IndigoAjah

If we had to guess a language for Thaidakar to come from (and it sounds like a title to me), what do we think it would be?

Throughout the Wax and Wayne Era we've seen how Wax is a reflection, in some ways a shadow of sorts, of Vin. Without going into too much detail, the similarities but also deliberate differences are there.

Both serve both Preservation and Ruin (though the roles they play in their link of a sort to both is important). They are rare in speaking to Ruin/Harmony through their mino-spikes. They are designed killing machines, who act to help others. And in terms of contrasts, we see after some conflict with the idea of their "role", Vin embraces it much earlier than Wax, if anything becomes too involved in the idea of being the hero whereas Wax is too reticent. At first. 

But the fundamental difference between them, the one that defines their characters and roles to Harmony, is wonderfully highlighted in this book in one scene. 

In The Well of Ascension, Vin storms a Tower with her perceived enemy at the top. It's a distraction or trap of sorts, but she realises this only later. She starts in a fury, avenging an attack on the man she loves, with whom her complex and currently fraught relationship has driven to a rash act, and kills paid soldiers (who are here for their jobs rather than ideological opposition to her) with skill, ease, and some contemptuous pleasure of sorts. However, as the sickening ease with which she clears the entire Tower and ends lives becomes clearer to the reader, we end up with her realising the horror and maybe even evil of what she's done, after us, at the end. She doesn't kill her "enemy" at the end, despite her companion, who embodies Ruin in a way, urging her on. She realises that it's not who she is at her core, despite her identity at this point being wrapped up, for many reasons, with the idea of being a "weapon", a "tool" for Elend, doing evil in a good cause. She has to confront the fallacy of this for the first time, ending all those lives but refusing to take the last one, embracing the Preservation in her. In the end, despite everything she thinks of herself, she's far more Preservation than Ruin.

For me that Tower is THE defining moment in Vin's character arc. There are other big ones and it's nowhere near the end, but it's the one that highlights that who she is, is different to who she thinks she is and others are trying to make her think she is. It's truly her nadir but one that triggers so much growth and insight. That bit of her arc is one reason I will always think WoA is underrated.

In the Lost Metal, we get a superficially similar set up. Wax storms a Tower, frighteningly efficiently, with a companion, with his foe at the top but discovers afterward that it was a trick, a diversion. 

But the way the scene is told, and the feelings and realisation of the PoV character, are inverted. Wax becomes more into it as he progresses. Wayne has to stop him from final killing that he's prepared to do at the end. His realisation is the acceptance that's he is Harmony's sword, that he is what Vin thought she was, a tool who kills to make the world better. Not just that, but it's a huge part of him that he denied about himself even earlier in this Book. 

I just thought this was a beautiful bit of writing that really showed us the heart of our two lead characters, and some of Brandon's best and least in your face writing 

Do we know what the Shard responsible for Aether Investiture is? (If any, given we are told the Aethers predate the Shattering)

Because if it's Autonomy it makes sense that you'd see similarities across those magic systems 

Chromium grenades would be a scary weapon to face

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Unfortunately it would. One Rosharan, who might be short for a Rosharan, in a group would not be overly odd. Eight people with alien facial features and most over 2m tall in a group? You might just as well wearing a sign claiming to be foreign. Steris is not stupid.

 

Isn't she also not a person-focussed person, unless she's actively trying to be?

My experience with both myself and other people on the autistic spectrum is that it's a relatively common trait to not pick up social cues but also notice personal differences when something else is there to focus attention on.

Radiants glow presumably because they are using Stormlight, which obviously glows.

Radiants using another source of Investiture probably wouldn't glow imo.

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I'm not so sure they're so different they have the same ideal, goals and methods. 

One of them encourages members to kill each other for advantage, not share any information, is highly hierarchical and yet seems to aim to encourage members along selfish, power gaining, individualistic aims. It reads, essentially exactly, like the Set to the degree where I even wonder if the Set has infiltrated them, almost a perfect organisation for Autonomy.

The other says members shouldn't hurt each other, should share all their secrets (things that both actively do not happen with Shallan), has a much flatter seeming hierarchy, is about achieving an altruistic, specific aim and is directly opposed to Autonomy...

They seem to me to be diametrically opposed to each other.

One of the exciting things about this book, which doesn't have an immediate sequel (though obviously characters might appear in the more Cosmere-open, chronologically close SA6, and there is a sequel trilogy planned, and of course the potential for novellas), is how many important seeming foundations it lays. 

Some of which can have Cosmere-wide implications.

These include:

The Lost Metal. The return of either Atium or Lerasium, both reintroduced here, is hinted at being very important.

The return of The Bands of Mourning (and how they were drained). This is a mystery that is intentionally and openly left unaddressed, but given the set up around the conflict with the South and the story of the Bands, it surely must come to something in the future. 

