WhiteLeeopard

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

I am not sure why you think that acceptance and even celebration of homosexuality necessarily went hand-in-hand with being generally "socially progressive", or level of technology. Case in point, ancient Greece, with classical Athens as the most extreme example. The athenians were extraordinarily oppressive towards women, slaves and non-citizens, but were certainly very positive towards male homosexuality.

I agree, with your post. But Greece was particular in that they were very advanced in philosophy, politics, they were quite open minded about some areas of the world, and knew more of science than was known two thousand years later in the middle ages. Greece is basically an unusual case, which was as advanced as we are in some areas or even more advanced, but quite backwards in others. 

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Speaking of children, according to Sanderson, stormlight suffusing the ecology greatly reduces frequency of infectious diseases on Roshar, which believably explains why people exhibit the so-called "Western European Marriage Pattern", only with many more opportunities for  women than was the case iRL.

This is a very good point I hadn't realized. Part of why women in Europe had little role in politics and world affairs is they were often pregnant, and frequently died in childbirth. Nearly all the famous queens and noblewomen were either barren, unmarried, or uncapable of having more childrenas they were too young when they first fell pregnant. Considering in Roshar women have a much smaller chance of dying in childbirth it makes sense they have a bigger role. 

And I just realized how off topic I went .

9 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

You’ve used some extremely strong words to describe criticism of Adolin. To be honest, a lot of the words you used feel like an exaggeration and are the kinds of things that could lead to an escalation of tensions (sheer hatred, Adolin-bashing, spewing poison). To be clear, I know you weren’t directing that at me and this is the first time I have even posted in this thread, but this just illustrates why I haven’t. But I do want to be able to disagree with an Adolin theory or offer some criticism of his character without being accused of such things (or even just responded to as if I had bashed him).

Yes, I likely was too extreme. But honestly, my words weren't meant only for one side of the conflict here, but for both. When there is trouble, its seldom only one side's fault, but both are to blame. Your post was polite and clear, it was a good example of what in my opinion this topic should be debated as . But I find the ocassional extreme posts are swaying the discussions and atmosphere too much (and I'm not talking about the opinions talked about in those posts, as I don't have a problem with what people think, but rather how it is said or the regularity with which posts derive into personal assaults).

Adolin is a nice character, but will never become a protagonist. Yet I cannot help but feel the reason for the extreme opinions about Adolin in most of the shard come because of the arguments of the other side. Another example is the stick, some people loved the stick, others were indifferent to it. With time and the amount of posts regarding the stick some people loved the stick even more, while some hated it simply because of the regularity with which it was brought up.

Adolin is one of my favorite characters. I have also stopped participating or reading most threads about him or the love triangle, because even when they start out well and polite they inevitably turn into sheer hatred. It can be either hatred of Adolin, hatred of the situation, hatred of the writing. In general I call threads touching on Adolin that last longer than 3 pages "Adolin-bashing". I wish that everyone on the 17th Shard would either keep the darkness to limited threads or turn more polite. There are nice ways of giving your opinion without spewing poison. It is also quite indicative that both times in this forum in the past few months Chaos had to come in and give a warning to watch the tone it was due to Adolin related posts.

I dislike the negativity on principle. However, I also dislike that it means people like me that want to talk and read opinions of the topic in an amicable manner cannot do so without turning uncomfortable of the atmosphere.

3 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Isn't it also theorized that Obrodai is actually First of the Sun?

Probably, considering this WoB and simple deduction of which worlds we have seen. I highlighted the part relating to this at the end.

Quote

Yurisses [PENDING REVIEW]

Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, it is. That one is even closer associated with a Shard, the actual Investiture of the magic. Remember when I say Investiture, I mean matter, energy and magic. Sometimes the word Investiture just to the magic such as the Aviar and in that it is associated directly with one of the Shards...

Yurisses [PENDING REVIEW]

Which one?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium. *silence*

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Sorry, can you say that again?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

Is that one of the Aviar?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No that is the island.

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Island or islands?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The island but Patji is one of the islands.

Yurisses [PENDING REVIEW]

It's a Shard?!

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, big asterisk! But yes.

