Treamayne

Well, we also don't know what percentage of that thousand shared a similar "rebellious" intent. . . Vahr did buy some and acquire others through dealings with the underground. That was why I said at least hundreds.

I don't think that TLR intentionally allowed keepers to keep breeding - he was excessively worried about anybody (including Inquisitors) gaining access to Compounding and was very careful which Feruchemical spikes he granted. However, you may or may-not have noticed, the fact that Inquisitors were harvesting Ferchemy spikes was implied in Well of Ascension. After TLR died, the Keepers came out into the open thinking they were safe. The Synod openly took the government of Terris, and Keepers (like Sazed) started teaching across the former empire. Then Elend and Spook encounter the Terris refuggees, who relate that the Inquisitors came to Tathingdwen and "slaughtered" the Synod. That was the hint - the regular Terris did not know that Inquisitors use Hemalurgy, but the reader may recognize that the Inquisitors were giving to themselves the powers that TLR had kept from them all this time. Once Ruin was free, it continued as he controlled select Inquisitors in hunting down the Keepers that had been outside of the Terris Dominance the previous year.

I wonder if it is not-so-much something of the person being transfered, rather the mindset/method of transfer imarting a fraction of Intent to the breath. In singles, dozens or scores, the fractions of Intent are too small to notice - but in the hundreds of aligned intents would influence the Intent of an awakening using those breaths?

I agree that regular breaths and regular awakening are primarily PR manifestations of Endowment's Investiture. What I was saying was that Lifeless are "sticky" because the breath that was used for that awakeneing has transitioned to the SR to become the artifical soul mentioned in the WoB. That's why it cannot be recovered. So, any investiture that cannot transition in that way won't make a lifeless - which also explains why it "would be hard" to try using Stormlight, for example, to create Lifeless. However, something like the Dor that can already make the transition and affect spiritwebs (AonDor, Bloodsealing, Forgery, etc) has a better chance of substituting because the nature of the Dor already allows it to transition to the SR and affect the Spiritweb. I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. Do you say that the Breath reconnects the entire spirit web of a deceased person that resides in SR? No, because upon death the spirit web and mind are separated from their body. However this body would be considered an inanimate object now, with some sort of cognitive manifestation and traces of soul - that soul will have some connection or be tied to identity of a deceased person, but will be completely lacking the ability of invested arts - as that part of the spirit web was separated from it (that part is the spiritual corpse now - Breaths don't reach there when creating Lifeless). What I was trying to convey is that I think in a regular Lifeless awakening, the "artificial soul" mentioned in the WoB only reconnects a very small fragment of the original body's spiritweb "corpse" and that using additional methods reconnect either more or different fragments (possibly restoring some Connection or other spiritweb traits). It would require very specific Intent and Command to try reconnecting Identity, and without that any invested art requiring Identity would not be accessible to a Lifeless. Two theories, both possible (and possibly both wrong) but not mutually exclusive since it could be some combination. We can't relly extrapolate until we have more data. Disagree. I think it has to do with Connection. Of course, their original breath would have connection. But we also know that transfered breath changes its identity key, but that does not mean previous Connections are severed. I think the WoB simply means that breath retaining some Connection to the body influences how the lifeless reconnects to the Spiritweb fragments (or which fragments to which it reconnects). Again, we can't really extrapolate more without further data.

I'm sorry if I discouraged you, and I wouldn't go that far - the reasons we talk this out as a group is to refine ideas. For example, you may consider that if the act of creating a Lifeless requires Investiture that is primarily in the SR - whaere have we seen similar? Then you use Coppermind and Arcanum to look up and follow ideas and discover that we do already know of a similar process - Skeletals. So that gives you another datapoint to refine your theory(ies). I thought that point was covered above when I noted that Lifeless requires an Investiture that resides primarily in the SR an can function as an artificial soul. Sapient spren (of any type - Seon, Skaze, Unmade, etc) and Cognitive realm entities. Thus, I doubt thay could animate a lifeless (nor would they want to do so). I'm not sure about that. Brandon was very specific to say soul not spiritweb. He then further (as quoted above) says "part of their own soul." So, we know that soul =/= spiritweb, though they are related (and very likely one is a component of the other). We know aspects of the spiritweb survive death as a sort-of SR "corpse." That's why a Returned is the original SR Identity and CR Identity reconnected to their body by the Divine Breath. So, a Lifeless must use the artificial soul to reconnect fragments of the original spiritweb to the body - but because it is lacking the Spiritual Identity portion of the Spiritweb and the Cognitive Identity (unless parts were returned through some other method like animating with previously Connected breath) the Soul and Spiritweb fragments will have lost the portions that require Identity, like Invested nature (Metallic Arts, etc.) and can't gain access to invested arts that require an Identity unless additional measures are taken to restore/replace an SR/CR Identity (in which case you are no longer really in the "lifeless" category - hence his comment about an unkeyed metalmind (probably an AluminumMind) leading to no longer being lifeless) That is a whole lot of speculation. All I was trying to say was that the breath that animated Arsteel's Corpe into the Lifeless Clod was somehow Connected to Arsteel before that event. It's possible (probable?) that if one of the five scholars was the Awakener (Denth - and very likely) that there was also a different-than-normal technique involved inteh process since each of he five scholars mucked about in Lifeless techniques at some time or another. . .

