Vortaan

I guess what I was getting at is that Zane is closest to acting like an Inquisitor out of all the spiked people we've seen. Spook, Vin, the Citizen, and Penrod all seemed a lot less bloodthirsty than Zane did.

You know... it's interesting that so far in the Cosmere, we haven't seen much life that isn't Shardicly influenced. I wonder if the recipient of the Letter might disagree with reassembling Adonalsium because it would limit the variety of life in the Cosmere. On a secondary note, I've always assumed that whom or whatever Hoid was writing too, it holds a Shard. With that in mind, it makes a lot of sense that the person would be opposed to Hoid's plan, since it could require a sacrifice of the holder's own personal power.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Zane got a double dose of Ruin influence by being crazy first, then being spiked. I can't remember where, but it's implied he put in his spike himself, so... yeah. Crazypants plus spike probably gives Ruin closer to Inquisitor control than just spiked.

Does anyone else find it interesting that aluminum has all these interesting physical qualities, but as a Feruchemical metal it stores what seems to me to be a primarily Spiritual attribute?

Not sure I agree with this. The Dor could just be how manifesting on Sel affects Shards, like the Metallic Arts is how a Shard on Scadrial will manifest itself. (Or some kind of metal-based magic system)

Couple things here. First, Ruin's goals for Zane and Spook were always different than those with Vin. Getting both of them to act more homicidally was in Ruin's direct benefit. For the same reason, Penrod's actions after being spiked are pretty in line with what Ruin needed him to do. The main thing that Ruin needed Vin for was freeing him, so throwing her into a bunch of situations where she could die was not particularly useful. However, having her run away from her friends and be distrustful of people really could help to serve Ruin's purposes. Hemalurgic spikes seem to have an increased effect the more of them you have. This has been expressed before by the tearing that the process puts into someone's Spirit Web makes them easier to influence. If you look at Spook and Vin, for example, neither of them are particularly bloodthirsty while spiked. Yes, they do brutally violent things, but not nearly with the same relish and enjoyment as a Zane or a Marsh. I would wager that the influence being spiked at all has on you is to lean you towards more destructive means of conflict resolution, rather than more conservation based means. As for Ruin taking absolute control of anyone who's not a Hemalurgic creation, not so far. I doubt he'd be able to, and honestly he wasn't even able to take "complete" control of Marsh. There was still that resting part of him that was... well, him.

I find this hard to agree with, simply because the whole 16 clue falls apart if there are 18 metals that you can have Mistings for. I don't disagree that Mistborn could probably have still burned cadmium/bendalloy, but I really think that bendalloy/cadmium Mistings couldn't have existed without throwing a huge wrench in the leaving a clue aspect that Leras was trying to accomplish. I don't know if they were exactly Allomantically inert, but could they maybe have acted like bad alloys? Still burnable, but still able to help along the 16 metals clue? I dispute your disputation... unless you have a pretty good theory about why the Ministry's method of finding atium Mistings to kill for Inquisitor spikes works. Personally I think there are more than one uses for atium and the use we've seen from all Allomancers so far is just the body's instinctive use of it, and is in fact limited to a specific sDNA. I imagine there is a more generalized use that does not have the same effect. I don't disagree, but this seems like a point in favor of him swapping the metals out entirely. If he couldn't know that people wouldn't discover bendalloy.cadmium, then it makes sense to take them and the other atium-alloys out of the mix until post-Ruin. Otherwise, I agree, things get a little wonky and the whole 16 clue falls apart. I wonder though if Leras foresaw Mistborn? I don't think they could be blocked from burning the different alloys or metals, and I wonder if not anticipating them could have ruined his whole plan.

