Bigmikey357

Unless you're going with the brute force aluminum trumps all solution the problem becomes identification of Order. On Scadrial it's easy. See someone pushing off a coin to fly? Coinshot. Identification is easy so a practiced hazekiller knows the appropriate countermeasures to use. On Roshar you see a guy glowing and flying, is he going to glue you to the ground or set it on fire? Or maybe it's simpler. I forget, when someone is Surgebinding do they glow in their Order's color or is it a general white light? If it's colored that takes a little less effort, though some of those colors are close (garnet vs ruby). I really think for Ranette to be effective she must do 2 things. One, attract a spren so that she can get a true feel for the magic and 2, incorporate fabrial tech into her designs. Not sure gunpowder's volatility in a super oxygenated world would do more than blow up the wielder. Maybe she'd try to fight fire with fire so to speak, making fabrial guns that mimic surges. How disconcerting would it be if a known Edgedancer carries around a weapon that does Division? She can look an awful lot like a Releaser and deal someone a nasty surprise. Or conversely said Edgedancer can go around impersonating said Dustbringer for clandestine reasons. Either way, introducing a wildcard element into the known capabilities of the Radiants has got to spell an advantage right?

What about order-specific guns?

There's a post on here that grew to massive proportions in a relatively short time, Jasnah v. Kaladin. It basically devolved (or evolved depending) into a conversation of which character could checkmate the other and how. Ranette, for those who don't remember, is Wax's favorite gunsmith in Mistborn Era 2. The character as a whole is amazing, but the attribute that's germane for this particular discussion is designing weapons to both take advantage of Wax's abilities and negate powered opponent's advantages. The hazekiller round series. I believe that there will be a hazekiller division focusing on Surgebinders on Roshar at some point. Ranette would be a great resource in this. Imagine her and Navani brainstorming on weapons design. Awesomesauce. So if this meeting were to happen in an alternate Cosmere timeline and Ranette was brought up to speed on Surgebinder abilities, what kind of weapons do you think she'd craft? And bonus question, what sort of spren would she draw?

I've obviously been thinking a lot about the Cosmere and all the stories told in the shared universe. And a thought occurred to me out of the blue. Our 16 aspects of Adonalasium are, as we get to know the people behind the powers, pretty unimpressive to me. Sazed is wishy-washy, Rayse is petty, Leras made himself an idiot, Ati was overdramatic in the most moustache-twirling sense, Edgli is super overconfident, Tanavast was paranoid and who the hell knows what Culti's deal is. I guess the takeaway is that they are people, or once were people. The problem, if you can call it that, is that some of our characters have more gravitas than the Gods themselves. No theory attached to this thought blurb, just spilling. Any thoughts on this?

Here's another one. Tonk Fah - Sucker for Pain

I was listening to Play with Fire by Sam Tinnesz and it occurred to me that that would be a perfect theme song for the Dustbringers/Releasers. I know Kaladin already has an album dedicated to him, likely serving as the official theme music of the Windrunners. So I decided to share and ask for opinions of good pairings of music and character/group. I placed the post here because, hey, why limit this to SA? Let's everyone join in.

Another indicator are Horneater teeth, suited to eat shells and of course their ability to see more into the CR than normal unpowered humans.

Yes. She was standing next to the wall. She wasn't fighting ten or twenty feet away from the wall and casted stairs from where she was to secure an escape route or something. It's fair to postulate that the farther she is from the object or area she wants to change the more effort it takes. Whether that's slowing the speed of casting or requiring more Stormlight or needing a gem reserve to work it, I know the sample size is crappy but there's something going on with her and distance Soulcasting and I hope we get more examples in SA4. That's the reason I look at it in terms of percentages. It's a predictive tool that seeks to factor out the lucky bounces, the freak occurances ect. It's how Vegas would lay odds if this battle were taking place at the MGM. Of course none of our data points have huge sample sizes so the prediction has a sizable margin of error but we have enough knowledge of the world, the powers of our combatants, and the potential of what a Full Radiant would look to make a rough estimate. If all your looking at is their power set you are getting a less complete picture. That I and others can see a scenario that Jasnah loses doesn't make them wrong, or you wrong if you disagree. My point was to try and bring a more scientific evaluation to the discussion. I feel it has its place even in a subjective discussion such as this.

