Dreamstorm

It's called heterochromatic and the former king of Jah Keved has a bastard son (Redin) with dual-eye color. I hope he reappears, as he was pretty badass.

What I think we see over and over in SA is that there are two kinds of consequences to a character doing a "bad" action - external consequences vs. internal consequences. I think you create a reasonable argument that there will be no further external consequences for Adolin. (Though I would argue that in our last Dalinar viewpoint, we see Dalinar muse "Adolin was not the man Dalinar had thought he was - but then, couldn't he forgive someone for that?" which indicates that Dalinar isn't set on the fact he "forgives" Adolin and that this change in how Dalinar see Adolin will reverberate throughout future books - we are told time and time and time again how Dalinar thinks Adolin is a much better person than Dalinar himself is, so this is a huge perspective shift for Dalinar.) But, for the sake of argument, let's say there are no more external consequences for Adolin murdering Sadeas like you say. However, that says nothing for Adolin's internal consequences; how him committing this murder shapes the way he views himself and the world around him. This is a constant theme in SA - Kaladin with Elhokar is a good example; there were no external consequences for Elhokar for Kaladin, but he suffered massively because the fact he was doing nothing about it was crippling him internally. So much of SA is about how one deals with one's actions have far-reaching effects (to pull from our non-main three, Amaram and Moash's stories are very focused on how they justify their actions internally), that I can't see this driving force throughout the books just being dropped when it comes to Adolin. It wouldn't be that Adolin was boring; it would be that he would be existing under fundamentally different rules than our other characters by not having internal consequences for his actions. One thing about Adolin is that the strongest emotions he displays in the entire series is over his hate for Sadeas (contrast this with the way he deals with Shallan mooning over Kaladin - there's just resignation and slight annoyance where most reasonable people would be angry), so for me that hints that we will see the most internal development in Adolin surrounding these emotions. Adolin's hatred for Sadeas is a defining part of Adolin's character, so I can't imagine that Adolin will be literally the only character who won't have internal consequences for those emotions, even if the external consequences are not severe. Can you share these WoB's which say Brandon doesn't have plans for Adolin to have character growth and development? The ones I've read don't jive with that, and that would make Adolin unique as the only character treated as thus. So, I pruned this down a bit (partially because I think you can't tell that much about Adolin's internal thoughts from other PoVs), but what I see here is a consistent pattern of not thinking about the Sadeas murder and overworking himself to distraction. Can you really say that is healthy? Do you really think if Brandon wanted to show that the murder was justified and shouldn't effect Adolin that in the few viewpoints we get of Adolin he's pushing away his feelings and throwing himself in work/the fight instead? I just don't think it's reasonable to say, based even on the few viewpoints we have, that Adolin has actually dealt with his feelings (this is even separate from the fact he hasn't suffered any true internal consequences for the action.) So, I can understand why a Dark Adolin plot line would be unsatisfying for you individually, but from a literary craftsmanship perspective, why do you think this would be a unsatisfying plotline? (Or if it's just your individual opinion, that's fine too.) Dark Adolin doesn't have to stay Dark Adolin; he could emerge from it a stronger person. I also just want to point out that on one hand you say that everyone likes Adolin because he's not secretive and introspective and then on the other hand you think it's wishful thinking of fans that Adolin will go dark... those two don't really jive because it seems like you can't decide if everyone loves Adolin or everyone hates Adolin. At least from what I've been pointed to (and I'm a very reluctant Dark Adolin quasi-believer because I actually quite like having Adolin around the way he is), there are some definite hints that something might happen to turn Adolin to the Dark Side (Anakin - Adolin, totally the same right?), not to mention Brandon's clear writing philosophy is that actions have definite consequences (which getting Adolin out of a job as king he didn't want doesn't count - in some ways that makes it worse because he uses the murder as an excuse to avoid responsibility.) I think it all hinges on the Sadeas hatred and whether or not Adolin will truly face that. Btw, just as an aside, it's a funny position to be in to try and convince you that your favorite character isn't/will not always be boring!

