WhiteLeeopard

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The reason I call Moash a 180 is because he had doubts and regrets over what happened with Kaladin. He made he hated where he'd ended up and he blamed himself. He had fully intended to fight back against the Fused... And then he saw that a small group of people resisting had put a lighteyes in charge, most likely out of a desire for familiarity, he decided that all of humanity, darkeyes and lighteyes alike were irredeemable? When he'd just been following Graves? It was too sudden a mental shift. 

Amaram bothers me too, but that's more a matter of showing instead of telling. 

Amaram was a zealot. When the faith of a zealot breaks it shatters hard. If we had seen his reaction to reading about the vision of the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact, that would have been enough for me, but being told about it after the fact bothers me. 

Both are good points. Maybe Amaram just needed more page time. Moash...yeah no, Moash was doomed to the dark side. I'm not really sure he was planning to fight against the Fused. Even before he saw the lighteyes put in charge what did he enjoy the most? Seeing a lighteyes carrying water (pettiness, revenge, hatred). He wandered around the camp miffed he was a slave instead of been questioned (he wanted to be important/have attention/not be forgotten). I just think he wanted always to walk the mentally easier path. He didn't shy from physical labor, but he just refused to ever tread mentally complex ideas. He just wanted the world to be white and black.

6 hours ago, IronBars said:

Its not enough to say the words, you have to mean them, we see this will kaladin and the 4th ideal he couldnt speak the 4th ideal because he couldnt really mean it.

Shallen should of been the same with her 4th ideal/truth, to say it you have to embrace it, mean it, live it etc, she did the opposite so she either shouldnt be on the 4th ideal stage or she can lie and advance through the ideals that way.

Thats how i see it, if thats not the case then was no need for her to say the 4th ideal/truth atal......

The way I see it, Shallan said the 4th ideal before she was ready because it was either say it or all the alethi army died. I think when a KR is close enough to their next ideal but not quite ready they can say it, but they can have a bad backlash from an Oath said before they are ready for it. I think Kaladin could have said the 4th ideal, because he knew the words, it was just very hard for him as he wasn't quite ready. If Dalinar hadn't made the perpendicularity then Kaladin would have likely said the 4th Oath, saved the day, then been a mess for a few months as he came to terms with having said an Ideal a bit too early. 

I understand why Shallan regressed, but I still hated it. Shallan was so boring for me, even more than in TWoK. I'll probably skip her chapters on re-reads same as I do in WoK and first part of WoR. It was interesting when she spoke with Hoid, but the rest of her was yawn-worthy.

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

 My only issues with OB are some pacing problems. It's not Brandon's greatest ever, but the characters progress naturally other than Moash's abrupt 180.

Moash wasn't a 180. You can dessert, you can betray your country, you can lie, cheat, steal, but if you betray your friends you are rotten to the core and there is nothing that can fix you. It was obvious from the end of WoR he'd walk the most vile path imaginable.

Main character that was tossed to the wind was Amaram. Teft also caught me by surprise. Nale's reasoning still seems bogus for me. I'm a bit surprised Szeth swore to Dalinar and not Kaladin, as Kaladin made more sense simply because he is a Windrunner, and Szeth shouldn't know much of Dalinar. Those were my main surprises that I wouldn't have predicted characterwise based on their personality and past actions.

1 hour ago, evanna said:

Wow, I've looked through the whole thread and I haven't seen one of my favorite funny moment mentioned yet  Or maybe I'm having a cheesy sense of humor, I don't know xD

I definitely died here, I even had to stop reading for a few minutes to calm down:

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His life just kept getting stranger. He tried - unsuccessfully - to banish the image of lying in bed with a woman, Syl sitting on the headboard and shouting out encouragement and advice...
"Lord Radiant?" the citylord asked from inside the front room of the small home. "Are you well?"
"Painful memory", Kaladin said. 

This is hilarious, I can literally see the horror on Kal's face anytime I read it. And with his ordinary scowl, there's no wonder a citylord got a little concerned about his well-being

And since I love Pattern, this one really got me as well:

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"He came at me", Adolin said, "in the training rooms, screaming that you'd found the killer. Said that if I didn't come, you'd probably - and I quote - 'go do something stupid without letting me watch.' "
Pattern hummed. "Stupidity. Very interesting."