I put the averages in for a simple reason, because battles aren't solely about skills, that there are unpredictable elements even in a contest with a clear favorite. Like in sports, the best team doesn't always win the championship. I'm also looking at their skill sets and predicting some growth for both characters based on our knowledge of the character, not just their powers. Therefore Jasnah's pragmatism and coolness under fire factor in as much as Kaladin's will to improve, fighting experience and improvisation. They both have room to grow; neither one is a 5 Ideal Radiant. I thus think it's fair to do some projecting. That's why I did not object to Jasnah's use of Aluminum as a possible game-changer. It's no fun pitting them against each other as they stand right now because she likely has Plate and has a higher degree of control of her Surges because she's further along in her progression than he is. At this point in the narrative Kaladin has about a 1% chance. I thought we already established that Rocks on Roshar should not be difficult to procure, nor take Stormlight to acquire if he has both Plate and Blade. Punch the ground, pick up rock, throw, repeat. It takes more time to procure a big boulder but fist-sized rocks are infinite in supply and there should be no danger in procurement if Kal is outside her range. Speaking of range, I have a theory about Jasnah's. I believe her Stormlight is more effective and faster the closer she casts from herself. Looking at the scene where she executes those criminals in the alley we learn 2 things. One, that she can cast things she isn't touching. Two, that distance casting isn't instantaneous. She takes a breath, seems to gather her focus, then a spark shoots out from either hand, makes contact with the running men, and they visibly change instead of flash and it's done like the 2 she touches. I have never maintained that distance casting is as simple as direct contact, though as a full Radiant it may be faster for her to do so. You're probably right that it's best to maybe put a pin in this. I'll respond if you choose because I'm enjoying the mental exercise, but I respect the fact that you look at this battle differently than I do.

Just to be clear, I was being fair to both parties in regards to what we've observed them doing so far. If you feel that I've loaded Kaladin down with all sorts of advantages while not taking into account Jasnah's awesomeness, I would ask that you review my posts on the subject again and not confuse me with other posters. If afterwards you still feel that way then its about agreement to disagree. Note however that even if your interpretation of my words still leads you to think I've been unfair to Jasnah I still believe she wins more than she loses given what we know of her capabilities and giving each party a level boost and an equal amount of Stormlight. My frustration lies in the idea that you think my opinions run in the opposite direction than they do. I don't think Kaladin would be the hands down winner in a contest between the two. Run the battle in a simulator 100 times and Kaladin maybe wins 30. The numbers for a Windrunner not named Kaladin Stormblessed are considerably worse facing Jasnah. Teft maybe wins 10 of those matches, I'd be surprised if Lopen won 5. By extension, Kaladin's numbers improve if he's fighting an Elsecaller not named Jasnah Kholin, closer to 50/50 but still losing more times than he wins. Probably a 60/40 split in favor of the Elsecaller due to the power set advantage the caster employs. As for the dome thing, I'll give that one more shot. Jasnah casts a dome. She can spy on Kaladin through the CR and thus has time to craft numerous strategies, sift through likely scenarios and act upon them. That's great and all but what stops Kaladin from just walking away? She's neutralized in her little dome, she cannot attack him unless he closes the distance. Depending on the mission, her holing up could count as a win for Kal. If Jasnah's mission is to kill Kaladin she's going to leave her place of safety in order to do him harm, has to draw him into her effective range. The dome is no good for that. Or he could sell out, use a goodly portion of his reserves to send a large attack from outside her range. Yes Jasnah can react to anything he can do from outside her range with a high degree of success. That's not the point. The point is that moves like the dome are defensive. She must react, she has given up the initiative, she's letting Kaladin dictate the engagement. I'm not sure Jasnah would want to take an action like that against an opponent with as much battle experience as Kal. Of course the calculations are different depending on her range. If her max range is 10 feet or so she ain't putting up a dome. If it's out to the size of a football field the strategy is a bit more palatable because she can cast an entire obstacle course and force him to burn through a prohibitive amount of fuel. If she can do so to the horizon then nobody beats her except another Elsecaller. Anyway, Kal isn't winning at all unless he can make Jasnah run dry by keeping her on the defensive. Jasnah will know this and her strategy will therefore be to get him to close the range while she still has enough of her stockpile to cast. If she can somehow conceal her range then that's another plus. Why does everyone assume that Kaladin will be stupid enough to voluntarily close with Jasnah being full of Stormlight? Most of the strategic gambits I've seen proposed for Jasnah to win require Kaladin to be stupid, inexperienced in battle or both. Do we assume that Jasnah knows the full capacity of a full Windrunner and Kaladin goes in unaware of his opponent?

