Darvys

Just in case someone feels like reading too much into the text today, there's this line when they're jumping from the honorspren ship : "She clung to Adolin, but Pattern’s hand was pulled from her grip." The kind of random scenes that are most often innocent but you still can't stop yourself from thinking maybe there's something there because of said randomness, or maybe it's just me, didn't find this mentioned after a quick search.

I wasn't aware of anything close to that, so thanks for the WoB. In the examples you listed the Thrill seems odd in this context, isn't it confirmed that the Unmade are splinters of Odium ? Why would their influence on a human or listener be a hack ? In those cases you have a blank canvas in which you inject one Shard's investiture, what is there to co-opt ?

Maybe "friends" was just Malata's way of refering to the species, that's how i read it at first since it fit her speech patterns (well from the little we saw), most spren are pissed to some extent at humans for the deaths of their ancestors, it just seems that some individuals are more vengeful than others, Spark doesn't have to have witnessed it. But if she truly is that old that potentialy gives Taravangian quite the information trove once the memories return. Curious to see if Spark is pulling a Syl in that she's going against the rest of her kind in jumping straight into Odium's lap, don't think the Radiants can afford to lose a whole other order to the ennemi.

The bit about drawing him and how it was said was actually what convinced me it was Veil, that was as close as Brandon could get to an "i want a piece of that". Real Shallan would have been more reserved than that i figure, but who knows.

I don't see anything in your post that would contradict voibinding/light being of Odium other than the colors not matching, which is a moot point since if as you assume Honor's color is blue then that wouldn't fit stormlight being always white ( don't know where you got the blue stormlight ? ). The only other argument you give is a massive leap in my view, you take the absence of red glow in Renarin's eyes to somehow mean that the Fused' use of voidbinding is a hack, when the much simpler explanation is that the red glow is due to the use of the voidlight to power whatever magic you're using, the glow comes from holding a specific investiture not using surges. Then there's the whole consuming gemhearts to get investiture bit, i don't know where that comes from, but i guess the theory needs a way to separate Odium from voidlight so whatever. We know there's likely more to the Everstorm than just a way to bypass Braize, it somehow healed the parshmen and allowed them to regain their minds. Venli got a gem from Gavilar ? i kinda rushed her chapters but i doubt i'd have missed that, my understanding is that Gavilar had two gems, one holding Yelignar that remained in Kholinar and was used by Aesudan, and the one he gave Szeth for safekeeping. But anyway, Sja-Anat could or could not be involved in the whole mess in the plains, remember that Taln had already fallen at that point so voidspren were loose and it made sense they'd flock to the only band of listeners capable of forming bonds let alone the fact that Odium planned the whole thing anyway so they'd go where he points. As for Renarin's spren, he could have been created anywhere then went looking for a viable host. For the Voidbinding chart, the interpretation seems rather random to me, but i'll leave that to people more versed in Brandon's magic systems.

The only thing that confuses me about Gavilar is how nonchalent he was when offering the sphere to Eshonai, it just made no sense from our perspective, there must be something we're missing which we'd likely get from his pov in a coming prologue. Before reading that i always assumed that he was smart enough to use the other fanatical morons in the organisation to carefuly plan and kickstart a containable crisis (the parshendi rampage with new forms of power) which he would use to forcefuly unite part of Roshar in preparation for the impending desolation. He had the visions so he knew it was coming regardless of what they did, this leads me to believe that the rest of the Sons (the ones the Diagram would be refering to) were unaware of the real gambit and the extent of his knowledge. Can't wait to know more about the guy, still have hope for him having had a ruthlessly effective plan before Szeth happened.

He also did grab two realms and slam them into another. Next book he'll have to get hold of the Cosmere somehow.

