robardin

Well, we've seen Mraize dismiss "that fool who sits in Kharbranth and imagines himself a player" or something like that, no doubt referring to Taravangian; what have we seen from the Diagrammers in mentioning the Ghostbloods? I know the Diagram itself mentions them somehow (though I don't remember exactly where this is mentioned). I am not certain that the Diagram folks know much about the GBs and their motives at present, even if Transcendent Taravangian figured out or saw a lot about them, who knows what he actually wrote down about them. (I mean they know, the Diagram, but we as readers don't know what they know.)

And as the saying goes, I'd rather be lucky than good!

One way to assess what the GBs are is to judge them by their composition and their operations. That is to say: who do they recruit, how are they recruited (what attracts them to become one, what are they offered or what are they told about being a GB), and what are they asked to do both to gain membership and once admitted as a GB? Known GBs: Lin Davar, Kabsal, Mraize, Iyatil, "Thaidakar"; all the unnamed others in Mraize's Warcamp Cellar. We don't yet know anything about how these people entered the organization. Special note: the man who'd "helped" Lin Davar to use the Soulcaster and then died shortly after Lin did, is widely assumed to be a GB (including by Shallan) but was found only with the GB symbol as a pendant - not as a tattoo - which is pretty suspicious to me, so I didn't include him on the list of "Known GBs". Known GB recruits/inductees: Veil/Shallan Davar. Well, lots of POV information here, eh! Known GB wannabes: Tyn, "Ishnah" (in quotes because some ppl theorize she wasalways already a GB). The "wannabes" already knew, or thought they knew, about the Ghostbloods and wanted in. Tyn said to Shallan: "Trust me, you want to know who I know, and you want to work with them. Without their approval, nothing big happens at the Shattered Plains." So she was a freelance agent - confidence schemer and undercover agent/assassin - who wanted to broaden her base. Unfortunately for her, the GBs were never seriously considering her as a member - "Tyn thought herself to be the hunter, but she was game all along." And then adding as a comment to Veil in recruiting her, after specifically saying they had not been recruiting Tyn: "We are not like others you have known. We have a greater purpose, and we are... protective of one another." Meaning, a greater purpose Tyn had no idea about. Ishnah implies that she's a "freelancer" able to work under Veil because her former employer, House Hamaradin ("in Vamah's court"), was taken down by the GBs after "crossing them". But her stated reason for wanting into the GBs via Veil was: "The world is wrong now. Nothing make sense. But you... Your group... You know things. I don't want to be blind anymore." And Mraize knows who she is, commenting that she oversold her history, and gives Veil his blessing to work with her - while also adding "if you chooose to eliminate her, we will help cover up the disappearance". It doesn't sound like Ishnah was on the path to GB membership, either (not sure if her longer service under Shallan since then has changed anything). "GB Aware" people: Jasnah, Ialai, Gavilar (they were targeted by the GBs and knew it, even knowing Thaidakar's name). We also don't yet know how much, or how, these people knew about Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods.

I agree with this - those guys were the ones closest to him in the original Sadeas bridge-running Bridge Four, with Sigzil, Skar, and Drehy being in the next tier.

Yeah, I've seen Kelsier mentioned as Head Ghostblood before - and have thought of it myself - it makes sense except for the fact that apparently, WoB being quite firm on this point, Ghost Kelsier (even the Soverign Edition) cannot leave Scadrial - at least not via the Cognitive Realm. So he'd be doing quite a lot of masterminding of events on Roshar from quite afar. Until that "ichor-alcohol" link to "ghost-blood" was made, I would have said Kelsier was the #1 suspect. Now... There's another game in town.

When I started reading this theory, I was all like, psssht, c'mon. But then, hmm. And then, Huh. And finally. WHOAH.

BTW, I don't know it's to do with my particular browser or computer setup, but on my phone and on my desktop both, I was not able to use the Moderation Actions -> Hide option at the top of the page - I got an error. BUT, I did eventually notice there is another "Moderation Actions -> Hide" dropdown at the BOTTOM of the web page, and THAT one did work. Just in case anybody reading this comes finds themselves in a weird situation like I did!