I think her effective range cannot be more than 50 feet or so, likely much less. If it's as far as the eye can see then their has to be a mitigating factor, like the farther away from you that u cast the more Stormlight it takes or something. No evidence for this except for my personal observations of Brandon and how he approaches magic systems. He is interested in the limitations of magic. If casting is that OP then it makes it limitless and not fun as a consequence. Plus, we would have likely seen some indication that she can affect things from across a football field in Thalenah. Anyway I guess we'll get to see rather soon.

@Pathfinder Jasnah may be able to observe Kaladin while protected inside her rock dome, but by that same token Kaladin doesn't have to use Stormlight since she cannot harm him from within it. He can otoh toss a big boulder at her with a quadruple or more Lashing appied, enough to shatter whatever barriers she can put up. She either has to move or cast more and more thickness to her protection. At any rate she loses the initiative, negating her greatest strength against Kaladin. Now I believe I have asked this before but do you see any scenario where Kaladin can beat Jasnah? But I'll expand the question a bit. Is your belief due to Jasnah's exceptional prowess or simply the Elsecaller's power set? I think Kaladin is extraordinary as a Windrunner, able to incorporate his powers seamlessly with his previous spear training to make for an extremely dangerous opponent for anyone. Do you think he loses to random Elsecaller B 10 times out of 10? Or is it just that you believe Jasnah is just that good? People are more than their power set. If it were just about power sets Vin gets murdered by TLR before she can take 2 steps. I can't see Jasnah losing to any random Willshaper even if said Willshaper has the advantage in power set. You are inferring Jasnah's battle experience just as much as I'm inferring magic costs. You are seeing her emerging from the perpendicularity bedraggled and infer she's been in many battles. It doesn't have to be many battles or one huge foe. She could have fell down a steep slope. She didn't have much in the way of Stormlight left when she escaped into the CR. My assumption is just as valid as yours. There's no definitive proof for either theory. I'm sure you'll respond to this; you are a thoughtful poster. I'm probably going to let you have the last word on it too. It's obvious that we disagree on the evidence presented. This is subjective anyway. However it plays out I hold no hard feelings. And I hope to all heaven that it never happens since I don't wanna lose either character.

