Harakeke
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Everything posted by Harakeke
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I am a stick. -
Beautiful! Though again, my glyph key is still highly speculative at this point -- and probably more wrong than it is right. -
Haha! Beautiful. I particularly enjoy your artful placement of screw you lines! ;-) Just a heads up though that (unlike the Alethi women's script and Thaylen keys) my glyph key is still highly speculative at this point -- and probably more wrong than it is right. -
Ah. The G in the Thaylen key is a soft G derived from "DNGR" (Danger) -- so it really might be better to code it as J, now that I think about it. In which case, we don't have a correlate for the (hard) G sub-glyph in Alethi. Perhaps it looks sort of like the H, but with a straight dangly bit instead of a slanted one. i.e. |_|‾ Which also seems consistent with the way long numbers seem to be written with the smallest place values on top. 1173 3 70 100 1000 Edit: After staring at the Gesheh glyph for a bit, and assuming |_|‾ = G, I'm leaning toward a consonant-vowel syllable parsing, rather than the vowel-consonant I've been using. Ge She (H) |_|‾ Ge \ |_ She [Final H is not written, because screw you]
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@ccstat - Oh, good catch. I'll revisit that when I get a chance. I did mean Veden there, not Thaylen -- and you make a good point about the ordering. I may be too hung up on the nan/nan correlation. @Weiry - Pfft. I was *way* off with my guess of how to pronounce that glyph. =P Good info though! It's tricky to parse the glyph, even with that transliteration. The (e)sh syllable seems fairly clear, and I suspect the circle is a "screw you". The top part really looks like an H syllable to me though -- that or my speculation on the G subglyph is way off. Maybe G can be realized as H? Do you know if it was a hard G (e.g. get, gone) or a soft g (e.g. gem)? @Eri - Though, as far as most people know, isn't Brightlord Davar still alive? Renumbering his sons would sorta' ruin the whole secrecy deal...
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It seems like the vertical strokes are aligned along three "columns". The default width for each letter seems to be 2, although some letters (especially H and K) sometimes stretch out to 3 when necessary. A few letters seem to be slightly off-axis (possible indication of the existence of "screw you" in the shared Vorin proto-language, i.e. Dawnchant?) for aesthetic effect, but the font could gloss over that. So for example, two ways to write T are: 123 L I L I Coming up with automatic kerning for that strikes me as difficult, but you might be able to kluge something where the lowercase character is left aligned (12) and the uppercase character is right aligned (23), so that you can manually decide which version to use. (Or maybe this is something font-making programs can handle? I dunno...) If it would help, I can send you the .ai file I used to make the key. (I'm out of town now, but I could send it when I get home.) Also, the Alethi women's script font could use a revamp if you're good with that sort of thing -- the original version has a couple minor errors that I've fixed in my key. I have vectors for both Navani-style and non-slanted "proper" handwriting.
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http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=763#7
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Yeah, having now actually finished the book -- I realize most of my earlier speculation about Urithiru is off the mark. And it turns out that glyph pops up in all sorts of weird places -- not just relating to navigation. There's a whole thread about that somewhere. Maybe one of Roshar's Shards took a cue from Ruin and is messing with written texts just to screw with us? Edit: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1640-isasik-shulin
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@illsmithyourbonds: Yes, from the tip of the sword to its hilt, which corresponds with the surgebinding chart going clockwise from the Windrunners. I disagree. It's been strongly implied that the glyphs are decipherable, given the information we have. If the glyphs were purely symbolic, there'd be no way to do that. In the cases where we have both A) a clear picture of the glyph and B)knowledge of how it's pronounced, it is easy to spot the correspondence between graphemes and phonemes. The problem is that there are so few of these that there are many gaps in the key. In-world evidence supports that "literate" glyph-writers/readers can compose new glyphs on the fly, and even string glyphs along phonetically. If they were totally arbitrary, that wouldn't be possible. Illiterate folks (from the lowest bridgeman to the son of a Highprince) can still recognize common glyphs by their shapes, even if they can't "read" them. 1) Glyphs are very different from writing -- see the first post where I have examples of both the women's script and glyphs. Even though the same phonemes can be written in both glyphs and women's script, they're fundamentally very different. Women's script uses completely different graphemes; is character-based, not syllable-based; and has rules for sentence structure. 2) That goes for any language you don't know the meaning of. I think that what you're seeing is the consequence of the lack of an Alethi<>English lexicon. Sounding out that the componants of a glyph read "-Sh" and "aSh" is meaningless, unless you also know that "shash" means "dangerous". The glyphs do have an Asian feel to them, but I think katakana might be a better parallel. 3) I think you're underestimating the devilishness of the screw you lines. Not only do you have to draw a bunch of meaningless gibberish around the actual letters, you have to do it with such precision and standardization that people who can't read the glyph still recognize its shape. For example, using the speculative key, you could write "thath" as: .: I don't think your example with Chinese really matches what we've seen with how people speak/read Alethi. Each Alethi word seems to have a single meaning, regardless of how it's written. The complexity in glyphs/glyphpairs arises from the contractions. For example: khokh + linil > Kholin shesh + lerel > Sheler merem + khakh + "I'm a jerk and rules are beneath me" > Amaram Edit: I wonder -- could the 10 fundamental glyphs be contractions of their associated surge glyphpairs? [adhesion] + [gravitation] > [windrunner] Edit: Ehhhh, not really...
