mariapapadia

I dislike love triangles in general as well. Even in Sanderson's previous books like Mistborn 1& whatever that was in Mistborn 2, I wasn't much of a fan . Needless to say about other books. But what I find so compelling about this potential love triangle and why I am interested to see it, is because it's an equilateral one. Or it could be. Like perfect harmony. You don't offen see the posibility to go there in books. This is why it makes me think, whatever way it goes, it would fit. And that is a mature way to do it, if people don't come and try to make it rectangular, or whatever. Hope you get my math metaphor. Also I like these characters much more than others and I feel they are equally developed in regards to their personality. You can't say one of them is better than the other, they all have their redeeming and less redeeming qualities.

I know this isn't the best moment to make this argument as it will look like I am advocating for Adolin to find another girl, just to find resolution without Shallan. But please don't see it that way. Re-reading this part I just remembered a thought that I had when I re-read WoR for the first time. It might be a bit crazy, but I would like to hear your opinion on this. What about Eshonai ? I don't know if we have any WoB whether she's alive or dead, but I have a feeling she is alive. Anyway, I belive she's not dead and we'll see more of her in the future. I know a lot of work would have to be done for something like this to happen, but wouldn't you find the perspective of that interesing to read? "The good, exiled prince" and "the parshendi warrior that has been transform and it fight with an evil force that controls her" ? It alignes with the need for a more developed storyline when it comes to Adolin's romance. I never wanted to imply that we should get resolution for his love problem in a few paragraphs, but I am under the impressions that is his story arc will follow the exile, the becoming a Radiant or other posibilities like that we will see more of him and interacting with other characters. I don't know, it was just a though, that I hope it won't be read as "let's just find another girl that's not Shallan", but "what other special girls are in this universe that could have an interesting relation with Adolin" ?

Thank you for these ! I will pay some extra attention when I get to them. Right now, I'm still half way through WoK , since I joined the Shard the re-reading is going incredibly slow, as I am hyperaware of everything that moves in a scene

I actually expect this to happen. I will expect some conflict, but not a crazy love drama. I have complete faith that Brandon won't trash his characters in such a way and whatever the conclusion will be it will be written in a satisfying way

I would literally laugh so hard if that were to happen. Brandon would be the ultimate trolling master

Yes. As I said multiple times, Brandon isn't above using tropes. He stated that he isn't against tropes, but he would take them and spin them to show them in a new light. Tropes are tropes for a reason. If the author is great like Brandon, he can make out of the most boring trope, a great story.

