IndigoAjah

I'm not convinced that Moash is actually that self-loathing though. He's hurt by the fact that his betrayal led to his friends hating him but reading through his sections, I'm not sure he accepts yet that he actually did anything wrong. 

1 hour ago, Part of the One said:

I'm actually not sure about this. Bronze allows allomancers to feel a pulse (rhythm) of investiture being used. Vin can even tell the difference between different types of metal being burned eventually. To me it suggests that this is a Cosmere wide phenomenon, though you would need the right combination of magics and equipment to be able to both detect and duplicate the creation of different types of anti-Investiture the way Navani has. Though Gavilar's ability to create it before means there might be still other ways of creating anti-light that we don't know about yet.

Someone provided me a WoB on another thread to say that Seekers could hear Radiants and distinguish classes, so I think it's safe to say it's a Cosmeric concept.

Also, musicality is a key concept on Nalthis too. 

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I think Brandon RAFO'd whether a shard going to another planet would create a new magic system, it seems impossible it wouldn't though

I think we already know?

Autonomy is responsible for at least 2 separate magic systems on 2 different solar systems, no?

On 09/01/2021 at 4:13 AM, Koloss17 said:

BEWARE! THERE WILL BE ALL OF THE LORE SPOILERS FOR DAWNSHARD AHEAD!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I only put this post here instead of the dawnshard board because there is a bit of things relating to RoW, and I’m not supposed to put spoilers for RoW in the dawnshard forum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

 

 

 

So. Endowment. Let’s break down the magic system. We have heightenings and the whole breath thing. The hightenings come from breaths being grafted onto your spiderweb, as seen in dawnshard. They are very color-oriented. They make colors pop. This is very useful to know given that color is a fundamental part of shards. We have their light or color, and the anti-light, and color. This doesn’t seems to be a specifically Roshar thing. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you can have anti-Ruin light and so on. So perfect color recognition helps in that respect. 
 

it also helps with perfect pitch. That allows you to make the anti-light in the first place much more easily.

so basically, the heightenings are very useful for creating anti-investiture. 
 

Endowment has created a magic system to specifically allow for this type of thing, with the breaths sticking to your spiderweb, and whatnot.
 

now there are commands. These are based off of Intent and Command, which we learn in Dawnshard is the fundamental part of all of magic in the Cosmere. In other worlds, it is more veiled. The command is symbols in Sel and the molecular composition in Scadrial. But in Nalthis, it is just verbal, which is the most fundamental form there is. 
 

The third part is investing objects. This makes them harder to tamper with and make much more powerful objects, such as Nightblood. 
 

The final part is the divine breaths, which is all about stapling the cognitive shadow to the physical realm. This is seen in many other systems, but this is given so freely by Endowment, and she made it part of the magic system as well.
 

Nalthis’ magic system seems to be made off of the fundamental building blocks of the cosmere. It is built to allow gateways to all parts of the Cosmere’s magic, within easy and straightforward access. This is quite surprising and quite dangerous. What is Endowment doing? She has plots that involves all of the raw power of the Cosmere within easy access. Why is she doing this? And what does it mean? This is a thing that seems very deliberate on Endowment’s part. I’m quite worried how dangerous she might become later on.

 

I think there's a good chance she did this to allow for the creation of Nightblood itself, no?

Also, could a Shard (maybe Autonomy is doing this?) start up on multiple systems until they ended up with the perfect magic system? 

On 05/01/2021 at 5:50 PM, Bearer of all agonies said:

I also immediatly thought that Eliot Page would be perfect for Vin, I guess we all think he is perfect for the role. 

He's too old now. A decade ago, maybe.

I also back Keen, or someone new. I also, however, think having Vin as someone mixed race would carry a lot of thematic significance, especially if they made the World of Scadrial colour blind.

My favourite call for Kel is still Tom Hiddleston, and Marsh is Mark Strong.