Let's sign a pact - whoever dies first, the other promises to bring back as a Lifeless with the Command, Finish Reading the Cosmere. OK that's technically a Warbreaker reference, but it would certainly take a load off my mind, being as I'm older than Brandon Sanderson!

Hmm, this is an interesting concept. Splintering is, in effect, "Shattering" a Shard - what we see as Seons on Elantris are basically free-floating splinters of Devotion, right? Well then, why can't a person mini-Ascend by absorbing one? If it's because they've been around long enough to become sentient, then is that the answer? It has to be a freshly Splintered, large bit of Investiture? Or would it simply be a temporary Ascension, as happened to TLR (where one didn't get all of Preservation at the Well, just enough of of it comprise the majority and for long enough to renew the Intent behind the prison of the Well)?

The Ghostbloods fit several of the poll categories at the same time. I'd say it's a blend of three of your choices. A "secret society" that "openly recruits from other Cosmere aware groups" - check! We have a WOB to that exact effect. Mafia / Organised crime? They do use brutal means to control people and information, have a reputation and recognized symbol in the underworld of the Alethi warcamps, and speak of wanting to control means of travel and trade between worlds. A cult that is serving the will of a Shard or Leader, or seeking to reconstitute or construct a Shard for themselves? Mraize does say they have "a higher purpose" that is centered around "accumulating power" and that transporting Stormlight out of Roshar to somewhere else is critical to this, so maybe? But only one hand at a time can wear the One Ring, as well you know, Saruman! -- I mean, only one Ghostblood could actually Ascend! And we don't hear mention of even "Thaidakar" as a Cult Leader type of figure so much as an organizational leader. If that were the case, I have the feeling Mraize would have said that "HE has" (not "we have") "a higher purpose" in recruiting Shallan in Urithiru. Typically cults recruit by trying to get an inductee to fully trust The Leader, a fixed figurehead, rather than a larger organization with fluid membership. So overall I went with "Secret Society", but with strong overtones or elements of those two.

The existence of atiumminds (a god metal) is an interesting point to focus on; after all, if god metals are a special case of "pure Investiture made solid", then why couldn't a Shardblade (Radiant spren made solid) or Shardplate (Radiant auxiliaryspren made solid?) also be used as a metalmind by a Full Feruchemist (not saying they would spin out Ferrings or Mistings for that metal), possibly for some attribute related to the Shard they derived from? When Sanderson wrote Mistborn with atiumminds as a plot element, he hadn't quite built this entire system yet, and he's admitted he'd do atium differently if he could go back and rewrite it - and has done so in his Mistborn screenplay. He made burnable not just by Mistborn or Seer Mistings, but by any Allomancer (as it's "godly" and the basis of the Metallic Arts of Scadrial are ultimately derived from a combination of Preservation and Ruin, to different degrees in expression but not of basis). There is be no need then to say how Preservation "jiggled" the Allomantic table to spin out Seers, as the sixteen metals are just be the same set for all time. So you could make it so that atium's usability as a metalmind is built in to the Metallic Arts, because both are built into Scadrian sDNA which were created ex nihilo by the combination of Preservation and Ruin, but other god metals or spren metals would not be.

And it's not necessarily linked to being a Returned per se. Spoiler for ending of Warbreaker,

Did I miss where that detail was given at some point? That would kind of throw my timeline off a bit. My theory is that his Splintering is indeed linked to B-A-M's sudden and deep Connection both to Odium and to the parsh, but that both stemmed from the same root event or development. Because it's strange to think that Odium might have been freed from his prison on Braize enough to Splinter Honor on Roshar, yet not Splinter Cultivation, nor to start the Final Desolation until many thousands of years more - which only happened after Taln broke and he could get a voidspren through to convince the "listeners" to take on stormform and summon the Everstorm. We only see Odium personally appear on Roshar - in Dalinar's visions, at first, and then of course at Thaylen Fields - after that.

