Extesian

I mentioned this theory was in another thread but since I realized it seems to be a bit original I thought I'd put it in a separate post. People have wondered how Elantris could be the thing that lets people access the AonDor but AonDor access must have come before the building of Elantris, for Elantris to be a working Aon. So here's my take on it. For clarity, I'll use Elantrian to describe a user of AonDor that has completed full transformation into the silvery immortals we know and love; I'll use AonDor user to describe someone who has been 'initiated' into AonDor usage but has not been transformed; and I'll use Shaodic Elantrian (stupid term but I don't have a better one) to describe someone half-transformed, with the splotchy horribleness and inability to heal, whether they entered this state after the Reod or were Elantrian pre-Reod (as the effect is the same). An important definition here is also savant. I deliberately won't use the word because a savant in the Cosmere has a certain definition and certain implications that even Brandon hasn't settled in his own mind, and is revising because it was moving away from its original meaning of dangerously permeating your soul with too much power. I am proposing Elantris transforms AonDor users into something similar to a savant, but not a savant as we do far understand it. Firstly, I don't know how AonDor users are 'initiated', how they access the Dor in the first place. Brandon's quiet on it. But my theory isn't about that. Initiation is a separate and first event, we don't know why or how it happens, but it's a precursor to becoming 'Elantrian'. I don't know if it's similar to allomancy, where you have the ability embedded in your sDNA but it takes snapping to access it, or if it's one event that gives people both the ability and sufficient 'gap' in the spiritweb at the same time, but however it works it lets the person access AonDor and, no matter when in time (before or after Elantris) turns the person into am AonDor user. This took place before Elantris was built, but accesses the Dor at a low level, the level you see after Raoden teleports and tries to access it. Secondly, in the past, AonDor users figured out how to draw Aons, what they mean and most importantly how to program with them. You can use AonDor to take individual Aons and build them, like programming, into an equation. You can then draw that equation-Aon and, if you can access AonDor, if you are an AonDor user, the Aon will draw Investiture and channel it to do what the equation said. AonDor users in the past figured out an equation, got the resultant Aon and built Elantris into the shape of that Aon. That Aon enables a flood of controlled investiture to (and this is where I speculate on Realmatics in a way I'm happy to be picked apart) dramatically widen the channels in the AonDor user (the 'investiture channels' that channel investiture through the user into a controlled outcome), giving access to massive amounts of Investiture trying to escape the Cognitive Realm, similar to what happens to a savant. The difference between an Elantrian (an AonDor user in the operating vicinity of Elantris when fully functional) and a savant is that the 'Elantris equation' enables that widening of 'channels' to be carefully controlled so the soul is not dangerously permeated with Investiture - it's safely permeated. An Elantrian leaving the operating vicinity of Elantris is still an AonDor user and still an Elantrian but can only draw the same amount of Investiture a pre-Elantris AonDor user could but they retain the benefits of folk transformation to an Elantrian (in the same way a Returned maintains their status even when they don't have any Breaths other than their divine one and they can't use it to awaken). This explains how Elantris could be built by AonDor users who weren't yet Elantrians. Thirdly, the Reod changed the necessary Elantris equation. This (in my mind) meant that initiated AonDor users in the operating vicinity of Elantris were still affected by the equation but in an abortive way. The broken equation starts the flood of Investiture into the AonDor user, widening their channels, but because the equation is incomplete they fail to transform into an Elantrian. This is where I speculate again but I see it like this. We know that access to far too much investiture will effectively vaporize a person (like anyone who ascends, or Vin drawing on the mists) So to summarize, initiation as an AonDor user is a separate, still-unknown thing. Once that happens, under normal circumstances they are a magic user like any other, moderately invested and able to access magic in a way that increases over time as their investiture channels widen. Elantris being built hijacked that so any AonDor initiate in the area has investiture forced through them in a controlled way, safely widening the channels in their spiritweb to make them so invested as to be immortal and giving them access to a huge Dor-doorway, because their spiritweb changes and the investiture 'heals' them to match their physical body to their now-changed spiritual aspect. When Elantris fails (when the equation changes) their spiritweb is changed, but not properly because the equation is incomplete, and because they can't access enough investiture to heal (to change their physical body to match their spiritual self) their body can no longer heal itself, investiture is needed to do that. I'll note that one thing I'm unsure of but doesn't matter as much for this theory is whether the faulty equation fully transforms their spiritweb, or partially, but either way they can't access enough investiture to match their physical body to it, and because the need for investiture has effectively replaced their own immune system/ability for their body to heal itself, they can't physical heal. I hope that makes some sense! If I've missed any basic background in transferring this to a new thread point out out and I'll edit. If there's any dispute over terminology that's fine, and I can correct, but I'm really interested in ideas on whether the mechanics of this add up realmatically and in terms of Cosmere history.

