zeppomarks

Ok, so this is 100% speculation. There is absolutely zero evidence for this, but I'm posting it anyway because I had a lot of fun creating it. I took the general idea of the Allomantic table of elements, tweaked it to fit more in line with my interpretation of Shards (since internal, external, pushing, and pulling didn't really work) and started plugging in Shards. Enjoy. ||============||=============|=============||=============|============||=============|| || Physical || Mercurial | Static || Static | Mercurial || Cognitive || ||============||=============|=============||=============|============||=============|| || Active || Metamorphosis | Torpor || Honor | Autonomy || Active || ||-------------------||---------------------|---------------------||--------------------|--------------------||---------------------|| || Inactive || Decay | Dominion || Justice | Odium || Inactive || ||============||=============|=============||=============|============||=============|| || Inactive || Potential | Devotion || Patience | Progress || Inactive || ||-------------------||---------------------|---------------------||--------------------|--------------------||---------------------|| || Active || Cultivation | Endowment || Preservation | Ruin || Active || ||============||=============|=============||=============|============||=============|| || Spiritual || Mercurial | Static || Static | Mercurial || Temporal || ||============||=============|=============||=============|============||=============|| I can explain my reasoning for all of this later, but right now I need to head out. Let me know what you think! And remember, I'd be astonished if a single bit of this is real. It's just for kicks.