It is only different in nature, not in circumstance or timing, which is still suspicious. Like, Odium really wants to Splinter both Honor and Cultivation - it's the reason he came to Roshar in the first place. (Apparently bringing humans with him, or vice versa, according to the Eila Stele.) However it started or fundamentally worked, Honor (together with Cultivation?) managed to simultaneously trap him in the Rosharan system - on Braize specifically, at first - and to shield themselves from him at the same time with the Oathpact (probably by keeping him on Braize). Both sides are acting through mortal proxies on Roshar, with a cycle of resets in the Desolations, bound to Heralds with Honorblades, and Fused/Thunderclasts with Unmade - the Knights Radiant were not part of terms of the original Oathpact, they came into being after that all began. So there were some number of non-Radiant Desolations, where ten Heralds led humanity to kill every Fused and Thunderclast and then, before they could be reborn in the same Desolation, kill themselves to reseal them (along with themselves) on Braize, which is implied to be where Odium was imprisoned (thus having to act through his proxies in the Unmade et al.). Then ten kinds of Radiant spren imitated what they saw in the Honorblades and formed Nahel bonds with humans. That kind of tipped the scales, because now humanity didn't get fully reset in between Desolations - they had the Radiants to maintain and rebuild civilization from their base in Urithiru, and to continue holding back the now-just-mortal singers ("parsh"). And then after a large number of more Desolations, most of the Heralds abandon the Oathpact, leaving Taln to hold it all together by himself on Braize... ...And then, thousands of years pass before the False Desolation and Recreance. If Odium could break through from Braize to Splinter Honor due to the weakened Oathpact, why couldn't he do the same to Cultivation? My theory is that Cultivation is involved, and that whatever she did to enable B-A-M to be a conduit for Voidlight and forms of power in Connecting with the parsh - assuming it was her - also "let through" enough of Odium's touch to Splinter Honor. It probably involved an oath, after all.

OK, so I had organized some list of thoughts that I no longer have in my head, but to attempt to summarize, it was basically this: The order of several major events seem to be: there was a False Desolation, which was ended by the mind-bombing of the Odium-Connected parsh (at a level that was passed down to offspring!) effectuated by the only Bondsmith of that era (Melishi) as a side effect of trapping Ba-Ado-Mishram in a gem; the Sibling going into sleep mode and subsequent abandonment of Urithiru; the Splintering of Honor, who per the Stormfather was too busy dying to "support that generation of Radiants" in their oaths, thereby resulting in the Recreance (by 9 out of 10 Orders of the Knights Radiant). Remarkably, or I should rather say suspiciously, it seems all these things happened quite close together. Melishi was the only Bondsmith at the end of the False Desolation, and Urithiru had been in constant operation since Ahrietiam and before with a Bondsmith always in residence there, where the Sibling is/was. So it stands to reason Melishi was likely bonded to the Sibling. And perhaps, the dis-Connecting of the parsh representing the opposite of "I will bring people together" is what caused the Sibling to "slumber". In any case, the root of it all is in the False Desolation. (Yes, possibly even the Splintering of Honor. For how did Odium manage to Splinter Honor, but not Her, while held back on Braize by the still-operating Oathpact, and yet still not be able to send voidspren and whatnot to trigger the Everstorm until after Taln had broken? Perhaps it's all related?) Why was it a False Desolation? Because the Heralds had not returned - they'd hung it all up after Ahrietiam, and told everybody it was all over - nor had the Fused, aka the Voidbringers, who were still held back on Braize by Taln alone. And yet, the singers of that time were able to bond to Ba-Ado-Mishram to access Voidlight and gain forms of power, which Unmade had never had that ability before. It was an impossible Desolation. And whatever allowed that to happen, was such a deep Connection that trapping B-A-M in a gem deeply dis-Connected those parsh from Roshar in general; yea, unto succeeding generations. So, my theory is: a "parshman" or woman (as they were called the "parsh" already at that time) decided that if the humans were right and there would be no more Fused "gods" returning ever again to lead them in a fight to regain Roshar from the humans, then their only hope was to turn to another source for that power needed to fight the Radiants, who had continued to exist despite the Heralds having retired, bonding spren and operating Oathgates and generally dominating every corner of Roshar. (Every corner except for Narak, that is, or Stormseat and its Silver Kingdom nation of Natanatan, which had been destroyed by a Shattering... Or had that not happened yet? Or even concurrently?) How to do this, when contact with Odium was shut down by the Oathpact, holding all the Fused and voidspren on Braize, even if the Unmade were left to wander Roshar? The Old Magic. Visiting the Nightwatcher. Which pre-dated humans coming to Roshar, so the parsh would very likely know about it. And that Cultivation foresaw that due to the nine Heralds forswearing the Oathpact, eventually Taln would break and the Everstorm would occur, and it would be Game Over for humanity (and Herself) at that point or soon afterward... Unless perhaps, with "a careful pruning" such as she is capable of, she laid the deep seeds and roots of a timeline where all those things happened.