It could be, but to remain free Dalinar would need to commit troups and Radiants to protecting an isolated piece of land with no real value and too far from the Oathgates, i have trouble seeing that happening. I also don't think the Voidbringers would ignore a weak southern Alethkar to go push into the contested territories. The safe bet is that by the next book the country will have been fully occupied and the Alethi will be supporting Herdaz and pushing into the Sadeas lands, opening the way for our proto-Highprince to spearhead the liberation efforts (once the Windrunners work out their moral dilemma anyway).

Well the Voidbringers will want any available strip of farmable land and human slaves to work them, we know from OB that they conquered other cities on their way to Kholinar, would make sense if the parshmen coming from the warcamps in the plains and the southern princedoms did the same in the south, there's nothing to stop them. While small towns like Hearthstone weren't worth their time in the first push toward Kholinar, i expect they'll start expanding their occupation from the cities they hold now that there are no armies coming any time soon. I wonder if we'll see a massive exodus toward the warcamps or if the humans down south will also just submit to the new rule,

That part made me laugh actually, there we have Dalinar offering the soon to become second most powerful man on Roshar a strip of land with 6 villages on it ... I'm really waiting to see how the power dynamic in Urithiru will turn out when Kal grows into his new role as more and more squires attract their spren and earn their shards. That aside i doubt Dalinar's gift will be relevant anytime soon, that land is probably in Voidbringer territory by now, even if it's not i don't see Kal focusing on it just because Dalinar decided it belonged to him now, he has bigger concerns.

First ideal theory that didn't make me cringe, that took a while, have an upvote. I don't think it'll be enough though, it's commonly assumed that the ideal will have to deal with failure, Kaladin already entrusts others with the task of protecting people he cares for and is somewhat aware of his limitations, there has to be a part where he accepts that not everyone can be protected despite his and others' efforts so he can let go of his guilt, seems obvious but clearly not easy to accept. I still can't figure how it could be formulated without sounding underwhelming.

I would be very surprised and disappointed if Odium is as blind to Cultivation's intentions as some are implying here, it wasn't that hard for us to link the dots, and this theory isn't based on anything Odium is unaware of, that's why i like the idea of Renarin as the ultimate wild card so much, i would find it far more satisfying if both Shards tried to outsmart each other only to end up blindsided by the little human everyone overlooked (don't know how long that will last now that part of the secret is out though ...).

We have more than 60 pages of people criticizing Shallan's behavior, and you find it disgusting that Jasnah would do the same ? We know from Jasnah's pov that her objective is not to have Shallan fall in line but to make her strong enough to master her circumstances, which we know for a fact she's not quite capable of. The way i see it, with that specific line, she's not forcing her into the marriage, she's pointing out that she can't have it both ways, using the betrothal to have access to the Kholins and their ressources and then go about fantasizing about any passing soldier, which would end up hurting Adolin's reputation. There's another thing i wanted to comment on, back when you guys were discussing Adolin's perspective, someone brought up the scene in Celebrant where he decides to go with Kaladin instead of Shallan, this is either an oddity as it was described, or it's aligned with Adolin's toughtfulness as he had his betrothed go with the only person in their company who was armed. Don't know how serious that discussion was, but felt like posting my interpretation anyway.

Or maybe because you can't really talk when you're flying in front of a Highstorm and all we would get is a chapter of one of them fawning over the other in their head ? Can't get your fixation on this guys. If you want to be outraged over a missing scene why not the one where he took her to a mountainside off screen to ler her make her drawing of the tower ? She even had time to include a sketch of him ...

And yet his first action was stepping forward, in complete disbelief then he assessed and decided to pull back ( sure the scrambling part wasn't too dignified ). I have trouble seeing fear in that. I don't have the knowledge to begin guessing. Who can say what kind of implications a being like the Stormfather spending millenia shaping such a place in his mind could have, as for how it could relate to Adonalsium's possible survival, if anything its chances would dwindle, as according to the Stormfather for the smaller pieces to live the whole must first die. And if as someone theorized the Shard's intents are the remanents of Adonalsium's consciousness, well i don't see how both could exist simultaneously. To start speculating on what reassembling the Shards would spawn, we'd need to first understand what Adonalsium was, which i don't think we do.