I'll explain my thoughts with a bit more clarity, as my original post was assuming it wasn't an original idea and the terminology is a bit unclear. For clarity, I'll use Elantrian to describe a user of AonDor that has completed full transformation into the silvery immortals we know and love; I'll use AonDor user to describe someone who has been 'initiated' into AonDor usage but has not been transformed; and I'll use Shaod to describe someone half-transformed, with the splotchy horribleness and inability to heal. An important definition here is also savant. I deliberately didn't use the word because a savant in the Cosmere has a certain definition and certain implications that even Brandon hasn't settled in his own mind, and is revising because it was moving away from its original meaning of dangerously permeating your soul with too much power. I accepted its use for communicative purposes but I won't call them savants here because of that issue. But I am proposing Elantris transforms AonDor users into something similar to a savant. Firstly, I agree with everything you've said Weiry. The initiation is a separate and first event, we don't know why or how it happens, but it's a precursor to becoming 'Elantrian'. I don't know if it's similar to allomancy, where you have the ability embedded in your sDNA but it takes snapping to access it, or if it's one event that gives people both the ability and sufficient 'gap' in the spiritweb at the same time, but however it works it lets the person access AonDor and, no matter when in time (before or after Elantris) turns the person into am AonDor user. This took place before Elantris was built, but accesses the Dor at a low level, the level you see after Raoden teleports and tries to access it. Secondly, in the past, AonDor users figured out how to draw Aons, what they mean and most importantly how to program with them (as you say Weiry, to make equations that channel the Dor in complex ways). They then made an equation, got the resultant Aon and built Elantris into the shape of that Aon. That Aon enables a flood of controlled investiture to (and this is where I speculate on Realmatics in a way I'm happy to be picked apart) dramatically widen the channels in the AonDor user, giving access to massive amounts of Investiture trying to escape the Cognitive Realm, similar to what happens to a savant. The difference between an Elantrian (an AonDor user in the operating vicinity of Elantris when fully functional) and a savant is that the 'Elantris equation' enables that widening of 'channels' to be carefully controlled so the soul is not dangerously permeated with Investiture - it's safely permeated. An Elantrian leaving the operating vicinity of Elantris is still an AonDor user and still an Elantrian but can only draw the same amount of Investiture a pre-Elantris AonDor user could but they retain the benefits of folk transformation to an Elantrian (in the same way a Returned maintains their status even when they don't have any Breaths other than their divine one and they can't use it to awaken). This explains how Elantris could be built by AonDor users who weren't yet Elantrians. Thirdly, the Reod changed the necessary Elantris equation. This (in my mind) meant that initiated AonDor users in the operating vicinity of Elantris were still affected by the equation but in an abortive way. The broken equation starts the flood of Investiture into the AonDor user, widening their channels, but because the equation is incomplete they fail to transform into an Elantrian. This is where I speculate again but I see it like this. We know that access to far too much investiture will effectively vaporize a person (like anyone who ascends, or Vin drawing on the mists) It's then investiture keeping them alive. I think the Elantris equation is carefully controlled to prevent too much investiture being drawn and balances it out to keep the person alive and in control of their investiture usage. When Elantris changed (and the equation changed because the Aons are based on the geography) it didn't allow so much investiture to flood through as to cause the same problems as someone tapping the mists, but it permeated the soul enough, ripped wide enough 'troughs' in the spiritweb to change the user's soul. Normally then investiture would enable the person's physical body to repair to match the soul. But because the equation is broken they can't access enough investiture to heal, to have their physical self change to match their spiritual self. Hence the Shaod. Once the Elantris equation was corrected that flood of investiture completed the equation for existing Shaod and enabled their physical selves to match their spiritual selves (and/or the changes to the spiritweb were completed). So to summarize, initiation as an AonDor user is a separate, still-unknown thing. Once that happens, under normal circumstances they are a magic user like any other, moderately invested and able to access magic in a way that increases over time as their investiture channels widen. Elantris being built hijacked that so any AonDor initiate in the area has investiture forced through them in a controlled way, safely widening the channels in their spiritweb to make them so invested as to be immortal and giving them access to a huge Dor-doorway, because their spiritweb changes and the investiture 'heals' them to match their physical body to their now-changed spiritual aspect. When Elantris fails (when the equation changes) their spiritweb is changed, but not properly because the equation is incomplete, and because they can't access enough investiture to heal (to change their physical body to match their spiritual self) their body can no longer heal itself, investiture is needed to do that. I'll note that one thing I'm unsure of but doesn't matter as much for this theory is whether the faulty equation fully transforms their spiritweb, or partially, but either way they can't access enough investiture to match their physical body to it, and because the need for investiture has effectively replaced their own immune system/ability for their body to heal itself, they can't physical heal. I hope that makes some sense! Edit - actually I hope it's not bad etiquette but I'll put this in a new theory because it's quite detailed.