I wonder what Heightening he is, then. Clearly he's got enough Breath to Awaken quite a few non-human-shaped scarves and sheets into combat use. If he's suppressing his Divine Breath, as we saw in the opening of Warbreaker that has the side effect of also suppressing all the benefits of the Fifth Heightening. Well, except apparently for being functionally immortal, as that property of being a Returned may be too basic? But at any rate, he regains things like perfect pitch and perfect color sense, which means that suppressing his Divine Breath lost him those things. So either his "life sense" is also something that cannot be suppressed, or he's got enough for at least the First Heightening and who knows, maybe up to the Fourth ("perfect life sense"). The First Heightening also lets you sense how much Breath another person has got. I wonder if Zahel's been anywhere in the vicinity of a certain new guardsman in the Sebarial camp who occasionally visits Shallan and her brothers, and how he'd react to sensing Breath in Mraize (if indeed Breath-based life sense is why he can always detect Veil, or anyone else, coming up behind him).

Nah, we've seen Teft twice already in RoW - he was in the fight with the Fused in Chapter 5 (when the Heavenly Ones did the recon of the flying barge), and then again in Chapter 9 when he told Kaladin he needed to go congratulate the latest Windrunner to swear the Third Ideal and to discuss the fact that Moash was still around. (And to delicately refer to the fact that Renarin found Kaladin "frozen" again.) I guess this could be one of Teft's "good days" if the bad ones have gotten worse or more numerous, but as far as we know, he's still on normal active duty in important missions, and acting in a "sergeant type role" with respect to Kaladin on a relatively everyday basis.

Yeah I noticed that as well. I'd have thought that Teft would be the natural "heir" to Kaladin as Chief Windrunner, as he's been Kaladin's second since the early days of running bridges. At first I thought maybe Skar's promotion was specifically for Bridge Four, but no, it was for the "Windrunners" as a whole. Of course, Sigzil was delegated the role of head administrator for the Windrunners for "supplies and recruitment" and Skar for "active missions", perhaps Teft is over both of them in terms of overall strategy (i.e., the Kaladin role that goes to Dalinar and co. meetings)? That's what Dalinar had wanted Kaladin to rotate into, a general who commanded from off the field instead of in it, but Kaladin demurred as being unable to see the Windrunners fly into combat without joining them. Which would mean Kaladin is truly "out" of the Windrunners as an organization.

What does Team Dalinar think they know about Taravangian, anyway? I also don't think they know about the Diagram, or his cycle of cold intelligence and empathy. After the battle at Thaylen Fields, he tells Dalinar straight up that he abandoned him because he assumed he'd fall and wanted to put himself in position to seize control of the coalition. This shocks Dalinar into realizing he had not become king of Jah Keved by accident, either. Taravangian then further says, while excusing himself from Gavilar's death at Szeth's hands, that he subsequently sought out the Assassin in White and managed to get him to do all those other assassinations of world leaders. (Which Szeth should have further explained by now as being Oathstone related.) Eight days later, a "dumber" version of Taravangian is thinking back on how he'd given "some truth" to Dalinar as a "calculated risk" to remain in the coalition, even if Dalinar might never trust him again. So Dalinar probably knows or believes: Taravangian's "slow of thought" reputation was a complete front Taravangian has been scheming to take over the world with politics and assassination... For which his motive was to unite and to save humanity from destruction by the Voidbringers after an ardent at the Palanaeum, "Dova", who was probably Battah'Elin, told them the Desolation was coming He has lost his assassin (in Szeth), so his most dangerous tool is now gone, and his political scheming is limited by his confessions Because he still thinks Taravangian's ultimate goals align with his, and because Taravangian controls Kharbranth and Jah Keved (two of the human nations that still stand - where Alethkar itself does not), he is still including him in the coalition to fight the Voidbringers. They don't know he was responsible (by commanding Malata) for the attack on Urithiru through the supposedly closed Kholinar Oathgate that resulted in the loss of Jezrien's Honorblade that Vyre is now flitting about with. As we see from the Conference of the Fused, he's been passing on information about the "guard patterns" at Urithiru, but not really important stuff like Navani's advances in fabrial design. Assuming he's not holding back, he's being excluded from such things even though until his earlier treachery had been revealed, Jah Keved had been at the forefront of fabrial technology (what with the "half-shards" and all), and Taravangian himself gave the tip to Dalinar as to how one captures a spren in a fabrial gemstone that insipired him to trap Nergoul in the King's Drop ruby.