14 hours ago, Honorspring said:

With Tien, I think the important thing here isn't that he was Radiant, or anything about his life at all, but about him having knowledge from being in the Beyond for years. Dalinar "united them" so I feel like it was the actual soul of Tien, not just a memory or vision like Dalinar has in highstorms

 

We have WoBs on Nighblood kind of explaining that he eats the investiture of everything he touches, and that the black smoke that bleeds from his blade is excess investiture. He has eaten so much that its like trying to hold a gallon of water in a solo cup, it just pours out of him. So he isn't destroying the investiture, he seems to be converting it (to what I think is investiture keyed to the intent of Ruin, or his rhythm or whatever). We know from RoW that anti investiture cancels out with regular investiture, or really only the investiture that it was intentionally keyed to be opposite of. Its highly destructive in a way that Nightblood is not. While the sword severs all connections in all three realms, anti light blows up so I'm kinda convinced he isn't anti so much as pure destructive force, per his command

Maybe anti-Investiture isn't the right concept, but more like an Investiture Black Hole.

I just think there's no evidence of Nightblood emitting any Investiture, rather nullifying and absorbing it all, and Black has a deeper meaning that just a colour of light attached to one Shardic Intent. 

Though you could argue the Intent of "Destroy Evil" relies on Ruin to work.

I think obsessing too much over the colour, though we know Colour to be important, is dangerous as Stormlight already has colour-coding attached with the 10 gemstones and Heralds and colours of 10 Radiant Orders, then you add in colours for each Shard and finding 16 truly distinct colours is a tricky one, especially when the implication of blending Lights would be that Adonalsiumlight is feasible and, by every actual rule of Light, that should be White not Preservationlight and its total absence Black rather than one of its components. 

Any object that sucks in all Investiture from all sources, which from what we've seen of Nightblood in several worlds and several Shardsources, appears to be the case whatever else he might be, would appear Black. Drawing conclusions past that is tricky. It may be something different happens with NB and Investiture but there's no clear reason, imo, to believe so right now and thus Occam's Razor suggests NB is Black and associated with Black because of that.

On 05/01/2021 at 5:32 PM, Honorspring said:

As I was reading Rhythm of War, Kaladin's vision of Tien caught my eye and one particular phrase raised a huge question for me. When Tien says (paraphrasing here, will add actual quote later today) "look at them Kal. Look at their colors" in reference to his Connections to others, it almost seems like a huge hint as to the significance of color in the Cosmere. And because Kaladin later found the wooden horse that was handed to him in the vision, it seems that it was a genuine Connection he had with Tien from the Beyond. Does anyone else get the feeling that this is vastly important? Or that it might be worth getting a WoB on? Also, side note to make this post super long, we have a WoB confirming that color is important in the Mistborn series and we know that Honors color is blue and Honor is the force of cohesion, that which binds and Connects things to each other. I'm assuming this is why the lines that show allomancers sources of metal, or their Connection to them, are blue. The only other reference to color in Mistborn that I know of is that Ruin is black and Preservation is white. Is it possible that Ruin was directly involved in the creation of nightblood which is why nightblood turned black upon its creation? It's command is "destroy evil" and destruction is exactly ruin

I agree that Colour (what is Colour but Light like Stormlight?) and Music/Tone have clear Cosmeric importance, as does Metal. 

I wonder if Language/patterns do too, allá Sel, and Glyphs actually have power in themselves? I think every Cosmeric world gives us a glance at a fragment of whole picture of magic as well as its own unique systems, and we are always seeing new constants. 

As for Tien, I don't know but I think it's possible as we know he had a Spren attracted to him.

As for NB, we've had some hints that Ruin is vaguely involved, but I think NB borrows from all Investiture, made crossing several systems by Vasher et Al., and that he is his own unique thing that Shards can't predict. I think he is connected to black more as a Black Hole, the opposite of Light in general and thus the embodiment of anti-Investiture than as the colour Black connected to Ruin.

Interesting concept, though to really Compound he'd basically need a way of multiplying Investiture. We don't know enough about Heralds to know whether they could do that with their Honorblades: for others, using an Honorblade drains Stormlight dangerously quickly, but I think there are hints that it's not the case for the Herald attached to their specific Blade, who being Invested by Honor themselves might be able to access Stormlight direct from the source I guess, or even form their own.

