kais

So in the space of two days, various people on this forum have argued for tone policing minorities, claimed #notallwhites, willingly, knowingly posted a video that directly mocks pronoun issues, proclaimed that Jewish people aren't white (just say that out loud. Really. Say it out loud. Do you feel like a racist? You are.), and that the alt-right aren't Nazis. If you, as a poster or an observer, are wondering why marginalized people can't speak to you calmly and just explain things and their side, maybe take a hard look at this thread. At every turn, either my gender or the religion that I love, has been attacked. My pain, and the pain this has caused me, has been completely swept under the rug so that cis, het, 'white' voices can be heard. I'm expected to listen to your sides, but you're not even trying to see mine. I've followed your rules, haven't I, @Ernei? And yet, where have we ended up? It took a lot for me to join this forum. It took even more courage to start subbing TWD. I really thought we were all on the same page, not necessarily with understanding, but in terms of respect. I don't care who you sleep with, what your gender is, how you show your gender, your religion, your skin melanin content, etc. You have the right to yourself, and your body, and your beliefs. What you do not have is right to degrade and tear down mine. You do not have the right to mock me. My gender, my religion, whether or not black people have the right to buy candy from a store, these are not up for debate. I expected more from this forum, and from the people I had come to see as friends. I expected more people to step in and say this was wrong. To say that I am emotionally damaged from this experience is not an exaggeration. But hey, #notallwhites, right? Or maybe #notallsffwriters ? I have fulfilled my crit obligations for this week, and now I will be stepping out. I have asked @Silk to remove me from the e-mail list. I would encourage those of you who are here to consider what type of environment, and precedent, you set in your actions, and how that reinforces the demographics of this space. There are no PoC writers here, that I am aware of, and your three queer writers have all been hurt in this exchange. You stand to lose all of us. At the very least, that does not give you a diverse crit group, instead it forms an echo chamber. If you want marginalized voices as a part of this forum, you have to start by making it a welcoming atmosphere, taking us and our concerns seriously, and above all, not belittling our struggles because hey, you're not the ones doing the marginalizing, right? Right? For those who have given me crits in the past, thank you very much. Your feedback has been very helpful. I will miss many of you.

Overall I enjoyed it! It's come a long way since last read. I agree with both @Ernei and @industrialistDragon that the kid's interactions is just fine, but none of them really stand out and grab me. Since we get lots more with them soon, might not be something to worry about. This time around I did think the politics were interesting, especially since the Aridori get covered with the kids, too. Nice work, and good on you for fixing the fungi errors! Mycologist me is pleased. As I go - I agree with @industrialistDragon that the start is pretty slow - I am sufficiently pleased with the dress description modifications. - she commended his memory to the gods is a good line! I like it a lot, but suggest, since we don't know the sex of the orator, to change to 'their' instead of 'his' - I had to go back and read to see how Veerga had insulted people. Maybe there could be a reaction from the crowd to draw it out more? Minor quibble, really. - props for third gender - Have you specifically addressed what being a Naiyul is somewhere? I know of it because I'm reading Merchants and Magi right now, but I think it would float right past me otherwise. - the council meeting made a lot more sense to me this time than last. I don't know if that is because I've read it before, or I'm reading Merchants, or you've done some clean up (or maybe all three). Regardless, I think it works well now. - Please tell me these caravan traveling twins are offspring of Prot and Amra. MAKE IT REAL. Don't make me write a band fanfic - page 12: do we get those specific, third gender words? You have me curious as to your eventual neopronoun / 'they' usage - Oh, yep, there it is! 'Zie' FTW! - Yes. Fungus eating and fungus dining establishment pass mycological review. LOVE IT!