Caution was the wiser course of action, i doubt Odium would have survived so long if he'd been reckless in his crusade. I'll have to settle for the first, as the second would compel me to hunt you down and put an end to your taunting existence, one Hoid is enough for both universes i believe

I didn't read fear in that passage, only disbelief and even anger. I recall reading somewhere ( book or WoB ? can't recall ) that Odium doesn't dare to invovlve himself too directly as it would leave him open to a strike from Cultivation, it's understandable that upon discovering that Honor's power was still a factor in the game, he'd want to pull away and rethink his position. @Hoidonalsium Not even Hoid knows the answer to that, and you're asking us ?

Isn't the reason Odium retreated explained in his meeting with T ? That if he ever finds himself in front of Dalinar again the latter could compel him to fulfill the challenge he agreed to ? Even Dalinar's comment about Odium looking small isn't very convincing in my opinion, he went from being unable to fathom the magnitude of the Shard's power to being connected to something as grand, of course his perspective would change, doesn't mean he's tapping something greater. Will need some more to buy into this theory.

@maxal Wanting Adolin to get more meaningful screen time is understandable but i don't think that's likely to happen now that we have at least four more radiants who need to share the spotlight, like you i would have gladly traded some Shallan povs in part 3 for more insight on Adolin. I wasn't really bothered by what we got, since i had no expectations related to the murder plotline, i think it was handled realisticaly. I also disagree with the idea that anyone could have murdered Sadeas to the same effect, the only way his death could ever have an impact was if it was at the hand of someone he's hurt and we care about, Dalinar would never do it, neither would Bridge 4 who had moved on, all that left was the Kholin with anger management issues. You say that Adolin was unaffected by the act, i'd counter that it cemented in his mind that he couldn't live up to his father's standards and expectations which in turn eased his acceptance of being the underdog from now on. Though i would point out that we still don't know how various characters will react to the reveal, it happened too late in the book, and with everything going on at the time it would have been weird to see people reacting to that of all things, if next book no one brings it up or there's no noticeable change in everyone's interactions with him, then i'll cede the point. The timeskip will make this difficult, so if there is a backlash i expect it to be subtle by then, which is fine by me. Note that i wasn't bothered by how late the reveal happened, it made sense for him to only blurt it out when he was backed in a corner, otherwise why risk upending his father's efforts at unification ? I said that Adolin's "development" in this book was enough for me, because other than more angst about the murder (which to be honest would have made me lose some respect for the guy) i didn't see much more potential than what we got. And if anything, OB showed that he still has room, as the story unfolds, to shine and grow.

@maxal Reading you is confusing, you seem to want for Adolin the same things you find so annoying in the main 3's arcs. We can already see from his early appearances that he had some trouble handling the immediate aftermath of the murder, being involved in the investigation would if anything show him how safe he was as there was nothing to link him to the murder; why ask for more navel gazing as you call it ? Their world IS ending. Sure, it wouldn't have hurt to add a pov or two to show all this, but all the clues we need are there. To be honest, i would have been bored if any more attention was given to the murder case, and i don't think it was ever presented as any kind of big deal, Sadeas was killed and Dalinar dealt with it in the only way he could, end of story. As far as Adolin's arc is concerned, i reserve my disappointement for the role he didn't play in the third part, Brandon only included him there to get him to Shadesmar. But i wouldn't say that he's got no character development, his arc was all about accepting his place in the new world that is emerging, it may be shallow compared to the main characters ( well it's huge if you consider Shallan .... ) but it's enough for me for the moment. I don't want to go too much off topic and into the other characters' arcs, i'll only say that what you wanted out of this book is pretty much what i got, i think your assessment is tainted by your disappointment in your favorite character's treatment, perhaps some time and a later reread will serve to enhance your opinion of the book.