Ok! Let's go at this again. First thank you for replying in such a structured way @maxal, it helped me clarify more in my head what I wanted to say. My last post wasn't as objective as I would've wanted to so I feel the need to clarify some things. I will partialy reply to your response and also talk about something else when it comes to the disscusions surrounding Adolin. First thing I want to say is that a while ago you told me in a response to something I commented that you've never opened a thread where you would disscus Adolin, but you only commented/defended him on others. I think that was a mistake ? Why ? Because it's clear you have an extended understanding of Adolin, which I agree with most of the time. Some of the points you made about him really put some things into perspective for me, when it comes to his character. I don't think is anyone on this forum who doesn't consider you the "Adolin expert". But what I feel it's a problem is that ,as you guys talked about yesterday, most of the new people don't know his full story, don't have this broad image of him, they would stumble onto a thread with a totally "innocent" topic, that would turn into an Adolin ode. Because every thread I encountered so far about characters or character's development ends in an Adolin characterization essay/ comparation and I feel like that puts a lot of people off. The thing is, most of the time the same arguments are made, there is only so much one can bring new to the table after so many disscusions. So I feel like, having a thread that would've gather all the analisys and the possible directions of his character, the stuggle the Adolin fans had to go through, would have help. It's easy to direct and introduce someone to a specific thread, instead of having people stumble upon different parts of those analisys and derail the main idea. My personal impression is that every time there is a debate, instead of disscusing the topic at hand, we go back to Adolin characterization 1.01. For me that affected the way I see his character, because sometimes I feel there is so much controversy and drama whenever he is brough up, that I just want to skip everything. And lately this is what I have been doing, but now when I am rereading the books or reading the new chapters it's like I hear everyone in my head screaming and contradicting and to be honest I get tired of it. I realise it's not my place to say to anyone where to post what and how to do it, but it was just a friendly input. As someone who is relatively new to the forum I would've like to have a thread like that. Of course everyone can skip the parts they don't want to read, but in the context of a bigger thread it becomes really messy. Anyway, I hope this doesn't come the wrong way, I still like Adolin, but I am a bit dissapointed that in a way I feel he can't surpise me anymore. It's like all the posibilities have been covered and I just have to wait and see which one will happen. The thing with a character like Adolin, that didn't have that much screen time compared with the others ,is that we don't know about all his inner turmoil. It's a bit left to the imagination and it's perfectly plausible for people to read him differently or get a different vibe from him. While a lot of the things said about his character could be written off as facts or truths, there is a lot left for speculation. There are situations where a POV from Adolin could have clarified some things. You asked me what would make me belive Adolin loves Shallan. A POV where I can understand more how he sees her, what he finds so special about her, what drives him to make it work with her out of all girls. I am not denying Shallan is special for him, I never denied that, but I have reservations that she is "the only one" because so far I haven't seen (maybe I forgot something) her through his eyes. I am not against Shadolin, as I said I think they had some genuinely nice moments together and I am sure they could work in the future. But before that I am expecting to see, and not be told, why is she the only girl Adolin can work with and not someone else. I need a POV from Adolin that shows he wants to make it work because it's Shallan, not because he needs to prove himself he can make a relationship work. What would've happen if the story