K. So, we have two examples of a planet graced by Odium's ickiness. Sel and Roshar. Three out of four shardbearers dead, but that Cultivation... She's sure being a bother with the whole refusing-to-die thing. Let's list some facts before we get to speculating. 1. All shards hold roughly equivalent power. 2. Odium killed two shardbearers on Sel, but is having trouble with one (and a half?) SB(s?) on Roshar. 3. Odium has not invested in Roshar (because, one, he doesn't want to be attached to a planet and, two, the very act would drain his power irrevocably like it did to Leras) yet his influence is very clearly felt there. 4. Preservation, Odium, and Cultivation are gifted with precognition, whereas Honor and Ruin are not. I have no idea where the rest stand, though I'm assuming Endowment has this ability since, I believe the Returned have some level of sensitivity to this or something similar (still need to read Warbreaker). Alright, I'd like to get a tiny, mostly unrelated, hypothesis out of the way before proceeding to the larger one. I think that the reason Odium is having so much trouble with Cultivation is twofold. One: Obviously, it's heavily implied that Honor did something to snare Odium on, presumably, Braize. But two: Both Odium and Cultivation can glimpse the future. This is the first time, that we know of, that two shards with a strong affinity for prescience have come into conflict. Honor had trouble with it and the Intents of Devotion and Dominion don't seem to allow any clear reasoning why they might be adept at it. However, Tanavast mentioned that Cultivation was good at it. My point is, I think that Odium, while already severely hampered by Honor, is locked in what would be the shard equivalent to an Atium duel. Both shards can see what the other one might do before they do it, so neither can really make a move without letting the other gain advantage. Alright, on to the bigger hypothesis. I think I might know how Odium is killing shards that should be just as powerful as he is. I think that Odium can, somehow, corrupt the Investiture of other shards. And possibly even the Intent of a shard, as long as that shard has no holder to guide it. Let's start with Sel. You have Aona's Seons and the Skaze who are "related to Skai". The wording is important there. Nothing about Dominion, except the Skaze, seems outright evil. I believe that, before Odium arrived, Dominion's influence on Sel was limited to defining what part of the world each magic system would be confined to, benign Skaze, and maybe a couple of other minor things. Then, Odium began corrupting Dominion, almost like poison or a disease. Not expending Investiture in any permanent way. Just pushing on Dominion's Investiture. Dominion would have to Invest more and more into his splinters to keep them from being corrupted, until Skai eventually falls to Odium's disease-poison. After, Dominion splinters, the manifestations of the Shard's Investiture continue to be corrupted. Now the Skaze are influencing Wyrn and the rest of Fjorden and the Shu-Dereth religion through prophecy. Like I said earlier, there doesn't seem to be any reason for Dominion to have had prescience, although Odium does. Of course, the prophecies might have been fabrications of the Skaze to get Fjorden to conquer. However, even this possibility lends itself to my hypothesis. Why would Dominion's splinters want to take over the world? The Fjordell Empire has only been following the Shu-Dereth for 300 years prior to the Reod. This most likely means that they began convincing Fjorden to conquer sometime after Dominion's splintering. Just as the Seons are devoted to their owner, the Skaze should have carried on as intended after Dominion got splintered. Unless, with no holder to interpret the Shard's Intent and Odium's corruption of the splinters going rampant, the splinters began interpreting the Shard's Intent in the most maleficent way possible. I believe that Skai had interpreted Dominion's Intent as defining dominions for nations by giving each region it's own magic system, but the Odium-corrupted Skaze are interpreting the Intent in in a far more general and dangerous way. Control. This is why they are using prophecies that say that Jaddeth will only return once the entire world worships him. The splintered, corrupted shard of Dominion wants to control everything. As for Devotion, I don't believe Odium had to do anything after killing Dominion. Devotion saw what happened to Dominion and, being devoted to her world and it's people, decided to splinter herself so that the Selish people might have a chance only having to deal with one corrupted set of splinters. Who knows what might have happened if Devotion had become corrupted as well. Although, it may be possible that, instead of splintering herself, she may have just done something similar to Preservation, where she invested herself into Sel so hard that she died, either effectively or actually. No one knows who built Elantris and it's four cities. Maybe Elantris is the solid manifestation of Devotion's body? I don't know, either way, I think Devotion eliminated herself. After a few centuries or so of rest, Odium packs his bags and heads toward Roshar. Again, we have evidence of manifestations of native Investiture being corrupted. Now this part will be far less detailed because there is way less and, at the same time, way more information to deal with here. Odium gets to Roshar and begins work on corrupting Honor's investiture, various types of Spren. Of course, this is assuming that the Spren are similar to Feruchemy, in that they are not a manifestation of a single Shard, but the result of both. Like I said, while there's more in text information in SA, there's also less WoB due to Sanderson being more tight-lipped about the details. Because of the more active and confrontational nature of Roshar and it's form of Investiture, this corruption begins the Desolations. The Knights Radiant and their bonded Spren are less affected by Odium due to Surgebinding and Nahel bonds having humans to anchor them. Unbonded Spren, no matter how powerful, are more susceptible to Odium's influence and are easily corrupted. Similarly, beings that pre-existed the arrival of Honor, Cultivation, and humans (such as chasmfiends and the Listeners) are also more easily corrupted. Precisely why, I am unsure, but the pattern fits. Eventually, Honor dies, the Oathpact is broken, and the Day of Recreance occurs. We still have no idea why these things happened exactly or why any of this has kept another Desolation from coming for 4500 years when, according to my calculations which I'll deal with in another post, there should have been only about 300 years between Desolations. Either way, I think we're still seeing the effect of Odium's corruption on Honor's intent. Aside from the Unmade and certain Odium-aligned spren, the people of Roshar have a twisted sense of what honor is. They think it has to do with war and violence and other trivialities that people often associate with honor. However looking at Surgebinding, the Orders of the Knights Radiant, and Spren shows that Tanavast's interpretation of Honor had far more to do with fulfilling obligations than it did with conflict of any kind. Sure, it's very effective in combat, but so is Preservation's Allomancy and we know that killing acts against his Intent. Granted, this specific corruption of Honor's Intent could easily be explained by the fact that their humans and humans do terrible things sometimes, but with phenomena like the Thrill and the inordinate amount of warring that occurs throughout Roshar, it's definitely more than "humans being human". I think this is all I have right now. At least, it's all my brain will give me. I've been working on this for the last few hours. lol I need coffee. I have another theory, but it would rebuff almost everything I've said here and there's far less information pointing to it, so I wanted to get this one out before I send out the next one. Let me know what y'all think and where I made obvious mistakes, please and thank you. Have a goodun

Lol. I've noticed a lot of people doing that on this forum and in Q&As and such. Definitely increases the likelihood of me reading those novels soon, if only so I can understand what folks are talking about.