I rate OB similar with WoK, and I see them as similar books. The first two books - WoK and WoR - are what I like to think of as the Shattered Plains arc. WoK is spent establishing our characters and then getting them to the SP (for Shallan, that's the beginning of WoR of course.) Then we have a whole bunch of incredible climaxes and coalescing storylines at the end of the SP arc. In OB, our story completely shifts location to Urithiru and the book is, IMO, mostly about setting the stage there and getting our new main players (e.g. Jasnah, Szeth, Lift, Taln, Ash) situated in (or in proximity to) that location. As such, it's just not the same kind of book as WoR. After WoR, and how storming fabtabulous that book was, I think it's natural to feel a little let down with OB. But, I think OB is setting the stage for our next big arc (I don't know if this will take us through book 5, but am thinking it will), so there weren't as much awe-inspiring moments and more stagnated, but in my mind in-depth, character development. Plotlines don't necessarily move forward (Dalinar being the big exception), but our characters generally have depth added to them which is hard to do when the focus is on those amazing moments. I'm loving the book more and more in retrospect, but I think it is very hard to write "middle" books which leave readers that satisfied as by their very nature, there are many loose ends. We got one complete "story" (Dalinar) for our own reading satisfaction, but in my mind, the true focus of the book was to develop our characters and set the stage for what is to come. In that respect, I found it to be immensely satisfying.

Hmmmm from a pure record-keeping perspective that seems challenging. But thanks for confirming I wasn’t missing it! (And sorry for the derailment everyone )

Navani (loving the Sibling idea), Jasnah (as queen), Adolin (doing something other than being there for everyone), the people of Rira (next great struggle in unification of Roshar), Cultivation (hope we find out her name and get some back story with Tanavast), lots of listener/singers due to it being Eshonai’s book, Taln and Ash (captured by Jasnah) - fast forward time please to next book release? Total aside not as all related to this, but it’s been bothering me - do we know Kaladin’s real last name before everyone started calling him Stormblessed? I assume he had one?

Oh, duh. Here I go, just like Rlain fears, discounting him as a member of Bridge Four Day, night, highstorm, everstorm... I’m taking as all WoB approved

I don’t remember seeing more than this either, and that it was a “unconscious” thing, though he seems to have run with it in OB with our long description of how hot Jasnah is My search for another WoB on this point led me to an awesome new one! https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e3995 First, who is our asexual B4 character? Sigzil? Also, my insane happiness that I have author approval to insert all the premarital sex I want into the books! (Well unless it’s not allowed in-world, i.e. Vorinism says it’s an absolute no.) WoB on boring Vorinism: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e1443

Yup we do https://wob.coppermind.net/events/262-oathbringer-glasgow-signing/#e8803 @maxal you may take this the wrong way, but where you are with Adolin's character development is pretty similar to how a lot of us felt about the love triangle resolution; there was so much there and why, why, why didn't Brandon use it when he was the one who wrote it in the first place?!? I think a lot of us have sorted through our feelings (50+ pages of feelings, so many feelings) and basically come to the conclusion that, it's not over. This is the absolute middle book of the 5-book arc, so there is a lot of story left to tell. I personally think the reason Adolin's arc didn't progress is because it is very tied to Shallan's romantic arc; in fact both of them are stuck in the same place as they were in WoR (Sadeas is dead, not much came of it besides the reveals to Shallan and Dalianar which could have happened in the first chapter of OB to be honest; Shallan is still with Adolin and Kaladin still feels like it's not his place to be in the middle, the only thing which came of it was betrothal turned into marriage and we now have plenty of confirmation that Shallan (via Veil) has feelings for Kaladin, whereas that was not so explicit in WoR.) So, I think we will see major shifts on both these fronts in the next book, possibly primarily because we will see major developments for Adolin. One thing I noticed in your post is that in order to deal with your grief over Adolin not doing much (I'm using grief because going through the stages of grief was much referenced on this thread in terms of the love triangle resolution), you are thinking of things in terms of absolutes; I don't think we know a lot of the things you assert we know, and though I understand that it can feel satisfying to do a 180 in order to cope with your disappointment over Adolin's arc (i.e. Brandon will never do anything with Adolin's character), that kind of thinking ends up making me more upset! On a couple specific points: I've found his books to be completely opposite - side characters end up being well-fleshed out. To take Mistborn as an example, in the first book, the focus is tightly on Kelsier and Vin, but by the end we have full story arcs for Marsh, Sazed, Spook, Breeze, TenSoon, and I would even say Dox and Clubs get a lot of nuance. On your point about Brandon not being reflective, he wrote the following about Ham's character in the Mistborn annotations: One thing I have noticed about Brandon, is that he frequently is analyzing the quality of his work and how he can make it better. Since we are at a mid-point of a very long series, it's hard to evaluate where things will be at the end. I think you're right that he won't say now - "I messed up and made Adolin boring" - because that would give away too much future plot by saying Adolin is always going to be boring. Also don't forget we know the betas did bring up the Sadeas point, so that reader reaction has been brought to his attention; he just chose to handle it the way he did. My opinion is that Adolin has the fourth-most viewpoints after our main three; he has, as you note, a ton of backstory and character development; but we just haven't seen any payoff for that backstory and development. I think it's coming! This isn't the case, actually. With the Skybreakers following Odium and Malata working against our main crew (spying and possibly opening the Oathgate to Kholinar), we have seen Radiant discord already. The in-world WoR book excerpts also show divisions between orders. Increased Radiant v. Radiant conflict will almost inevitably become more prominent as the series goes on. I think this is the tricky part... I think I can 99.9% guarantee we will see significant development from Adolin in the future. Now, will you find that development satisfying? I don't know. Based on little hints (e.g. off the top of my head - whitespine, Sadeas killing, Adolin's satisfaction with the Sadeas killing, some of his aggressive actions from Kaladin's PoV before they were friends), I think Brandon could be priming us for a Dark Adolin character arc... If that's the case, I bet that will be hard for a lot of readers to swallow. That's just one way of tying together the hints we have about Adolin's future path, but I am very, very confident he will develop into a less "perfect" character, if only because I have no evidence that Brandon as an author will let his fourth-most prominent character go completely to waste; he just hasn't done that before. (Re. Ham above, he was the equivalent of saying Drehy didn't get enough development.) Anyway, I don't mean this as an attack so I hope you don't take it as such, but I do think your disappointment over Adolin's development in OB has made you look at things in a very absolute manner, which is possibly making you even more disappointed. We have a lot more to see of Adolin in books to come!

