cometaryorbit

Its more that I think Heralds era Roshar was actually pretty primitive, and much later-discovered knowledge is attributed incorrectly to them by modern Rosharans. Taldain was iirc the first cosmere world to really go technological, so I think Ashyn science/tech way back then was actually quite limited (though they had powerful Surgebinding or something similar). Perhaps he hasn't made as much strides as I was making it sound, but it's more... and this may be just me rather than anything really true about the book... how they *discuss* mental health in RoW feels much more modern than it does beginnings-of-psychology (say Freud era), in word choice and attitudes etc.

I have similar objections, but not for exactly the same reasons. The visibility of rotspren lets Rosharans discover what herbs etc work against infections without needing to actually understand germ theory. So their understanding physical medicine better than mental health actually makes sense in world. But even if we accept an early germ theory level of medical knowledge for Roshar... early psychiatry on Earth was really primitive & often pretty harmful. It would still mean Kaladin has jumped something like 100-150 years of development in a year all by himself. I don't think it's just giving something for Kaladin to do though... Roshar in general, or at least the Alethi/Urithiru, seem to be advancing excessively fast. Jasnah's social changes, Navani's technology, Kaladin's mental health stuff etc. Now great crises can lead to rapid development (eg WWII) but this seems too much even for that. It's only been, what, a year and a half since the Everstorm arrived? For most of WOK/WOR there was no obvious disruption to most of the world. And WWII happened in a time when science was well established, whereas Rosharan science and magitech is pretty early days. And in Well of Ascension Elend's social changes had huge difficulties in a world which was at least as disrupted. That felt more realistic to me. (Do we know that "Wisdom of the Heralds" is actually from the Heralds vs just lore? So much knowledge has been lost that I kind of doubt it.)

Yeah pretty much. People who want to dig into the underlying Cosmere stuff probably tend to have that personality type. (I'm totally Truthwatcher as well.)

Hmm, the more I think about it, it's not so much that I disagree it's related to Surges -- it often is, maybe even usually is -- I just don't think it's a firm rule. Non-sapient spren that don't grant Surges can still appear in the Physical, and some of them move (while others appear as growing or bubbling out of a surface, etc.) And maybe Cryptic motion is kind of related to Illumination, but it seems a loose connection. I'd say that how a spren manifests in the Physical Realm is related to the concept it represents, which is *linked* to its Surges (for a spren that grants Surges) but not identical to or limited to those Surges. So lightspren are less limited by things like gravity because they represent/are linked to light, not because they use Gravitation to fly. On the other hand, while I don't think Syl is actually Surgebinding Gravitation to fly, her ability to fly is related to the kind of spren she is/her concept and thus related to the Surges she grants Kaladin. And the Surges as concepts are broader than the specific Radiant Surgebinding abilities, and the spren can be referred to as "living Surges". So maybe it is based on Surges in that broader more conceptual sense, just not the specific magic system of Surgebinding?

I think in the Dragonsteel Prime sample chapters, the Shattered Plains were due to the non-dragonsteel-infused rock eroding (leaving canyons) while the Dragonsteel-infused rock didn't erode (leaving plateaus). That's pre-Shattering anyway so it can't be a scar from the Shattering of Adonalsium. -- I don't think Dalinar now could connect a planet to the sun, but that kind of thing might not be out of scope: Khriss calls Ashyn "the burning planet" in a roughly Stormlight era essay in AU, ~8000 Earth years after the cataclysm: even Unbound Cohesion nuclear fission wouldn't leave a planet burning that long after the fact: cratered yes, radioactive possibly (depending on what was fissioned/what isotopes were created), but not still on fire. -- There's a WoB that the Dawncities and Shattered Plains are beyond what regular Radiant Surgebinding can do but not beyond Surgebinding in general. It's not 100% confirmation but imo a pretty strong implication.

Progression is growth and healing, not speed. Abrasion (Edgedancers' other Surge) can increase speed by reducing friction, though. Some Spren can clearly use Surge related effects, but I don't think it's a particularly 'standardized' system. And I don't think everything they do is Surge related - Pattern appears under/in the surfaces of things and he doesn't grant Cohesion. Spren (except when manifested as Blades/Plate/ancient fabrials) are only slightly present in the Physical realm, so I think they can ignore things like gravity and solidity without needing Surges.