didn't brought Shallan to Adolin ? As you pointed out he already dated every eligible girl in Alethkar. Does that mean he would've been doomed forever when it comes to love? I don't think so. Maybe I am a cynic, but I don't belive in "the one". Especially in the context of a book where the author can make everything seem believeable. You said at one point that you don't need Adolin to become a Radiant, but you need to see why he can't become a Radiant. It's a bit like that for me. I need to see why Shallan is the only one Adolin can work with and in the case Shallan ends with Kaladin, I need to see why is she the perfect fit for him and not for Adolin ( I know you don't think she's in any way, shape of form special or fit for Kaladin, but let's agree to disagree). HIs character is not only written around the imposibility of forming romantic relationships, but as you pointed out meaningful friendships too. Why do you think is that? It got me thinking if it's because of Dalinar or something that happened in his chilhood. You argue that Shallan is the one that could help him overcome this. I disagree. His problems have deeper roots than that and succeding with Shallan will only treat a symptom of the problem, not the cause. This is why I think Shallan being a milestone he crosses won't solve anything. If he and Shallan are to have a real , healthy relationship he needs to face and resolve his problems before. It's the same situation as it is with Kaladin. Being with her won't cure his depression, it can ameliorate his symptoms, but in the end it won't fix him. Shallan is not here to fix Adolin or Kaladin and they are not here to fix her. Their connections can do some good for everyone, but at the end of the day everyone has to dig deeper to fix themselves. Kaladin/Adolin (not in a romantic way ) can also help both characters, this is why I like the premise of this so called "love triangle". All of them will have strong connections I belive and that makes it an interesting read. I head Brandon say in a lecture that a way to create conflict in a love triangle is to have both love interests as equally desirable. This is why I belive both have a strong, real chance at a love story with her. I agree Adolin is a different kind of broken and I was a bit biased towards Kaladin, because depression is a thing that hits close to home for me. From all the issues I encountered in people in my lifetime I think depression is the worst. Out of all people you should know this best. That Adolin isn't Dalinar. This "love triangle" doesn't resemble the Navani-Dalinar-Gaviliar. As far as we can see, Adolin at his age is a much greater person than Dalinar was. As far as Adolin not having enough time to have another love interest introduced because he doesn't have many POV, I think it depends on where his arc story goes. If he is to revive his blade or become a Radiant or anything along those lines, his POVs will definetly expand, so we could see a satisfying story. I don't want you to get this the wrong way, but sometimes I get the feeling you don't want to accept any other vision for Adolin than your own. You conceded some points here and there, but when we find out that Adolin could become a highprince it was like everything else was doomed for him. We are only 10% into the book, maybe not even that and it surprised me how easy you got to that conclusion. Personally I don't want to think more about what will happen with Adolin, Shallan or any of the other characters. I want to be surprised by them and the story. So I will detach myself until we know more. When you are too invested or too close to a topic it's a bit difficult to be objective. I honestly hope you won't take my posts about Adolin the wrong way or as an attack. I really like his character and I am excited to see him find love and grow and be happy however Brandon will choose fit for his character. But I think some balance was needed in regards to what you said about him and Kaladin in these last few posts. Edit: Honestly, this may sound harsh, but I would hate if Adolin will get Shallan out of pity. Just because he doesn't have the great story arc that Kaladin or Shallan have, so he gets the girl as a consolation prize. I don't like that idea. Give Shallan to Adolin because he doesn't have anything else.