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There is but one highstorm, and it is stationary; it is the Roshar-shell that moves.
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I concur. I still can't *read* either set properly, but they're definitely different syllables.
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Here's a crude overlay of a couple various maps. The map of Alethkar seems to use the same projection as the Southern Hemisphere map -- which isn't surprising, since both were commissioned by King Gavilar. The Frostlands map seems to use a slightly different projection. Note that the map of Alethkar has a line running through the middle (parallel to the "KAR" in Alethkar) that denotes North. Warning! Not for navigation purposes!
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Here's a comparison of the "ten fundamental glyphs" from Shallan's sketch of Elhokar's sword (left) and the Surgebinding Chart (right). Click to enlarge. Note how the surgebinding versions have way more screw you lines. I'm less confident now that these glyphs correspond to the names of the Heralds.
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The full-color map seems to be the same basic projection as the sepia map -- except painted on a vaulted ceiling. e.g.: The level of shared precision makes me wonder if the artists have a full-on Rosharan GIS behind the scenes... One of these days, I'd like to throw the high-res images into ArcMap and see how they look when georectified. That southern hemisphere map's been bugging me for a while -- it's reminiscent of the Robinson pseudocylindrical projection -- except I think that would make Roshar weirdly hourglass-shaped. Which I suppose would support Confused's Greatshell Hypothesis...
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Here's the map with the numbers properly spaced.
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Yeah.... I just slapped two lines of text on there real quick to make it clear they were numbers. Didn't have time to align the characters properly... (sorry folks!)
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Yeah - they're just numbers. Look like latitude, but not based off the equator. I'll throw them on the translated map at some point... @Ryshadium: Look like Oathgate connections to me.
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<p>For reference:</p> <p> </p> <p>Edit: Now with numbers</p> <p></p>
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Yep - looks like Roshar extends from around 10°N to 70°S. The Reshi Isles sit right around the equator. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8zBC2dvERM&t=2m50s
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Interesting. I believe that's the same axis of symmetry as the "Voidbinding" Glyphs. Looks like it could be the same glyph that's stamped in red on the stance scroll illustration. Yep. Tones of glyphs written all over that map. I suspect that the Compass Rose glyph has something to do with the Oathgates and/or Urithiru
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I'd love to, but I've got some significant real life deadlines looming, so I've had to put deciphering Alethi glyphs on the back burner. Since it turned out the Ch. 84 doesn't actually have anything to do with the glyphs, I don't feel in such a rush now. I've also started *actually reading* WoR. (Just got to the end of Part III) Some general musings: I feel like having a basic grasp of the writing systems gives me a richer appreciation of the world. When Navani drew the big Justice glyph at the end of WoK, I could visualize the process. Spanreed communication takes on a more elegant feel. Even the names of passing background characters clearly indicate their ethnicity, and thus general appearance. The attention to detail and internal consistency in these books is fascinating. Like Hoid, I too am very curious about the etymology of Axehound. It's odd, isn't it? Strange choice of words. Archaic. It's why I took the case. "Mr. Holmes, they were the footprints of a gigantic hound." Why say "hound"? The Khokh and Linil glyphs in the chapter headings must have a bunch of screw you lines, since the words themselves comprise only two or three sub-glyphs. Likewise for Navani's big burny "thath". I love that the glyphs have been sitting under our noses for *years*, and we're only now getting around to deciphering them! The Frostlands map seemed a little too straightforward when I was first working on it, but here it's gone and kicked off this whole new puzzle! I guess there really is always another secret! One thing that would certainly be helpful for a joint effort would be to compile a collection of all the glyphs we've seen, cropped, oriented, and in the highest resolution available. @Khyrindor - for the moment, as best as I can tell. I'll try to keep the first post updated.
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Yeah -- what I meant was that people who went to midnight releases, etc. threw on spoiler tags on their initial posts for the benefit of those of us still waiting on deliveries, etc. It was helpful in the very beginning, and the trend sort of stuck (even if it's outlived its usefulness). I do appreciate the considerate tone of this board, though. I'd much rather see extraneous -
I think this board was open before the book came out, and there were some general specuation/discussion threads going on. When WoR was released, the first few threads used the
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Aha! I always suspected the solution would be something deceptively simple! Marvelous work! I salute you! It's been great fun following along with everyone in this thread! Indeed! The actual decipherment was very elegant!