Ok, I agree with this. We can be friends again Shallan actually said the first "a head" joke to Kaladin in the chasms, so if this is intentional it's even stronger, because Kaladin is either subconsciously or consciously copying her. Oh, I love how a repeated bad pun can become yet another pro-Shalladin argument

Repeating what so many have said, this was awesome. I feel like every day there are more pieces of symbolism which tie these two together. If you're the dupe, well, he tossed away so much... Building on this, I really like this bit from OB where Adolin is observing Shallan's changing upon seeing Kaladin do his windspren thing (bold mine): With standing up being one of the main (if not the main) symbolism tied to Shallan's healing in OB, I like how changing from "Shallan" to Veil causes her stand solidly. Such great imagery, and I think ties into your point about Kaladin inspiring her to heal herself. (Note also that this is immediately after the Adolin/Sadeas discussion where she is sitting down with him and then she stands up to go watch Kaladin, so another point where we see the sitting/standing motif pulled through.) I shipped Kadolin so hard after WoR. Like searching down fanfic hard. I found out pretty much right away that there was no way Brandon would go there (he said no gay viewpoint characters), but I couldn't give it up emotionally. They have such a classic enemies to lovers romantic arc in WoR!! Also before my hopes were dashed, I was thinking that Adolin's inability to get into a relationship was related to a subconscious desire to not be intimate with a woman, which I could also see in the way he never initiates intimate contact with Shallan in WoR. I don't sense the same spark between Kaladin and Adolin in OB, sadly, though there are a couple moments like the one you point out. I was going more for how I would feel as Shallan, because I find it selfish for Adolin to turn the conversation to himself and his problems when it started as a conversation about Shallan and her problems. But, this could also be read as him finding a way to relate to how she feels, so it's a matter of personal preference. I don't find Adolin very good with emotional support (Dalinar in WoK for example), so I'm definitely reading that into him. As you said, it's impossible to actually know his feelings because we rarely see them, and when we do, they aren't very nuanced. (The lack of us really knowing his feelings for Shallan is really glaring, for example. We get a couple lines in WoR which are just listing character traits, and then the most we really see him even thinking about her is noticing her fawning over Kaladin IIRC.) Veil's feelings for Kaladin in OB were pretty superficial, though, which aligns with Shallan's mooning over Adolin. So much about eyes and rugged handsomeness and whatever else she goes on about. I found it annoying, but I think Brandon would say that it's accurate for teenagers (based on his lectures saying the emotions in Twilight felt right for teenagers, but the conclusion that this was "true love" was the unrealistic part.) I think we're supposed to see as readers that her attraction to Kaladin is deeper than that, but I'm not sure Shallan recognizes it as such. Of course, she's pushing those feelings down to Veil, so it's not like she's exploring them. Love this! Great to see a reason besides comic relief for this emphasis. There's like half a chapter in OB (Deadeyes, Ch. 101) which is primarily about how Adolin dresses himself and how Captain Ico and Azure perceive him because of it, which ties into this nicely. Ok, now we're fighting. I love, love, love Snape. "Always" will still bring tears to my eyes. Even after all this time... Or perhaps intentional that it's a repeat I didn't originally think it was that weird to omit the TC flying scene, but I find the tower viewing scene particularly suspicious because it's more of an easter egg that it even happened, since you have to tie it to Shallan's off-hand comment in part 1 and notice that Kaladin is on the sketch. Or maybe I just think it's weirder because I didn't realize it was Kaladin in the sketch until someone pointed it out. But it's strange. And like you it makes me think there's something to it besides space concerns. But I also probably read too much into everything Shalladin @PhineasGage I feel like I co-opted your posting style. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?