Overall Good pacing and good meat to the story. Good progression. I got lost at the end with a few too many turns. Also I think you should move the android motivations earlier on and expound upon them some. Nice work! As I go - page 162: we're just now getting backstory on the android, and motivations. I think this should have come a lot earlier. Like, chapter two or three. - page 164: I'm not sure I'm understanding. The company moved operations to the moon so they wouldn't be under as strict of laws about employee safety? Is that right? - 164: I think Callahan's descent to death machine is too sudden. I'm not buying his motivations. It might be worth it to introduce parts of this chapter much earlier, and then show him progressively getting more and more violent, until he gets to this 'kill them all with fire' point. - 168: Suave Quirk has left the building? He's irritating Mary, and that seems... again, not the Quirk we first met - 169: What is the comment about calming down about? It comes off really patronizing without context - 170: wait what? Mary has given no outward signs of liking Quirk at all, and I think he insulted her a page ago. They're just going to boink now? *disbelief* - 171: Wouldn't Quirk call them 'panties' or 'lingerie' or something kind of fancy, noting his love of clothing and women? Knickers seems like an off word choice here - 173: the foundation quip work, although Quirk notes they are both wearing suits, but doesn't give details. I thought he was into suits? - 175: personality between our android murdered and Quirk sort of blends together this page - 179: my head is spinning from too much plot too fast, I think. I'm a lot lost - 180: why did the cops go so quickly from interrogation to help? Also lost here

Okay but it is aimed at me. Not by you, necessarily, but by the presenter. This video made me so angry I cried. I cried here at work and had to leave the building and take a walk. That is how upset it made me. The message of that video is tone policing. And the comic at the link there is a really good one, and well worth the time to read. I don't have to listen to the other side, when the other side doesn't think I am a person, and that I don't deserve human rights. Why would I give any time to someone who thinks I should be dead? Should a Jew have to debate the usefulness and importance of their life with a Nazi? No. That's asinine. We don't have to debate fundamental human rights, and if we do chose to, we do not have to do so civilly. By allowing 'the other side' to be heard, we legitimize it. We say to that side and everyone listening - look, this person has something worth hearing, and we should consider their position. That just further marginalizes people. This isn't about worldview, and that is part of what makes that video so hurtful. It lumps social justice, the intrinsic rights of humans that should not be under debate, along with a religion. Everyone has a right to a life free from oppression and hate and violence. Religion is something you chose, and you can follow its rules or not, but there is no parallel between someone with a view that, say, Jesus is the son of god, versus a black man's right not to be shot for buying Skittles. And you'd better believe the black community has a right to their anger. They have a right to yell, and be angry, and show their activism and discuss their experiences however they wish. As white people, it is our job to not delegitimize their pain, or make them speak gently to us because we get uncomfortable with their anger. The marginalized do not owe comfort to their oppressors. Sometimes you have to use violence to solve violence. Even Martin Luther King believed that. You have to understand that words can be violence. I would rather be punched than purposefully misgendered, and the physical effect on my body is the same (and the pronoun comments in that video were particularly damaging to me). That is how much words can hurt. And some words, some words cannot be allowed. Words that seek the destruction of people, that argue that groups of people are not even human? That cannot be allowed to stand, because the damage to the marginalized is too great. More on Tone Policing On black women and white women Good quotes from a menagerie of people A good wiki, with links, and separate break out discussion of geek culture and civility The Style over Substance fallacy