The difference in speed does not have to be great in order for it to matter in terms of combat. And although I acknowledge that Jasnah is an incredibly fast caster and has tons of experience with her Surges (well, one of them), she has yet to fight someone close to her equal. Thaylen City was awesome for her; she fought better than any so-called scholar would have a right to. But her opponents were battle-crazed unpowered humans and insane Fused. Kaladin's battle experience is more encompassing and he's fought though the entire spectrum, powered vs unpowered, equal strength, fighting against people more powerful, fighting while tired, fighting while drained of Stormlight, fighting multiple opponents. Jasnah wins most times but Kaladin can test her limits unlike any opponent she has ever faced. And I believe any battle between them will not be swift, will not be decided by one blow. Fatigue plays a factor. As far as Jasnah casting a dome around herself, that's nothing more than a delay tactic. She cannot attack him from beyond the dome. Plus, if she isn't going to move he can multilash a much larger object at her without worrying about her dodging. Or he could walk away and preserve his Stormlight. The only way I see that being effective is if sprung like a trap. Either she domes up as he's flying in, dazing him or she closes him within the cage with her to negate his mobility. Surprise is key. I've maintained that it costs more for Jasnah to cast than for Kaladin to lash due to logic. Redirecting the forces affecting an object takes less energy than using a force to change the physical properties of an object, especially in the Cosmere where one must overcome the initial Investiture of the given object. Take an object in null g. Lashing is like pushing an object at rest. Soulcasting is like pushing an object in motion. In order to go the way one wants one must first overcome the object's initial velocity. Just because someone is good at overcoming that initial velocity doesn't mean that it doesn't cost more energy to do so than it does to push something with no initial velocity. I agree that the Windrunner power set is ill-suited against an Elsecaller's. That's partially the reason why I'd pick Jasnah to beat Kaladin 70% of the time. The percentage would likely be higher in favor of the Elsecallers if random Windrunner A went up against random Elsecaller B given equal Oaths and possession of all Shards. It would certainly be higher if Jasnah were fighting Teft or Lopen. But Kaladin is a whole 'nother kettle of fish and I sincerely believe he gives her a run for her money. This is of course given the capabilities we've seen so far. Only Brandon knows what more they can do. As we see more the percentages could change quite a bit in either direction.

@Pathfinder I believe that you are misrepresenting what I'm saying to prove points. Surgebinding Speed: We've seen Jasnah soulcast and Kaladin perform Lashings. Jasnah has to have a conversation with the spren of objects she wants to change, as she was explaining to Shallan. Command air, persuade rock, ect. Kaladin? Touch and go. Which is faster? Muscle Memory: I referred to muscle memory in terms of his regular martial prowess. But as his sky battle with Szeth shows, his Surges and Syl's variable weaponry pair quite well with the skills he posesses already. Of course he has to practice Surgebinding, I never said he did not. He was naturally gifted with the spear too. That didn't negate his need to practice. Development of those abilities takes time and we've actually seen Kaladin take that time. Kaladin's Intelligence: While it's certainly true that being a doctor doesn't necessarily translate to knowledge of particle physics or whatever some of the other crazy feats some other posters postulate, it does establish a baseline intelligence not often found in common soldiers. I would argue that neither does writing treatises and keteks translate to Jasnah having the knowledge to soulcast plutonium for example. That's beside the point however. Intelligence informed by experience is my point. Kaladin has been honing his craft since he left Hearthstone. Jasnah has been doing research. Jasnah has better knowledge of her Surges but not much practice in fighting. To think Jasnah is just going to outsmart dumb ole Kaladin in his natural environment is maybe giving Jasnah more credit than is warranted. As far as any magical capabilities that I'm trying to grant Kaladin and not Jasnah, did you check out my scenario? I thought I represented them well in regards to the known capabilities of the combatants. The pressure manipulation thing comes from the scene where he redirects the Highstorm winds from the slave pens. Even with that I said that has limited utility against Jasnah except in a defensive capacity. I basically have Kaladin tossing a bunch of fastballs at Jasnah, plate assisted and adding a Lashing or 2 for extra oomph. Blunt impacts can crack Shardplate, Jasnah has to defend against it. Kaladin is more mobile, he can stay out of her range indefinitely as long as his Stormlight holds out. He only has to get in close to kill her, but the same goes for her. Where in all of that did I give either party an advantage outside the abilities they've displayed so far?

Yeah. Trickery. Not one on one in a set matchup. Mostly because Jasnah has Plate and Kaladin doesn't.

Just because Kaladin plays the dumb role in the script he's given, remember the boy's a doctor. He isn't dumb. She's only casting spark if Kaladin frees himself by cutting his prison open. I tend to set the parameters of their fight as being between 2 fully Idealized Radiants with both plate and blade. At this point in the narrative the only way Jasnah loses is by trickery.