Thanks! I'll have to look it up. I totally agree with your distinction too... playing off Order vs. Nature can we possibly think of these as Known (understood, studied, explained) versus Unknown (novel, mysterious, requiring additional scholarship) where despite its aggressive nature, whitespines are well-known by Rosharians (Shallan notes in WoK Ch. 39 Burned Into Her that scholars prefer studying big, dynamic animals like whitespines, which implies there has been a lot of scholarship on them, plus they are common enough in Alethkar proper, i.e. hunted by Kaladin's town, and kept in menageries) versus chasmfiends who weren't even known to exist until recently and haven't been studied properly. I totally agree he's recognizing her switching between personas, but I don't think whole-Shallan is in the mix. If it was, and especially if that was what Adolin selected, why would she need to "stuff down" Veil and Radiant "into the back part of her brain" a few paragraphs later? If they were integrated during the "That's the one I am" decision, than that decision would have been made taking into account all three personas, so there would be no need to suppress any of them. There are many varying opinions on what would work best for Shallan to resolve her problems, but one thing you'll see people mention a lot (at least on our admittedly pro-Shalladin thread) is that it's not good for Adolin to be treating one of Shallan's personas differently from the other, which he is by refusing to be intimate with Veil and treating her as a drinking buddy. Another common theme is that I don't think anyone has thought Shallan should have run to Kaladin and started a relationship with him; the popular conclusion (again, of this pro-Shalladin crew) has been that Shallan should have chosen to not be in a relationship with either guy.

I totally get where you're coming from here with how the characters tie into the symbolism. I think Brandon, however, ties Adolin to whitespine pretty strongly in the Whitespine Uncaged chapter ("Adolin attacked. [...] They were like spears prodding at a whitespine. And this whitespine was not yet caged.") and again in The Darkness (Ch 22) where Ialai compares Sadeas' killer (who we know to be Adolin) to a whitespine. I think where this gets really interesting is that Shallan definitely doesn't seem to think of Adolin as a whitespine. (She is the one making the fine art vs. rock formation comparison.) To pull back @PhineasGage's point that because we mostly see Adolin through the eyes of others, our perspective of Adolin is skewed. We actually see Adolin's personality mostly through Shallan, and she is our least reliable narrator. So I don't know how much I trust the "perfect boyfriend" spin she puts on him. If we look at Adolin from Kaladin's viewpoint before they become friends, we get a different picture. What is sticking out in my mind is Kaladin and Adolin's spar in Ch. 18 Bruises where Adolin (wearing shardplate) slams Kaladin (without shardplate) so brutally that Zahel really gets into Adolin about his behavior. That's not the perfect, humble prince who is kind to everyone... I have no clue what this is! Can someone educate me? You totally read my mind about breaking this down Couple more things to add... Adolin's actually not that humble, especially about his dueling. He is decidedly arrogant in Ch. 22 Lights in the Storm ("When I beat them." after Kaladin uses "if"). Again, this is Kaladin's perception (they aren't friendly at the time), but I think it's safe to say Adolin is arrogant, not humble, about his dueling skill. (That arrogance seems warranted, but it's still there.) Not to go down this path again, but there wasn't a whole Shallan for Adolin to even recognize... I think this is pretty well supported by the WoB on that fact the Shallan is one person in the spiritual realm, and as such any persona who is shutting out Veil and Radiant isn't the whole Shallan. So, yes, Adolin recognizes "Shallan", but this statement loses its power if Adolin just recognizes when one part of Shallan is dominating. Though he might listen to the words she says, he also has exhibited many times he's tone deaf to noticing how she's feeling (e.g. when she was distressed about learning the sword and disassociates into Radiant; when she's distressed over learning Kaladin killed Heleran), and I would even argue that their most intimate conversation - where Shallan admits to her fractured personas and Adolin tells her he killed Sadeas - shows tone deafness as well, despite the fact that he seems to come to the correct conclusion (they are both lying to the world.) He turned a topic which was very personal and distressing to Shallan into a conversation about himself. Is that really listening? Agreed so much on this being flat out wrong. By pushing for "Shallan" to be the persona and subjugating Veil and Radiant, he's actually encouraging her to not be herself (again I think the WoB makes it pretty clear the real Shallan is all three together as that is who she is in the spiritual realm) and to hide parts of herself (Veil and Radiant) away. He doesn't know it, though, but that doesn't make the effect any better.