Lifeless are not alive (it's in the name after all) and Breath reanimates them, but does not sustain them. The Breath becomes an artifical soul to animate the body, but without cognitive identity or a spiritweb. Additional breaths would only be needed if enough damage was done to require more "animating force" (as per Vasher's explaination in Ch 46: The Law of BioChromatic Parallelism: the closer a host is to a living shape and form, the easier it is to Awaken.) Warbreaker Annotation to Ch 33: It couldn't be just any investiture, it has to be a form of investiture that resides primarily in the Spiritual Realm to make an artificial Soul. WoB: Lifeless do not have a Spiritweb to which additional investiture can be attached. Something more would be required. WoB: Whether or not Divine Breath can be used to Awaken is a hearty debate on the forums already. We do not have an answer either way (we do know it can do things other than Heal somebody - but not what else can be done) - such as this thread. But even if a Divine Breath could be used to awaken, you would have to find a way to acquire one - since any Returned that loses thier Divine Breath is dead. Also, when somebody is healed by Divine Breath - it is consumed by the process and the person being healed does not "receive" that divine breath - just the healing. WoBs: Divine Breath is a Splinter of Endowment - and rather different from normal breath. Returned are Cognitive Shadows reattached to their physical shell by the Splinter (Divine Breath) and not very much like a Lifeless at all. Lifeless are corpses animated with an artificial soul made of Breath. Awakening a Lifeless with breath that body formerly had can increase the Connection to the body's former Spirit Web, giving it more-than-normal awareness (but not quite a return to Sentience much less Sapience)- implied by WoB that this happened to Clod. A Returned is the original body reconnected (via Divine Breath) to the original Cognitive Identity and original Spiritweb.

Mostly correct, yes: So, Timbre had tried to bond Eshonai. She found Eshonai shortly before she took on Stormform (RoW) - then, after the change, Timbre tried to break Odium's influence by allowing the proto-bond to let Eshonai hear her own Cognitive screaming (WoR), but was ultimately unsuccessful. Eshonai actually accepted the first two oaths of the Willshapers (My Life / I will be free), but could not verbalize them because of the flooding. If you recall, it was only after the first oath for Venli that Timbre was able to reside in her gemheart and take the Voidspren there "captive" (something Timbre probably learned from her time with Eshonai). Right, that was the crux of my hypothesis on the previous page. That the "Connection shenanigans" happens when Spren are searching for <Individual> because the Bond will be formed and so Connection already exists in the Spiritual Realm before the Bond is formed in the Cognitive and Physical Realms. However, when a potential Radiant is found and accepted because they are a Squire (Lopen, Gaz, etc.) then this kind of effect is either not possible, less-likely, or unnoticed (since they already have access to Stormlight be being a squire) because the Connection isn't Spren + Individual-with-trait(s); it's Spren + Squire-with-traits so the connection Prechoes (preceding echoes - to try a new term) would only appear after they have become a Squire (as being a squire is part of the Connection).

Okay, I was not understanding your point. Please note that it is not just a Radiant thing - any Investiture messing with SR things can potentially cause similar weird effects - we just have not yet seen such things crop up in other magic systems yet (with AonDor being the most likely to also experience similar oddities, IMO). Mistborn Era 1 Spoilers

Unlikely, since the "hema" in hemalurgy is "blood" (Spikes must touch blood to steal an attribute, and spikes also need to be stored in blood to reduce their loss of potency). Now if Person A and Misting B were both physically in Scadrial's Shadesmar (having traversed a shardpool), and Person A spiked Misting B - that should work since it is still a physical body that is being spiked. Unlikely. Here's what we know of Hemalurgy's interaction with Nahel Bonds. WoBs:

I would also like to note that this forum suggests the use of [Support] and [Discuss] tags on thread titles for this very reason. Please see this post for more.

Saying he is Hoed might be a bit too blanket of a statement, but I agree there is likely something very similar happening in both cases, causing a similar condition and similar symptoms.

Glad you are enjoying it. I won't say more, but I will remind you of these posts. Yumi and Tress Spoilers I'll answer in a spoiler tag in case you want to skip, but it is not a spoiler for anything defiitive to the books so far.

Yes, they are both related to Connection in the Spiritual Realm. I think you are overthinking this. Did you go back and reread the post referenced above? Also, the WoB in this post (early page one). It is not time travel - it is just as Brandon explains in the WoB: Connection manifests in strange ways - one of those ways is that, in some conditions, an Effect can precede a Cause. Kaladin and Dalinar were able to subconciously use Stormlight, because the SR Connection that would allow them to manifest the ability is not tied to "time;" because the SR has neither time nor place. So having a Nahel Bond creates a Connection in the SR, and because the SR is timeless, an effect of that bond appeared before the First Oath that solidified it.

