its whole 

                 His body has been sundered, and his current search is leading him to find 'his whole' - perhaps his original bones. 

The Hero will have the power to save the world. But he will also have the power to destroy it. 

The Hero will bear the future of the world on his arms. 

                  Since the bands of mourning we know Kelsier has the ability to create fullborn bands, worn on his arms. I know it was a spear head in the book, but that could have been re-forged from what was original worn bracers. We can also define future of the world perhaps in a technological sense - Kelsier's involvement with the southern scadrials is advancing the future of the world, and it was from the technological and realmatic theory brought to them by him. 

The Hero of Ages was not simply to be a warrior. He was a person who united others, who brought them together. A leader. 

                  This can obviously apply to Kelsier, and probably far more credibly that it does with Sazed. 

The Hero of Ages was removed from the Terris people. He was not royalty himself, but came to it eventually. 

                 Kelsier is removed from the Terris people in a more direct way that Sazed, and he came to royalty (in a sense) by being the leader/mythological figure of the southern scadrians. 

He commanded the forces of the world. Kings rode to his aid. 

                  Kelsier held preservations powers - and we can say that Elend did ride to his aid. Also - this part of the prophecy might not be fulfilled yet. As a leader in the Ghostbloods he has a second way of commanding the forces of the world. 

He left ruin in his wake, but it was forgotten. He created kingdoms, and then destroyed them as he made the world anew. 

                 So with this one - when he held preservation there is an argument to be made that he 'left ruin in his wake', this was also forgotten as no-one knew about it given he was battling ruin in the cognitive realm. Also, he left ruin in his wake, as not only would ruin follow him with his presence everywhere he went, but also he ultimately survived while Ati perished, and because of what Kelsier did, Ruin the shard was left in his wake for Sazed to pick up. He also created Elend's kingdom through his actions in The Final Empire, but this Kingdom was destroyed when Sazed made the world anew - but if we look at the wording 'he made the world anew', there is an argument that without his actions none of this would have happened - he was directly responsible by giving up power of preservation. There is also the potential that parts of the prophecy that apply to Kelsier haven't come to pass yet! 

...One who is separated from the Terris people, a king of men, a rebel caught between two worlds. 

                This one is a very nice one - 'A rebel caught between two worlds' - this applies so perfectly to Kelsier being caught between the physical and cognitive realms, brought up in general comfort with Marsh in nobility society, but also half skaa and spending time as an adult in their underworld. 

He who is not of his people, yet fulfills all of their wishes. 

                This one can apply nicely to the Southern Scadrians - not of them, but fulfills their wishes of survival. We also don't know enough about them yet to get a good read on what their other wishes might be, but perhaps we might see that Kelsier's actions fulfilled some other aspects of this as well. 

Let me know what you all think of this - I can't help but think that many of these prophecies can be linked with Kelsier too nicely given what we know since Secret History and Mistborn Era 2. 

As always, rip it to pieces. 

@mathiau ah that is such an interesting WoB. Great find.

Right - until proven wrong in the books, I am all aboard the head canon that Whimsy has something to do with Trell. I need to find a way to ask Brandon something like: 

'Was Trell, or a version of him, at one point in the history of Cosmere ever connected with Whimsy'. 

Ah perfect - thanks for the useful WoB's @mdross81. Okay - I think we might be getting somewhere with this. If we lay out what we know: 

1. The Nelazan worshipped a God named Trell in era 1 - with their religion described as whimsical, and their focus suggesting they are cosmere aware. 

2. By era 1.5 Bleeder has a spike of Trellium metal, which is described as: 'a silvery metal with a red cast to it, and dark red spots similar to rust'. 

3. We know that in the cosmere the colour red has the implication of corrupted investiture. As far as I am aware, every other metal we know of has a singular colour, so the red rust spots on the metal are inherently suspicious and suggests that something has happened to the original metal. My thinking would be that a god metal has been corrupted by another shard. From the stormlight archives we know that in people their eyes turn red when corrupted, not their entire body or being, so red 'rust' spots on a metal would be a similar process on a metal. It doesn't turn completely red, but parts of it do. 

4. We know that the metal spike in Bleeder, which is probably a corrupted investiture metal, comes from one of the 9 Shards we knew of at the time, before the Shard dump in Rhythm of War. 

Also - looking at past topics I found this: 'Also, if you compare pre- and post-Catacendre Trell, they are not the same gods. The new one just took on the name, probably' - I found this comment by a user name @Oversleep from a couple of years ago, and would be interested to know why he said this. As this would play nicely into the theory.