I believe Nightwatcher's "bane" is supposed to change something about the person receiving the "boon", as it's Cultivation at work but in two opposite directions, not an exchange of goods for services. (Even if the "boon" is something tangible, like those "bolts of good cloth" someone got, in exchange for... Seeing the world upside-down for the rest of his life, IIRC?) Though it's still plausible that visiting the NW is how he's able to use Stormlight to feed his need for Investiture, it's not the only way, and whatever his "curse" would be, should be something about him. (WOB has said he's definitely missing some memories, so maybe it was like what happened with Dalinar, though it's also implied he could mess with his own memories with the Commands he told Denth that he knew to do that. And in fact, had gotten a traumatized child to do on herself.)

If you read it like I read it, he referred that event obliquely as a "mistake", yet "the best one he ever made". So it wasn't stolen, but a decision to let it go. (When Kaladin asks about why Zahel "gave up the sword", I like to think he mentally replied to the very related question, why Vasher gave up THE SWORD.)

Well, Zahel was saying that as long as that description fit Kaladin, he would not really be fit - by motivation, not by skill - to be a swordmaster ardent. "Return when you hate the fight,” Zahel said. “Truly hate it.” Return (no pun intended, I presume)... To be an ardent... Like he is. Which equivalence would mean that Zahel "truly hates the fight". For now. This time. ("Because I learned that conflict would find men no matter how hard I tried. I no longer wanted a part in trying to stop them.") But has not in the past. And then not long after, he muses about how "Type Two Invested Entities" like himself are "chained to their Intent" the longer they exist. And what Intent were you given, O Warbreaker the Peaceful who has lived a dozen human lifetimes or more? (Or was that Wartlover the Ugly?)

Not sure that a Brute stripper would be so in demand as you might imagine. A toned physique is generally more attractive than something like what Bugs Bunny faced in "The Crusher": (That is always what I picture when a Feruchemist massively taps a pewtermind :D) And in our world, being able to fly (and doing so) would attract a lot of attention. As would being a human firearm. Yes, you'd be a real live superhero; but my suspicion is, unless you truly mastered the masked identity thing with a normal human "civilian" front on a long-term basis, one would find being the only one in the world like this exhausting, or (much more likely) becoming pressured in various carrot-and-stick ways to become the agent or tool of a government, with other governments out either to steal you or to eliminate you as an asset. Finally, tapping a zincmind not only speeds up your thoughts, but also may allow you to reach conclusions you would not have otherwise reached. Kind of like how a combustion engine with a turbo is using the exhaust (waste) power from your engine to feed back into it with a boost. Tapping a zincmind is adding mental horsepower that in theory you stored there earlier at the cost of being underpowered. Where you'd have "run out of mental horsepower" to push up the allegorical hill, the boost now got you over. Of course there is an upper limit to how much boost you get; continuing with the turbo example, a car with a small displacement engine with a turbo may now match one that's 50% larger in horsepower for a given use, and thus be able to accelerate or to go faster than it would ever have done without the turbo, but not in all use cases and it would never be able to match the pulling power of a tractor. As another concrete example of zinc's upper limit, Scadrial's first ever Compounder - Rashek, the Lord Ruler - had access to a nigh-infinite zincmind and about a thousand years to think about how to defeat Ruin, and in the end still gave up and resorted to just canning food for survival bunkers. You still can't figure out stuff based on what you don't know.