The Ghostblood discrepancies. The organisation seen revealed to Marasi here was almost the polar opposite of what we saw from Shallan's PoV in Roshar. Different relationships, aims, ideals, someone is playing someone else here and the question is who?

Hints of Discord. Harmony's dark future is hinted at so much that it's almost explicit, as is his intent to actively set out in the Cosmos against Autonomy. 

Where do you think we'll see these threads land? And what other ones can you spot?

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

And Wax.

And why bother lying if the first person to do it(Marsh) will find the Lerasium anyway?

Not even Wax.

It's also what he tells Wayne and he's dead so not much point in lying to him 

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1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Marsh isn't looking for Lerasium.  

 

And that will change the outcome?

 

Proceedure on its own is enough. Raboniel didn't know what Navani's plate would do, but it ejected Voidlight all the same.

 

Raboniel thought mixing stormlight and voidlight would cause them to destroy each other. That didn't happen. 

 

Intent is powerful, but not enough that a mere question about whether or not something will happen will change the outcome. 

 

It won't necessarily not change the outcome.

Evidently other people have also tried to make Lerasium in this way and failed, explicitly the Set, so unless Marsh can follow the EXACT procedure Wax used, he will still likely fail.

And we saw in this book other examples of where Intent inherently affects the outcome of process. 

However, I don't think Saze was lying, at least about his inability to replicate Lerasium so far. That doesn't mean he won't manage, as the title of the book implies that either Atium or Lerasium is more significant than the immediate resolution of the story lets on.

To be fair, a lot of that stuff with Saze and the GBs being at odds etc sounds like it was the status quo before any of this conflict had started.

Saze THINKS Trellium is wrong 

AThis is the big question that it's clear to me Sanderson is making us ask.

The difference was so clear and highlighted in the text

On 16/11/2022 at 11:00 PM, TheoreticalMagic said:

Well, not necessarily. Given that Brandon has always held that Kelsier's NEVER been 'a good guy' per se, but was able to be a hero in the first Mistborn era because it was all relative to the Lord Ruler, and Kelsier's worst instincts/aspects were able to be channeled into a genuinely righteous cause by virtue of being all about opposing the Lord Ruler.....

And given the blatant hints that Sazed is becoming less about Harmony and verging more towards becoming Discord, and that there's even a possibility that Discord is a problem that will have to be faced in some way in Era 3....

I could see it being a VERY Sanderson-esque twist if it turns out that Kelsier IS slated to become a major antagonist to Sazed himself, which is something Sazed has long seen or sensed with his future sight, hence his wariness around him and lies to him.....

BUT the twist being their antagonism comes in the form of Kelsier once again being drafted as a necessary evil/the hero Scadrial needs, in order to oppose a Discord-ized Sazed should the latter succumb to his worst aspects in future books.

I'm pretty sure we'll see Scadrial as the battleground once again between two ominous, villainous but not really outright evil and to some degree well intentioned, opposite forces. Discord and Thaidakkar. 

And both will see innocents lost as collateral 

Throughout the book, even when it's made clear to the characters (and us) that Trell is an aspect at least of Autonomy, we see the associated God Metal referred to as Trellium.

This feels deliberate to me. Even Telsin uses that word. So is Trellium different to Bavadium, in concept?

Now, I'm not sure we know exactly how Autonomy's multi-avatar approach works. We know some are representatives like Telsin invested with her power, and some are aspects of her, small pieces of her power which sound like Splinters. But the idea of Autonomy as a whole... Is that the consciousness of the main collection of her power that hasn't broken off yet? Or is there a collective goal and consciousness across Avatars, and if so do the ones that are pieces of her have their own unique consciousness or not?

To what degree is Trell autonomous from Autonomy? Harmonium can, it's implied, be split into Atium and Lerasium but exists in its own right. Can Bavadium be split beyond the level of individual Shards, into Avatarmetals, and so is Trellium different to what true Bavadium, or another Avatarmetal of Autonomy, might be?

On 07/11/2022 at 11:02 PM, Ixthos said:

It depends. I think, if Trell is invested in Scadrial, and isn't planning to commit - or was designed to be a suicide weapon - it likely would survive the planet's destruction, though possibly weakened. Though I don't think Trell is invested in Scadrial, but has hacked hemalurgy somehow, possibly due to incorporating some of Ruin into itself - if trellium contains traces of atium, that might explain how its spikes can function if it isn't invested in the planet, and if Trell is invested in the planet, that implies there is a fourth Metallic Art.

It's possible, based on conjecture about who Trell might be, that Trell has more than one personal embodiment/ "corporal" form, and as the Harmonium splitting doesn't seem to rely on equal amounts Trellium and Harmonium, that Trell could split/explode Harmony using just a distinct aspect of his power. 