In which case, I can see them being very dangerous, especially if they had a Nahel Bond and thus an inherent channel to Shadesmar 

43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

 

The problem with such groupings is that too many are plausible. About the only ones that would be clearly wrong are those putting Ruin and Preservation into different groups, aren't they?

 

True, but it's also the problem for ALL groupings. Not just all possible Shard groupings that we are basing on conjecture, nor even groups of other things like the groupings of Metals on Scadrial. All groupings are based on characteristics that were chosen when another set were available. All. Elements. Kingdoms of Living Things. 

There are lots of possibilities. Given Shards are defined by their Intent rather than anything else, that's what I think would make sense to group them. And Intent is intrinsically linked to Motivation, the way we make decisions and why, rather than relationship with physical laws which seem to be a think that cross Shards rather than define then, and I think more likely to be related to the Unintentioned Dawnshards

43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

 

You could just as well put Cultivation here.

You could but I wouldn't. I wouldn't say Cultivation was an endpoint at all 

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Why isn't Mercy here? Or Dominion?

Because I don't think they fit at all here, certainly not based on how I'd define either of those things.  But they could be. Whatever the groupings, if they exist, are, you won't find categories you couldn't argue a Shard should swap for another. 

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You might just as well put Odium here. Or Endowment for that matter.

Again, I think the distinction between those Intents is clear. You can disagree, but Odium as a ideal characteristic just doesn't make sense to me, and Endowment isn't a characteristic of being. It's a characteristic of action. 

Anyway, we'll find out eventually.

I like the patterning of Internal, External, Positive, Negative, Physical, Emotional, Cognitive, Temporal compared to Mistborn classifications, but we haven't yet seen that aspect of magic applicable across systems, so the fact that there are 16 Shards isn't enough to convince that the same categorisation works.

Though maybe it is, and it would be interesting to see how and which characteristics could be applied to say Radiant Orders. I theorised that Orders could have internal and externally focused pairs, based on interpretations of Honour. I wonder if there are obvious pairings based on Cognitive/Physical/Spiritual/Temporal (looks a hard sell to me) or Positive/Negative?

  15 minutes ago, mathiau said:

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Also F-Iron or A-steel + ettmetal break conservation of linear momentum, the flying bridge breaks the conservation of angular momentum and soul casters probably break the 2nd law. Anyway that's not what I meant. I meant that Cultivation, being the shard of nature, cannot have an intent so opposite to every natural laws.

 

Is Cultivation the Shard of Nature? Surely it's the Shard of guiding Nature, by the implication of its name. 

Nature without input from "outside" of it (though technically all things that occur are within Nature, surely?) Wouldn't be called Cultivated.

On 20/11/2020 at 2:30 AM, Karger said:

We now have 14 shards.  Grouping them in fours should now be possible.  Here are my groupings, subgroupings and why.  I though subgroupings would be useful.  I have them as positive or negative based on how I think a shard operates.  Note that Negative does not mean evil/dangerous.  Instead that axis refers to weather I think a shard is working too something or primarily against something.  I am also adding internal or external based on if I think the shard's power starts from within or without IE Cultivation pushes things to grow against their environment but Ruin breaks from the outside.  Members of the same group and subgroup are opposites as in allomancy.

THIS IS STILL A WORK IN PROGRESS.  I would like additional opinions whenever possible.

Change/Probability/Temporal Shards. 

• Ruin:  Rather obvious but nonetheless clearly belongs here.  Ruin is the shard of entropy.  Its power wants to increase the randomness of the universe avoiding order.  I am going to add the subgroups Negative External. 
• Preservation: Similarly wants the opposite.  Preservation is the shard of stasis.  It wants to make things happen in more static and orderly ways avoiding chaos.  I am going to add the subgroups Negative Internal. 
• Cultivation:  A shard of development according to natural rules.  Think evolution, learning, and growth.  Organisms who learn to take advantage of their surroundings based on predictable results.  I am going to add the subgroups Positive Internal.
• Wimsey:  This one might be a bit controversial but I personally see Wimsey as this temporal rather then emotional shard.  It also functions a lot as an anti Cultivation which is somewhat rational.  Wimsey is random but random in such a way that coincidences seem targeted.  You flip a coin 100 times and never get tails.  You bet your house on this new inexplicable fact of nature and get heads.  I am going to add the subgroups Positive External. 