@Ernei, I know we've had these conversations before, and I understand that you're looking at our social problems here in the US through the lens of an outsider, but I think its important for you (and everyone else) to understand that this video isn't okay. The demographic make up of the people in the video should have been a first clue. It also reeks of privilege that I'm kind of tired of deconstructing. Nevertheless, I shall try again. - The man in the video says we shouldn't seek to change people, that we should just live our lives and love people. This is privilege at its finest. Black people in the USA cannot live their lives. They get shot for going to the store to buy a bag of skittles. They get shot for taking an autistic man, (that they are taking care of), out for a walk. They get shot for DWB (driving while black). Should they just ignore that? Live their lives with love and just keep letting white people kill them?! What about trans people? They can't live their lives, either, because in some states they can't use public restrooms. Should they not go out of their homes? Should queer people as a whole just sit idly by while our rights are legislated away? What about immigrants? What about Muslims in this country? What about the man on the flight just recently who needs major reconstructive surgery on his face, and got a concussion, due to our airport security? Should he just love them and laugh it off because they're never going to change? - The arguments used by the narrator seek to invite complacency in privileged people. Why get upset over social media? Why raise public consciousness? No one is ever going to change. Racism will just always exist and we should never strive to be better. You can't affect change, silly person, so don't bother trying. Just be happy and live your life and don't worry about those around you who are marginalized because they're just grumpy, and they sound unhappy, and they're always whining. Go ahead and tone police them, because constantly being shot at by police doesn't give you the right to be angry. Go ahead and wave off trans people because you were born in the right body, and it's not your fault they weren't. Why can't they just be happy the way they are? Oh, one of them was beaten to death for wearing a dress? Guess that just happens. If only he'd been happier and just loved people more. - Being a good person, a truly socially conscious person, takes work. It is hard. If you can avoid being a part of social justice, you are privileged, and you need to take a long, hard look at what that means. It doesn't mean silencing marginalized voices, or dehumanizing their struggles, or treating them like children. Racial equality matters. Pronouns matter (like, don't you remember what happens to S when misgendering occurs??). Being able to cover your head with a scarf because it means something to you, and your religion, and to not be beaten to death for doing so, matters. It's great that white cis, het Christians can pull wool over their eyes and pretend these things are just silly angry bickering. That sure as heck isn't what Jesus did. He didn't ignore the poor, or the sick, or the marginalized. He helped them. He hung out with them. He listened to their hardships and fought for them. He got angry! Jesus yelled! He made people listen because people were ignoring the marginalized, and here comes the son of god saying no, that's not cool. Everyone matters, everyone. Jesus was THE social justice warrior, and every time, every darn time I see something like this video, all I can wonder is if Christians can even see how far they have fallen from the god they claim to love. WWJD? It sure as heck wouldn't be this.

I wrote a shorter chapter! HAHAHA! TWD is dark adult fantasy. Hey hey, we’re in draft one! Everything and anything is open to edits, but at this stage LBLs are less useful than overall feelings about tension, character development, text flow, etc. Tags: I don’t really understand the threshold for gore. I don’t think this is gory? Someone’s skin gets sliced with a crystal but I don’t comment too heavily on it. NC= non-consent, in that rape is briefly discussed as an historic act.

Regional dialect? I don't know. It's for my eventual editor! Yes, this. And I wanted it to be somewhat vague, so looks like that works. LOL! Because S is supremely self-concious about breasts and is making poor parallel assumptions. It plays into a larger theme that is starting to build in this chapter. Wait for it. Argh. Okay. Will try to fix. I think I may keep it. S is in fact making a slight against tradespeople here. It would appear I didn't either, because it's already gone in my current document. Must have cut it last round. True. I don't get the reference at all. I'll try to clarify. Part of this is referencing material I added after the group read the early chapters. He's making rape jokes, basically. WRS - her cloak is bright blue Yes, this exactly. The confusion is probably part WRS. This is a matriarchy and inheritance is passed down through daughters. So a firstborn son couldn't inherit and would be fostered out. S was kept because S had 'the right anatomy'. This is S's POV, so we have to step around words like 'Sam wasn't born female', because technically, neither was S. I don't think you should ever be afraid to ask questions! You know I'm happy to chat. Thank you for the feedback! Excellent, as always.

I'd like to sub on the 17th as well.

It's my favorite! The story really starts to take shape!

I have officially finished drafting TWD! Hooray! Now on to version one, fondly now referred to as 'Cleaning up gaping plot holes'.

Thank you for posting this!