And I absolutely fell in love with Szeth and Lift interactions:

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"That's okay. Your weird face is burden enough for one man".
"Your words are wise", he said, nodding.

 

Thing is, most of the first pages of this thread were made by people that had been dissecting the first part of the book in the weekly releases we got before OB. Since we got 3 chapters every Tuesday we looked even into the color of the clothes each person was wearing, so we had already gotten out our laughs and memes from the first 2 moments you mention. I absolutely recommend going to the meme page of OB, as I wouldn't be surprised if Pattern is this book's mvp in memes made. I also loved that someone suggested the first issue you talk about was the real reason for the Recreance .

I just think his original spren was his current highspren. It could be there was no great conspiracy with the Shamans to name Szeth Truthless, they just wanted to protect themselves. Its even possible no-one knew he was a potential Surgebinder, and just assumed his abilities came from the Honorblade. His spren was obviously hurt on the intervening years, but bounced back once he swore the right Oaths. We've seen Syl revive unharmed once Kaladn spoke the next Oaths. Of course its been years with Szeth's spren comatose, so it may be why s/he is so shy and hasn't appeared to him yet.

Of course, its just as likely that Szeth bonded a new spren who is just terrified of manifesting, as a spren really needs to be brave to even bond a guy already bonded to an investiture eating/spren killing/always hungry sword.

Still...the idea of a third spren around Szeth seems too much, as we could easily be talking of 4-6 surges. Only thing I know is I'm sorry Szeth's book won't be next, as there are so many mysteries surrounding him. 

20 minutes ago, Carla Bridge Four said:

I do think there are spren in Shinovar.

At the end of OB, Szeth says something speaking to Nightblood he used to listen to a voice. Because he was approaching Radiance, wasn't he?

Thats the theory, but if there are spren in Shinovar they are probably very, very few. And there is no reason I can thnk of for that, as the only thing different in Shinovar that might affect spren are no highstorms.

Random question, do highstorms reach Aimia?

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

Yes, indeed. It is worthy of note, though, that his first spren couldn't have been a highspren, as they shared Nale's conviction that a Desolation could never happen as long as the other Orders didn't return and unwittingly tamper with the Oathpact and some additional measures that Nale claimed "_we_ took". "We" being Ishar and likely some of the other Heralds in addition to himself. As an aside, I believe that the "measures" were what allowed Taln to hold out for as long as he did (and may have caused/enhanced the insanity of the 9 defectors in the process) - because great hero or not, I don't think that his out-of-the ballpark endurance makes sense otherwise.

I think we should be careful of assuming spren all behave the same way because they are from one group. The way I see it each spren type has some characteristics, and tend to have similar views, but thats not a rule, as at the end of the day they are individuals with their own ideas. Syl was obviously a rebel, Timbre was also obviously unique in her decision to bond parsh instead of humans and even spren of her species were decided not to bond anyone. Spark is probably not the norm for Dustbringer spren in been a traitor, and I bet there is a highspren that could disagree with Nale's belief and go its own way.

On how Szeth knew he could swear the Third Oath, maybe it was a bit of arrogance. Szeth tends not to undersell, or oversell himself, he knew he was amazing with the Surges, and he knew he had followed the law to perfection for 7+ years. What more could a highspren want? I'm still not convinced the spren he has bonded isn't his original spren though.

P.s. I can totally imagine a scene either on book 4 or on the intervening year where Szeth is begging Nightblood not to be jaleous of his bond with the spren, and promising that using his normal Shardblade does not mean Szeth doesn't value and appreciate Nightblood .

6 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

And now for the real kicker: we don't know for certain that his first spren was necessarily a Highspren.  What if, for maximum tragedy and irony, the most famous Truthless in the world was on the path to become a Truthwatcher?

I somehow doubt this because the spren that he bonds on OB seemed to be really easy to bond with, so I assume its the same spren from long ago. Szeth is just perfect for the Skybreakers, as he has always followed laws to a psychotic level. It would be unusual at the very least if someone so obsessed with the rules could also be a good match for the Truthwatchers (or any other order, since Skybreakers don't mesh too well with any other order I've seen so far). Final point... Szeth already has access to too many powers. Nightblood, highspren he has bonded, we add a third spren to the mix and things get very very unlikely.