@maxal! You actually made me advocate, more than I wanted to. I was honest when I said I wanted to be Sweden when it comes to the shipping wars, but I actually feel like the reason you don't want to accept anything else for Adolin, rather than Shallan is because he is your favourite character and you want him to see beat Kaladin for once. I actually wrote an edit with a point I forgot to add, but I think it's better suited here. I don't want to contest your understanding of Adolin, because I know and one can see how much thought and love you put into his character, but I don't like how in these arguments you are reducing him to just one guy who's love for Shallan is the most important thing, the thing that will make him succed or not. If I didn't know better I would think the only interesting or important thing about Adolin is Shallan. The only way Adolin can grow is through a relationship with Shallan. It ties him too much to the posibility of succeding, that really puts me off. I hate it when a character becomes so dependent on someone else that they can't be their true self, they can't be strong enough on their own. What Adolin has for Shallan is infatuation at this point, it's not love. IMO one cannot love, truly love someone in such a short time, without having that raw knowledge of the other person. Without seeing who the other person truly is. Right now Adolin has a strong affection how Shallan, he's still falling, but I do not think that is love. Even if Brandon would write black on white tomorrow, that Adolin loves Shallan I wouldn't belive it .I know it would probably be true because he knows them better, but I won't accept it, not because of spite, but because I don't see it, I don't feel it yet. The kind of love that you describe would be so devastating and crippleling is the kind you love them whole, to know the other person like it would be one of your limbs, to let them become a part of you, as you become a part of them. That is the kind of love Adolin wouldn't be able to get over, because he would not only lose his best friend, but also a part of himseld. And I don't think any of them are there yet. To cut the cheesy speach about love, I expect if Adolin gets dumpt by Shallan for Kaladin (which I doubt will happen like that if it's to happen), to just learn from that and realise that he is strong and he won't just be nothing else because someone dumped him. You would say this if because we got used to Adolin being the strong one that can overcome everything. No! I would expect Kaladin as well to get his rust together and move on. I personally expect Kaladin to have a more difficult time, because given his personality he is more sensitive to opening up and forming connections, being them friendships or relationships. For a depressed person everything intensifies and their view of the world is more dramatic and gloomy than it actually is. This is why I belive "he won't just get over it". Adolin's personality is more on the happy side, it's easier for him to see the bright side of things and he wasn't broken until now. He has some daddy issues and a lot of pressure has been put on his shoulders, but he isn't emotionally crippled. Of course he needs love and happiness in his life, who doesn't ? But I don't belive Shallan is the only one that can give him that, nor do I think that about Kaladin/Shallan. If he gets dumped I expect him to cry, be hurt and get up and move on. If the doesn't do that, than he isn't the character I expected him to be. The same goes for Kaladin, Shallan and everyother character in this book. We are reading SA, not Twilight, so that we see characters crippled by love. Alethkar is not the whole world. As we've seen so far, there is much more Roshar out there and with the Oathgates soon to be open, there will be more girls that Adolin can try, before we decide he exausthed all options. Shallan isn't the last girl is Althetkar, I assume there are plenty of red heads in Jah Keved besides Shallan. I am only joking, I don't expect to see that. I realised I might look like I am defending Kaladin over Adolin and I don't want that. But the way you depicted Adolin in these last few posts made him look like he needs it. And I don't think he needs it in this context. As other people pointed today, he is not a victim, he is not weak, nor dull, the majority of the people you talk with on this forum (from the conversations I saw) understand that Adolin is great, that he has so much potential. I hate seeing him depicted as a poor little lamb, nobody loves and everyone forgets about. I understand you get defensive over him because you had to fight for him over the years, but right now (especially in the context of this thread) I want to belive we are talking about Adolin from the same level. I am not underestimating him in any way. I don't think who gets the girl is what will add satisfying growth for any of the characters. It won't mean one is better than the other. Do you really belive that is the only way for Adolin to have a satisfying growth? Through a relationship ?! As I said, the basis of every relationship is, or should be friendship. If the friendship is strong enough, it can last even though the relatioship failed. At this point in the story, I don't belive Adolin/Shallan are that emotionally invested that they couldn't overcome their problems and be friends if they were to broke up. So yes, I think if Brandon wants it to be that way, he could easily do it and be plausible. As for Adolin exausting his options with all the girls in Alethkar, I won't hold my breath. The way he approaches relationships and treats his dates, matters to me when I get to analize why something didn't work. I think it's a relevant thing that should be taken into consideration. Also the emphasis on "every girl" might be just for the sake of the story. I am sure if Brandon wants Adolin to end up with someone else, he can introduce a character written in such a way that it would be beliveable for the reader that they fit or ar suited for eachother. My belief is that one doesn't only have one meaningful relationship in life. Flings/attempts at relationships don't teach you that much about feelings or how to be in a relationship and we know Adolin had a lot of those, but he didn't have a closer connection to someone. I don't think that is the only or the strongest reason he should be with Shallan. Why can't he have a meaningful thing with her, that would teach him a thing or two about how relationships actually work and also find/love with someone else in the future? I don't say that I want to happen or this is how it should be resolved, but why do you think it's impossible? I still don't see what makes her so special in his eyes. Most people love more than one person in a lifetime. I get, this is a fantasy novel, not a romance one and we don't have time to see Adolin find "the one", but I feel like the notion of "the one" is a bit overrated. One can have a lot of special people in their lifetime and can learn from each of them. Ok. I'm done. I've ranted too much. I am sorry if I come across a bit heated in the beginning of the post.