Ruin is more like decay. It's an embodiment of entropy. Entropy/decay/ruin does destroy things, but I feel a Shard if destruction sounds more like actively rapidly reducing things to nothing. Ruin seemed to want it to happen more naturally. He didn't try to use his power once freed to suddenly destroy Scadrial, he accelerated its demise through ash and so on rather than just destroying all life in one hit. Well that's sort of my head-Canon

Here's the quote (spoilers for Unfettered 2/Oathbringer) So I don't think it's an Honorblade but mainly because it has the 10 other orders' glyphs. I thought Bondsmith was a good guess but that's ruled out. But I certainly can't rule out it being an Honorblade. The numbers would still trouble me though. The only way it could be is if everyone, the Shin, Taravangian are wrong and one was secretly switched long ago. That would surprise me a lot.

I think he just has the insufferable youthful arrogance of someone told he would never amount to anything and amounted to something. But he never was good enough for my Khriss either way. I've often wondered if he ended up as a Worldhopper.

Could be. But I feel based on the wording of this WoB that a worldhopper that isn't Hoid is a decent possibility.

It's highly unlikely he would. I know it was a hypothetical but in case you haven't seen this one- And Figberts is right, they are one Shard now and would tale something to split them apart. Could be possible though. As for a name, I'd call it Malevolence. Like hatred but with an element of intent to hurt.

While I wish we could use these for really specific Cosmere questions the Shard and WoBs haven't resolved, I understand the point, understand he doesn't want to have huge spoiler answers on Facebook. And you know what, I quite like the answer. I like the background about Taln in WoK prime, I like the explanation about why he's been trolling us with "the man who calls himself Taln" and I like that fans who aren't on this site suddenly get to know one of the little hidden twists that may make them start to look more closely at his books and places like this site, where fans pick apart this stuff. That said, the original point still remains, we should represent our collective informed voices more strongly for these votes.

Sorry i was a bit lazy with me answer. It's pretty well established that burning a heavily invested metal is hard. I'm actually surprised I can find a specific WoB on burning a Shardblade but there is this. So the point is even if a Shardblade is burnable metal, because it's heavily invested from a different Shard, or magic set, it's extremely difficult to burn.

Shardblades count as a metal but they're so invested they're almost impossible to burn. We don't know what it would do though.

Merciful Tehlu! I didn't notice my elevation to King's Wit! Now I know you all want to upvote me for this personal triumph, and to keep my favour. Don't do it. I want to stay this way forever. I must Preserve my rank. I'm even avoiding snappy one-liners or fibbldygrak talk. Don't do it. Don't dooooooo it......... Do it

I agree with Weltall on this. That said I feel Autonomy will end up being the biggest menace, because of the Vessel's strength and cunningness and the flexibility the Shard gives (at least more flexibility than pure hate is).

You may be right Weltall but I definitely haven't seen one. This is the main one i know. But then there is this from reddit in 2015 That's using every WoB source I know of. If you can find something more though I'll be very glad, I'm amazed at how little has been asked about it. I guess coz only a few of us had access to the prose version until recently.

Evolutionarily, things are delicious because our bodies need them. If you need shell for the minerals in them, they'll taste delicious

I can deal with the lack of books, just not the lack of WoBs the gold seam of October-March has dried up

Burning enough lerasium will make you ascend I just think there was never enough around to do so. We know that if Odium, for example, invested properly in Scadrial, he could maybe produce god-metal. So I think the answer to your question @Gudbrand is yes, but only if the person invested in Roshar. And only Roshar coz that's where the planet's rules and history allow it. As Jedal said though stormlight is just one manifestation of Investiture so it's academic whether that's the form it takes, except for surgebinders who couldn't use it anyway (ie a lerasium ascendent wouldn't create investiture of Honor /Cultivation).

Welcome Cobber. We need more of us from Earth's Sinovar (or Shattered Pains, depending on your perspective) I'm hoping to make it to Sydney for him as well!