This book is killing me. I've rewritten the end like five times now. In this current incarnation, Sam isn't a witch at all, so I had to change things up here. I understand the point about action. I put the pigment part back in. Hopefully that strikes the right balance. Oh I agree it's a strange thing to notice, but I'm trying to show an aspect to S's worldview here in that 1) S doesn't frequent taverns and 2) S doesn't view breasts in the same way as M. It matters later. If it sticks out here, that's good. If it's too jarring, that's not. Because of things I've changed. Continuity error! It's a placeholder for right now. There's another subplot that needs to go in. It's missing right now. I apologize. Draft zero and all. Clarified! But now back because I thought about this most of the day, and you are right! So, 6000 word chapter returns! I think I need help figuring this out. I've drawn out the scene so that S trips onto the chair, the chair then collapses, then S rolls into a table and beer pours over S. More comedy. This needs to, somehow, break the tension so that S looks utterly incompetent and the trappers are not longer threatened. This has the unintended consequence of lowering S even farther, and the trappers make crude jokes to save face for being intimidated by a junior witch. In the end, derogatory comments are better than knives, and M is showing an understanding of how crowds and appearance work. But if its not working its not working and I ask for help! I put more information in about this in chapter two. I might sub that little paragraph with my next sub, just to catch everyone up. What I'm trying for though, is to not be too upfront with it, because it doesn't affect S they same way it does M, or other women. So if we were in third limited I could a switch to really hammer the obscenity of the queendom's past, but this first person thing is hard, yo! Hopefully after I sub the little paragraph I can get some feedback on if that clears things up. Aheh.... forgot to change that bit! Agh, he did, but it was subtle. I'll pull it out more. Thank you for reading again, and being patient with all the changes. Onwards!

Climate fun! In very cold places if there wasn't cloud cover overnight, a clear sky in the morning means biting cold! It's sort of a sleeping together thing, which S should know, because S and M shared a bed together frequently as children. That was the memory I was trying to evoke, anyway. Quite right. Editing. WRS I think. There were only a few people last night, and S took note. I can't do much explaining on the magic because it's first person and S doesn't understand it at all (somewhat willfully, I might add). I'm trying for a bit of unreliable narrating, too, so the views you get here, especially, might not be entirely indicative of what magic actually is Aheh... edits... They're scattered here and there in the story, for a very particular purposes. Sorry about that. Yeah, I should pull this out more I think There is a subplot here that is slowly coming out. I've added a bit more to it in chapter two in rewrites, so you're more in the dark than I'd like. But I did want to have a reason for a matriarchy, especially since I'm modeling a period in Europe (although not the landscape or climate). But if it helps, M shares your disgust and will discuss it at length next chapter. Thank you for the comments!

Overall Well, I thought this was lovely! Much smoother than the last time I read it, and with the exception of a few places mentioned below, it flows well and I am engaged. Nice work! ~ Questions-Is Sam's POV keeping your interest? It is this chapter! He's adorable! -How does Rilan/ Ori's interaction read? Better than before. The explanation of their relationship pulls them together in my mind, and that really helps. ~ As I go - the first paragraph is clunky. I think it might need a few more sentences to even it out. Sort of jumps around to three completely different areas per sentence and I'm not sure how they tie together - Both sets of clothes were repellant, in different ways. <-- I love this - page two: The 'Sam meets a girl' scene is much better now! - page two: I don't think councillor should be capitalized... I think? Like, when used as an address, sure, but you have 'the Councillor', which is a job so not a proper noun - page three: the explanation of euthanasia is also better! - page four: Without it, we are little more than ten planets, floating alone.” This is a theme I would love to see explored more. What does the nether really mean to the species who use it? What does it do to this unique set of civilizations if they are cut off from one another? - page four: If Rilan is going to muse about what first drew her to Origon, it'd be nice to also have a "and then they'd grown apart because..." - page five: ah, I see there is a bit more about the relationship here. Better. My question has been answered - page six: purple wood be fancy. I approve. - the name repetition Sam gives on page seven is really useful