haha, practice makes it perfect true. it's easier to express some thoughts when you're not in the heat of the moment

Sorry to jump into such a heated debate, but I wanted some clarifications to understand better how you view things. As you see I've mostly highligthed some sentences where you argue how much Shallan is not the one or important for Kaladin, as it if for Adolin. I disagree with this. It's true before the chasm we only got the "hatefull", dissmising view of Kaladin towards Shallan and between the chasm and the present, we didn't have much to nitpick when it comes to these two, but what we have I would argue it makes her special for Kaladin. It's not only because she is a lighteyes and he accepts she's not that bad. It's the strong character that she has, her optimism that shows one can be broken, but still smile, still feel. Lets not forget the famous quote "It was the single most beautiful thing he'd seen in his entire life". That doesn't sound like everyother girl to me, that doesn't sound like she's not special. But maybe it's just my opinion. And in the present day with We don't know that much about Kaladin previous relationship with Tarah, to give us a better understanding of how special Shallan is compared to other women in his life, but from what we've seen so far I would argue that she is. I don't think he loves her yet, because I suspect he is fighting his feelings towars her right now, but I though we established Adolin is not in love with her either at the moment. If Kaladin and Shallan explore their relationship we don't know if he'll "just get over it". From my experience people who sufffer from depression are more sensitive when it comes to relationships, because they have a hard time opening up and can get hurt pretty bad. I think we see this especially in Kaladin, when it's so hard for him to belive that not all lighteyes are bad. It's his selfdefense mechanism. So just moving on if he gets rejected in the case Shallan only "explores her feelings", might not be that easy. Now I get to the part I am actually curios about? Why do you think Adolin views Shallan in such a unique light ? I am not impling that he doesn't but what makes you think that? We as viewers know how complex and wonderful Shallan is, but until now, the facade she put for Adolin doesn't seem to have anything that special or out of the ordinary (beside the poop question). I don't recall right now any scenes where Adolin thinks of Shallan, am not saying they don't exist, just that I dont remember them. So if there are any it would be nice if you could direct me to them , I just want to understand better where your idea of "the one" came. I have the feeling the reason why Adolin failed in his relationships up until now is that he didn't try to be friends with the girls he was courting. We didn't see much of Adolin's dates or relationships up until now, we mostly heard of them from a third source. I can recall only one from WoK when he was investigating Elhokar's saddle incident and to be fair it seemed like he was dragging the poor girl in his boring affairs, rather than taking her on a date. I think we even have a moment when Narvani tells him to bring a girl flower, so while I know Adolin can be thoughtful and kind, I would argue that saying Kaladin can't treat a girl right, but Adolin is the only one who can, it's a bit biased. We haven't seen how Kaladin treated his girldfriends/love interests, we haven't seen the Kal that likes a girl. Adolin brings Shallan dinner and he is mostly nice with her, but I wouldn't put my hand in a fire that he was the perfect boyfriend in his ex-relationships or that he tried that hard to get close to someone, so that we can say so firmly that Shallan is the only one. My impression is what made Shallan special and important for him, is that they are also developing a friendship, beside the relationship.This is what makes her special for him, unique. But who is to say Adolin tried all the girls in Roshar and he came to the conclusion Shallan is the only one? I feel like that is a bit exagerated. Yes, so far she is special, but I have the feeling he wasn't very mature about his relationships in the past. And what makes a relationship strong, IMO, is the friendship that the two partners have. So it's not impossible that if two people broke up, they remain friends. Of course, it's not always the case and there are a lot of variables in any situation like that, but it's a posibility. I also didn't get the feeling Adolin is that desperate to make it work. You paint it a bit like it's his only chance at true happiness. How old is he 23-24? I know it's Roshar and the marriage views are different, but I don't think you are considered a failure if you're not married until 24. IMO he still has a lot to discover about himself, before he could be considered a lost case when it comes to love. I hope I expressed my points ok, they seemed more coherent when I started writing the post, but I tend to get lost with words. In conclusion I wanted to argued against "Shallan not being special for Kaladin" and ask you what do you think Adolin sees so special in Shallan, that can't find in anyone else in this world, that he would consider her his only chance at romance ?

@Elena haha that's great to hear. It's easier for Romanians to understand other latin languages, than it is for others to understand us. I like to say that Romanian is a latin language, but with a harsher, slavic pronounciation. Right! Back on topic

I agree that I don't like or support the dissmisal of Shalladin based on reasons that relate to the structure of the story or how the story is being written. The Helaran thing is a valid point from the Shadolin camp, but one that can be overcome. It depends on how Brandon choses to do it. So I am with you on this and the other points you made about Adolin.

