cometaryorbit

Conceptually, for me personally as a reader, either Koloss or Shades - but not meeting or fighting one, the idea of *becoming* one (loss of self and mind, becoming a monster). For inhabitants of the relevant world, probably Odium or another hostile Shard.

I would argue* that "Surgebinding" as a magic system proper began with the Heralds & Honorblades. Rosharan natural magic does Surge-ish things but IMO is not really a magic system proper (Invested Art?) The Stormfather claims that the Honorblade is the mark of the oath, so I'd say the oath did make them Surgebinders via giving them Honorblades. Later Honorblade use by others is kind of a side effect IMO. IMO, Heralds and KR are using Surgebinding in the "normal" way (per WOB the Surge pairs "are natural to Roshar"), Fused are hacking the system kind of like (Mistborn Era 1) If they were using it naturally, they'd have two powers. Raboniel tells Venli the Fused are better Surgebinders, but she's clearly a biased source. I don't think actual performance bears that out at all. The real advantage the Fused have is holding Voidlight indefinitely & I think that's gemhearts not Surgebinding strength. *and have before - see "Roshar's Natural Magic" thread in my signature.

Honorblades are in fact bonded (yes, WoBs conflict on this, but it was later clarified). I doubt the entire system of oaths was artificially imposed on the spren, but yeah it could be read that way. Awakening is all about giving away Breath, Endowing part of your life in an object, just as people give Breaths to other people or the Returned. The Heralds swore an oath to Honor, and received the Honorblades. I don't think skyeels and Rhyshadiums are using Surgebinding, they're using Roshar's pre-Shattering natural magic. And no, not everything with bonds is from Honor - seons bond too. But that fits Devotion's intent. It doesn't fit Odium.

If Dalinar is only Unity when the Realms are united, maybe this is a result of Spiritual timelessness- a future where Dalinar holds Unity is likely enough that it is basically present in the Spiritual. I'd expect Unity to be either the Dawnshard that binds or the Shard you'd get by reuniting Honor's Splinters (or most of them) with Dalinar as a Vessel. I think it's said that the Stormfather is Honor's largest remnant, so I can't see there being an Unity Splinter important enough to impress Odium.

Best option for future sight might actually be f-Nicrosil / a-Electrum. Storing lots of Allomantic power in nicrosil then tapping it all at once with an electrum burn might get to something like the Spiritual Realm vision of duralumin+atium. My favorite non Compounding combos, besides Wax and Wayne's that we actually see in the books, are f-Gold and a-Pewter / f-Steel and a-Pewter, since health and speed are usually very hard to store, but you can just make up for the storing loss by burning pewter, which isn't a very expensive metal. But those were already brought up. Mental fortress combo: a-Copper (soothing and rioting protection) + f-Electrum (determination). But we don't really know what feruchemical determination looks like. In era 2 or later, with skyscrapers, a-Iron plus either f-Pewter or f-Steel would be basically a Spiderman combo. F-Gold would let a Coinshot do much more daring things with steel jumping, and do anchored Pushes that would damage a normal human (things Vin uses pewter to brace herself for).

Well, OK, but the thing is there are apparently no Physical Realm intelligent beings on Braize (the Fused are presumably disembodied while there). So even if Odium's presence on Braize creates the potential for an Odium-based, Braize-native magic system, there is no one to actually discover it, no one with the appropriate Connection to use it, so it effectively doesn't exist. I doubt this is unintentional; Odium probably picked a planet without Physical people (unlike Ashyn and Roshar itself) so they wouldn't be running around using his Investiture.

Yeah, I was thinking iron for weight, it's easy to store. Nightblood is a Shardblade, though, and made of steel. Azure/Vivenna's Shardblade is also probably not made of a Rosharan godmetal. I agree a non-Rosharan Shardblade probably won't have the exact same cutting effect as a spren Shardblade or an Honorblade. Nightblood's is different, at least. But is that destruction effect mostly because his Command has "destroy" in it, or largely a function of being insanely Invested? The Metallic Arts don't have the "degrees of freedom" Awakening Commands do. OTOH, there might be a way to get a soul-wound effect out of Hemalurgy, without the precise placement needed for actual power-granting Hemalurgy. The dagger used to kill Jezrien works on the same cosmere mechanics as Hemalurgy...