What I was saying is that Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow isn't available to be merged with Taln, since it's already merged with the Stormfather. If you're asking why the SF isn't more helpful if he knows everything Tanavast knew... well, he's also (and originally) a spren, and is only coming to think like a human slowly, through the bond. Tanavast-Honor was apparently pretty warped by human standards near the end, too, due to both Shard Intent (caring only about oaths being kept and not their content) and the drawn-out process of Shard death-- so his Cognitive Shadow wouldn't necessarily help the Stormfather think like a normal (not warped by a Shard) human. At the end of WoR the Stormfather was basically "ok, we're doomed now, might as well wipe everything out with a giant highstorm". He's honestly not very helpful. Or even terribly consistent.. in OB he says basically "oh sure the contest of champions will work! It was Honor's idea" . OK so why were you so convinced there was no hope just recently?

It seems like the progress bars haven't updated in a while.

Also, we don't know how much leeway Honor had - could he edit detailed aspects of how each Surge works, or was he more limited? If he did something broader like limiting Spiritual Realm powers of Surgebinding, the same action might have impeded Unchained Bondsmith super-powers and Truthwatcher future-sight. -- Do we actually know that the prohibition on attempting to divine the future goes back to Silver Kingdoms era? It used to be suggested that that was a Sunmaker invention. -- Honor might not have expected that the greater, more dangerous Surgebinding powers were needed. It's not clear exactly what the Honorblades are even for, given that the Heralds have to be dead to do their job of Isolating the Fused on Braize, but according to the Stormfather, Honor thought the Oathpact was a permanent solution to the Fused, and also the Fused didn't originally have Surges. So if the limitations on Surgebinding were added when Honor set up the Heralds, he wouldn't have expected the greater abilities to be needed.

I was thinking more like visions of possible future versions of specific people being normal Truthwatcher ability, whereas Renarin's expansive uncontrollable future visions being an Enlightened/Voidbinding thing. Hmm, the visions being a "Truthwatcher Unchained" post-Honor-death thing would fit. I still think the uncontrollable nature of it is probably the Voidbinding influence though, since it's similar to Death Rattles.

Future sight might also be a combined use of Illumination and Progression, the way a Reverse Lashing combines Gravitation and Adhesion. Adolin gets a vision of his 'ideal self' when healed by Renarin, which makes me think that the visions aren't pure Illumination. OTOH, Shallan sketches things that are really happening elsewhere, so some degree of 'visions' may be available to Lightweavers as well, though not future visions per se. Given the ideal-self thing with Adolin, I'm not sure these things are as distinct as all that: the Spiritual is timeless, so insight into someone's Spiritual aspect should include insight into their past and possible futures. I agree that normal Truthwatchers probably have much less extensive future sight than Renarin, and the uncontrollable nature of his visions is also weird and probably Voidbinding related. But I do think normal Truthwatchers have some ability to perceive possible futures through the Spiritual side of their abilities. -- EDIT: Have we ever seen a normal Truthwatcher do anything except heal? We haven't seen much of them at all. Most Radiants learn one of their Surges before the other. Renarin's vision of what Moash could have been is reminiscent of (Mistborn) I think that is totally in line with seeing someone's Spiritual aspect.

I believe Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow merged with the Stormfather (making him a Sliver as well as a Splinter).

Yeah, pretty much. Wayne is like Kelsier in Era 1 to me (though for different reasons) - very entertaining to read about but not the kind of person I'd want to spend time around if they existed in RL. Philosophically I'm closer to Marasi, and she's probably the one I'd most enjoy having lunch with. MeLaan's attitude towards people viewing her as a religious figure is hilarious. I really like the Wax/Marasi philosophy contrast on society and the law, and the way Wax and Steris click in BoM... ...yeah, I didn't really 'get' Steris until the very last scene of SoS, but she's great in BoM.

Maybe Odium becoming more Invested in Roshar (the whole "Pure Tone" thing) granted Sja-anat more Connection to Rosharan spren? Or - possibly more likely- Ba-ado-Mishram's imprisonment made sapient spren more changeable (in the same way that it made them deadeye-able)? I am not sure how much weight we can put on the cultural idea that future sight is of the enemy/Voidbinding: future sight is a general Spiritual Realm thing that isn't in any way exclusive to Odium. I think it's still very unknown whether normal Truthwatchers had future sight or not.