Because at this point both ships have things that could go wrong. Dishonesty by ommision of "I killed my parents"/"I killed Sadeas" vs dishonesty by "not wanting to feel Shallan's rage when she finds out I killed her brother". Also, you can't really deny that dealing with the death of Helaran won't be a walk in the park. I don't think it will kill the relationship before it starts, but it's a milestone that will have to be adressed . Depending on how Brandon chooses to do that, they could overcome it or not. I said this on the main thread also, I don't like reducing people/ characters to tropes. Both Kaladin and Adolin are much more than just soldiers, I don't feel like I have to go into an essay to show that and I also think @maxal did a pretty good job of depicting Adolin's special side that not everyone sees. "Give Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar", Shadolin (or whatever the shipping name is) could develop into a deep, meaningful relationship. I am not saying I am wishing for it( or that I don't ), but it has that potential and I think it's a bit biased to deny that, because you boarded another ship. As well as the chasm scene is one of the most powerfull scenes in the book IMO( maybe one of my top 3 if I would ever make a top 3) and the people denying that must have read another book or their view was clouded by judgement.

Haha close, I'm actually Romanian, but latin languages tend to have a lot of similarities. Great post by the way! I relate to a lot of the feelings you have, especially Adolin being victimized. I liked him a lot from the start and never read him as a victim, but my perception about him has changed a bit since I came on the forum and sometimes I just want to skip the debates about him. That being said, I would love for him to remain an important character in the books and grow. And 1000 YES to keep the shipping topics off the main thread. And other polarizing topics let's make the main thread great again (sorry for the naughty joke, but I couldn't help it. I hope I won't get crucified for it )

I agree that Shallan and Kaladin have an interesting chemistry, that when I first read the book, I didn't give too much in, because I was really sure of the Shallan/Adolin pairing until the chasm scene. When I reread the book I let myself see these things that I ignored and it's clear they could have something going on. The seeds are there and it would be really easy to blossom with more focus from the author. Also, the reason why a lot of people like Shallan and Adolin, myself included, is because 'they fit', as Kaladin said. Yes, there were some red flags to them, but aside the Kaladin element, at this moment in the story their relationship resembles the most a real depiction of one (let's not all go into dishonesty and other stuff like that). I think a lot or readers find themselves in that, probably from their own experiences because it's nice. When you date in real life you eat together, go to the zoo, talk about passions and other stuff like that, you don't go off fighting chasmfiends with an upcoming storm above your head. But also, a lot of people feel , myself included, that it would be more fun to read about that sort of dramatic/passionate relationship because you are reading a fantasy book afterall. Bottom line, right now, I am somewhere in the middle. I actually find things in both relationships that I can relate to from my own experiences, so I think I will wait until I see more drama/action in Adolin/Shallan and more grounded nice moments in Kaladin/Shallan, before I will jump on a ship. Or I will stay on the ground because I get too invested and if my prefered ship drowns I can get really emotional

@maxal I really hope you won't get this wrong way and the fact that I am choosing to respond to you doesn't look like an attack or something like that. I hate how one can come across slontzey or mean on the internet so I hope I don't. In regards to saying "the dark and broody"/"love-hate" tropes have been used more than "rich boy falls for one of a kind girl"/"arranged wedding", and you called the Kaladin/Shallan relationship from the beginning, I think it's your personal experience when it comes to the form of entertainment you were exposed to. For someone who has read a lot of garbage chick-lit books, between Chronicles of Narnia and high fantasy, I can say my favourite trope was the "rich boy that can't commit who is super nice&thoughtful and falls for the nerdy/quirky girl" ( i just want to throw up when I read that sentence out loud and remember those times). Why I am admitting this, embarrassing myself ? Because I don't think one can quantify the usage of one trope over the other. Everyone will have biases & preferences and it's ok as long they don't try to push those as facts. I never read forums or opinions online before reading WoR, so until the infamous chasm scene I was sure Adolin and Shallan were set in stone (maybe because I was a bit bias over my favourite trope from my teen years), so I could argue that trope is overused and so on. We would never get anywhere. Both relationships have started with equal cliches as a base and now we see layers upon layers on that base. So you, me ore anyone else saying, yes both can be reduced to tropes, but one is more overused than the other is subjective because everyone talks from their own perception as to X is more cliche than Y. Likewise for the ones who don't want to see or accept that Adolin/Shallan had some really genuine and nice moments in these last two chapters. As much as I want, I can't skip all these discussions that come up and I feel like some of them are putting me off when it comes to characters, possible plot development etc This is why I am trying so much to be Sweden and arguing so that everyone can see how nice and carefree it can be. Sorry if I don't make much sense, my eyes are closing.