It would make for some odd succession if the youngest inherits the title. What do you do, raise all you children to be chiefs in their first years, and each time a new one is born you shuffle the rest to other duties ? No, i think if Rock is now Chief it would more likely mean that : 1. The old chief was dumb enough to go on a suicide mission with his direct heirs in tow. 2. Rock's older brothers protested their cousin's murder with arms in hand and got the same. ( i assume it's cousin, i don't see Rock remaining silent after his brother's murder, no matter how much of a fool he was)

I could have cared for his arc if he had actually decided to side with the Listeners for whatever reason he chose, not just going with the flow like the moron he is. But well, reading his chapters made me rethink my best quote of all time, it's now this : "I'm no fool" - Moash, Words of Radiance.

Adolin the youth doesn't quite match the Adolin "i'm only good at swords" we've been seeing, but i guess that's what growing up in Alethkar as a soldier does to you. Still, i get annoyed when Brandon goes out of his way to portray him as slow of thought ( the reaction to Kaladin's joke, really ? ). Not easy to portray varying levels of intellect convincingly, i was glad when he skipped Jasnah's essay and just gave us the readers' reactions. As for Adolin not questioning his lack of Nahel bond, isn't it a thing for him to think of himself as a lesser man than everyone assumes ? If anything attracting a spren is what would throw him off balance. From what i saw in this forum, a lot of you guys want everything in a text you can quote, but some things are just better left unsaid. Then there's Sadeas, i've been over this a couple times already, but why would you guys expect him to agonize over his death ? The morality of murder ? He butchered hundreds of Parshendi during the war, the act of taking a life isn't what will give him pause, it's the justification of the act, in this case he realizes he did what needed to be done, all he needed was a little time after the fact to settle his nerves, that's what he got. What more do you need ? I'm still on the fence about squires though. Yes we saw the Skybreakers test a bunch of hopefuls, but we don't know how they selected those, we've come up with some theories that could really fit, but we'll have to wait to find out how it all works. As for Lyn, the argument of her becoming a squire because Kaladin chose her falls flat when you remember that the ligheyed captain Colot (k ?) also joined their ranks, Kaladin certainly didn't choose him, he even reflexivly suggested that lighteyes should be left out of the testing. Right now, i'll settle for squireship requiring you to have an understanding and willingness to uphold what the order in question stands for and that you indeed do have to be "broken". Yeah, some of you will disagree with the last bit, but it would make no sense for squireship to escape a cosmeric rule. i saw the theory that becoming a squire somehow molds your spiritweb to fit the investiture, but that's as baseless as theories can go, i'll wait to know more. And just keep in mind that just because Lyn and the rest don't look broken doesn't mean they aren't, Shallan is a prime example of what a cheery facade can hide (i'm not emplying they're hiding similar horror, i'm on the camp believing that our heros are on the extreme side).

Why would this be a joke thread ? Sadeas IS the savior of Roshar. Without him the Kholin boys would be lost somewhere in a farm. Without him the Blackthorn would still be stuck with that thin blooded Evi. Without him Gavilar would still be alive and therefore there would be no glorious Vengence Pact. Without him Kaladin would be cutting wood in some forgotten forest. Without him Dalinar would have moved to the Valley and become a monk. Without him the expedition to crush the parshendi would have succeeded, and many more generations of listeners would have gone devoid of minds. Even in death, his sacrifice allowed our paltry "heros" to expose the vile Unmade. Praise Sadeas, without whom Roshar would be no more.

For the troups, they way i understood it, is that Nergaoul overwhelmed them with the Thrill and in that state of mind they were somewhat forcibly fused with voidspren ( Kaladin notes a whole army of spren disappearing not just the huge unmade ). But there's something else, we know that to form a bond you'd have to be "broken", perhaps this is the missing piece. How would the spren know that a candidate can even form a bond, unless it was somehow visible from the cognitive realm ? So perhaps the Highspren are out looking for both the Radiants with "bright" souls and the broken humans either for recruitement purposes or to put them on a watch list. It fits.