If Preservation is given full control over a thing, like metal, then that metal would never rust. It would stay the same way forever. If Ruin is given full control over the metal, it would be destroyed faster than it naturally should. However, if the metal is freed from the influence of both Ruin and Preservation it would go about the natural process of rusting. Now, if we extrapolate from this to consider said metal to be a metaphor for the people of Scadrial, "Rust" could be a reference to Trell's desire to free the Scadrians from Harmony's influence so that they can go about their existences proceeding down a more "natural" path, without divine intervention. This interpretation, it seems to me, lends further credence to the Trell-Autonomy connection.

@Darkness Ascendant Thanks. Yeah, I'll probably get to them eventually. I'm just concerned I'll spend the entire time wishing they were Cosmere-related and ruin the experience for myself, which would be unfair to Sanderson. I'll probably wait until there's a sufficient lull in the Cosmere books and pick up some of those.

@Djarskublar I was wondering about this exact same thing, like, two hours ago. The only thing I can think of with the limited amount of data we have on Frost is that he's confusing correlation with causality, or at least just letting his personal feeling get in the way of seeing what Hoid is trying to do. Hoid is always on a planet right before everything goes to Rust, messing around and interfering with things. And because he's showing up in the middle of a fantasy novel's plot, it's almost always a few short years away from some sort of apocalypse. So all Frost sees is Hoid skipping around the Cosmere and leaving planets right before they almost implode/explode/replode/unplode. Basically, all Frost sees is a meddlesome fool who never stops disaster, but always seems to precede it. Since he has taken a stance of noninterference, it makes sense that he would think Hoid is exacerbating the situation.

Interesting. I hadn't seen that before. Although, if that's the case then that would mean there would have been a Desolation every 60 years or so. Given how many people die in a Desolation, it seems impossible that Roshar could have repopulated fast enough between them. Granted, even at 9 Desolations they'd have one every 660-670 years if my math is right. Repopulation seems unlikely even on that scale. But there's also this: https://www.facebook.com/groups/270545169744383/permalink/731811053617790/ Although, the Heralds go back after each Desolation to get tortured in Hell or where ever. The Knights Radiant might have been able to, assuming they knew any more about science then other Rosharan's, but I'm assuming they were in pretty rough shape after each Desolation.

Triple thanks! For the welcome, the upvote, and the link. Although, I realized I misrepresented myself a bit in my intro. I haven't read anything outside of the Cosmere yet. He's produced so much in the last ten years, that I often forget he's done anything non-Cosmere. That alone is more than I'd expect from ten years of a writers content. Way more.

@Jondesu That's a good question, actually. I read it a couple days ago and now I can't for the life of me find it. I can't even remember who put it forth to give them credit... Maybe someone else on here can remember. But basically the theory came down to time. The facts we know are that Desolations have been known to kill off ~90% of Roshar's population, set technology back an age (bronze to iron or iron to stone), and at least one lasted 11 years. Given the time that it would take to repopulate and readvance in tech, each Desolation has to have at least 1000 years between them. I don't remember how the length of Desolations fit into it, but I remember they were a part of it. But if each Desolation was separated by ~1000 years then 99 Desolations plus the time since the Heralds dipped out means that Odium has been assaulting Roshar for over 100,000 years. Which means that Dominion and Devotion died over 100,000 years ago, too. Adonalsium would have had to be broken 100k+ years ago. It's likely Scadrial would have been created around the same time (or at the most several thousand years afterward), but then some how taken all that time to get to steam engines (apparently there's WoB that they were entering the industrial age prior to TLR) even though it only took them ~340 years to go from a renaissance-esque age to full on industrial. The whole timescale just reads false if there had actually been 99 Desolations. If there were only 9, the timeline would be far more manageable, the True Desolation would be Desolation numero 10 (and we all know how Roshar is with 10s), and some other stuff that I can't really remember... I really wish I knew where that post was. That person's argument was far more detailed and elegant than this Quasimodo of logic. The theory went on to postulate that the reason everyone thinks there have been 99 Desolations is because during the Hierocracy the Ardents were like, "'9' is a doodoo number... No symmetry whatsoever! How about '99'? Yeah? Better? Sweet, done and done. Let's get lunch. No braised longroot this time. Didn't stop '9'ing for an hour. Get it? Cause '9' is doodoo? Like what I said earlier? Ha! Ardent humor is the bees knees." Ahem... The trascript for that conversation went a little long... Anywho, that was the general, horribly-mutilated gist of the theory. Someone's theory. Not mine. Mine aren't nearly as well thought out or plausible.