Also, bronze pulses can't be totally "active radar" (bronze burning being the only actual source of pulses) given the WoB about Ruin's power creating pulses, I think

True, but Odium IIRC specifically was trying *not* to Invest in planets much (at least historically). I don't think he wanted to Invest to a level that would create a magic system (though it might be possible on Roshar *now*, with the Pure Tones thing). Odium's "people" on Braize are Cognitive Shadows and spren, who probably don't use a "magic system" in the same sense humans do. So a Braize-native Odium magic probably was never invented/discovered/actualized/whatever. (If it did exist, sure, it would work on Roshar.)

Yes, I think so.

The more I think about it, I'm tending to think there probably is no pure-Odium magic system, at least in the usual sense of magic system as something humans use. Odium is primarily Invested in Braize, which doesn't have any "living" Physical Realm inhabitants, I think. Now that Odium's Tone has become one of the True Tones of Roshar, maybe he's Invested there enough to create a magic system of his own - but I don't think it's appeared yet. Voidbinding is historically known, so not that.

IMO investiture detection is probably a standard cosmere mechanic... the primary difference I see is that Allomancy detects Allomancy by default and potentially any Kinetic Investiture while Nalthian life sense detects souls/Breath which are more passive or static (Innate Investiture?) "Sixth of the Dusk" also has a detection machine...

To me that still sounds kind of like Odium + Honor rather than pure-Odium, even if we accept that Passion is really what Odium is (I doubt it; I think that's more Odium's own propaganda. Odium may be a bit broader than just Hatred, but it's clearly not all emotion, I don't know; of the five systems we really understand the Initiation for, three are extremely direct and straightforward connections - Awakening's connection to Endowment (Breaths must be given by intent), Hemalurgy's connection to Ruin (power must be stolen at a loss - entropy), and Surgebinding's connection to Honor (a bond is formed by oaths). Allomancy's a bit more of a stretch (external source allowing one to Preserve one's own strength), but I think the "survival" aspect of Snapping is also at play here. Feruchemy is less direct, but it's a 'balance magic' between two Shards, so we probably shouldn't expect it to directly reflect either Shard's intent. I don't think we know enough about how the Shaod works for AonDor or how people get the talent for Sand Mastery to judge those two systems. We know even less about the other Selish magic systems - but anyway these are also two-shard systems (due to the nature of the Dor I assume AonDor probably is too rather than being pure-Devotion, but who knows, guess AonDor could be all Aona & Dakhor all Skai/Dominion, but since there are more than three Selish systems I doubt it's that simple as it is on Scadrial).

Personally, I doubt it. I don't think there is a pure Odium system, at least not one we've seen mentioned or hinted at. I think voidbinding is probably Honor + Odium or maybe Honor + Cultivation + Odium. If Renarin is Voidbinding, the Initiation of that system still would involve binding spren, which is a Honor kind of thing. A pure Odium system would presumably have an Initiation based on negative emotions (hate, fury, etc.) or enmity with someone/something or maybe based on shattering, dividing, or destroying part of yourself?

I have a feeling something slightly weirder is going on, personally, related to the timelessness of the Spiritual Realm. I think currently Dalinar -- while bonded to the Stormfather, the largest Splinter of Honor as well as Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow -- doesn't actually himself hold any Investiture other than what's normal for a Knight Radiant; but when he does his 'uniting the realms' thing he is getting effects from something in his future. I'm thinking either holding a Dawnshard with the Command "Unite" or "Bind", or being the Vessel of a reforged Honor or a Shard of "Unity" created by re-Connecting the Splinters of Honor in a different way. I favor the first, personally - the comment in the epigraph about the Dawnshard known to bind all creatures mortal or voidish suggests the presence of a Dawnshard on Roshar other than Rysn's "Change" one. True, but before the death of Tanavast/Honor, the spren that were Splinters of Honor were still part of Honor. The Investiture that was actively being an honorspren couldn't be used for something else at the same time, but he wasn't diminished so much as that part of his power was "committed".

I wonder if, assuming it's really "internal", allomantic copper ends up with its apparently external effect by strengthening the part of the Allomancer that Nalthian life sense, etc., detects in order to create static.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Endowment uses future sight pretty heavily, as the Returned are all future-sight-y (not just the purpose of their Return, but their ability to see prophetic things in art as well). I agree a lot of the Returned seem to have no hope of accomplishing much (e.g. the Idrian ones), but we don't know what Endowment's actual goals are. I believe someone suggested that Endowment might Return basically random people because if she only Returned ones important to her plans, it might be easy to figure out what those plans are.