That way he could destroy/split Harmony without it being a true suicide attack as most of him would survive 

The question isn't whether this obvious fake is the real Stormfather or not

It's whether the fake is Odium, an Unmade or Ishtar, or a new third party

Personally I think any Dawnshard Command (an Action essentially) can be utilised by any Shard Intent (but to fully realise their power requires the Intent and expanded mind of a Shard - we know it probably works without one though, unless Adonalsium was induced to use them on itself).

The end result of these combinations will be variable though, and some Shards will struggle to get a lot out of certain Commands.

Change, the only conformed Command, can vary a lot depending on Intent.. Preservation would be pretty limited, but you can Change something to Preserve it in the long term. Ruin, Endowment, Dominion, Cultivation - these would all have obviously different Colours to the type of Change they would implement, but as mentioned above, almost every Shard's Intent revolves around Change in some way.

That Universal nature of a Command, applicable across Shards and all life rather than just one Group, seems most key to identify further Dawnshards.

I quite like Survive as one too, as it's fundamental to Physics (conservation) and Life (the instinct that drives life), just as Change is (Entropy and Evolution). Procreate/multiply another?

13 hours ago, Lotus said:

I think that Wisdom is too close to Invention, personality. Prudence or misery is my guess

You can probably combine the two ideas actually.

If you go with the psychological/philosophical concept of Angst.

Or, for a word that's less connected with whiny teens these days (rightly or wrongly), Worry. 

Despair sounds a bit too similar to The Endless, of which I'm sure Brandon is aware and probably wants some separation from given both groups are eternal, transcendent entities anthropomorphising aspects of consciousness

If Intents are linked to Commands inherently though, then I'd strongly suggest one Command will be Survive. 

It's been hinted at in text (Kel's use of it in a semi-divine manner at various points, and now that has cross-Cosmeric importance) and in WoB (a Shard specifically noted to having an Intent linked to Survival) and it fits the scope of the Command known so far.

I wonder if Dawnshards can invert their Commands somehow, and if inverted Unity is what allows for Splintering? 

I'm still not convinced that Dawnshards, which act whereas Shards are, align to Shards in neat groups like this at all.

I think they explore an entirely different aspect of divinity that can or cannot in any individual case link up with a specific Intent but less prescriptively than this, and that the "verbs" they represent are things that should be inapplicable to God and that's how the combined use of them broke Adonalsium. Remember, they precede the Shards and their Intents as separate entities, probably.

1) pretty sure it's "Prudence" or similar to Prudence. That one Shard had an intent like this was confirmed, no Shard so far seems to fit that closely at all, there's only one left, etc. 

Plus wisdom and omniscience are key attributes of God in every major religious dogma, which seem to strongly  inspire the Intents of Adonalsium.

I like Prudence, makes me imagine the Shard as a 70 year old lady drinking chamomile tea

2) there's no confirmation that, and I think reasonable suggestion against it, Shards are all paired with exact opposites.  Soft opposites maybe, but the Intents we have seen are too complex to have exact opposites in most cases. 

On 14/03/2022 at 5:36 AM, Oltux72 said:

• The Evil made them evavuate the main continent
• Nazh knows the rituals to become a Shadow abd he calls Kelsir a Shadow, not a Shade. People in Silence's time so not.
• Nazh cannot describe the Evil. He did not operate under the Evil.

We'd know. Shardbearers and some Radiants were surely rich. As are the Returned. And the Fused are elite. Of they have a problem with fine cutlery oe jewelery we'd know. If defeating a Fused were as easy as stabbing them with a silver dinner knife, that would have been discovered.

 

Well, that rather depends on silver being existent or seen the same way as it is in our world.

Do we have any insight into the day to day use or value of silver on Roshar? 

Interestingly Silver must have some properties of interest on Scadrial:. 

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Kenzal

 

Would it make an Allomancer sick if they tried to burn pure silver?

 

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

As it stands right now, nothing would happen, because they would know if it did. Good question. Silver has some weird properties, but on Scadrial they are largely undiscovered.

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, PurpurPhönix said:

The name hasn't been confirmed, only that the name is similar to Wisdom/Prudence. I also don't think it's confirmed that that shard is the survival shard, although it would make sense

I say we know because the Survival Shard doesn't fit any of the others

Prudence I think, we know it's teh Survival Shard (Virtuosity doesn't seem to fit)

4 hours ago, phraps said:

The Shard is Virtuosity, not Virtue - Virtuosity means being especially skilled in the arts.

I mentioned this on another post, I believe Painter and Yumi are on different planets in the same system. They're definitely in the Physical Realm, given the scene with Design.

 

I think the key is "natural" skill. So I presume the Shard's intent is around nature with no nurture