Oh, also, is there a place where I can see the thresholds for the various Community Reputation titles? Metrics like that are always interesting to me. P.S. Kudos for whoever made the theme for that. I love it.

I've been blowing up the theories forum for a couple days now, so I guess I should introduce myself. lol I'm Brian, but any form of my username works fine. Zep, zepp, zeppo, Monsieur Marks, omar, ppoma, whatever. Spent nine years in the Air Force and am currently back in college trying to become a high school English teacher. I'm a writer, though the quality of my writing is still being... let's say "refined". Though, I'm always willing to yap curious people into a coma about my writing, but usually only when they ask. Usually. I started reading Sanderson's stuff about 6 months ago and have blown through most of it. Currently on my second read through. Can't get enough. Still need to read The Hope of Elantris, Secret History, Warbreaker, White Sand, and Sixth of the Dusk. I've spent a couple months lurking the site and had to join so I had someone to talk to about these books. My friends and family have only just started reading them a couple weeks ago (at my relentless insistence) and are still on Mistborn Era 1. They're loving it though, as is appropriate for tasteful society. lol Glad to be here!

Another one. I know it's been put forth that there were probably only 9 desolations in the past, and I think this theory has a lot of merit and is probably correct. But I noticed that it's often, possibly always, enumerated in the book as "ninety and nine desolations". It seems unlikely, but do you all think that the "ninety" could be in reference to something else? It's probably just an edit made by Vorin Ardents, but the phrasing could imply more. Maybe a translation error made a long time ago? Maybe something removed to obscure information? "Ninety [redacted] and nine desolations." I know I'm probably looking deeper into it than is necessary but, if y'all haven't noticed yet, that's kinda my jam. lol

@Djarskublar @Rasarr Ha! That's awesome. I'm really looking forward to seeing that place in action. I mean, one of my favorite parts in WoK is the first interlude where you get to see Demoux and Galladon interact, and that's just a taste of the awesome the the Restaurant could provide.

Time for more pointless hypotheses! Do you all think that the shards of the Cosmere will eventually come back together, controlled by a single entity, or will they simply balance out in the end controlled by, say, 10 entities (since 10 and 16 seem to be the numbers of choice in the Cosmere) a la Harmony? Or is there some other possibility? I'm not sure what could balance Odium. Maybe Honor. But Odium seems too unwieldy to be balanced by anything. Like, how do you temper hatred without eliminating it? Combine Honor and Odium and what would you get? Justice, maybe? A shard of Righteous Indignation? I don't know, thinking aloud. What do y'all think? Also, who, if anyone, do you think will get the shard of Honor in the end? Dalinar seems like the most likely candidate, with Kaladin taking second place. However, Mistborn Era 1 shattered my ability to assume my assumptions to be correct. Although, I could see Kaladin getting the shard of Righteous Indignation. He has enough Honor and Odium to be able to justify it. Thoughts, considerations, half rotten fruit to throw? I'm accepting all submissions.

@Djarskublar Lol, I missed your tranquility idea earlier. I think that would actually be pretty interesting. I'd love to read a novel where a shard gets shattered by a mortal. The malcontent's name? Taravangian Bickle? Holden Kalfield? Somehow combining Vin with V from "V for Vendetta" and making sense? V-in? Veen? This is the first I've heard about the restaurant at the end of the cosmere, but I like where this is going. Where might I find it, pray tell?

This is fascinating... I definitely see the parallels between gold allomancy and soulstamping.

@Djarskublar Well that's interesting. Is that WoB, or did I miss it in the books?