Szeth fought against unpowered opponents who were still coming to grips with something that should not be possible according to their worldview. The world had largely forgotten about the abilities of Surgebinders; there's no equivalent of a hazekiller squad in Roshar at present. Jasnah will not have that problem. He gets within arm's reach of Jasnah and she blocks the hallway with one wall to stop his momentum, closes him in on all sides and casts the air inside the enclosure to oil, casts a spark to set the oil aflame if Kaladin cuts his way free with Syl. Stabs him with Ivory while he's distracted.

I'm honestly surprised at how long this conversation has been going, though I suppose it's fun to speculate on the combat capabilities of some of our favorite Radiants. Personally I think that they are close enough in their respective skills that a battle between them isn't clear cut even though Jasnah wins most scenarios in my mind. Karger brings up a good point about having too many options. When one can change anything into anything else things can become muddled in a combat situation. Jasnah does pretty well against the Fused but poorly against the assassination attempt. Mixed bag. Of course the same can be said regarding Kaladin. Well in the 4 v 1 duel, awesome against Szeth, not quite so well against Amaram in Yelig-Nar monster mode. So let's break down each character. Kaladin can use his Surges faster, not much faster than Jasnah but in combat fractions of a second count. Kaladin is more mobile. Kaladin isn't dumb, and though Jasnah may be objectively smarter, she has had far less time filtering her thoughts though the sieve of combat than Kaladin has. He can do things by instinct and muscle memory that Jasnah has to think about. Where Kaladin suffers has less to do with his battle prowess and more to do with the limitations of his Surges versus powered opponents. He must touch something to lash it and he cannot lash an opponent at all if they have Plate. He must manipulate the environment to hit Jasnah and all his impressive movement relies on Stormlight. His ace in the hole, pressure manipulation, has limited utility against someone who can escape in a blink, though he may be able to use it in a defensive role against flying debris (like aluminum flakes. Jasnah is a powerhouse, efficient in her Stormlight usage with range. She doesn't have to touch an object to effect its physical nature, though it would probably be prohibitive to try to cast a person in Plate, likely impossible without infinite Stormlight and an unconscious spren opponent. However anything else in her range can be changed to something advantageous to her, including the very air. She's only limited by her knowledge of material on that score, and the essences are quite sufficient for the creation of mayhem. Lastly, if things are going south too fast for her to handle she's got a built-in escape. Her disadvantage vs. Kaladin is that she's only using one Surge in battle to Kaladin's 2. Other disadvantages are that casting costs more to use on an instance to instance basis ( @Pathfinder likely disagrees with me on that point) and she doesn't have much combat experience. She has a lot of experience killing people I assume, and the mindset to be ruthless. That mindset counts for much; it's probably why she did so well at Thaylen City. But muscle memory counts for more. She does have a few go-to moves but she doesn't have the experience to instantly react to unexpected happenings in the heat of battle. Lastly, she's slow. She moves at a stately pace because she has to keep her mind on the next threat and cannot waste time navigating the landscape if she wants to be effective. I forsee a battle between them as Kaladin burning through Stormlight trying to play keep away and rock dodgeball. Jasnah dodges some objects tossed with the force of gravity behind them, casts others away, takes hits on her Shardplate the things she cannot dodge or cast away. In most instances Kal runs dry before Jasnah does and she entombs him before he can lay hands on her. In other instances he keeps her too occupied for offensive tactics and forces her to burn through all her reserves, either killing her when she runs dry or forcing her to flee into the CR. Kaladin has a greater or lesser degree of success depending on environment. For example, any environment that limits Kaladin's mobility will be an obvious disadvantage unless there are objects he can Lash towards Jasnah that would be difficult for her to dodge. In close quarters Jasnah has too many options for him to overcome.