Your post was very nice .

5 hours ago, Unhinged said:

Oh my god I just realized I'm I'm a Unhinged Torturer of Heralds, I'm a voidbringer/Fused

 

And since you are Unhinged does that mean you are one of the creepy, dun sphere minds Fused?  

Reading The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance before Oathbringer came out:

After Oathbringer

3 minutes ago, Vissy said:

True that information could have been lost. How convenient that the single most important piece of information from that time became lost. Maybe you're right, that there was another conspiracy too - a conspiracy to suppress information about the Recreance. That would make sense to me, if someone could stand to gain from it. Skybreakers maybe? 

Actually, in my opinion the most important piece of information from that time was that spren bonding humans created KR, and that Shardblades were spren. We saw all over TWoK and WoR how scholars had been trying for centuries to make Sharblades. And yes, the truth was once commonly known and it was totally lost. The reason for the Recreance is the most important piece now, but for centuries there was another very important bit of knowledge scholars and countries wanted, and they got zip on it. In WoR we see people didn't even fully believe KR had powers, and just had those ideas as myths and stories. Its not even convenient that all knowledge of KR is so muddled/gone, when that is specifically the knowledg the Hierocracy wanted to bury.

1 minute ago, Vissy said:

I see your point, but that still leaves you the other half of the Nahel bond - the humans - to account for. Why didn't any of them talk?

Maybe they talked, but Roshar is a wonderful place for knowledge to become lost. Humans didn't even know Shardblades were spren once by the time TWoK starts, and that was surely common knowledge back at the Recreance. And they still don't know for sure how Plate works. I'm always happy to assume any past knowledge missing was destroyed in the chaos of the Recreance, then whipped out by the Hierocracy, then any tidbits left removed by Vorinism.
 

Its possible spren did not purposefully hide what they were planning, but rather that all (or most) of the unbonded spren were still children and too young to understand. If that were the case they wouldn't know why humans broke their Oaths and they wouldn't care, all they would see was all their parents were dead because of humans.

At the same time, I personally find the spren to be remarkably nice to KR and open to the idea of bonding humans again. Honorspren didn't come only because the Stormfather forbade it, but as soon as Syl bonded Kaladin many of them started bonding his squires or flitting around considering the bond at least. Captain Ico was not thrilled with the party in Shadesmar at first, but by the end of the trip he had mellowed a lot and was rather friendly with them. The spren they meet at customs that distracts the Voidspren while they run was almost crying in happiness that humans were bonding spren again. Even Notum started off angry and treating them like prisioners but was quite happy with Kaladin and company and willing to fight Voidspren for them while they ran at the end.

I think that there is more to the Recreance. Additionally, the Recreance fell flat for many here because we had already guessed humans were the invaders and parsh the original people of Roshar, so it wasn't as much a reveal as a confirmation. 

On the Adolin arc, I don't get why people keep saying it was messed up. I found it quite logical and fell within my expectations. Simply put, politics, conspiracies and social issues are for peace times when you got nothing more serious to worry about, so what spoon you eat with is a huge social topic. In times of war, people's priorities straighten out remarkably fast. As a real life example, before WWII britain was doing sincerely dumb things, when the war started they removed the politicians and put the country on the hands of a militant without a second thought.

On standard Roshar Sadeas was a great topic, and a man with a lot of influence. He got murdered while the Desolation started? He got the attention worthy of the topic, he was forgotten. The real consequences were Amaram was promoted, and Sadeas soldiers lost what little discipline they had so were easily taken over by Odium in Thaylen.

2 minutes ago, Storms! said:

Anyone else suspect that the spren that the stone shamans are taking orders from is actually a disguised Unmade, rather than some benevolent spren of H/C? It would just fit so well with the way these books have been going.