Agreed it's not that significant, but I wanted to be as fair as I could in the Adolin passion association Oh, total tangent, I noticed (as I was searching for passionspren references) that Dalinar's chapter where he kills his own men and almost kills Gavilar is called "Blackthorn Unleashed" (OB Ch. 16), which has symmetry to the title of Adolin's duel-fighting chapter "Whitespine Uncaged" (WoR Ch. 56). The fighting in the chapters is in a totally different contexts, but Brandon's chapter titles have proven prescient in retrospect before.

Hi! Welcome to our thread! I love this point above and it wasn't something I'd picked up on before. To take the part in bold a little bit further in the context of Kaladin as a "man of passion". @PhineasGage wrote the following in her essay comparing how Shallan describes Kaladin in line with how she describes her father (bold mine): Note the passion description continues throughout OB, e.g. noting Kaladin "had to be strict with himself to contain his passion" and drawing "passionate eyes" in her sketch instead of notetaking for Jasnah (OB Ch. 39 Notes); and "all that could fade before Kaladin's passion" and Kaladin is "like a wild spren of passion trapped by the oaths and codes" on Honor's Path ((OB Ch. 108 Honor's Path). Consider this in context of the WoK annotation @mariapapadia noted earlier (bold mine): So, Brandon sees the "real" Shallan as one with flaring passion that is buried inside her. I think it's strongly implied that he sees this passion as a character development end point; indeed it is definitely something he is keeping in mind as he develops Shallan's character given he mentions it in an early annotation. As many have pointed out, and I agree, Shallan's most powerful scene in OB is when she fights Re-Sehpir (OB Ch. 30 Mother of Lies): This feels like the embodiment of Shallan tapping into the underlying passion, or as Brandon says, being far more "her". Note that after this moment (where Shallan is admitting her painful truths to tap into that passion), Shallan has an about face (bold mine): So she covers her truth and passion up with illusions and lies to herself. She's not ready to face that passion within her, because that passion is what will make her come face-to-face with her lies. (Her remembering her lies, especially her mother's death which we rarely see her mention to herself, seems to be a key part in tapping this passion.) So, to wrap this up... like you said, just as Radiant seems to be tipping the balance towards Kaladin, the Shallan persona "stuffs" Radiant and Veil "into the back part of her brain." Because she's not ready to face the passion that she sees in Kaladin, because that would mean facing the passion in herself, passion which she stuffs down due to its association with her father, passion which she stuffs down because it forces her to confront truths about herself. And passion, which our dear author sees as the most "her" and part of "the person she could become." Just a small note about Adolin and passion. Shallan does mention Adolin in relation to passion. I haven't done a full search, but for instance: she notes, "She felt herself melting at the intense concern in those eyes, the passion" when Adolin is talking about Sadeas and wanting to "pound that grinning face of his into the stones and take back my father's Blade" (WoR Ch. 49 Watching the World Transform); and she lists the fact Adolin is "passionate about his art" (i.e. dueling) in her speech on why she chose him (OB Ch. 121, Ideals). Also Shallan often has passionspren around her when kissing Adolin. The motif isn't nearly as prevalent as when she is describing Kaladin and seems mostly associated to Adolin's fighting (/killing Sadeas - storms that quote is disturbing), but she definitely associated passion with Adolin as well just not as consistently and holistically as she does with Kaladin.