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

Shard as in equal or Shard as in a mass of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

As in one of the 16 Shards of Adonalsium is represented and involved in First of the Sun. In fact, one of the letters references First of the Sun in this *Indicates Oathbringer*

Sorry, I probably killed some theories on that one.

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Yup, but by doing that you've confirmed some as well so it's fine!

Footnote: The asterisk Brandon is referencing is that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy.
source

A secret can only be kept when one person knows it and they don't say it to a soul. As soon as you add 1 more person to the mix its not a secret any more, much less 3 more. Kaladin knew it, but he is so close lipped he was safe enough. Shallan's brothers don't seem the kind capable of having the nerves or self-control to not let it slip or tell it to someone to get out of a tough situation. Killing her father won't be too serious, considering he had just killed his wife and crippled his oldest living son. However it will show people that Shallan is not the wide-eyed innocent everyone took her for. 

53 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yes. Adolin, as well as anyone who only knows of the event through official channels, believes that Evi died due to the actions of the people who revolted. She was "kidnapped and killed" 

Was it "kidnapped and killed" or "killed by asassins"? In any case Adolin thinks Sadeas took advantage of Dalinar's injuries and grief to then burn Rathalas to the ground.

The mess which Shallans brothers will make in Urithiru is something I'm really looking forward to.

Shallan's brothers don't know all of her past (her mother), but I bet they will sooner rather than later spill ther guts on her killing her father. At the same time her brothers (specially Balat) may be resentful that she ended up married to a highprince, specially when added to her status as a KR. They all loved her, but when your little sister unexpectedly ends up one of the most important people in Roshar despite been 18 years old, some bitterness may flare up. Whatever happens in book 4 with Shallan's brothers I doubt it will be pleasant.

Balat will likely be a problem, and he may come to a head with the Kholins eventually if he continues on the path he was on. Perhaps the end of the world and coming to Urithiru stops him from what he was doing, but he always seemed a problem to me. Jushu will probably also cause issues with his gambling addiction. Wikim is the only one that might add something good, maybe befriending Renarin or even attracting a spren.

@Kaladins Did you see this thread?

I think its the most recent thread I saw touching on this topic, although I think the final consensus was that Kaladin was not gay. However you add new interesting points .

Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

I hope it doesn't happen personally. I really like Nale, and the entire shard knows how fond I am of Amaram. So I feel like one of my faves being Unmade-corrupted is enough. Personally, I'd be happy with putting Yelig-nar into a random singer, or maybe Mrall, or another more minor antagonist.

I think I was also one of the people to most vehemently loathe your SA favorites and explain why they were doomed . That been said Amaram's final move caught me by surprise and I wasn't fully convinced by it. I am also slightly fond of Nale. I keep having hope for him and half-expect him to make another about-turn eventually. 

Thats a neat idea. If that happens it will probably be Nale-Szeth, since Szeth is familiar with all surges, and has a slight teacher-pupil relationship with Nale. Plus Nightblood may be required for a full Yelig-Nar holder.

I just hope its not Moash who ends up holding it.

19 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

And Yelig-Nar grants all surges. He is a really bad system hack, you might say.

At the same time, maybe the fact it kills its holder after a matter of hours is a counter-balance to this. But I agree, Yelig-Nar was a bit over the top. Then again many Unmade were. Nergaul turning an entire platoon of troops against their own people? Ashertman turning the leaders and religious priests into the maximun orgy in Roshar (I don't actually know when that began, was it already happening in the interlude of WoR)? Sja-anat turning the spren of the Oathgate so it works how and when Odium wants?

My opinion is this poll is the best thread on the triangle I have seen. Pure statistics on opinons around the 17th Shard.

I loved it, and the weekly discussions were great. However, I think I would go insane if I had to read a Sanderavalanche in tiny weekly pieces. It can't be good for the mind to not be able to read those in one go... 

How can those books have more fans than SA? They are nice to read once and thats it, SA you can read 5x and still come back for more.

14 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

"He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!" -Death rattle. 

Hm, Tower and Crown is the Kholin glyph, Kaladin is the spear.  I could definitely buy this as hinting Kaladin marrying into the Kholin family and becoming High King.

I could almost interpret the spears on the chapter header image as being prongs on a symbolic crown.