I think this is a very good point and summarizes my feelings exactly. When it comes to the shipping wars, I am under the impression people are fighting for who they like better, Shallan becomes a bit optional. Personally I liked both Kaladin and Adolin when I first read the books and I found both relationships intriguing and I wanted to see more. I still want and try to be as unbiased as I can, but one downside for me is that I get put off by the constant arguing and debating. I will either start avoiding these endless debates or switch to option c) none of the above. There is a saying in my language, that may sound stupid in english, that when two fight, the third will win.

Thank you ! This should be a pinned post if such thing would exist !

Look I really don't want to defend one relationship over the other. I hope I am not coming across as this, because I am mostly trying to stay impartial until I see both things developing further. PRO and CON arguments, have been made for both of the relationships, there is no need to bring those up, and I mostly agree with both sides when they are connected to each character's personality . Things as tropes or "oh, they only connected because they were in a life threatening situation" , they will take up too much page time or love triangles are boring are not in my opinion valid points, because they could go bad if the author is bad or the characters are weak and the "love" is the only the only thing defining them, which is definitely not the case here. You can of course have a preference on what you want to see happen or not, but preferences are not valid arguments. I am saying these things because I personally have faith that Brandon knows his characters best and the direction things will go, is the direction is natural for them to go. We are seeing parts of the story and try to fit them in the bigger picture as best as we can. I said this another time as well, but what I love about BS is the way he can take simple or overused tropes, spin them and make the reader see things in a different light. Life is full of tropes and no idea is original, but everything can be mixed and twisted in order to create something special.

I don't want to jump in the shipping wars, but if we are reducing both relationships to tropes, you can easily say Shallan and Adolin's relationship is an overused trope as well (arranged marriage that goes well, rich prince that can't commit to anyone but falls in love with the quirky girl etc ). Every relationship can be reduced to that. All three characters have things about them that could either make or break a relationship. Right now I am trying to not favor any of the pairings, but reducing Shalladin to tropes is as simplistic as doing the same with Shalladolin. They are all complex and interesting characters, that have different and potential interesting dynamics. I am sure Shallan's relationship with both will be explored further, because there are things to be considered in both cases. I feel like there is more to them than just some silly tropes. Also I find it a bit ironic you brought up the point of a support structure in a person, when one of the main reason against Shallan/Kaladin was that it's not healthy for Kaladin to cure his depression by being in a relationship with Shallan. I totally agree that in a relationship you partner becomes part of your support and helps you with what you are going through, as much I agree with the fact that it's not ok to rely only on one person or your partner. The way I see it, you make a person part of your support system, not the entire structure. Just because you or anyone else doesn't want one of the relationship to happen and prefers one over the other is not an argument against either.

Yes! This definitely happened for me too. When it comes to easter egg, connections and world building I love how the Shard opened my eyes to some stuff. I agree. My view of the characters is what has been influenced the most by reading posts here. I think Adolin, Lift and Elhokar are my top 3 characters that I have a skewed views on now. The first time I read about Lift & her awesomeness, I didn't have any strong feelings about her,but while reading Edgedanger I would get constantly annoyed. The same goes for Adolin, I really liked him as a character and I enjoyed his story arc, but I constantly come across theories about him on threads with another topic and that put me off a bit, because I feel like I will have no surprise when it comes to him now. It's like I have read every possible scenario and I am just waiting to see which one is going to happen. When it comes to Elhokar, I didn't care much about him. He was kind of annoying for me in 2 first 2 books, but now reading everything about him, I have such big hopes about I want to happen that I will get really upset if it doesn't. I agree. I feel like rereading and paying attentions to all the things that are happening enriches my experience when it comes to Cosmere stuff. I think for me the best way to go about it is to skip the character arcs analisys and focus more on the worldbuilding and the magic and let myself be surprised when it comes to characters. Nice analogy @Belzedar