The god the heroes fight for is dead, Alethkar is fallen, the most powerful ally of the Coalition is a traitor, the Heralds are either broken or fighting for the enemy, oh and the protectors of the holy Honorblades are unknowingly working for the enemy too. Just another day on Roshar. As they say, "Another day another Desolation"

While I could see that happening, it would be hard to pull off. Keep in mind the Shin have (had) 9 Honorblades, and they had people training with them. They probably took ocassional trips to Shadesmar, and the Unmade deception would fall appart the moment the Shin Elsecaller Honorblade holder saw its real form. And Szeth seemed to say they worshipped spren in general, but no particular one. Although he wasn't too specific.

2 minutes ago, Stark said:

Then they are not doubting the Heralds by expecting another Desolation, but preparing a stockpile for the next assault that myth and legend says must take place, the one where they retake heaven.  Then it makes sense to keep an eye out for the return of the Herald's powers, and to be scared of what that implies for the world, an assault on heaven and potential return of the Voidbringers.  That would still be scary enough to maybe be used as justification by bad leaders to exile one of their own rather than face the truth.

Its entirely possible the Shin truly believe they won and there will be no more Desolations. Maybe they don't stockpile Shards (assuming this part of the theory is right) to use them on the next Desolation. However, maybe they stockpile Shards so no-one can use them to destroy as they are pacifistic (apparently) and want creation rather than destruction to occur at a large scale. Basically follow your theory without the final conclusion of preparing for the Desolation, and just take the Shards our of circulation.

Nice theory. 

I've always been very interested on the Shin, and off the top of my head the timeline works relatively well (give or take a few centuries).

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

I like this theory, something about it seemed to be nagging at me though, and it's the timing. I still think the theory is possible, but the invasion that Gavilar mentioned was lead by Shubreth-son-Malashaman or something close to that. Blades have been bonded long enough that most people have forgotten that the gemstones were added, but the name of this Shin conqueror is remembered. 

Thing is, people tend to remember the names of conquerors and generals while they forget the timing of scientific advances. If you asked someone "Ever heard of Julius Caesar?" They would talk for a while. Yet if you asked, "Do you know when mortar was invented?" They would stare at you blankly (usually). Advances are important and recorded by scholars and scientists, but that kind of information is more fragile than the legends and stories of emperors and kings of old. 

Also...there are so many purges of information in Roshar that their historical records are always very recent. Humans basically started off zero knowledge after Aharietam. Then the False Desolation, the Recreance, the Hierocracy and Vorinism and its million lies and errors taken as fact mean that their current knowledge of the past (even recent past) is beyond warped. 

15 hours ago, Ainurromen said:

Very interesting theory. There's just something I can't make sense of: if the Shin believe the shards and the Honorblades are so important and need to be protected and hidden, then why give one to a Truthless for everyone to use as they please? 

Szeth was a respected member of Shin society before becoming Truthless. Its likely they didn't want him to go out with he Honorblade, but their customs and society dictated he must keep the Honorblade all his life or something along those lines.

15 hours ago, Ainurromen said:

BTW: Ashyn -> Shin. They sound too similar for it to be a coincidence. I think Shinovar was named something different before the First Desolation. 

You may be on to something .

I suspected since long before OB that Szeth was a Stone Shaman, so the circumstances for him were very unique. 

4 hours ago, Morsk said:

I'm late replying to this, but I think it's forgiveness Odium can't understand, the same way Honor was unable to consider the Heralds breaking their oaths. And Odium is clever, and tries to work around this by making people do things so horrible they won't be forgiven. But if they're forgiven anyway, he's in uncharged uncharted territory where he can't see the future and his plans fall apart.

It also helps smooth over ridiculous things, like people being okay with Dalinar and Szeth's crimes. If forgiveness is the only way to fight Odium, I don't need as much suspension of disbelief here. (Dalinar forgiving Szeth, I can buy, because Dalinar is so desperate for forgiveness himself that he'd do desperate things. Everyone else, though...)

Thats a very good point. Mainly because its very hard Kaladin would forgive Szeth. Szeth killed several of Bridge 4, and we all know what Kaladin thinks of that. But if its the only way to survival...people will do incredible things to survive.