Overall These both felt like worldbuilding chapters without arcs, and that made it hard to stay invested. For your questions: Questions:- Chapter 3, concise or rushed? I didn't find it rushed. Drawing it out would make it sag. - The landlady, do I need to go deeper into how LC reacts to her? The landlady came off as a caricature, and LC doesn't really react. Some information about WHY the landlady is like that, or at least more reactions, would be useful - On page 4, I'm trying to convey a specific way of speaking, is it okay like this or would it be better with just descriptors in the dialogue tags? I didn't mind it - "1B", is it permissible to use the numeral in this situation? I think so? Meh, leave it for an editor - Sea-lamps, fun detail or TMI? TMI. Suggest deleting the whole paragraph. -There's some navel-gazing and info-dumping in Chapter 4. I think I managed to keep it to an acceptable amount, what do you think? I think it wouldn't be so bad if the chapter arced. It was just starting to get interesting, and then didn't go anywhere. This is definitely better than last time. Good work! As I go - 'an acceptable bistro lunch' isn't a particularly strong starting line to a chapter - He noted them flit to his carefully coiffed hair, freshly shaved jaw, and fashionable rings. This is sort of POV fail - why are we emphasizing 'leg' on page two? - the dialogue on page two is pretty cliche and standard. Maybe punch it up some? - page three: lot of summary, which detracts from any tension you may have been forming - page four: 'old bag' is... questionably in your established POV here. Also a little tropish - page five: the landlady's anger doesn't seem real. I have no feel for her motivation and I'm not getting a lot of emotion back out of Laurea. - Fortunately, the unaccommodating landlady: these adjectives before landlady are getting repetitive and drawing me out of the narrative - Is the lamp lighting necessary worldbuilding? I feel like it is just taking up space, and I am anxious at this point for something to happen - page seven is the first time I've been really drawn into the story - page seven: this ending doesn't really... end. I think you're missing the end point to your story arc here

For me, the more content warnings, the better! Overall I'm please, mostly, with the pacing, although the first android chapter I think could be cut entirely. I see a bit more of old-Quirk in here than I have recently, and it's good to see the Moth/Quirk interaction growing and evolving. I'm still not sure what you are expecting from the reader in terms of emotions re the android, and I think your first chapter with Moth and Quirk should actually lead your book early on. It is a strong, directed chapter. Looking forward to more next week! As I go - Androcon stands to lose everything and that is a lot.” This sentence is really vague. Give me specifics! Hook me! - 'plass' on page 140 should be 'pass' - 141: so they are rehashing something we have already seen. This would be more gripping if we hadn't seen the incident with the android, or maybe were just led up to it and left hanging, and then we got the rest here - Dark hair greying, his thin arms were crossed, but the thin fingers of his right hand drummed on the desk - repetition on 'thin' here - LOL at toe sucking - “I wouldn’t be any more or less aroused.” - really? Recently you've had him sort of wishy washy on this. Here is confident again, like early chapters Quirk - page 147: wait, why is Schuler sweating now? He's seemed so impassive before - top of page 148: ah, so here we have at last the plot direction. I would actually suggest moving this MUCH earlier on, perhaps even second chapter. It gives us everything an agent/reader wants in terms of book outline, and provides a very decent hook. - 149-150 seem more info-dumpy and telly than anything else. I don't yet have empathy for Callan so his wanderings don't move me - 150: yes, this chapter drags, especially after the last one. It has no arc. - 152...... okay but why? Are you trying to show a severe mental imbalance? If you were trying to drive sympathy at all for Callan, I just lost it. Solid villain territory now - Let’s have a look at any reports of assaults or domestic disturbances in the last two weeks.” Wait, why are they assuming Callan would just commit another crime? What if he just wanted to escape and live out a life uh, surfing or reading Cat Fancy? - Quirk sneered. Sneered seems wrong here. Maybe 'sniffed'? - I'm confused as to why they didn't want to see the apartment first thing. Wouldn't that be normal for an investigation?

I swear, I cut like 500 words out of this chapter already! Argh. Sorry it's over again. If you only have time to read part, I totally understand.

Up for the 10th as well, pending space.

Whew. I figured, contextually, it's plenty old for the early to mid 1700s to be an adult and have it be embarrassing to not have a 'life', but young enough to be still kind of unsure about things. Hopefully, anyway.

I have elaborated. Good! The guilds and how they are bonded is really important world building, and its important I get it in without info dumping horribly. I think the thing to remember here is that we are in first person, and S is a pretty unreliable narrator. Very narrow worldview, and very guild-centric. S will view the world in terms of guilded and non-guilded almost as 'right' and 'wrong'. Hopefully the reader is starting to get some sense of that now, and throughout the next few chapters. Argh, yes. Good point. I need to figure out what to do with the bodies. Or does M just not want to see a doctor? Check. Boot editing. *cough* Pronouns *cough* While its not particularly relevant for character buy-in, anatomy is discussed in several more chapters. We're about 1/3 of the way through the book, so I think things are tracking okay. Well, at least I hope they are. As long as I am keeping RE people engaged, I think I'm able to swing the white male reader at least somewhat. Thank you for the comments! Now I have to go figure out this dead knight issue.