I generally confine myself to Cosmere theories and providing needed WoBs, but I’ve been amusing myself by imagining Mr Men (and Lil’ Miss) characters in the Cosmere. Makes for the odd entertaining lines. As My Happy is my guy, here’s a few. “This man was not sane. Mr Happy was the most dangerous weapon on all of Roshar, and he was broken”. “Mr Happy sat atop the highest tower in the world and contemplated the End of All Things. The souls of the people he had murdered lurked in the shadows. They whispered to him. If he drew close, they screamed”. “Mr Happy struggled to kill himself. His hand trembled as he tried to summon the strength to make himself reach up and pull the spike free from his back and end his monstrous life”. “Mr Happy watched her scream, listening to its sweetness. He smiled, then reached down for her unbroken leg”. “DESTROY! Mr Happy’s voice boomed in his head. THE EVIL MUST BE DESTROYED”. “’You are massacring the entire town, Mr Happy! What is the point? Where is the glory for Jaddeth in this?’ ‘Do not question me!’ Mr Happy screamed, his eyes blazing. His raging zeal had finally been released.” “’ Many men never get a chance to create true art,’ Mr Happy said. ‘And the best performances are those which can never be reproduced. Months, years, spent preparing. Everything placed right. But at the end of the day, the rotting will begin. I couldn’t truly mummify them; I hadn’t the time or resources. I could only preserve them long enough to prepare for this one show.” Anyway, you get the picture Feel free to come up with some amusing versions yourselves, I’ve gone pretty dark, but I feel there could be a lot of options.

Now this is something I've been unsure of, the idea that a resonance on Roshar is from any two surges, because of this WoB. It's not at all decisive but does make me wonder if the known resonances, like squire strength/number and mnemonic abilities, only exist because the paired surges that bring them are actually paired. If the pairs are natural to Roshar and the pairs themselves are comparable to metals on Scadrial, perhaps you do not get a new resonance from mixing non-adjacent surges and the ten are it.

Yeah most of them aren't sapient.

Prologue. Beginning. Middle. End. Ars Arcanum. Wait, plot, not structure. I'll try again. Mistborn Stormlight Warbreaker Wax and Wayne Shadows for Silence Elantris Oh, and Kinnsayyy, you killed me with the Elantris one. Just killed me.

Khriss - Darkside/Gone (Dr Dre)

Lightbringer series, Brent Weeks. And Brandon has said he's probably the guy, right now, Brandon would choose to finish his work.

Welcome to the Shard @chsy83, but you should know a couple of forum rules. No multiple posting in a row, if you have further thoughts edit the first post and add them. Also they frown on 'necros' here, this thread is from 2011 and if it's an old thread with no recent posts, you should start a new one and link it if you want to. Other than that, enjoy!

Patience @ILuvHats I think like me (an Australian) you may be on a different timezone to most Sharders so it can take time. Your theory isn't dumb, no theory that points out correlations, speculates the reasons and is well-reasoned and well-explained is dumb. And there is a lot about the influence of the planet, and the system, on different magic systems that we don't know. We do know for example that the planet itself does influence the magic system, it's not purely the Shard. What we don't know is how and why. It could be that Adonalsium's original design of (or at least investing in) a planet confines the ways in which magic systems operate (but then Scadrial was created by Shards and even there the planet seems to mould or limit the system). It could be something physical about the planet. It could be something physical about the solar system. For example we have this. There has been some speculation along your lines about the number of moons around Shardworlds, which match somewhat as well. So your speculation is worthwhile. And there are other points, like significant numbers for different planets. But then this varies by planet, not just system; Scadrial is 16 and Roshar is 10, but Braize, in the same system, is a number different to 10 (9 i believe though i forget if that is confirmed). My instinct is it's not right as I'm not sure why a Shard would be limited by the number of planets in a system when they're both investing in the same planet. But there is some correlation which makes it a topic worth opening up. I'm pretty good on Cosmere knowledge but not as good as many Sharders, and I haven't read every thread on here, so it may have been discussed before or others may have notable flaws to point out. But it's a well thought-out idea, especially for someone relatively new here Edit - I'll make some comments on your various comments I have no problem with this, I think your idea would be a maximum number of Shards in a system, 1 per planet, as there are plenty of inhabited systems that don't have Shards at all. Again, no issue with this since Sel is actually one magic system, the Dor, with regional variations because the Dor is trapped in the Cognitive realm. Darkside is invested and has magic, but it's nowhere near as invested as Dayside and we know nothing about its magic system. I believe it's straight off Adonalsium, like First of the Sun. We know Threnody was not home to a Shard but that Ambition was mortally wounded in that system and spread messed-up chunks of Investiture through it. So again no problem with inconsistency here as it is not a Shardworld. Definitely, there's plenty of WoBs about the planet influencing the system and the one I posted about even other planets in the system influencing it, though I think it's that the Shard's magic systems were influenced by it more than the Shards themselves.