Wooooo!! I've been waiting for this! Please, please do one for OB too Here are some thoughts of mine: Lots of themes you mention carry through to OB: constant boots references (up to the pre-wedding scene); Syl continuing to push on Kaladin's emotions about Shallan; Adolin's protectiveness (totally didn't see that about Elhokar - good catch) even up to disembarking from Honor's Path; Kaladin's jealousy (also didn't see it that early - the inconsistencies with what he tells himself as excuses for being by Shallan, lol); Shallan's love of hats (Syl telling Kal he can give the hat she gets in Celebrant to Shallan bc she loves hate, which he says is true) I never thought about the "why "of Hoid being the carriage driver - that definitely calls that moment as significant, because Hoid doesn't show up for crem and giggles Couple points in the chasm I liked the - interact as people first, Radiants second - point; I never made that connection, but makes a lot of sense why the moment was needed prior to the public Radiant unveil We've talked about this... but the "adult" interpretation of the storm hitting in the chasms versus in the watching the world transform chapter... One thing which has always stood out to me about that sequence is how tactile they both are with each other. This is sort of in Shallan's nature (though I think a bit odd for her with someone she ostensibly dislikes) and not at all in Kaladin's. When he shoves her in the crack at the chasmfiend attack, I particularly thought it odd she was so grabby of him. Lots and lots of touching. (Renarin would hate it.) You mentioned the natural history vs. fine sculpture earlier in this thread, but I didn't get it until I saw it here. That's another pretty piece of symbolism. WoK Ch. 3 City of Bells: "She had thought long about her Calling. The obvious choice was her art, and she did so love sketching. But it was more than just the drawing that attracted her - it was the study, the questions raised by observation. [....] So she'd chosen natural history instead." WoR Ch. 70 From a Nightmare: "There was sort of a rugged handsomeness to the fellow. Like the beauty of a natural rock formation, as opposed to a fine sculpture like Adolin." What I particularly like about this is that she loves art, and she spend a lot of time debating which to choose, but in the end she went with natural history. This is really mirroring reality. I don't read that much into the death rattle; I feel like that's more about them being Radiants (people who survive when they should not a la the Diagram) than any K/S connection At the end of the Kaladin section, my first thought was that I had totally underestimated how much Kaladin was interested in Shallan! He's constantly telling himself otherwise and making excuses, so I guess I kinda believed him. Whoops. Couple questions: Carrying on what we talked about earlier, do you see any changes with Adolin being the whitespine? You compare Kaladin to whitespine (and chasmfiend), so not sure if any of your analysis (particularly with the menagerie) changes with the Adolin mindset. Does knowing the meaning behind Adolin's name (born unto light) change anything for you? That was awesome!! I'm incredibly impressed with your objectivity in presenting everything as well. I also think your possible conclusions have kind of come true if we replace "full betrothal" with "marriage", but book 4 will be the crucial one in the that regard. Thank you so much for sharing this! @mariapapadia welcome back aboard the SS Shalladin - it's kinda like Hotel California, you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave Where you're at now reminds me of where I was a couple of days ago before I had my sitting/standing revelation. You just realize that so much foreshadowing and symbolism and mirroring and page time, etc., was used to build up this connection between Kaladin and Shallan, and then we got.... nothing. This is how I reconciled it in my mind: A good author doesn't place all these hints in a story and then have it come to nothing. I choose to believe Brandon is a good author, and he has not given me any reason to believe otherwise (i.e. he doesn't drop hints and them have them lead to nothing.) Therefore, this isn't over. As an aside, I wrote this little blurb in a discussion with Phineas (which I'll spoiler both for length and because it spoils Mistborn Era 1) which shows how I think about misdirecting vs. misleading the reader as it pertains to this discussion: That was storming awesome. If only we got that Shallan! This is the Re-Sephir fighting Shallan!

I don't want to bring this back, but thought people might find it interesting: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8321

Totally agree. Usage of "nine" should also be analyzed in the books... this thread is now an advanced-level English class "Analyzing Brandon Sanderson's Oathbringer" complete with homework

Would definitively be an interesting about face, kind of like another, um, highly controversial theory (*cough* Shalladin) which is... So I'm (still) on my WoK reread, and when I got to the chapter where Adolin is in the wine house, I literally set my book down thinking, where is this Adolin?!? He's so snotty ("I hate being wrong") and dismissive of his friends (not to mention Danlon), it feels like a totally different person. He's definitely a show-off in the prostitute scene. And totally obnoxious to Kaladin (which contrasts this egalitarian person we see later - drinking buddies with Skar and Drehy for example.) Where did he go?? Did Shallan in her magic "making the prince perfect" powers transform him? Maybe reviving Maya will unleash the whitespine within him and actually be the catalyst for him going bad... At least that would add some interest to the Maya revival storyline besides "yay, go Adolin!" and the realmatics behind it. Love the "sign of the nine" callback, too. There was a lot of discussion on that with the prerelease chapters, but it was dismissed as coincidental.

But I don't want him to be bad! I'm a Goodolin shipper versus you Badolin shippers. So far in what we've seen in the story, Adolin is good, good, good, he just got a little angry with Sadeas! That doesn't mean anything! Everyone hated Sadeas! Don't read into things so much! (I'm joking around, but I personally don't want him to go bad )