Kaladin would loathe been High King, I doubt he would ever accept that. Not to mention he does not really have the experience to rule a country, or for diplomacy and politics. I don't see the second part happening. The first part of what you say and marrying into the Kholins to make that symbol, maybe.

• Why did Nale decide to side with the owners of the land now instead of in the past 8 thousand years? Or even on the past 4500 years, as he has been insane for that long?
• Why does Rock keep hiding so much of his past from Bridge 4? Its not as if they haven't all shown to have big pasts, huge things to be ashamed of and not really be who they first pretended to.
• How happy is Nightblood with his current holder? Why is he withholding his name? 

17 hours ago, ElephantEarwax said:

How is that a bad luck thing? That seems like it'd be the best.

I didn't say it was bad luck, simply so shocking the poor spren may need some time to recover .

What if Felt is a member of the Ghostbloods? He is a worldhopper, he is a scout with close access to the Kholins and therefore interesting information, he seems capable of blending in easily and gaining the trust of people and have no-one questioning his presence. What if this is how he should stand out? By making us wonder if he is a member of a secret society?

Maybe put this on SA forum too, as some people may just go there directly nowadays (since its currently the most active part of the Shard).

11 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Personality wise they aren't incompatible.  Both are intelligent, passionate and committed to doing the right thing.  Jasnah's more practical than Kaladin's idealist streak, but neither one is 100% inflexible in that regard.  They both also hold a lot of their thoughts/emotions inside.  With Kaladin we know what those thoughts are, but Jasnah is still something of a blank slate though.  It's possible Jasnah is asexual or not interested in men, but I think it more likely she's like Kaladin, "married to her job" (saving the world), not necessarily adverse to the idea of a relationship, but not really seeking one out either.  I could definitely see both growing closer and more familiar with each other as they spend time together.

If you want to add another point, I think there is a good chance Windrunner 4th Oath is about been more coolly logical and knowing when to protect, and Elsecaller 4th Oath about doing what is right regardless of logic. If that is true they could help each other on their respective 4th Oaths . 

11 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Unfortunately though he wouldn't be able to teach his hilarious Charisma Aura he seems to have unlocked with the 3rd Oath which makes crowds of people and spren stare at him whenever he's brooding or gazing into the distance though

Slight correction .

37 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

I don’t exactly love the idea, but admittedly that’s mostly for personal preference reasons. Mainly, I don’t feel like Jasnah should feel the need to make a political marriage since she already has an heir (Gavinor). And if she was only doing it for political reasons, it might seem to undermine Jasnah as queen in her own right. On the other hand maybe she would use it as an a logical justification for something she wants to do anyway. But I guess I’d rather just see her with a consort if she wants one. That may be out of the norm for Alethi royalty, but Jasnah is unorthodox so it wouldn’t necessarily stop her, especially during a desolation. 

If Jasnah marries I absolutely don't think her husband would have the title of king, it would probably be Prince or Consort. Like you say, it may be out of the usual. However, IRL the problem of aristocracies for women to rule was often not that the nobles disliked the idea of a woman ruling, but that they knew if she married her husband would rule in her place, and they didn't want to risk a random husband that might not be one of them ruling the country. This would probably be present enough in SA that I doubt any queens that rule (like in Thaylen) and are married would grant the husband the title of king. Actually this is even showcased in modern monarchies which have a million less power than they used to. Monarchies where the king is the heir tend to have both the king and queen in place (Spain, Belgium). Yet when the women are the heirs they are the queen and the husband is usually prince or some other title, but not king (UK, Denmark).

28 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

Clearly the desolation is going to change everything. With all the attention the books have given to the unjust inequalities in Alethi society, I'm sure all of that will be torn down, and a Radiant-centric leadership caste will arise in its place. And if that progresses quickly, a Kaladin-Jasnah marriage could certainly be proposed.

But I don't think Kaladin would go for it. Why? Because the only purpose of such a marriage is to cement the new Radiant aristocracy. It would lay the foundation of a new system in which Kaladin's descendants would have privilege because they inherit his bright blue eyes. In other words, a new system identical to the old system. Once Kaladin's eye color changes permanently, and he realizes that all the injustices he grew up with are ultimately the result of ancient Radiant supremacy, he will want no part in this.

He swore to protect, not to rule.

Its a good point too. 