I think at least an Honorblade (pure "tanavastium") would have to be a viable metal for the Metallic Arts. Whether it's too Invested to actually store in, is another question. I don't think we know whether the metal of Shardblades made from Honor/Cultivation combined spren would count as "alloys" for the Metallic Arts (thus having 'wrong percentage' problems), or whether they'd count as their own new godmetal (Splinter-metal). Harmonium/ettmetal is technically not an alloy. Not actually confirmed, but this WoB would suggest granting the associated magic is at least a possible effect of lerasium/non-Scadrian godmetal alloys: Stormlightning If Hoid was to get his hands on "bavadinium," could he alloy it with lerasium and get Sand Mastery? Brandon Sanderson This is theoretically possible. FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018) Not sure how that would work in this case due to the bond based nature of Surgebinding though.

Also, I actually don't think Tanavast did go Beyond - he did leave a Cognitive Shadow which somehow merged with the Stormfather.

I think Lifeless are a slightly different case. Less mind control and more analogous to creating a robot programmed to follow orders... although apparently there are ways to get a Lifeless to have more of a 'mind of its own' (Clod?) so in those cases it might approach mind control. I think the only cases we've seen where pre-existing people can be outright controlled into doing specific things are people/beings whose souls are heavily compromised by Hemalurgy: Steel Inquisitors, kandra, and koloss (and, apparently, people in Era 2 with 4+ spikes). Emotional influence is more common: in Mistborn, Rioting and Soothing; in Stormlight, the Thrill and Ashertmarn's "revel" effect, the deadening of emotions we see in Moash, and the inflamed emotions due to holding Voidlight (possibly also the 'push to action' from holding Stormlight). In Warbreaker, Drabs are prone to depression so holding Breath probably has some emotional effect too; and I think Returned have some kind of calming presence? Cultivation's changes to Dalinar and Taravangian are something different again, I think, both because they voluntarily asked to be changed and because it was a one-time change to their selves rather than ongoing external influence.

I was thinking of Braize as a precedent there, yeah, and of the large amount of Investiture available on this planet, but you're right that it's unlikely.

Most of my favorites have already been posted (Hoid's "You will be warm again" to Kaladin in RoW, "There's always another secret") but I'll throw in: "I am hope." - Kelsier I know Kelsier had complex and not entirely altruistic motives, but being willing to sacrifice himself there and being able to stand up and be a symbol of hope, without showing fear, is impressive.

Yes, new planets beyond the "dozens" inhabited as of Secret History will probably be settled in space age cosmere. The SP#4 planet is probably one: I doubt it has a native population (at least of humans or anything close: there could be spren/seon equivalents) as it seems you need to either be underground or fast-moving (flying) to survive there. There's a WoB that evolution is faster in the cosmere because of Investiture, so I'm not sure we can assume that the Drominad system has to be millions of years old. It totally could be, but I think the possibility that Adonalsium created the universe or at least the cosmere star cluster* in geologically recent times is still live. (Vasher/Zahel does say that some planets are older than others, which we knew anyway because Scadrial, and that fossils exist, but that's about it.) There's probably Investiture to some degree on every planet in the cosmere star cluster, not just populated ones, yeah. I agree that Aviars probably predate Autonomy having an Avatar on First of the Sun, but I don't think that's confirmed. (There is a WoB that that magic could happen without a Shard's direct involvement, which leans in that direction, but "could" isn't the same as "did".) Autonomy likely created an Avatar from Autonomy-aligned Investiture left on the planet in Pre-Shattering times. *(As far as I know, while we've been told in Dawnshard that Adonalsium "created the cosmere" using the Dawnshards, that's kind of ambiguous. Did Adonalsium create the entire universe, or just create the cosmere star cluster in the same way Ruin+Preservation created Scadrial? Apparently per WoB the 'core' Aethers claim to not be derived from Adonalsium; they could be lying or wrong, but maybe they're "aliens" from beyond the cosmere star cluster?)

I think "inspired by Lovecraft" there means the form of the names, not necessarily a connection to a specific Lovecraftian entity.

Ah, ok.

In theory, possibly if you got someone who knows fabrial mechanics to Threnody. Although it might take extra steps: Kalak says in the RoW epigraphs that you can't trap a Herald in a gem (they just go Beyond due to lack of valid Connections) so depending on how Threnodite Shades work, you might need some Connection forming ability.

Yes exactly. Ulim was on Roshar well before TWOK so things were building to a Desolation. What I'm suggesting is that at around the end of TWOK (or somewhat earlier if it takes time for a Herald to travel from Braize to Roshar) it reached a "critical point" and the Return or Desolation officially began, kicking Taln back to Roshar. Historically the Heralds did arrive before the Fused.

Energy in the physics sense yes, Investiture no. The amount of Breath doesn't increase.