I pair this missing with the missing wedding. The simple way of looking at it, is that Brandon felt these scenes wouldn't have anything to add (from a narrative POV, not fan satisfaction) and he didn't have the space to include them. The more complex way is that we're supposed to read into this... Kaladin and Shallan aren't important enough as a couple to show this potentially intimate scene; Adolin and Shallan aren't important enough as a couple to show the wedding. Both of these moments could be seen as the most intimate (or potentially intimate) moments between each pairing; we really don't see Kaladin and Shallan truly together except perhaps the palace infiltration scene where Shallan is stabbed so this would have been the only possibility of legitimate alone time vs. wedding which is a pretty obvious symbolically intimate moment for a couple. Neither is worth the time developing because in the end what Shallan needs is intimate moments with herself in order to advance her emotional journey. But... more likely just a space issue, though I do find it off the flying to TC even came up when it went nowhere Wait, this actually happened?? Oh, I see what you mean about the artwork, that is really odd as yeah, those pictures had to be from the air/a distance. Is this even mentioned in the text as happening? (I know she references wanting to in Part 1, but I don't remember anything about it in Part 2 when it actually would have happened.) This makes me put one foot on the "something weird is happening which is why we didn't get these scenes" dinghy... ETA: We sure that figure in the drawing is Kaladin? Spear makes me think so. Super long ponytail hair and nipped in waste makes me think it's kind of feminine. But looks like totally uncovered left hand... Just a couple things to add (bolded some of the parts I'm referring to)... Shallan definitely see Adolin as a trophy which she hunts. I would argue Adolin is in captivity except at the few moments he is unleashed (duel, killing Sadeas), so he currently in a chrysalis/languishing in captivity. Regarding relationships, he also doesn't form close friendships; this is mentioned in the wine house scene in WoK and of course we see how superficial those friendships were in WoR. He is closest to his brother and father, and both of those relationships are built on a bit of a lie (that Adolin is not a dangerous whitespine.) I could go further and say that the blandifying (totally a word) of Adolin's personality in OB is just him retreating further and further into his chrysalis/captivity, which will only explode later... I may be giving Adolin's character way too much credit, as I do read him as so much sunshine and light with only a slight edge when really really pushed (Sadeas.) Oh, and adding chasmfiend references to the list of things to do! 17th shard = full time job All this Bad Adolin evidence!! Ahhhhh, conflicted! I agree with this... goes in line with my(/our) thinking that he is in captivity/pupating for the majority of the books except those brief uncaged moments... Also love this... the languishing captive whitespine who can't show his true nature so he just become... bland. Very in line with his (lack of) character development.

I hadn't considered it pre-the Wit advice, but will see what I can find. I'm definitely going to it for the second half of OB, and I'l post it here I always associated Adolin with whitespines, given his WoR chapter called Whitespine Uncaged when he starts the 4v1 duel. A brief look at this just where I think it could be of reference though as I do a search I'm less certain about the Adolin symbolism. Or more certain that Adolin will go dark if I believe the symbolism I took a stab at interpreting what these could mean.... WoK Ch 39 Burned Into Her: Shallan notes scholars like to study "big, dynamic animals, like greatshells or whitespines" though she is interested in the shalebark/cremling symbiosis. Uh, this is easy, Shallan is not that into whitespines. WoR Ch 20 Coldness of Clarity: Shallan thinks the bandits see her as a mink wandering into the whitespine's den. Shallan is soon to be the mink wandering into the Kholin court. Ch 43 The Ghostbloods: Shallan likens visiting the Ghostbloods to walking into a whitespine's den. This is like going to the Kholin court for the first time. In both she is wearing Lightwoven disguises too. Ch 55 The Rules of the Game: Adolin compares Shallan hugging Wit to her hugging a whitespine. This is when they visit the captive whitespine and Shallan notes to Kaladin that whitespines don't do well in captivity. Shallan hugs Wit, just like Shallan hugs Adolin the whitespine. Adolin doesn't do well in captivity. (Dark Adolin....) Ch 56 Whitespine Uncaged: "Adolin attacked. He lept forward, sweeping with a barrage of strikes at Relis. Elit jumped away to curse as he did so. They were like men with spears prodding at a whitespine. And this whitespine was not yet caged." Obvious tying Adolin to whitespine Ch 64 Treasures: Kaladin imagines himself caged like the whitespine in the menagerie. Adolin is also in jail with Kaladin Ch 70 From a Nightmare: Shallan likens the chasm fiend to a whitespine as it exudes power, only more enormous and alien. I could way far out here about how Kaladin is the chasm fiend (which they see together) and Adolin is the whitespine (which those two see together) and both are powerful and Kaladin is more enormous and alien. This might be stretching it even for me But more seriously, Adolin does exude power. Ch The Four: Sadeas tells Adolin he and Dalinar are two whitespines circling each other ("it's me or him") right before Adolin kills him. Adolin is actually the whitespine who made the kill. OB Ch 22 The Darkness Within: Ialai mentions whitespine behavior in reference to who killed Sadeas as someone who would be lurking nearby. Shallan notes this means "Why have you returned to the scene of the kill, Kholin?" This was when I really linked whitespine and Adolin since it was done explicitly again. Obviously Adolin is the one who killed Sadeas so this is him. He is actually lurking nearby. Ch 63 Within the Mirror: Shallan notes cities are not civilized places, no more than a whitespine was domesticated just because a collar is around its neck. More Adolin going dark symbolism Ch 83 Crimson to Break: Adolin compares going into Kholinar palace with its spearman like a whitespine's den. Well, he is taking back his own den... Let me know what you think. There are two extremely obvious places where Adolin is overtly referenced as a whitespine, so that does say to me this is something intentional. However, I don't know how much I believe it unless Adolin is going to go dark... I apologize for double-posting but I don't know how to do quotes from posts of multiple pages... @Ookla the Grey can you combine me? (And feel free to educate me!) I'm so torn. I read Adolin as sweetness and light, a non-dramatic person in this story who won't go dark. But stuff like this, and my possibly quite tenuous whitespine symbolism investigation, leave me thinking that there is something to this... This is a pretty big about face from what we're slapped in the face with so many times - one must take responsibility for one's actions... Do not have my mind made up here. I don't have many opinions in the Shallan baby fight (maybe just because I feel like it's so unlikely? I feel this way about the Syladin stuff too), but I wanted to point out that so far Brandon hasn't gone this route. Vin and Elend marry end of WoA, there's a one-year time skip and then all of HoA and nary a mention of possible baby or a baby made. That's two years of sex! Same for Breeze and Allariane (who Brandon notes in annotations are married in spirit since Scadrial at that time didn't really have marriage - neatly avoiding premarital sex, lol), and we've got three years of sex going on there. It may be a natural progression IRL, but so far (that I've read) it doesn't seem to be something Brandon has explored or necessarily even sees as the assumed next step after marriage.