Connection/Relation Shards

• Autonomy:  A shard of independence and mastery.  Wants things less connected and for existing connections to weaken.  I am going to add the subgroups Negative Internal. 
• Honor:  A shard of connection and promises.  Wants things to get steadily more connected and for those connections to get stronger.  I am going to add the subgroups Positive Internal. 
• Dominion:  A shard of ownership.  Wants for things to fall under an authority.  I am going to add the subgroups Negative External. 
• Devotion:  A shard of caring.  Wants to give authority to another.  I am going to add the subgroup Positives External. 

Desire/Emotion Shards

• Valor:  A shard of courage and acting against interest   Works to eliminate dangers and follow through on difficult missions.  I am going to add the subgroups Positive Internal.
• Mercy:  A shard of defense and reaction.  Works to eliminate cruelty or death.  I am going to add the subgroups Negative Internal.
• Ambition:  A shard of wants or desires.  Works to grab, take, or master.  I am going to add the subgroups Positive External.
• Odium:  A shard of hatred and emotion.  Works to topple all wrong or punish those who abuse what they have.  I am going to add the subgroups Negative External.

Interpretation/Creation Shards.

• Invention:  A shard of advantages and planing.  Wants to create things of interest or use.  I am going to add the subgroups Positive External.
• Endowment:  A shard of beautifying.  Wants to make a more vibrant, colorful, or interesting.  The shard that made our lives miserable.  I am going to add the subgroup Positive Internal.
• Speculative shard Prudence:  We know a little about a Wisdom shard.  I choose Prudence because I think it is a good ant-Invention.  I am going to add the subgroups Negative Internal.
• Speculative shard:  Correction.  A shard of elimination and judgement.  Adonalsium might believe that something is no longer serving its purpose and required alteration.  I am going to add the subgroups Negative External.

Metallic arts to make things interesting and also let me guess a few things about fabrails.  I decided to pair each shard to a metal based on its effects and then use that confection to figure out the rest of fabrails.  I spoilered for length as I think the wall of text was bad enough.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Temporal Metals.

• Gold: Cultivation.  Healing seeing your past and using it to inform you.  Gold in the Tower.  (Potentially) Possibly a spren equivalent of a metalmind.
• Bendalloy: Wimsey.  Giving you the time and calories to do the improbable.  (Potentially) Tells spren to act less characteristically.
• Cadmium: Preservation.  Keeps things the same a little longer.  (Potentially) Tells spren to maintain something(ie keep heat at this temperature).
• Electrum: Ruin.  It's a poor man's atium.  (Potentially) Tells spren to destroy something.

Enhancement metals

• Aluminum: Autonomy.  Purges the soul of everything else makes you more you.  Tells spren to ignore certain stimuli.
• Duralumin: Honor.  Connects the soul more strongly to other things.  (Potentially) Tells spren to respond more strongly to something.
• Nicrosil: Dominion.  Allows you to overpower others or master your abilities. (Potentially) allows spren to make other spren act a certain way(IE if two spren are somehow in communication.  You could have a more intelligent/obedient spren command those that are less so).
• Chromium: Devotion.  Gives others help.  (Potentially) Makes one spren try and imitate another

Physical

• Steel:  Odium.  Smashes against others.  Moves faster like an "angry" runner's high. Known to act as a repeller and flip polarities. 
• Pewter: Valor.  Strength.  Enough said.  Enhances fabrails.  COME ON SPREN!  GIVE ME 110%!
• Iron: Ambition.  Pulls toward you.  Makes deals with substance.  Fabrail is the same as pulling.
• Tin: Mercy.  Makes you feel everything more.  Fabrail makes the spren feel the thing more so they moderate by pulling back a bit.

Mental

• Bronze: Endowment.  Allows you to take in knew sensations.  Used to create alerters
• Copper:  Prudence.  Keeps you safe and makes sure you remember.  (Potentially) used for the same thing with spren.
• Zinc: Invention.  Pushes the limits comes through with new ideas.  Used to manifest spren more strongly.
• Brass: Correction.  Pulls back returns to the proper amount(heat).  Reverse zinc for spren.