Thank you for the comments! I'm glad the story is catching well! I love this idea. Editing in now! Fair enough. It's an easy change. For sure. I tend to overwrite first drafts and then cut them down significantly in read throughs. I'll mark this up for the axe. Gotcha. Will edit. I'm sort of boxed in here. I need to lay out the differences between magic and alchemy, and do is succinctly. I can do it through S's thoughts and experiences to a point, but several conversations are needed. Exposit now or exposit later, at some point it has to happen. I can't find a way around it. Fair. I'll try to reword. I moved S's age to twenty. Does it work for that age? I don't believe I've ever had a whole page approval from you. Score! I think this could be said of everything I write. Heh. Thank you for the feedback!

Combat - redundancy on 'back' in that first line, redundancy on 'match' in lines two and three - the sentence that begins with 'the man' is awkward and I think also a run-on - wait... that's it? I know we discussed this last sub. This short has no plot, no arc, no motivation. There is nothing in here to make me care about any of the people, there is no growth, there is no real start nor end. Food Chain - more redundancy at the start of this. Watch those reused words! - the interplay with the first bullying incident is unclear now. I only know what happened because I read it before, I think - hah! The end made me chuckle, but it does fall flat. I'll agree with @Mandamon that I liked the previous version better. This one is also missing a lot of the 'feels' I got from the first one. Who Wants To Be Super - wife being used as bait/motivation/character growth... ehhhhh. Skirting around fridge town, here. Don't make me reset the counter. - this one is very 'telly'. There are also a fair number of typos in this one you'll want to address - eh? The ending falls flat again. Everyone is just expositing, there is no actual emotion, and the villain is... confusing. Lacking motivations all around, so this 'surprise' doesn't work. I agree with @neongrey that this is the weakest of your pieces. Glad to see you sub again!

That makes me so happy! Also, Every Heart a Doorway was AMAZING. Everyone should read it!

No, but there wasn't anything that said that the form wasn't changing, either. I think you might need to actually have a line that says something like 'same height, same hair, but the way he carried himself was much more etc etc.' I felt the section lacked description, and I was left to sort of drift on what had happened. In a world of magic and non-humans, anything could be possible, so just a little bit of grounding would help a lot. Especially since Savae makes the comment about a boy being easier with errands or something akin, which made me wonder if appearances had changed enough that Thalan looked significantly more 'male'.

Overall Slow start, as they are still traveling. Again, it's nice to have the descriptions of place, but in Quirk's POV from how you had him set up, I expected more clothing descriptions, or fashion at least. Like yes, the desk is moon dust but was that in style fifty years ago? New trend? Those last three pages really amped up and I got swept into the narrative. Of course then the end made me smack my chair because I want the next chapter. I'd like to get to this point faster. Maybe there could be a consolidation of the two previous travel chapters so that it doesn't take so long to get here? I feel like the end of this submission is when we are finally getting to the meat of the story, and I want more! As I go - So, wait. The android's name is Callan, but he asks the doctor to call him Gregor? That is... confusing. - but quickly he found that if he did not control a part of the android it would act according to its programming- this confuses me. Are you saying that if he doesn't actively seek to override the android parts, they just function autonomously? - page 123: well, the android became interesting, but appears to also lack a moral base. I wouldn't mind seeing that explored more in-depth at an earlier stage. It seems like maybe you're trying to suggest that he is driven by his more basic instincts? - but the dome hove into sight - the dome what now? - It might have been my wife; people sometimes get us confused. I LOLed! BURN! Oh god, that was lovely. As an aside - where is Quirk at with his sexuality? He okay with it? Still working on it? If he's okay with it, there would likely be a moment of camaraderie here, even if not spoken. If he's still working on it, this should probably make him feel a mite awkward - page 134: as much as I am enjoying the descriptions, I feel like these two have been traveling for ages. I'm needing something to happen. Soon. - oh, the end is fun! I was just starting to get really invested!