5. So if Oversleep is right, and this god Trell has changed, then this change doesn't necessarily have to be a different god taking on the name, but instead an avatar/splinter/sliver that has been corrupted by a different Shard. 

So to conclude, drawing together what we know, it suggests that Trell existed as a god pre era 1, perhaps linked to the shard Whimsy, but was then corrupted and taken by a different shard who is operating in era 1.5. 

I would love to see a WoB that suggests that 'Trell' as a god is uncorrupted, and has always been the same Shard. But given the red rust spots and red cast to the metal, I am leaning towards believing that the Trell we know isn't the same as Era 1. Which opens up an interesting possibility of one of the Shards going around corrupting other shards avatars/splinters/slivers - which seems a rather Autonomy thing to do to me. 

As always - rip this to pieces everyone!

Aha - nice work Quantus - I knew there would be a WoB somewhere to take apart the theory.

Just to tie off the loose ends with this theory, with the wording of the WoB question, we are sure that the metal in Bleeder definitively comes from Trell?

Alternatively, might Brandon be pulling a fast one on us? We know that red means corrupted investiture. Could Trell have previously been connected to Whimsy, but was corrupted by Autonomy/One of the other shards we know to create the metal. It has been a while since I read Mistborn 1.5 - but could we be looking at Whimsy still being relevant but corrupted? 

Knowing Brandon I am still inherently suspicious of his use of the word whimsical.

Hey all - I was doing a re-read of Mistborn 1 and came across a passage that I found particularly interesting given Brandon's specific choice of word.

I am not sure if this has been brought up before, I couldn't find any note of it in the tags despite the many different topics and discussions of Trell. So wanted to bring the communities attention to this. I am unsure whether this is a purely co-incidental word choice by Brandon, but as we know of our favourite author, very little of what he writes is accidental, which makes me think given our knowledge of new shards, perhaps the truth has been staring us in the face since the first time we heard about Trell. 

Here is the passage: 

'It listed the tenets of the Nelazan people, who had worshipped the god Trell. Sazed had always been partial to this religion because of it's focus on learning and the study of mathematics and the heavens...True, the Nelazan had known a great deal about astronomy, but their teachings of the afterlife were sketchy - almost whimsical. Their doctrine was purposefully vague, they'd taught, allowing all men to discover truth for themselves...What good was a religion without answers? Why believe in something if the response to half it's questions was "Ask Trell, and he will answer?"'. Page 410, Chapter 46 - Hero of Ages. 

A few points on this: 

1. The specific choice of the word whimsical to describe the religion of Trell now takes on a potentially insightful new meaning given that Whimsy is now a confirmed Shard. 

2. Brandon specifically notes that the Nelazan had known a great deal about maths and astronomy - if I was to chose two words that would indicate to me that a group of people were Cosmere aware, without being obvious, those two words would be high on my list. They had a religion with it's focus as the study of science and the universe - which sounds very much like a basis understanding of how the Cosmere works. 

3. The core worship structure of not having answers to questions, but just a believe that Trell will answer - as opposed to religions that already lay out all the answers upfront in a creed, suggests that they are confident that their god exists, lives, and importantly 'can answer'. While at the same time coming into line with the core concept of Whimsy - 'a sudden wish or idea that cannot be reasonable explained'. They didn't need answers, as they didn't know what all the questions were. They just had faith that their God would answer. 

4. Given Trell's involvement in Mistborn 1.5, we can safely say that the Nelazan were onto something with their religion - that it had a grounding in truth. 

If we draw this all together, then Brandon's use of the word whimsical, in conjunction with describing the Nelazan as seemingly cosmere aware, and the concepts of their faith matching into what could be considered Whimsy. We might have a good argument to state that Trell is of Whimsy. 

Also - wouldn't it be fun for Trell to be connected to a Shard we know very little about as a way to introduce potentially a new major player into the cosmere game. A trickster Shard inserting himself in small religions across the Cosmere under the noses of other Shards, not bound tightly to one planetary system but working through avatars everywhere. 

Would love it if anyone gets the chance to ask Brandon if his choice of word in Hero of Ages was important. 

Also - as always, would love for the community to rip this to pieces and show me some tasty WoB's that disprove me that Trell is linked to Whimsy. 

Stay positive and negative!

Oh cool - that was one of my questions (about Seon's looking different in the Cog Realm) at the Oathbringer signing years ago - I have to say I definitely didn't expect to see one popping up in RoW so soon! 

This actually raises an interesting question - what exactly is the function and purpose of gems. How do they work? 

Any WOB's on it? 