That's what I was trying to explain on the previous page in this post. Based on what we know so far, I think it is the fundamental difference between a proto-Radiant (for whom a spren is searching and a SR connection has been established) and other Radiants/trainees (such as Squires). We see the effects of SR connection allow Kaladin and Dalinar some small, inadvertant access to Stormlight before the First Oath (because SR Connection tends to manifest in small effects that precede their cause) - where as with Radiants like Teft and The Lopen, they did not have these effects because the SR Connection was between a "squire" and their spren, and so it could not manifest an effect until the person had become a Squire (e.g. Kaladin's third oath allowing The Lopen - and his other squires - access to Stormlight).

Two people wouldn't be in control at the same time - the pressure from multiple mistings will weaken the target(s) will, and whoever makes the push that breaks that wall would be the one in control when it was done. You can try, but I'm not sure Q&A threads can move in that way. I might be better to just start a new thread in Cosmere Discussion or Mistborn Forums (depending on if you plan for the thread to follow re-reads across the whole of the Cosmere). You can move quotes from this thread to the first post in a new thread (just click on the "+" sign on the top-left of the quote in the reply section, use CTRL+X to "cut" the quote, then use CTRL+V to paste it into the new thread. YOu can also link back to this thread and mention you are moving the conversation. Please see this thread for an example. Also note, that when you use the built-in quote system (as opposed to just clicking the "quote" button in the editor and pasting some text) the top-right will have an arrow that links back to the full post from which the quote was made. Compare my quotes of your text in this post to your quote of @alder24 in the post right above this one. You can easily see the difference if the quote header says something like "<time>. Awakened Rock Stacker said:" or simply "Quote."

Don't forget, Kaladin was also healing with Stormlight before his first oath (surviving the highstorm and afterward). Here are the quotes you were thinking of - his unintentional use of Stormlight isn't on-screen, as far as I can tell, but it is implied:

Don't forget that the Listener Blades had the Gemstone required for bonding and dismissing the blade, which implies they could only have acquired them at least a century after teh recreance (unless you think that the Parshendi, who had never heard or learned of capturing a spren in a gemstone somehow independantly learned a related technique to bond a blade).

Welcome to the Forums. Please do not double-post. Here are some tips and tricks you may not have found yet that will help you address multiple topics or update posts:

Actually, no. Dalinar says the First and Second Oath both in Ch 89. he was only a proto-Radiant without oaths in Ch 76. Yes, he was receiving visions since before the beginning of WoK - but he had not sworn the First Oath before this point. His ability to understand the meaning behind the thunder right after the first oath shows that the bond was completed (despite Stormfather's Protests).

Have you read the annotations to Era 1? Much of the information that Brandon could not fit in the books themselves (due to plot and pacing issues) is found in these annotations that he wrote while doing the final copy-edit before publication. It was Ruin, not preservation, that turned the Mists into the Deepness. This was covered in the HoA Ch 81 Epigraph: Sorry you felt that way, but I can see why you do. I felt that there was enough evidence that Preservation/Ruin did not equal good/evil. Especially with Sazed's discussions with the First Generation and the events shown in Secret History. But can can see how that might not be enough for some readers, especially since all of the viewpoints are from the forces opposing Ruin, and therefore paint Ruin with the "black-hat brush." He was certainly more insidious. To me, his actions in HoA felt much more like a bully that wanted to taunt his "victims." A Megalomaniac that, having achieved his short term goal, wanted to gloat before delivering the death stroke. I think that at least part of that characterization by Brandon was purposeful to illustrate that a Shard's vessel, despite being a god in many ways, still can harbour many mortal flaws. One of Brndon's themes for the Cosmere as a whole is "what happens to Mortals who aquire god-like power." WoBs: Thank you for your insights.

Are you confusing Allrianne and Beldre? Allrianne is the daughter of Lord Cett, a Rioter who seduced Breeze, went dress chopping with Vin, etc. Beldre is the misting sister of Urteau's First Citizen - Quellion. She became the Lord Mistborn's (Spook) wife post-catacendre.

Please make sure you have spoiler tagged your cosmere references when not in a Cosmere forum. Have you read the Reckoner's trilogy (Steelheart, Firefight, Calamity)? Epic powers are not cosmere powers. Your conclusions on Soulcasting are not quite right, but this is not the forum to discuss that.

I also edited the post above to add a summary of searching the Coppermind and Arcanum.

Thirty-five WoBs reference Bendalloy. I have not filtered them, the link is to the whole search. Sixty-nine WoBs are in the #Time-Bubble category. I have not filtered those either, the link it to the whole category. I would expect significant overlap between those two sets. For example, filtering #Time_Bubble by the Bendalloy keyword yields 15 results. In case you have not yet played with the Coppermind and Arcanum much, here is a primer: Hope that helps

You know you are a nerd when all of your friends and coworkers being you their Cosmere, and other book series, questions. . .