My argument is that Jasnah would probably not care about the lighteye rule, her single political aim for marrying Kaladin would be so that house kholin is not swept out during the Desolation and destroyed. KR don't look like the sort that would really like to rule countries, and even if they wanted to nations would oppose that. Dalinar's idea of keeping Urithiru with good relations with all nations but only ruling absolutely in Urithiru is along the right lines. It also makes no sense to keep worshipping lighteyes when even the lowest darkeye can bond a spren and change eye color. Which would likely change the idea of how eye color is viewed. The most organic thing would be for countries to figure out how to introduce the KR into their new political order, then conitnue on as they were. Vorin countries obviously will have the biggest shake-up. Jasnah could also promise Kaladin to remove the dahn and nahn system, and just ask him to marry her to strengthen house Kholin. I can't say how Kaladin would react to that, as its something so bizarre I simply don't know what he would say.

 One last point. I don't see KR ruling countries because they are KR (but if the heir becomes a KR, sure). But, I could totally see KR becoming very appealing marriage potential for everyone, as marrying a KR shoots up your chances and your children's chances of becoming KR. So, while KR may not rule countries because of their radiantness, monarchs might play the odds to increase the chances of their house becoming Radiant to increase their authority. Then again this would mean juggling ruling their kingdom with the need to follow the rules of your order and possibly suggestions from the Bondsmiths. 

18 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

Yes, but the rule that automatically elevates shardbearers was calibrated for traditional Alethi society. The nobles, who hold the power, abide by that rule because they know it's practically impossible for a darkeyes to acquire a shardblade. It's like saying, "sure, if a pig learns to fly, we should totally make that pig a senator." What happens when thousands of pigs start flying? Are you going to hand your entire government over to pigs, just because you said you would? Or are you going to change the rules?

If any old bridgeman can become a radiant and pull a new shardblade out of thin air, the rules need to change. The greedy, moneygrubbing lighteyes of Alethkar will not stand by and let an arbitrary custom undermine the social order that gives them their power.

Unfortunately for the Alethi lighteyes, they have very little real power to stand on currently. Alethkar has been overrun by Voidbringers, and they are currently guests in Urithiru. Other nations can walk out in a huff if they don't like what the coalition/KR are doing, The alethi don't have that option, since the only alternative they have is reconquering Alethkar, and if they leave Urithiru because they are pissed with the KR's authority they would be fighting a battle vs Fused and Singers with no KR on their side = bloodbath and defeat. 

Common soldiers follow their leaders (in this sort of society) mainly because they rule the land they are born in. Considering the alethi lighteyes no longer rule said land I'm not even certain if the common soldiers would keep following if they give the order to leave. Normally I would say yes, as common soldiers question little. But I seem to remember in OB most alethi armies in Urithiru (except for Sadeas) were increasingly merging together, doing manouvers together, drinking together, etc. When they start having a viable alternative commander to follow, and if given the choice between "lets go fight Voidbringers with no KR backup" vs "Let's wait and eventually fight Fused with KR backup" it would seem to open at least a split among most armies.

I don't really think all highprinces will stay in Urithiru, but I estimate half or more will stick around and simply try to manouver as much power as they can in the new world order. The remaining highprinces will leave and either be slaughtered or become part of the Odium forces.

Regarding the OP post, I could see that happening, but not sure how much I would like it. What I have no idea is what Kaladin's reaction to the suggestion would be.

That deal may not save Kaladin, but it may save his parents, as Hesina may have been born in Kharbranth. Nevertheless, Kaladin's parents are known to be his parents, so I would be very surprised if by the beginning of book 4 they aren't either in Urihiru or captured by Odium's forces to use against Kaladin at a handy time.

Quote

A figure emerged from the battle. A tall, lean man—so, so familiar. Gloom seemed to cling to Moash, who wore a brown uniform like the parshmen. For a heartbeat the battle pivoted on him. Wall Guard behind him, broken Palace Guard before.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 819). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Was Moash injected with Voidlight here or was it a metaphorical expression?

Random question about the sketch Shallan made of Elhokar, was it Elhokar dying trying to fulfill the Lightweaving/Transformation of Shallan, or did Shallan use Spiritual Lightweaving to paint Elhokar in the moment of his death?