11 hours ago, Bort said:

This is why I think the Unmade are made out of part of the Heralds. Look at Jezrien and flashback Dalinar. The similarities between them are blatantly obvious, especially in the scene where they end up drinking together. And what is the most common thing they have there? They are lost without the touch of the Thrill. I think this is because Nergaoul was part of Jezrien until Jezrien first broke under Odium's tortures. I also think this is why Jezrien was killed when he was, because if Dalinar had united Jezrien and The Thrill, I think that would have healed him.

While it is a nice theory I am unconvinced. Mainly because Jezrien was saying he recognized an Unmade's touch on Dalinar, but wasn't sure which. Secondly because Jezrien seemed a lot more together on the prologue of TWoK. He was broken, but compared to his state as Ahu he was stunningly lucid, and by that point in the story the 9 known Unmade were already running around. 

I'm sure there are more reasons, but at a simple glance it looked like Jezrien was killed because he was the most vulnerable (and handy?) of the Heralds. The others are bonkers, but they still are dangerous, often stirring up a huge ruckus (Ishtar for example). Jezrien was the most lost of the heralds we had seen. Then again, I also suspect the fact that they had Jezrien's Honorblade passing around also influenced the decision to kill him, for some reason.

Thing is, when something like identity theft is going on there are clues, little details that make one go -wait a second-. With Ash absolutely everything is pointed at her been Shalash. Shalash is the Herald of beauty, and every single time Ash appears its pointed out she is so beautiful its almost impossible. When Jezrien dies, and Ash goes through one of the most shocking and experiences of her thousands of years she cried out father. And I think there is a Death Rattle saying Daughter of kings, scratching out her own eyes.

I guess Ash could be Chana, but it seems hard.

My main problem with Lyss as Chana is that she owned Szeth and gave him away. Seems...strange to sell him, or to buy him in the first place, as she should have recognized an Honorblade holder in a heartbeat.

2 hours ago, Willow said:

I thought Moelach was the last of the three mindless Unmade. They are mentioned in order in Mythica, and the book notes how Moelach and Nergaoul are similar. This epigraph also states that Moelach is more of a force:

Maybe. We haven't met Moelach so I wasn't sure what state would he be in. But if Re-shephir is considered sentient maybe the ideas of sentient or mindless Unmade should be slightly revised...

6 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

To be fair, in between those two things they had him killed.

I'm not 100% sure Gavilar meant the Parshendi when he said "Don't let them take it". He could have meant the GB, the other SoH, Sadeas, etc, etc.

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Did Kaladin, when he began breaking his oaths? IIRC Kaladin didn't have any problems with his powers until the bond was almost completely lost, which was also when Syl didn't reappear. Then he lost them abruptly. Syl showed signs of a deteriorating bond, true, but his powers worked just fine.

The 4v1 duel where he helped Adolin was shortly before that and there he used his powers.

Thats because Kaladin's bond was intact for the 4v1 duel. He made the promise to help Moash kill Elhokar just after the duel. His powers immediately started malfunctioning from there on and Syl regressed to mid TWoK state.

54 minutes ago, Carla Bridge Four said:

I think the Coalition will not last as it is, but that new Radiants from different places are going to change the views of people. Things are getting weird and won't last as they were. Renarin bound a corrupted spren, one of the Unmade may be not longer willing to side with Odium, Venli bound to a not-void spren... and Kaladin and his Windrunners have a Listener in their team.

Honestly I think the Coalition's biggest achievement so far is bringing Lift in with the rest of the cast. Its entirely possible the coalition's main purpose will be to bring the KR together. If they can refound the order fast enough while allowing free passing through each other's oathgates it may be enough for humanity to keep their edge.

Being perfectly fair, the coalition is not bad. They are having a lot of attacks both from outside (Odium, Unmade, Fused, Everstorm) and from within (Taravangian). It is somewhat alike to the problem in Kholinar. If Kholinar had been united and strong they could have held practically forever. However they had Unmade inside, Fused and humans that had switched sides all weakening the city from within. And as we saw in Kholinar the Coaltion needs to shore up their weakness inside or there is no way they will be able to suceed. 

Szeth and Nightblood are definetely a match made in the Tranquilline Halls, as I bet Szeth would be touched by the Valentine and think he has the best sword ever .