I like a lot of this theory. We really don't know the extent of a Bondsmiths power now - as seen with the Ishar scene. 

If Ishar could simply 'take' Dalinar's spiritual connection with the Stormfather. What is the say that Mishram couldn't do something sort of the opposite and completely 'fuse' her spiritual connection with a spren 'Ado'. What that Spren is of, could be investiture, could be connection. 

To work out what this Spren was I think it's important to look at the change in Spren and creation of deadeyes after the recreance. What is it they lost? Was it their connection to Roshar as a whole? Was it their access to investiture? Is it a combination of both? 

Let's also talk about the name: Deadeyes. We have seen time and again that eyes are a window into investiture, especially when corrupted. The fact they have no eyes must be significant. Potentially that they have no access to investiture. Perhaps more nuanced than that - as Spren are beings of investiture - so with no access at all they probably wouldn't exist. Perhaps they lost their connection to Roshar's or specifically one of the shards investitures. 

I'll write my rambings into a coherent new topic eventually - but tell me what you think!

I like Keeper of... 

Keepers of Worlds (Shin knowledge of the cosmere/being from off-world originally)

Keepers of Written Truths (shardic hark back to mistborn and shards not seeing stuff written on metal) 

Keeper of Winds Tethered (honor tethering/putting laws on surgebinding)

Knights of World's Torn (the destruction of ashyn)

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

Considering how adamant I am that the Fused aren't Voidbinding I'm sure that wasn't me. 

I do think that the unmade could be bonded to create more Bondsmiths and that is the reason that increasing the number of their order was seen as seditious. 

As far as any link between the u made and the varieties of Fused though, I currently don't see it. 

I completely agree with you. I think I have posted a theory before that the fused are surgebinding and don't voidbind, and that humans were the original voidbinders. 

I wasn't talking about the fused, simply a link between odium --> unmade --> voidbinding. I don't think the fused fit in there at all. I think they are something that came later. 

Quote

dvoraen

"To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Not always. But usually.

source

Interestingly a couple of days ago we also got this new WoB, that voidbinding 'usually' originates with the unmade. 

I think it is more likely to relate to being heralds of the 9 Voidbinding orders, which also plays into 10 Heralds, 10 KR orders. There is also a good WoB that states that Unmade could theoretically be bonded with. 

I think Calderis mentioned before that the fuzziness could come as each of the Unmade could potentially act more similar to the bondsmith spren, but attached the the 9 Voidbinding orders, that the unmade were at one point, and in some form or another the heralds of. 

I posted a theory like this this a while ago:

I agree with you to a point. But I think there is an additional step. I believe the unmade are the spren that were created from the memories, perceptions and self-images of Odium's heralds after they were unmade. 

Perhaps one of the many Era 1 Scadrial religions? 

hey. I asked a question like this to Brandon during the Oathbringer signing. Here is the answer he gave: 

seems to suggest that:

a ) someone has been on screen in Roshar using Hemalurgy. Someone correct me if wrong but this is most probably Felt? 

b ) what is going on with the dagger and gem stabbing Jezrien is connecting to the underlying principle of stealing something or part of a spirit web and being able to do something with this 'stolen' thing. Perhaps Brandon doesn't count it as Hemalurgy because it isn't linked to Ruin and Scadrial, but in world philosophers would consider it the same thing due to the underlying process and mechanics that are underneath it (stealing or taking part or whole of a spirit web and keeping it somewhere). 

@Wander89 I disagree. We have no idea what Hoid's overall motives are currently. He could simply be helping our heroes as their motives currently align with his. We have also seen him explain before that he will let the world burn to meet his ends. 

There is nothing simple about Hoid, nor is there anything simple about how Sanderson puts together his narratives. Personally I very much like the idea of Hoid being an antagonist in Mistborn Era 4 and with Dragonsteel acting as the origin story that explains his background motives and actions. 

If there is one thing we have seen is that characters in Sanderson's novels are never ultimately good or bad, much like is the case with a lot of modern fantasy (Abercrombie, Lawrence, et al) characters are driven by specific ideals, motives, belief systems and influences, and while they can often be characterised into good or bad camps, in world they would not perceive themselves this way. 

Thus I think it is far too early to understand the character arc of Hoid given our lack of context and information. But I do subscribe to the camp of 'Hoid as an antogonist'.

Exactly - it's not one to one as they were Heralds, and now they are the Spren created from humans and maybe singers memories/emotions/perceptions of them. If anything I think that WOB backs up the theory by showing that there is an almost one to one relationship between Heralds and unmade.