I'm not sure why you equate a storyline where Rlain gets an honorspren - which it seems he certainly would like to have, and it would seem like he certainly deserves, except for the honorspren objecting to him being "of the enemy" because of his being a listener - is "that's Equality with a captial E and therefore blech, 2020 message fiction". But you're entitled to whatever goes on in your own head. I think your comments are saying more about yourself than anything about Brandon's writing direction. So, there is a reason the listeners and singers had never bonded spren with Nahel bonds before. We don't know what that is. If it turns out it was purely racial prejudice and now, after thousands upon thousands of years, it was all really just a misunderstanding that will now be easily overcome simply by having Radiant spren - who are inflexible sentient concepts, at core, not living creatures with malleable minds, until they form a bond to a living person - suddenly deciding hey, let's bond some singers/listeners after all, and now all the fighting will stop! - I would agree that is an unsatisfactory storyline. Completely agree. But there being a deeper secret as to why Rlain is shut out from bonding, yet Venli was not, that can be discussed and shown as to Why It's Different This Time (for that matter, one can boil it down to the question of, "not why did, but why could Timbre bond with Venli when this had never happened before?") , that I think is being set up. And yes. Sorry. I am totally rooting for Rlain to get a spren bond, honorspren or otherwise, and would greatly enjoy seeing an honorspren like Yunfah being impressed by the honor on display by Rlain in telling him he doesn't want Yunfah to bond him under such a pretense of "enforced diversity." If you want to get all 2020 about it, Rlain doesn't want to be viewed as an Affirmative Action Token, he wants to be bonded on his own merit. You can't say that's not admirable. And having read what you have of Rlain and how he's acted after what he's put up with from humans, you can't say he isn't worthy of an honorspren.

Regarding the first part: I get where you're coming from, but I also think there is far more epic a feeling to a good story beyond a video game like "unlock powers, level up to max, defeat boss baddie, game over and get some more Cheetos" progression; if there is a theme of "...and the X we were doing all along was never the real deal!" Because a good story is always really about the internal story of the characters, not just what they do, or become able to do. In particular, I think you are really, REALLY stretching it to call Stormlight Archive "message fiction"... Especially an accusation triggered by a scene where Rlain, after many, many months of seeing every other Bridge Four member (except Hobbid?) first draw Stormlight as a squire, then gain a Nahel bond of their own, and constantly being initially or unconsciously interacted with as either an enemy (warform) or a slave - is turned off by the idea that he'd "gain" an honorspren bond because Kaladin forced an honorspren to do it. I would have thought much LESS of Rlain had he reacted, "Really? I'm gonna get an honorspren and a Nahel bond and powers? Say no more! Best present ever!" As for "I hope Brandon isn't writing that story..." What "story" is it you hope he's not writing? That the humans under Team Dalinar will end up finding allies among the listeners (Venli) and possibly Fused (Leshwi) who will decide that the future of Roshar is not based on a war of extinction but coexistence? Do you read much simpler and darker fantasy than I do? Because a fantasy series that presented a terrible A vs. B war spanning eons, then presented an out for that war by setting up two groups of people (Kaladin, Rlain, Lewshi, Venli, etc.) who are starting to think "man this eternal war sucks, isn't there another way?" and then the ending was "nah, let's just have this side we POV'ed first, and are human instead of non-human, just power up and crush the other side"... ...Over TEN volumes each of which are a trilogy unto themselves, and will tie into a mega-storyline across an epic Cosmere backdrop... That would SUCK.and would be my choice of describing as the Story I Hope He's Not Writing. Now, whether or not that is where SA is actually going to end up, I will not say is for certain. I will agree it's a bit "obvious" as a direction where it could end up. I fully expect Brandon to surprise me. If SA4 ends with Leshwi renouncing Odium and teaming up with Dalinar or something in an unbelievable fashion that reads like Kumbaya Fanfic, I'd be quite upset. But you seem to assume any storyline trending in that direction is a Kumbaya Fanfic, which just has me shaking my head. Regarding the second part, about Zahel: Yeah, I was going to post something similar about how he's an ardent exactly because he's there to stay in the background. Not to "get involved". So questions like "why hasn't he told Dalinar or Navani or Jasnah about that Nightblood sword that Szeth is carrying and what it can do to the Fused", well, an obvious answer is, why should he? For one, just leaking information about Nightblood being able to do what it can do at all, and that he knows about how/why it exists, would immediately put pressure on Powers That Be on both sides to try to force him to make more. Exactly what he doesn't want. He'd rather nobody know about Nightblood's Special Nature at all.