I'd group them slightly differently but I agree with the broad concept.

I think they will be based on how Intent drives them.

Outcome Shards (Consequentialism): the end aims you wish to fulfil

Ruin, Autonomy, Preservation, Dominion

Instinct Shards:  underlying emotional/instinctual drives that motivate actions (existentialism)

Odium, Devotion, Whimsy, Ambition

"Journey" Shards (Deontology): how you go about fulfilling aims

Honor, Mercy, Cultivation, Endowment

Ideals/Virtues: the type of person you try to be, basing choices on a specific ideal (Virtue Ethics)

Valor, Prudence (or similar), Invention, suggested Shard of Honesty (based on the unaccounted for attributes of an Abrahamic God)

And they all get rough pairs as well.

16 minutes ago, Ishar said:

I think creating Nightblood probably involved rhythms and vacuums similar to creation of anti-light. 

The Anti-Light/Rhythm of Adonalsium?

Would explain the destruction of ALL Investiture...

21 minutes ago, Ishar said:

There's a couple. Here's one, and here's another.

I find this particularly interesting, especially when you look at what actually distinguishes shards, and how anti-lights are/were made. What distinguishes Shards mainly is intent. So the idea that you take a Shards light, isolate it from all sound/rhythms, then give it a different sound to change it to anti-light implies that intent is held in sound/rhythms, and that investiture holds intent by holding sounds/rhythms. I am pretty sure that if this were the case, it would open a very large can of worms about intent in the Cosmere. This makes me wonder if sound/rhythms were used in the process of creating Nightblood.

Edit: I just found a thread that appears to be exactly about the larger role of Rhythms and Identity in the Cosmere, but it contains Dawnshard spoilers, and as I have yet to read Dawnshard, I am not going to be looking at that thread yet.

Strongly implies that they are all paired though with his choice of phrasing...

On 09/12/2020 at 11:31 PM, StanLemon said:

WoB also says that Bronze can be used to hear Rhythms

 

Can we ask him if Surges produce pulses like burning metals does?

Also, on Warbreaker, a quick search of Rhythm comes up with little but tones:

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Another precaution. In order to Awaken, the man would need three things: Breath, color, and a Command. The harmonics and the hues, some called it. The Iridescent Tones, the relationship between color and sound. A Command had to be spoken clearly and firmly in the Awakener’s native language—any stuttering, any mispronunciation, would invalidate the Awakening. The Breath would be drawn out, but the object would be unable to act.

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“Keep your part of the bargain,” Vahr said. Vasher noted the tones in his voice, the beauty of each one, how close they were to harmonics. Vasher had gained perfect pitch. A gift for anyone who reached the Second Heightening. It would be good to have that again.

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And there a lot of musical references and linking of Awakening and Breaths to music, and of course the Iridescent Tones themselves are both a reference to colour and music.

I think there's evidence

Edit: Also, I just realised, what is Colour if not Light, and thus a link with the concept of Shardlight from Stormlight Archive too? 

11 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Because Honor was raving about the Dawnshards and that the Radiants would destroy the planet before he died

I presumed that was because 1) a Dawnshard was used to Splinter him (strong implications of this I think) and 2) that meant he could no longer, as the epitome of rules, set the boundaries and rules that kept the Surges under control. 

18 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

They were afraid of destroying the world as they did with their previous one, which I believe was mostly because of the Dawnshard and not just the surges.

Why do we think the Dawnshard was related? What have I missed?

16 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

It’s confirmed on the wiki that nightblood was not originally a Hemalurgic spike or metalmind. So I think the big mystery on why nightblood is nightblood will go unsolved until we learn about a new magical mechanic.

I think NB is NB for unique reasons that we already have the mechanics for: he's hyperinvested with Endowment's Investiture, copying a Sprenblade but with enough energy to manifest his own Intent which was given in a very vague way. He's already cross-system and essentially a mini-Shard in terms of how much Investiture he has, and with that powerful Intent/Command he, like a Shard, effectively changes the Universe and creates his own magic to follow his Intent. 

Of course, we'll get the finer details in Nightblood where I think we are gonna see Azure's Blade made.