Hej ! I recently joined the forum and reading the OB chapters every week and following the disscusions got me thinking of something. How being part of this forum, either posting or lurking, has influenced your reading experience ? I am more of a lurker, but rereading WoK and being up to date with OB, I realised that my perception of the characters and the events has changed a lot and I am not sure it's for the best. I caught myself being biased towards some characters or being more aware of what I am reading, thinking how will the forum rip that apart instead of just enjoying the read. By no means I am saying that disscusing and theorizing is bad, but do you ever feel like it takes away from the joy of reading or experiencing something through your own filter? Much along the lines of "ignorance is bliss", I am afraid that I won't be surprised anymore or if I am it will be in a way I don't enjoy it, because I have other ideas in my head about what I would like to happen and so on. I don't have friends around me that read any BS (god knows how many times I tried to pay my sister to read it, only to have someone to theorize with ), but I like to share opinions with others, which is why I'm on this forum. But seeing how much people here know or talking about things that I would never have picked up, affects the way I am going into these books. What do you think ?

The last thing Shallan said to Pattern in WoR is "I hate you" and that she wants her family back. The first time we see her in OB, she is ignoring Pattern and finding excuses that the Blade and him are different. Each time he tries to open the subject of her mother's death she goes in denial, so much that she has to create another persona in order to stand using him as a sword. Sorry, but I don't see improvement, I see someone that is avoiding the truth. It's true, we don't know yet if she will create more versions of herself, but I think it's not that crazy to asume that this is a pattern she will follow (like the copycat murder. We don't have any assurance there will be another one, but everyone kind of expects it). When it comes to Veil I agree it was out of necessity and she was being pragmatic. But I don't get the same feeling from Radiant. Why? Because Radiant came from a place of panic and fear of coping with the truth and I feel like it can be really easy for her to get lost in that. In a comfort place where she doesn't have to come to terms with the fact that she killed her parents and her spren, her powers and what she is facilitated that. What would stop her for leaving Shallan behind and embrace this new composed persona ? I am not saying is happening, but that is very possible and easy to do. This is why I am worried for her. I agree Shallan is very different from Vin, my thoughts were that I don't want another expert fighter/warrior female character. At least not in Shallan. I agree she has to know how to defend herself and I hope it will end with some basic knowledge of that. Look I am not saying Shallan is crazy, I don't belive she is crazy or she has DID, not yet at least. But she is traumatized. She's been a victim of abuse and now she is trying to cope with that as best as she is able to. I don't blame her and I am not saying it's not a natural reaction. But I don't think you can resume it to trying to invent a different character for a little boost of confidence. It's not a 'fake it till you make it" kind of situation. At least not in my mind. We're not talking about social anxiety or fear of public speaking. This is someone who doesn't want to come to terms with the fact she killed her parents and her mother tried to kill her. As cliche as it sounds "The first step to solve a problem is to admit you have one". IMO she has to face her fears and come to terms with what she did and then I will say this habit of hers is harmless.

@kari-no-sugata How is she improving her relationship with Pattern if she's not able to accept him as the blade ? And she creates a different version of herself in order to deal with it? We saw in her first chapter that she was telling herself Pattern and the blade are two separate things.. That doesn't sound like accepting the situation or like she's on the way to make peace with it. How long before these personas aren't under her control ? I agree right now is not that difficult for her to manage them, but what will happen when she will make more? It's not sustainable to make a diffrent persona for every problem she's afraid to face. This is unrelated to your arguments, but I would hate for Shallan to become a warrior. There are plenty of those in the book and I think part of her charm and what I love about her is that she can be a hero and help thanks to her wits and talents. I don't want to see another Vin

Maybe because she can also Soulcast ? I am sure this was talked about, but I didn't pay enough attention, but can she Soulcast because she is a Radiant or because she has something special to her ? Probably the Cryptics don't want to lose that ?