No no you misunderstood what I was saying. I’m saying shippers can make reality-based arguments for why they think Shalladin is better than Shadolin even absent the foreshadowing. So there’s reality-based arguments on both sides (ie it’s not all reality vs all literary components.) I’ll revise the post. ETA: Hopefully how I edited conveys this point better. I would love that in-depth analysis! I mean what else will you do for the next three years....

This is a great point. Talking about the Brandon video, he mentions how 3/4 of the True Blood readership was unhappy with the end of the romantic story (there were four love interests there apparently), and that’s something you want to avoid. Given that I think you totally nailed this on the head, how is he working to avoid this here? How can this ever be reconciled? (I guess only by finding a realistic way to break up Adolin and Shallan. Because you’re never going to satisfy us Shalladin crew if you just drop the literary elements completely, so you have to explore that romance in a legimate way which we didn’t get in OB. But I’m not sure the Shadolin shippers will ever be happy with a break up. I guess Adolin dying ) My other comment on this is that I do think many readers can find valid, real-world reasons for not supporting the Shadolin ship; a reader could make a reality-based arguments that Kaladin is genuinely the better match for Shallan, regardless of the foreshadowing. Examples of such reasons I’ve seen mentioned include: Adolin and Shallan do not seem to connect on a deep level; Shallan doesn’t open up to Adolin (at least about her big secrets); Adolin is over protective (there are even these moments in OB towards the end one could point to; Ch 110, A Million Stars, “Shallan put her freehand on the frame of the open cargo door and leaned out over the churning depths. Adolin tried to to tug her back, but she remained in place.”), etc. (Cue @SLNC who can probably cite a hundred more.) There’s been a ton of arguing over this, and I think it’s very personal and thus highly subjective. But I haven’t seen any foreshadowing or symbolism or any of the literary elements supporting Shadolin. (I would love for someone to point them out to me if they exist. I think they are necessary to fully sell even an obvious storyline btw!) If there was none of this for either, I think we would still have this raging debate because readers want different things from a romance, but on one side we have a bunch of reality-based arguments and no support in the extra-literary elements (just made up that term...) and on the other we still have a bunch of reality-based arguments but also plenty of extra-literary elements. So I don’t think it’s solely a certain way of reading fiction versus the other. I think the purest shippers are reading it the same way and debating which ship is best, and then the kicker (which gets you and me on board!) are those who see the literary elements as dispositive.

This... is really convincing me. I really, really like what I bolded, because that helps bridge the contentiousness between the two ships. (I mean, people will be devastated Adolin died, I will be devastated Adolin died, but it won't be evil Shallan who left poor Adolin or that Shallan's relationship with Adolin was fake.) I still don't personally love it, but I think you make a very convincing case. The point that Shallan has to be pushed to confront truths is especially a very good one. For me (not that this matters to literally anyone else), this is also supported because a friend whose reading I trust, and who is not at all engrossed in the fandom, just finished the book and her reaction on this was (paraphrased): triangle was unconvincing, it's not over, I feel bad for Adolin because his heart is going to be broken, I bet he just dies, unlikely there's divorce in Vorinism anyway.

Jasnah has all of her online scholar friends!!!!