How does that quote canonize that the mists didn't snap any Nicrosil/Chromium Allomancers? It still leaves a giant gap in the table, with two Enhancement metals missing. You're stating quite a bit as fact that I think is probably your opinion. For example, the mists had to have been programmed with their Snapping ideas prior to the Ascension, since Leras was already reduced to the mist spirit at that time. So for at least 2000 years, atium/malatium was probably on the table for mist snapping instead of cadmium/bendalloy. The 16% is the important number, but remember that Rashek killed all technological progress in the Final Empire. If he hadn't, it is extremely conceivable that nicrosil, chromium, bendalloy, and cadmium could have been discovered and in regular use. If cadmium/bendalloy was usable by Mistings, it really would have killed the whole 16 metals clue, don't you think? I also disagree with your atium not being part of the table conclusion. How else do you explain that atium's Allomantic effects are only available so far to Seers and Mistborn? A perfect example of this is how they found people to kill for atium spikes for the Inquisitors. Atium was given to large groups of nobles in small amounts in their wine, and then a disturbance was created. Whomever burned it instinctively was a Seer. This method doesn't seem like it would work if atium could be used Allomantically by anyone.

I'm curious why you keep bringing up Nicrosil/Chromium. We know from Yomen's speech that some people at least suspected the existence of 16 Allomantic metals. The Lord Rule basically suppressed common knowledge of the Enhancement metals, period, but as soon as Yomen is given knowledge of aluminum, he pretty much figure out there have to be four groups of four. The mists Snapped 16% of the population, so they probably Snapped Nicrosil/Chromium mistings, the metals just weren't discovered. By contrast, the mists were probably Snapping atium/malatium mistings to fit into the 16%. As for the cadmium/bendalloy swap... Leras' whole "leaving 16 metals as a sign to his followers" plan falls apart if you can burn 18 metals. Considering how far sighted he was in other regards, I really don't think he would have left this to chance.

Well, Vin's sister gives us a clue to this, I think. Unless she Snapped when she was being born, she was an unSnapped Seeker, and the spike took that ability from her. If she had instead just been an unSnapped Misting, I think it would have been a bit harder to get Vin's mother to hit the exact right point to steal the exact right power.

Hence the comment about one Misting with an interest in metallurgy. It just seems like a possible loose end. Honestly, I'm not even sure that it makes sense for Mistborn to be able to burn bendalloy/cadmium pre-Harmony, or else why doesn't Rashek ever do it? Is the technology for bendalloy that far out his reach?

Pretty much what Kurk said. At the very least, Leras made it so the mists wouldn't snap Cadmium/Bendalloy mistings. It also seems likely, to me at least, that Cadmium/Bendalloy mistings couldn't snap normally either. Just one with an interest in metallurgy could have ruined Leras' whole plan. Hrm. I wonder what Seers would have become if Leras hadn't changed that aspect of the mists. Sliders?

No, I'd buy that, because they could have stolen the power they wanted but never found a good bind point for it beyond the Inquisitor ones.

Weighing in finally on the topic an offhand comment of mine prompted.. swapping out metals and changing Snapping seem like rather large adjustments to the system to me. No, I don't think Shards can change the framework, but throwing different paint on the walls certainly changes the room, at least from the inside. Clumsy analogy, but that's pretty much how I see it. Second note: we don't know that Sazed didn't change Hemalurgy at all. We have zero knowledge of how Hemalurgy works after he became Harmony. Maybe taking powers is less harmful now. Maybe it's not. We just don't have any knowledge about it. Third note: I wonder if anyone ever Snapped because they were getting spiked? What would that do to the spike? Like let's say you are making a kandra Blessing and someone Snaps during it... does the spike steal the greater power, or the bit of Preservation?

Drawing a parallel to Scadrial, both Shards manifest through metal because that's a consequence of being tied to Scadrial. It stands to reason that every magic system on Roshar has either gemstones or Stormlight in common. I'd say spren, but their complete absence in Shinovar leads me to believe that they might not be the common factor we're looking for.