Yeah, now that I think of it, I really doubt he has a shard. I was thinking, "why would Hoid try to get help from someone without a shard?" then I thought, "Hoid doesn't even have a shard, sucka!" Plus, how do you send a letter to a divinity? It's not like Harm's got a p.o. box or something. Haha...ha...hm... I got it! Cosmere Postal Service. CPS. Bad acronym, consider revision, moving on. We can put a coffee shop inside. Shardbucks? Terrible... Taln's Scarbucks? Way worse... We'll get back to that later. Either way, I think we've just found a money maker, ladies and gentlemen.

@Jondesu I'm rereading WoK right now and I totally forgot that Shallan records a bunch of Shardblades in WoR. I think you're onto something there. I was trying to find significance in the Garanid interlude, but perhaps my assumption went the wrong direction in time? Maybe it's not a clue so much with what happened in the past but will end up being a clue for the future? It still doesn't make sense to me why they would stay shardblades when they die, just because they were imitating honorblades. I feel like there's got to be more to it than that.

@Rasarr Yeah, I know.

Oh, yeah. Was pretty tired when I posted that. Still, though, hemalurgy is needed. And, I believe, you would need a lot of these alpha-medallions wouldn't you? And probably hefty amount of folks to spike, both donors and recipients. One person can only store so much of a quality at a time. Plus, there would be the added difficulty of finding the nicrosil/alluminum ferings in the first place. Not the most showy of abilities. Seems far more sensible, given the fact that you need to understand hemalurgy to get this all started, to hire one of those coinshot runners and just spike them instead of going through all that hassle to make even one medallion. Hm. I suppose you're right... But you'd need two sources of nicrosil for investiture. The, let's say Elantrian, would have to draw feruchemical investiture while simultaneously depositing AonDor investiture, right? Is that even possible? I don't believe we've ever seen anyone drawing and storing with the same feruchemical metal at the same time, have we?

I've had a suspicion for a while that there's something more to burning gold. It's brushed off way too easily by the characters for it not to smell fishy. And the fact that folks are always saying how no one fully understands it's effect... Ohh, the implications... The savant angle is interesting. We only really got to see a tin savant in action. The only thing I can think of that might directly go against your theory is the fact that Vin couldn't touch TLRs Malatium shadow, But that means next to nothing when you consider all of the other facets of this scenario. I really hope the gold ends up being something crazy awesome like this. Adjacent thought: did Vin or Miles ever attempt to directly talk to their gold shadows in the books? I can't remember precisely.

lol, it's all good. The better I understand all this stuff, the happier I'll be. I love these novels and it's why I joined the site. Well, that and I had to get all these absurd theories out and my cousin is way too far behind to talk to yet. lol That makes sense. Although, weren't all mistwraiths created when TLR changed the Terris Worldbringers into them? They can't make more mistwraiths, can they? Also, where did all the spikes from the several hundred Kandra that didn't survive the Catacenre go? This is giving me some wacky ideas, but I'll need to do some research and get some sleep before I'll feel comfortable spouting more nonsense. lol Either way, I'm still kind of curious why the Koloss got to reproduce naturally and the Kandra didn't. I wonder if that'll end up being a point of contention between Harm and the Kandra in later books. They're obviously bummed by their dwindling numbers. Oh wait... The Kandra were Feruchemists, which means they might still have the sDNA for full Feruchemy, right? Maybe that's why they're stuck where they are. Maybe Harm doesn't want anymore TLRs showing up now that allomancy and feruchemy are freely mingling. It would make sense.

Thanks. Yeah, I remember when they talked about that, but I've learned to take anything said in an early novel in a Brandon Sanderson series with a grain of salt, cause anything can change. But if they're stuck in that form they could probably still experience a spren death, or "spreath" as I'm going to call it from now on. lol.

@Djarskublar I wasn't aware of that. Is that a WoB or in one of the books? The Coppermind does say that Feruchemy was the only Metallic Art that was in "widespread use" before TLR's ascension, but there's no citation, so I have no idea where that info comes from. Any help would be appreciated.