The way the Cosmere works in regards to magic systems is that you take an intact soul, put a crack in it, and some flavor of Investiture spackles over said crack, adhering and becoming a part of the spirit web. In practical terms this means that any magic user has issues. The issues are more pronounced and more highlighted in SA but it's almost a given that any magic user in the Cosmere is somehow damaged to a greater or lesser degree. It reminds me of Jim Butcher's Cinder Spires series where all the magic users were insane, though there are differences both in severity and the causal chain. Amyway, I believe that's what we're observing.

Well besides the fact that Sazed became God and the rest of the crew were deified as well? Or that 2 metals replaced Atium and Lerasium (Scadrian Godmetals) on the Metallic Arts chart?

I think @Oltux72 and others are looking at results. The results of Kelsier's actions are objectively good. Even murdering nobles, while objectionable in the abstract, is serving to destabilize the ruling class thus making house wars more likely. Everything he did worked towards the destruction of TLR and the Final Empire. @Calderis is not arguing results but motivation. Methods. Could Kelsier have saved that plantation girl without murdering the entire household? Could he have destablized the Noble Houses without murdering them wholesale? Could he have given the Skaa hope without making himself a God in their eyes? It can be argued that he could have accomplished his part in the plan without all the destruction he left in his wake. But that wouldn't have served his ego, his thirst for revenge, his need for spectacle and showmanship. If Marsh was the Mistborn he would have certainly gone about things differently. I'm on board as saying that Kelsier is a good guy who used all the tactics bad guys use to accomplish his aims. So it's a good thing something made him responsible else he could have been so much worse than TLR, who went about his cruelty and oppession as if it were a 9 to 5 job only everyday is a Monday. I think people are kinda talking past each other at this point. If we're looking at results the of course Kelsier is a good guy. If we're looking at methods then maybe Kelsier isn't really good, just that the alternative is so much worse. But it probably shouldn't be a surprise that he turns villainous action to heroic goals. Before Mare died he wasn't at all interested in overthrowing the Final Empire, just getting rich and making fools of the Nobles that abused and spurned him and his big bro.

@Nymeros Ignore Hoid, Vasher, Vivienda, and Nightblood? Vas and Vivi maybe you could get away with, these people aren't even sporting their original names in the series. Hoid may or may not be covered since he appears in all the Cosmere novels, he could be a legal snarl either way. He has to be in there due to his role in mentoring Shallan, giving emotional support to Kaladin and trying to give hints of the greater struggle to Dalinar which will be super important later. But how do you ignore Nightblood? He's literally a Shardblade for a main character. Even if it's not named the characteristics of the sword cannot change. Another studio owns the rights to Warbreaker so they're gonna need to bargain. And if they're going to have to go for Nightblood they might as well push for Vash and Vivi too. To limit the scope I suppose you could cut the 17th Shard. Are we cutting Mraize too? How are we gonna explain the Ghostbloods when they come up? Although the organization is native to Roshar it's obvious that they do worldhopping. What happens when they start displaying stuff that could only come from another series, things that become plot relevant? You know what? Netflix or Hulu need to buy the rights to all the Cosmere novels. Problem solved. Bam.

Sunday is reserved for Dragonsteel. Both the beginning of the Cosmere and set to be written last.

We all know that Silver is allomantically and feruchemically inert. It will not produce any effect, it won't burn and you cannot store attributes within it. But we know of a world where silver does have a magical effect. Threnody. It's a Shardworld inhabited by a broken Ambition. So say someone reformed Ambition and wanted to get into the Shardhunter game like Odium and Autonomy. If Ambition went to Scadrial and Invested there do we think that silver would become an allomantically active metal? We know that its Godmetel would be viable.

As far as I'm aware, the religious polygamy only went one way. One guy, multiple women. Writing a relationship with one girl and two men would be outside thr paradigm ascribed to Mormons. (I could be talking outta my butt at this point. If I'm offending anyone from the LDS community please let me know so that I can gain a better understanding). That being said, while I find the idea intriguing I'm not sure it's the story Brandon wants to tell. I wouldn't hold out hope on seeing it come to fruition. YMMV of course.