Maybe, but I am honestly not sure. Apparently the Wolf Dream thing is only permanent for wolves*, so I am not sure that we can necessarily assume that a Hero of the Horn between reincarnations is on the same metaphysical situation as a living human entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh. Interview: Apr 15th, 2013 Reddit AMA 2013 (Verbatim) ShakaUVM () If people can be removed from the Wheel by dying in the Wolf Dream or the Dream World when they're there in person, how is it that there are any people left, if there's been an infinite number of turns of the Wheel? Brandon Sanderson They actually can't. That only works on wolves, regardless of what some people think in-world. I thought like you do, but Maria was quite firm that RJ said it couldn't happen, even in the World of Dreams. (Or even with balefire—which I thought would also remove people. Maria explained that I was wrong, and RJ was firm on this one too.) Tags balefire, tel'aran'rhiod, wolves, souls, the wheel, If there is any way at all to permanently remove souls, then there must be new ones added, if the cycle can repeat infinitely. *and even then there may be a way out: Interview: Feb 22nd, 2013 AMOL Signing Report - J. Dauro (Verbatim) Question Can the anti-balefire weave restore threads to the Pattern? Brandon Sanderson Yes, it repairs threads to the Pattern. The threads may not be exactly the same, but it does repair them. Question So does that mean Hopper could the next time in this cycle? Brandon Sanderson I can't speak for Hopper, other than, I have hope. Tags balefire, weaves, the pattern, a memory of light, threads, hopper,

I believe balefire does not actually permanently destroy the soul, it just keeps the Dark One from transferring Forsaken souls since it kills them "back in time" so by the time the Dark One knows to look, the soul has already passed on. So if Moridin balefired himself he'd still reincarnate, I think.

This is not entirely explained, I think intentionally ... the possibility of re-uniting Honor may be part of the Stormlight Archive plot, or if not, I think it's at least a plausible red herring - Odium's "WE KILLED YOU" may imply that Dalinar is on the path to reunite Honor. (I personally lean in the 'red herring' direction). But we do know that Investiture can't really be created or destroyed (though it can be converted to other forms) - it seems that what is really happening is that when the Shard is Splintered, its identity (Identity?) is changed so it no longer exists as one thing that can be held by an individual, but instead as many separate entities. Honor's Investiture is in Stormlight in the highstorm and in spren; a Physical Realm person can bond a spren, but the spren remains a separate identity, and you surely can't bond all the spren containing Honor's Investiture at once. A Shard can have Splinters without being Splintered as such - Divine Breath are Splinters of Endowment, and honorspren existed before Honor was killed - so reuniting Honor wouldn't necessarily involve killing all the honorspren and other spren with parts of Honor's Investiture, but it would probably involve some kind of crazy Connection/Identity/etc work plus inhaling a highstorm or most of the Stormlight in the world or something ... maybe? but that would seem parallel to [MIstborn: Hero of Ages/Secret History spoilers]

Hmm, I wonder what this part means: Does that mean that you can't split the Shardblade alloy into pure Tanavastium and (Koravarium? or whatever Cultivation's godmetal would be called) by regular metallurgic processes?

Maybe the earring was only mostly coated in silver, but the tip was not? Ruin was influencing Vin's mother, she could have worn the silver off the tip... Hmm, so are regular real-world ear piercings bloodless? Perhaps the moving blood bit is only really critical for stealing power, it just has to be 'in the body' at the right bind point to grant power?

Maybe there are actually 3 levels of "in the body" needed (stealing power from original owner vs. granting power to recipient vs. just preventing hemalurgic decay)? Vin's earring is granting power, not stealing power, and it was probably in contact with blood at the beginning, but a pierced ear heals so there is no continuing contact with blood. Or maybe there are just two levels (stealing power vs. everything else), and a steak or a jar of blood just can't meaningfully gain a power?

Yes, exactly. I meant that the difference between Jasnah's approach to the world and that of other Radiants/other people is a qualitative difference (she looks at the world in a fundamentally different way) not just a quantitative difference (e.g. she is more emotionally resilient than most people). Not saying this is necessarily correct, but that's what I thought the implication was... (Oathbringer chapter 47) This chapter is probably our best insight so far into who Jasnah actually is vs. the role she is nearly always playing. My 'rational/emotional divide' phrasing is probably actually not the right wording, Jasnah says she's not really that much less emotional than other people... A better way to phrase what I really meant is that she doesn't seem to have the tendency/temptation toward wishful thinking/denial or the cognitive biases that most people do. She always faces the facts as they are - "You think by facts". This is IMO probably a result of having trained herself this way, since it seems that her core fear is of insanity, so she has probably focused her self-image around rationality.

I agree that's why blood matters. Perhaps blood is needed if the spike isn't otherwise deep in the body (e.g. earrings)?