And whether he was designed to be a Spike or not, he probably is one, based on pure mechanics, just as Vin's earring was one and the Spike in Zane too.

1 minute ago, Knight of Iron said:

I don’t have time to look for it now, but I believe there is a WoB that not all the Shards are opposite each other.

However, he did say that it was possible for Adonalsium in 16 completely different pieces than they did, which could imply even if there isn’t an opposite, that one isn’t possible. Hence brand new anti light

Fair enough.

Still, with Rhythms and Light, do you think you could artificially create (if you knew, say, Devotion's Rhythm from careful listening on Sel) a non-Rosharan Shard's Investiture on Roshar or elsewhere and hence use AonDor off Sel? That would be a game changer. We know you can use the Allomatic applications of Godmetals off Scadrial, and on Scadrial without the Shard themselves being present. 

6 minutes ago, Knight of Iron said:

Now, this is interesting. Harmonium itself is incredibly explosive due to this reason, I think. Does this mean that... anti-Investiture is not necessarily a new type of Investiture, but merely an opposite Investiture. And so Ruin and Preseervation directly annihilate one another? They are both anti-Investitures to each other?

So, if the (very possible though I don't really like it - I prefer 4 groups by Type of Intent) theory that every Shard has its opposite is true, then this means they've played, with say AntiVoidlight, the Rhythm and made the Light of, say Devotion... (My proposed opposite to Odium)

Could that be used to tap magic systems like the AonDor on Roshar?

Surely if NB is a steel sword and it's used to stab someone it is a Steel Spike, and as it draws investiture, surely it inherently is very effective at Haematurgy?

Trouble is, nobody would survive being stabbed with that Spike. 

But it doesn't need to stab someone WITH Haematurgy. It stabbing someone in the appropriate manner IS Haematurgy. 

Just as all Shards seem to produce Godmetals, I'm sure they all have Godrhythms too. 

I like this line of reasoning. Surely the Well of Ascension's Beat that Vin heard is Preservation's Rhythm? Maybe, as Bronze can pick up the difference in Allomatic Metals being burned, it can also be used to distinguish between different Surges being used? And Copperclouds can stop you doing that, and block Listeners/Fused from listening to the Rhythms on Roshar?

1 hour ago, Coboney said:

Alternatively, he'll punch Sazed twice for having two shards.

Technically he's punched both those Shards, hasn't he? So if it's the Shards he's going for, Saze is a waste of time.

Does this mean Kel is gonna try to piece Ambition, Devotion, Honor and Dominion together so he can punch a Bearer in the face?

It's heavily implied there are NO Fused who use Adhesion, only 9 Fused and 9 Unmade etc. I think Adhesion is unique to Honour and there is no equivalent for Cultivation (Lift uses Lifelight for Progression, hence it works in the Tower, and Stormlight for Abrasion, that's the theory in and out of Universe anyway) or Odium. Odium's number of power is 9, not 10.

However, if there WERE an Odium Specific Surge, the logic would be that it is one we don't know about. Adhesion can't be used except through Honor. So Odium's Surge, based on the same principles, can't be used except via Odium and thus isn't a Radiant Surge 

What's she gonna do with NB? There's a very high chance she, and most of the people who could do it for her, can't be near NB without killing themselves on it. And it's in the hands of a very skilled warrior who, most importantly, has NB

2 hours ago, artifabrian longshadow said:

A Fused touched by someone burning nicrosil would most likely just burn through their Voidlight resources. I doubt anything else would happen, since we do know that Fused often run out of Voidlight.

A nicrosil caging would probably burn through all Investiture stored in the person affected by the fabrial? The dagger could have a nicrosil caging in order to drain the spren or person in it of Investiture. Since nicrosil is an external enhancement metal, it should work externally I'd say

Wouldn't that stuff be more Chromium?

55 minutes ago, FrostiiBeren said:

@mathiau I didn't even think of that! Very good point. There's so much we don't know about hemalurgy I need more cosmere books asap. 

It would be strange for Raboniel to lie about a metal that Navani has never heard of but obviously Navani could learn more from Hoid/worldhoppers.

Isn't the lie more that the metal is unimportant?