We've gone rather far from the topic of this thread, haven't we? I wasn't actually talking about color, although I think that Alendi's perceptions of the mist spirit were certainly influenced by Ruin. This could extend to color, although why Ruin wouldn't pull a similar trick on Vin is up to debate. Maybe because Vin was overall a more fragile personality than Alendi? I also would imagine that Alendi would not use the term mist to describe something he sees that is made of smoke, and he does make the mist analogy as well. However, let's assume that you're right for a minute. It was Ati, not Leras, that stabs Fedik. It seems like a pretty... bad move. Alendi was Ruin's handpicked candidate to free him. Why would he alter that plan? Getting a Hero, with Hemalurgic bronze that lets you influence him/her to the Well, but is not so warped by Hemalurgy that they can't remove the spike, at the interval... that's got to be tough enough. Why start wiping out companions on the way? If you are going to wipe out companions, why not Rashek, the giant glaring threat to your chosen one? Assuming that it was a Hemalurgic theft, where was the metal? What happened to it afterwards and why isn't it mentioned? A figure of mist dropping a material knife seems like a big enough deal that it would be mentioned by Alendi afterwards. I understand the thought that there is a discrepancy, but what was left of Leras doesn't seem to have a great grasp of what to do to stop someone from using the Well incorrectly. More to the point I guess, Leras obviously learned from his previous mistake, just not well enough. His plan could have been to wound Fedik and get Alendi to turn back, not the same plan he had with Elend. In fact this could have been the exact reason he stabbed Elend with a mortal wound. This time, the companion is wounded mortally at the moment of crisis. If not for Sazed's advice, I think it actually would have worked. Of course, at that point Odium probably rolls in and starts messing with people, but still... the plan was decent.

I don't doubt that they can effect the system itself, we obviously see Leras and Sazed monkey around with Allomancy. I just wonder if maybe that's all they can do, change a few of the base rules. I agree that outside of a weird push/pull situation, Shards should be able to directly interact with the world ala Old Magic or Herald choosing... but I suppose that still brings up the question of what an Honor-only magic system would look like on Roshar? So... we'd have to assume it uses either gemstones or Stormlight, is probably more intention-aligned then genetic, and would probably revolve around binding things, not necessarily physical things.

It's actually interesting that Ruin had to bend his Intent as well to achieve the bargain. Or did he, really? By creating something, which is definitely not Ruining it, he set in place a long-term plan to ruin everything. Hrm. I wonder how far Ruin could stretch his Intent considering his end game? Thought we had WoB that Leras made the Pits, not Rashek. Also, there was no "dark" Mist Spirit. It was all Leras, all the time. He stabbed Fedik for the same reason he stabbed Elend, with... pretty much the same lackluster results.

I agree with the last part. I think that part of the bargain about making humanity was to create something that had direct ties to both Shards. I'm actually curious if someone from, for example Roshar, would have had as easy a time picking up both Shards as Sazed did.

The problem I have here is that I don't think Shards choose their magic systems, I think it's just a natural consequence of Shardic presence. So you get your Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy from two Shards existing on the same world and the natural interactions between the world and the Shards. So taking that same example to Roshar, there should be an Honor magic, a Cultivation magic, and an Odium magic. There should also be magics that are combinations of all three, or any two of the three. So that's... what, 7 magic systems total?

... Hrm. Alright, I'll bite. What can Heralds do? Keep in mind that we've seen at least one who didn't seem to have any special powers (Baxil's Mistress)

Actually the question that enters my mind is what is Honor's specific magic? We've got Voidbinding, Surgebinding, and the Old Magic... and no hint of an Honor-based system. Any thoughts?

I don't know that I agree. The Shin warriors could be very skilled in unarmed combat or unconventional weapons. It's probably fair to assume that a Stone Shaman has access to some form of magic. It seems as though on Roshar, people are so unused to magical effects that it lends those with powers larger advantages than it would, say an Elantran or Mistborn. I wonder if Szeth is really just counting on the fact that if he dies, it will likely be because he was taken by surprise, and that the Stone Shamans would be a bit more aware of that fact.

I don't think this is true across the board. Creation of matter has to align with a Shard's Intent for it to happen. For example, I think Ruin was incapable of ever creating anything. I'd wager that most other Shards would have less of a problem, although some might kind of back door it by manipulating matter that is already there rather than creating new matter from nothing. In particular, I doubt Cultivation can make anything from nothing, she probably has to have some kind of starting point.

It might be literally true in that when the Shardic power is removed, the body recoalses. Actually, considering how both Ati and Leras appeared, that doesn't seem to be out of the realm of possibility.